Only Microsoft
Marco:
So I went and cleared out everything that was obviously outdated.
Marco:
We had, of course, like bullet points on speculation about what TV kit might be and rumors of the new Apple TV remote.
Marco:
We should talk about that.
Marco:
We get those predictions right.
Casey:
In the realm of follow-up, we have more follow-up about the TiVo that neither Marco nor I cares about.
John:
Oh, you care.
John:
You need to care.
John:
Actually, there's one item about the TiVo that's not in the follow-up that I want to briefly mention.
John:
So since last week, I think more people have either followed our links to the TiVo Bolts or seen people tweeting about it or, you know, it's made the rounds in the tech news sites and stuff.
John:
And people have looked at it and listened to my comments about how
John:
i can't believe that they made a thing that you can't stack something on top of and a lot of people have responded with other tv connected devices that are unstackable in various ways one of the ones that came up a lot was the boxy box do you guys remember that i do uh it basically looked like a cube tilted on its corner and then like set down into the table so that like it's sort of a cube on an angle but it wasn't actually a cube they chopped off part of it anyway it's clearly nothing can go on top of it because
John:
If it was a cube just resting normally on the table, it would work fine, but it's tilted, and then the corners are chopped off, and that's ridiculous.
John:
The reason I think the TiVo bolt is worse than the boxy box and those other things is that the TiVo bolt, like I said on the show, it's like thumbing its nose at you.
John:
It's so close to being just a flat box, but they said, you know what?
John:
Eh.
John:
screw you we're bending it like it's not it's not a you know because the boxy box i give it a pass like oh they're making a little piece of art it's like a sculpture it's like it's not even close to like it is clearly never going to be something you can stack also it's not wider in the boxy box is a plain old normal proportion box that you put under a tv in terms of like it's around the size of a regular tivo it's around the size of like a blu-ray player or a game console or anything like that it's exactly flat on all sides and then they just bent it and that i feel it's just it's just the worst
John:
Yeah, and one other item is not here.
John:
People have already started opening the thing up and figuring out if they can upgrade the little 2.5-inch drive to whatever the max capacity 2.5-inch drives they have, and apparently that's successful.
John:
So if people are buying this, even though, again, this is not the high-end TiVo, and the TiVo folks themselves have had a series of Q&As and stuff where they've reemphasized.
John:
Not that, you know, this wasn't a question, like we said in the last show.
John:
This is not the Pro product.
John:
They still sell a Pro product that has more features and more storage and more tuners and everything.
John:
uh and they said don't worry you know eventually we will come out with the pro model whether the pro model will also be bent will it even be called the bolt we don't know they just basically said uh this product is not for you people who want the highest end evo uh this is and they were pretty candid i wish i could find this q a
John:
I go, did we link it last week?
John:
Maybe we didn't.
John:
Anyway, the guy who was talking was from TiVo was basically saying, look, he's talking to a bunch of very enthusiastic TiVo fans.
John:
Look, he's saying, I know you guys don't want this because it doesn't have lots of storage and it's not big and fancy and has fewer tuners.
John:
And it's like basically a downgrade from the one you have now.
John:
This is not for you.
John:
But basically, if we just continue to make products for you, we would go out of business.
John:
We need to make a low end product that is distinctive and appealing.
John:
It was also basically defending the crazy shape.
John:
Saying, that's what we have to do to stay in business.
John:
We have to find a way to sell something to people who otherwise wouldn't buy TiVo.
John:
There are not enough people like me who want the high-end TiVo to keep us in business.
John:
And I think he said something like they got 150,000 new customers last year, as in people who hadn't previously owned TiVos, like new TiVo customers.
John:
And that's just not enough.
John:
So what they're trying to do...
John:
is make a cheap product that will stand out that people will notice it they're like oh it's that crazy bent thing that's white i mean i don't know if that's noticing in a good way or a bad way but hey it's noticing uh and have it be an actual good product like have features have interesting features be faster be more responsive all that good stuff have the you know the automatic commercial skipping and everything so
John:
This is one of their many ploys to stay in business.
John:
It's sad that the high-end customers can't sustain them as a company.
John:
I'm not quite sure what their expenses are.
John:
It's not like they're Netflix for their licensing content or something.
John:
They're just making basically a little computer that you attach to your TV.
John:
And making hardware is easy.
John:
Well, it's not the same as like, what is your burn rate?
John:
Like how many employees do you need?
John:
And especially if you've been doing it for many, many years, I guess just 150,000 is just not enough sales and you just need to sell more of them.
John:
So I want TiVo to stay in business.
John:
So I guess everyone should wait for them to come out with the high end TiVo and then buy the most expensive one and then throw it in the garbage.
John:
You know, whatever.
John:
I want them to stay in business.
John:
So anyway, the actual follow up that was in here is the question from last week.
John:
What what kind of TiVo bolt features could possibly come through a software update to existing TiVo owners to the Romeo models, which is the old high end one?
John:
And someone from TiVo, this is at TiVo Design on Twitter, said quick mode, which is a thing that's like smart speed where you watch 30% faster, and channel logos in the guide are two items that are coming through a software update.
John:
Not mentioned is the thing that skips commercials, which is totally technically possible to bring to the other ones.
John:
Quick mode was the one I had a question about, and apparently that's coming.
John:
They didn't mention the commercial skipping, and that could just be like, oh, we're going to save that for the other models to make you upgrade, which...
John:
whatever i'm fine i'll you know if they come out with the new high and tivo i will probably buy it history has shown that i will probably buy it so i think that's it for the bolt
Casey:
We should note that Jeremy Clarkson has tweeted today, which in and of itself is unremarkable, but he has tweeted, with a skeleton crew filming for Amazon Prime's new motoring program, spelled incorrectly, has begun.
Casey:
And it has a shot of, what are these cars?
Casey:
This is a LaFerrari, a McLaren... P1.
Casey:
Thank you.
Casey:
The P1 and whatever the Ferrari du jour of the hour is.
John:
No, it's a Porsche.
John:
It's the 918...
John:
oh that's the oh that's the 1918 oh it looks like come on come on you've been away from the show you can't even identify this is as i tweeted this is the when are they going to get to the fireworks factory because in the last in the sad last season of top gear they were like oh finally when the la ferrari comes out we're going to test it we're going to test all these these uh you know hybrid supercars or whatever are they all hybrid i forget if the p1 is hybrid maybe not
John:
anyway we're gonna test all these top-end supercars against each other uh because they tested the 918 on its own they tested the p1 on its own and a lot of ferrari came out and they tested it on its own and like now we're gonna have these guys do a shootout and like the very last episode where they were all together like oh the manufacturers wouldn't let us race them against each other so sorry guys uh we're working on it but right now they're all big babies because they're all afraid their car's gonna lose so they don't want them to race each other we're trying to work something out and
John:
And eventually it's like, hey, we've worked something out.
John:
They've all agreed to race under whatever conditions.
John:
And then Clarkson went and punched somebody and the show was over.
John:
That's a pretty good summary.
John:
So I was like, when are they going to get to the fireworks factory?
John:
They kept teasing.
John:
I want to see that showdown between those three cars.
John:
That's exactly what I want to see.
John:
So I am super excited that this Amazon show, the first picture they show is, guess what?
John:
We got those three cars.
John:
Presumably we're going to race them against each other.
Casey:
The other follow-up we had is this big kerfuffle that's been going around, particularly as we record on Wednesday, with regard to battery life for the two different A9s.
Casey:
Apparently, both Samsung and TSMC—what does that stand for?
Casey:
Taiwan Semi—
Casey:
So, Marco, you were talking about this earlier today.
Casey:
Would you like to fill us in on some of the details?
Marco:
Unfortunately, we don't know a lot yet.
Marco:
It might not be a story, but it might be a story.
Marco:
At the time we record this on Wednesday night, it's way too early to say whether there's anything here or whether this is just a couple of people getting weird test results.
Marco:
The gist of it is, so we know for sure that the A9 chip in the iPhone 6, as you mentioned, is being fab by two companies, TSMC and Samsung.
Marco:
And they have two different manufacturing processes at those two companies.
Marco:
um the samsung one is actually the smaller feature size that samsung is 14 nanometer tsmc is 16 so you normally you would expect the smaller feature size one being samsung to have better battery life because it uses less power well not in the days of leakage current dominating because now it's not like that used to be true but then once the leakage current became a thing it kind of kept long because what people would do is like oh i can't even make like a 22 nanometer chip until i solve
John:
this leakage current problem so they would solve it by using like high k dielectric or whatever you know things that they're doing and then it would shrink and you would get lower power and it's like yay everything's following along but really the only reason you got less power is because they figured out the leakage thing and so as we get small and small it's like oh we got that problem again we got all this leakage how what are we going to do so you're right that in the old thinking in like the
John:
you know 45 nanometer 65 nanometer thinking shrinking is better but now the sizes right now shrinking is not necessarily better unless you know the intimate details of the geometry and materials of their actual transistors right so anyway um the gist is there's a couple of people and again the test size here is really small
Marco:
But there's a couple of people who are getting results that indicate that the TSMC manufactured one, which is actually the larger feature size, but as John just explained, it doesn't really matter as much anymore.
Marco:
Basically, the TSMC manufactured A9s are yielding substantially better battery life than the Samsung ones.
Marco:
The test so far suggests that it might be as much as like 20-25% more battery life.
John:
Well, do you know, let's put a qualifier on that because here's my first question about these things.
John:
are they yielding better battery life or are they yielding better geek bench battery scores?
John:
Because I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't something about the geek bench battery test that behaves differently on one thing than the other.
John:
Like, you know, like if this is our only metric, like you said, it's a small number of people.
John:
It's like, you know, a few dozen people.
John:
And if they're all running the geek bench battery test, uh,
John:
I don't know what else you do to test battery life.
John:
Like, you need to have to do something.
John:
You can't just have anecdotal, like, I used my phone for a day and it seemed like it was slower.
John:
But if they're all using the same test and it's a low number, I don't know yet.
John:
Like, I'm trying to think of, like, what could it be about the Geekbench test that would care who manufactured the CPU?
John:
Are they different in ways other than...
John:
the size of the features and the materials and geometry of the individual transistors are they different in like if we were to look at the layout of the chips are they different in that way too maybe they are and like do they have different instructions they have different cache sizes is you know i don't we don't know anything about them so there's too many questions here but uh the most compelling thing i think we have is that thing that who is it that tweeted this uh john pool tweeted graphs of the geekbench scores for the different phones um
John:
And it's not labeled which ones have which CPU, but you can see two humps in the iPhone 6S one and one hump in the iPhone 6 one.
John:
Of course, the iPhone 6 one has a tremendous number of trials.
John:
Right.
John:
It was something like 20 or 30 times as many.
John:
Right.
John:
But still, with the small number of trials, it clearly shows two humps instead of one.
John:
So in the coming days and weeks, we'll figure this out.
Marco:
yeah i'm really curious to see and and you can tell which one you have uh there's a there's an app called liram info light put in the show notes um if you launch this it's this you know it's obviously made to dump a bunch of technical info uh the um it shows the model number on the first screen and for the 6s it um it's n71 ap and then if you have the the quote good one it's n71 m ap there's a little lowercase m in the middle model number
Marco:
uh that is the tsmc one and that's the one that if this is true that's the one you want to have um that's the one i have i'm very happy about that um i have not been using it long enough to really say whether i'm noticing extra battery life it seems yeah roughly the same to me but i don't know i haven't i haven't really been running it down a lot um during this usage i i keep charging it during the day so i don't know um casey did you check yours i did how'd you do
Casey:
I have the No Bueno one.
John:
Oh, the No M. It's kind of like dead pixels.
John:
Maybe you should just not look.
Casey:
Yeah.
John:
Because basically, you think, like, am I dissatisfied with the battery life?
John:
If I'm not dissatisfied, then just don't look.
John:
But it's too late.
Casey:
It's too late you looked.
Casey:
Whatever.
Casey:
Meh.
Casey:
Right.
Casey:
It seems to be fine.
Casey:
It doesn't seem particularly different than the last phone.
Casey:
as with every iphone i've ever owned i wish it did better i wish i had a few more millimeters of battery somewhere in there as we've talked about to death but that's still how i feel it's thinner um but man it's so thin and so bendy wait what um so anyway so point being um i do have the quote unquote bad one i did not check aaron's phone um i have no reason to believe that it would be any different other than you know just complete luck um
Casey:
But again, I've not seen any difference in battery life from the 6 to the 6S, and so I'm not too worked up about it.
Marco:
It is kind of unfortunate.
Marco:
I'm assuming that they probably just couldn't get enough to make them all the TSMC chip.
Marco:
I imagine that's probably a volume and yield issue.
Marco:
You know, you can look at it either as your phone gets worse battery life than 40% of them out there, or you get a bonus if you have the other one.
Marco:
You know, I don't know.
Casey:
What I don't understand is, I mean, last I checked, I know these phones are doing a lot of background processing on various and sundry things.
Casey:
However, 99% of the time, these CPUs are sitting damn near idle, are they not?
Casey:
So what is it that's making that much of a difference?
Casey:
Like, good grief, that's a big difference.
Casey:
And it just seems weird to me.
John:
Well, what's the big difference?
John:
Because I've seen the reports like, oh, you get two hours different battery life, but where are they getting that number from?
John:
The only numbers I've seen are these ones with this benchmark, and the benchmark scores are like, you know, 2,000 to 3,500.
John:
I don't know what those numbers mean.
John:
It's just an arbitrary number.
John:
They're not number of seconds or times or hours.
Marco:
No, there was a time test on... I think it was the Engadget post republished it from wherever it originated.
Marco:
There was a time-based test, and it was like seven hours versus five hours or something like that.
Marco:
And I assume it's some kind of like...
Marco:
It's probably some kind of like, you know, max out the CPU to run it down as quickly as you can kind of test.
John:
Yeah, I don't know how representative that is of what you're going to actually do with the phone.
Marco:
Right, exactly.
Marco:
So again, this is probably a non-story.
Marco:
We probably shouldn't have even talked about it for this long, but it's worth monitoring the story.
John:
Well, I mean, it's, you know, we know they're using two different parts, and there is precedent, as many people tweeted, for Apple using different parts from different manufacturers, and one of them being the good one, as Marco knows, for someone who got... Didn't you originally have the MacBook Pro with the bad screen?
Marco:
Yeah, I had, like, the... I think it was the LG instead of the Samsung or one of those.
Marco:
Whatever panel you didn't want in the Retina MacBook Pro, that's the one I had.
John:
But anyway, I think it will probably be fine as long as, like Marco said, as long as the bad chip...
John:
gets uh you know and i'm sure apple made sure of this like as long as the bad chip fulfills the uh the criteria that they put on the product page oh you get about this number of hours doing this about this numbers now and they have you know i'm sure there's some little tiny asterisk gonna say here's what we use to determine those numbers and if someone does some class action lawsuit about it apple's gonna say look the bad phones get these numbers the good ones get even wetter getting better numbers congratulations you're lucky like i'm sure they're covering their bases by doing that
John:
Hope so.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
Let's see.
Casey:
Any other follow-up worth talking about?
Casey:
I don't think there is.
Marco:
I did want to quickly mention this awesome artwork that we got today.
Marco:
Ah, yes.
Marco:
I completely forgot.
Marco:
Thank you.
Marco:
This is fantastic.
Marco:
This is... I'm going to attempt your name here.
Marco:
This is by Mindogas Rudokas, and it is...
Marco:
awesome so he he drew he illustrated um this artwork called business as usual atp and it's just it's like a comic style three frames uh one of john one of casey and one of me as we do the podcast like from the back and the the level of of like reference details in here like this is amazing it's here i'll put the link in in chat here
Marco:
There are so many little references and details that he got exactly right.
Marco:
It shows John's screen with a ton of windows, Casey with a giant glass of water next to his MacBook Air.
Marco:
It's just me and my red office with all the fractures, including the half-fallen-off, half-broken-piece fracture.
Casey:
And the pile of microphones with sale written on it.
Marco:
And there's so many little details in each of these that are correct.
Casey:
uh it even got like our keyboard types i mean it's really it's really quite something yeah it really is i have a glass desk which is exactly what i have um i although i am using what looks to be the shore sm7b which i haven't used in a while um and it does it looks to me as though you're using xcode like yeah vaguely that's xcode yeah
Casey:
And it's just magnificent.
Casey:
Everything about this is wonderful.
Casey:
Um, I, I saw this and this was completely unsolicited, like none of, or at least I didn't, I didn't think you guys had any idea this was coming.
Casey:
It just kind of showed up all of a sudden and it is magnificent.
Casey:
So, uh, like Marco said, we'll put this in the show notes and, um,
Marco:
And I asked him for a high-res version that wasn't crushed by Twitter's terrible image compression.
Marco:
And he gladly volunteered it, doesn't even want any money for it, and suggests that I can put it up and have, if anybody wants to get a fracture print of it, that I can... He designed it for the medium fracture size in mind, so I can put it up and people can order a fracture.
Marco:
So I'm definitely getting one.
Marco:
The reason I asked for it...
Marco:
it was before he even told me that the reason i asked for it was definitely so that i could get a fracture print of it and right as i was right as i was getting it from tiff in the in our chat she was upstairs and she was like order this from fracture right now like i didn't even have to talk to her first we both had the immediate thought oh man we're both getting it like we have to get this and hang it in the office
Marco:
So I offered to pay him for the high-res version and to support his work because this is awesome.
Marco:
And all he said was he won't take money if people want to support his work, which I definitely do.
Marco:
He has an app in the store called Disco Timer.
Marco:
And I downloaded it before the show.
Marco:
It's pretty good.
Marco:
It's a timer and you just turn to set the time.
Marco:
It is so simple.
Marco:
It is...
Marco:
completely over designed in the best possible way like it's full of like animation and really like you know strong visuals and you can you know just just go buy disco timer and uh unlock the net purchase it's like three bucks just go buy unlock this because this guy does awesome work and so check it out i'll put the link in the show notes as well yeah it's a fantastic piece of art
Marco:
it's so good and so chock full of references and every time i look at john's screen i just laugh a little bit because it is so out of control i love it oh yeah there's tons of windows and there's a toaster oven next to john and even like the pile of microphones that is sitting next to me that says sale those are the microphones i was selling like they they actually look like like he again the level of he got you know my keyboard i mean the level of detail here uh is really quite something i'm deeply impressed
Marco:
And almost all the details are correct.
Casey:
John, anything to add on this, or are you pretty much happy with what we just discussed?
John:
That's fine.
John:
There are lots of corrections I could add to it, but I don't want to put that into the head of the artist as if he's got to go back and fix all the mistakes, because they are there, but it'll just never end.
John:
So it's best to just go with what you've got instead of spending all your time fixing all the minor errors.
Casey:
I love you, John.
Marco:
So I think I'll ask him to make a few alterations to yours that make it even less accurate, and then I'll mail you a gift fracture with an even less accurate version of yours.
Casey:
Oh, that would be phenomenal.
John:
You don't even know all the corrections.
John:
I'll tell you in the after show.
John:
The after after show.
Marco:
oh that's amazing oh my goodness all right why don't you tell us about something else that's awesome okay we are sponsored this week by our friends at squarespace squarespace is the all-in-one platform that makes it fast and easy to create your own professional website portfolio or online store for a free trial and 10 off visit squarespace.com and enter offer code atp at checkout now look everybody i'm a programmer john and casey are programmers we all know how to make websites without squarespace
Marco:
So often I have written my own stuff from scratch.
Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
Plus, you can inject your own custom code if you're a programmer like me.
Marco:
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Marco:
Next time you have to do something, next time you have to make a website, or if you have a website already that is on something that's more work than you want to keep updated and to keep hosted, go start a Squarespace trial at squarespace.com and just try to replicate the site you already have or try to create a new site for a new project you have.
Marco:
Give it an hour, and you can do a surprising amount, and then you're just done.
Marco:
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Marco:
If you're building it for somebody else, then somebody else can just ask Squarespace when they have questions instead of asking you.
Marco:
It is so, so great for everybody, for regular people and for geeks like us who could make our own websites but probably shouldn't.
Marco:
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Marco:
Use offer code ATP to get 10% off your first purchase.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to Squarespace.
Marco:
Build it beautiful.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
So Microsoft has done something interesting, which every time I say that I have a little bit of surprise in my voice, but I shouldn't because they've been doing some interesting stuff for a while now.
Casey:
And they've come out with the Surface Book, which at first glance, having not really seen much about it, I was kind of like, okay.
Casey:
And then I looked into it a little bit earlier today and
Casey:
And it actually looks pretty good.
Casey:
I'm actually fairly impressed by it.
Casey:
One of the gripes I had about the surfaces that have existed thus far is that it just seemed like a terrible compromise in every direction.
Casey:
It's kind of a meh tablet.
Casey:
It's kind of a meh laptop.
Casey:
And it just didn't seem, just physically, it didn't seem like it was a very good endpoint for this series of compromises.
Casey:
This, however, the Surface Book, looks like a much better designed laptop that can do more than just a laptop.
Casey:
And although I haven't had time to read into it a lot, I am very impressed by the little bit I've seen so far.
John:
this is a an example of uh you know the only apple stuff this is an only microsoft thing only microsoft could have made this and why because only microsoft has an operating system that is the same one you know the same in in name and in concept anyway that runs on their tablets and on their laptops
John:
Apple couldn't make this because then what would you do when you take off the tablet part?
John:
Would it switch to iOS?
John:
And then when you click it back together, it switched back to OS X. That would be weird.
John:
So literally only Microsoft could make this because they're the only one who has a software platform that works like that.
John:
So that's kudos to them for taking advantage of.
John:
I mean, I'm sure they consider it their strength, but surely whether it's a strength or weakness, it's surely a differentiator because it is a seamless experience from having the thing connected and having it not connected because it's not like you change OSes or anything.
John:
It's always the same OS.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
And what makes this different from a hardware point of view is that the instead of being this like really chintzy looking kickstand, which I always thought was so ridiculous, it has what do they call this?
Casey:
A snake hinge, a spider hinge, some sort of fancy hinge that had an animal analogy.
Casey:
Anyways, it has this weird hinge, so you can fold it back on top of the keyboard, and then you can just pop the tablet-y part out and use it as a traditional tablet, which also looks pretty good, except for the fact that it appears at least on the right side, if not both sides.
Casey:
It's got a humongous, like, grill for the fan, which is a little unfortunate, but...
Casey:
by and large, it looks like it's a lot less chintzy than all the Surfi surfaces to date have been.
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
Marco, what do you think about this?
Marco:
My concern with this... So, right now, it looks really good.
Marco:
It looks amazing.
Marco:
Like, hardware-wise, this is like...
Marco:
I'd be really interested if Apple made something like this.
Marco:
Of course, we know they won't.
Marco:
But I'd be really interested if Apple made something like this because I know that I am ultimately a laptop person when it comes to mobile computing.
Marco:
With the iPad, it doesn't resonate with me the way it does with a lot of people.
Marco:
I am really a laptop person with the kind of work I like to do and the way I like to do it.
Marco:
um but i i do occasionally i am occasionally interested in stuff like you know taking a screen somewhere you know for some kind of like touch or or pen input i am very interested in pen type stuff to see like what i could do with that even though in real life i'm not much of a pen person and maybe that should just tell me right there i don't need it but
Marco:
the hardware on this does look really interesting um unfortunately the software is still windows and and i i don't mean to be you know too harsh on microsoft here because it does kind of feel like kicking them while they're down but uh windows the the best that people can say about it these days which is the best that people keep saying about their hardware is what you what you open up with casey that it's interesting and
Marco:
And interesting is great.
Marco:
People have been saying that when Windows Phone 8 came out, whatever that was officially called, when Windows 8 came out with the phone thing and the whole redesign and the artist formerly known as Metro interface style...
Marco:
People said the same thing.
Marco:
Oh, this is really interesting.
Marco:
People said the same thing about WebOS, that WebOS was really interesting.
Marco:
And even before that, BOS was really interesting.
Marco:
Lots of things can get the tech press to say they're interesting and to get geese like us to look at them and say, oh, that's interesting.
Marco:
The problem is how often that translates or doesn't translate into actually buying and using these things.
Marco:
So many of the reviews of these interesting products in tech history have all been like, yeah, this would be really nice maybe for somebody who's not me.
Marco:
And that seems to always be the case.
Marco:
The Surface Book here, this would be really interesting for us if we weren't already using Macs for everything.
Marco:
It's like, yeah, okay, this would be really interesting if we loved the Windows world, but didn't love the other PCs that have been keeping us there all this time.
Marco:
I bet a lot of people are going to look at this and say it's interesting, but I bet very few of them are actually going to buy it.
Marco:
And that's been the problem Microsoft has had with a lot of their recent stuff.
John:
Well, Mac users aren't going to buy it, right?
John:
But this is different than Windows Phone in that there is a built-in customer base for this because Microsoft is shrewdly this time presenting it as a laptop.
John:
Hey, we made a laptop.
John:
Oh, and by the way, the screen comes off and you kind of use it as a tablet, but...
John:
Yeah, I don't know if you know this, Marco, but I don't think you would want it because the tablet part gets like a four-hour battery life because more than half the batteries, like 80% of the batteries is in the base or whatever.
John:
They split them.
John:
I guess that makes sense for weight reasons.
John:
You'd have to.
John:
That's crazy.
John:
Yeah, they have to split the battery.
John:
But anyway, it's a four-hour battery life on the tablet.
John:
But anyway, Microsoft are presenting this as, forget about the whole detaching thing.
John:
This is just a good Windows notebook.
John:
And Windows notebook is not like a speculative product like the Surface was where it's like, I don't know, maybe people want to use this thing with the stand and the pen.
John:
people buy windows notebooks that is a thing that people buy this looks like a pretty good windows notebook like the performance is good the design is pretty nice the features they tout about it like the keyboard looks like it's well designed one of the features they touted has really good key travel on the keys you know and again how can they have good key travel on the keys because the computer is in the screen and the only thing that's in the keyboard part is the uh the batteries and you know a gpu and some other stuff you know it also doesn't have the teardrop shape
John:
yeah the tech the tech part is interesting because like it's dual gpu so in the base where the keyboard is there's a bunch of battery there's a keyboard and there's a big gpu uh and in the tablet part of it there is a smaller gpu and some battery and the actual cpu and the memory and the rest of the guts of the computer i would love to know what their interconnect is like is it
John:
some proprietary pci express thing is it actually thunderbolt over a custom connector it's not a standard connector they made up their own connector and even that like they're doing interesting apple style things like oh how do we connect the top to the bottom part with these little like uh like they call them like metal muscles but it's like wires that remember their shape and reform to their shape if you apply current to them using that to sort of pull tight these little clasps and stuff and they have like a little it's like your bmw marco like it
John:
when they disengage the uh the little hooks to let you know it's disengaged the speakers play a sound like a little snick so you know so you know when you know it is a you know just again ignoring the tablet part of it it's a pretty neat windows laptop and so i think their positioning of this product as a windows laptop first and by the way it has this pen and touch stuff second is really smart and i think it's not doomed like the surface isn't to be like well it's interesting but i don't really want one because even though we're we're not going to get it because we want to run os 10 right
John:
uh people who are already buying windows laptops who are in the market for a small windows laptop that they travel with or whatever and they're looking at well should i get like a dell laptop or should i get a lenovo laptop or should i get this thing this has a lot of appeal because it's it's nicer looking than the most of the other you know windows notebooks i see it's it's interesting with with the uh
John:
the the tablet angle and you can always say like well if i don't if the tablet thing turns out not to be useful to me it's still a nice laptop um so i think i i feel good things about this this product success in the market the only question marks in my mind in terms of how they're going to do selling this is just a plain old laptop is like how good is it microsoft at manufacturing things anymore because they're making this themselves they're not outsourcing as far as i understand and they have a lot of practice with the surface and dealing with manufacturing things and like this is this is a skill set that microsoft is developing
John:
apple has developed it apple's got it right and presumably lenovo and dell and all these other things have their own version of this expertise right but microsoft is clearly aiming at the we want the fit and finish of an apple type product the design expertise of an apple type product and i guess they're probably going to go for we want to be as good a manufacturer as apple too but that's a long road they're currently traveling that road so it is an interesting product i think it it is a smart move
John:
I mean, they did make the Surface 4.
John:
Like, they're still going in that Surface direction.
John:
But this is a smart move to say, you know, this is a product that only Microsoft could make.
John:
It advances our goals on all fronts in terms of getting better at making products and having them well-designed and stuff like that.
John:
And it will appeal.
John:
to an actual customer base that is you know every year buying a bunch of windows now windows laptops is not a growth industry uh you know neither are max for that matter although they're growing more than that but but hey you know start start small like as as i think it was uh satya nadella said is what is it like this is our these are colorful imacs i guess everything can't be their colorful imacs but they're recognizing that they're in the beginning stage of a resurgence
Marco:
I think this is the right way to do it.
Marco:
I think if they want to get more of the Apple-like market or the Apple-like appeal of having this really nice hardware with good integration with the software, people have been saying that one of the problems they have with this is their relationship with OEMs and how this is going to change that and harm that possibly.
Marco:
And I don't think that's really a concern at this point, because I think, you know, what is Dell going to do?
Marco:
Start putting Linux in those things?
Marco:
No.
John:
They're going to copy this design.
John:
They have the same thing with all the servers.
John:
Like, that's what all the ERMs will do.
John:
They will make things that look and act just like this, which I think is also fine with Microsoft.
Marco:
Yeah, but I think what we've seen over the last, I don't know, decade where Microsoft has been pushing various things here and there and the OEMs have been trying to compete better with Apple.
Marco:
And I think what we keep seeing over and over again is that the Windows PC makers just aren't very good at really truly competing with Apple on hardware for whatever reason.
Marco:
If they just can't do it right or if they just can't take the margin hit by making better stuff –
Marco:
Whatever the case may be, they aren't doing it.
Marco:
So if Microsoft can step in and attempt to do it, then, you know, more power to them.
Marco:
The biggest problem, I think, with this, though, is, you know, kind of going back to what I was saying earlier, but, like, who will buy this and will it appeal to them?
Marco:
So, like, you know, right now...
Marco:
People who have wanted a premium quality, well thought out, highly integrated computer for the last decade or more have been buying Macs.
Marco:
Even PC people like me and Casey have started out as PC people.
Marco:
Many of us, especially in the web developer community, so many of us moved to Macs over the last decade.
Marco:
um that you know the question of like you know who who's going to switch back i think it's going to be a pretty small number and all the remaining people who use pcs which is still you know i think it's still by far the dominant platform the question is will this appeal to those people you know relative to if you look at why people who who do buy pcs who aren't buying macs why they still buy pcs and
Marco:
And a lot of that is for cheaper hardware, much more variety of the type of hardware that's available, different types of more powerful stuff you can get for the money or more powerful stuff you can get in different form factors.
Marco:
People who buy PCs often want really beefy gaming GPUs and laptops and stuff like that.
Marco:
Or people who buy stuff for offices want stuff to be really cheap and easily managed and stuff.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
Will the people who are still buying PCs today want to buy this?
Marco:
And I know some of them will.
Marco:
But the question is, will enough buy it to really matter, to really kind of shift things around and start meaningful momentum behind this?
Marco:
And I don't know.
Casey:
I think the answer is definitely yes.
Casey:
So my brother-in-law is deep into the Microsoft stack.
Casey:
He does the same sort of work I do, typically more around CMSs than I do, although I do a lot of that work.
Casey:
He sent me a text today telling me that he was getting the Surface book.
Casey:
He was getting the new version of the Microsoft Band.
Casey:
And I didn't ask him if he's going to stick with his Windows phone or not.
Casey:
But I'm pretty sure he's feeling the pain in that department.
Casey:
But he loves his existing Microsoft Band.
Casey:
He loves his existing Surface.
Casey:
And he is seriously amped up over the Surface book.
Casey:
And I think the thing is that for PC users that are genuinely content being PC users, not ones with a philandering eye that are looking at Apple saying, hmm, that looks interesting.
Casey:
But ones who are really into PCs, they're saying this is perfect.
Casey:
It is the no compromise machine that really is nothing but compromises.
Casey:
But it's the no compromise machine.
Casey:
It is a perfect tablet that can do anything.
Casey:
Not like your piece of crap iPad that can only do iPad things.
Casey:
It can do anything.
Casey:
And as soon as it becomes a tablet, I don't have to compromise and use a neutered operating system.
Casey:
Then when I feel like typing, I have a perfectly good full size keyboard, not this hacky keyboard that kind of folds up on itself and folds around behind or in front or whatever.
Casey:
It's a full honest to goodness keyboard.
Casey:
This is perfect for those kinds of people.
Casey:
I'm not saying I'm one of them.
Casey:
I can't imagine that this would be terribly great to use.
Casey:
And even though I've heard great things about Windows 10, I have no particular interest in getting into that.
Casey:
However, if you're in that mindset of I want something with no compromises, I don't want Apple telling me what to do and how to do it.
Casey:
I want something that I can do whatever I want with in any form factor at any time with no compromises, again, actually built on compromises, then this is the thing for me.
Casey:
And it really is playing to their market.
Casey:
And I think it's doing it well.
Casey:
I mean, I admire what they're doing.
Casey:
I think they're playing to their market very well.
Casey:
It's just that that's not for me.
Casey:
And I think it's safe to say it's not for you guys either.
John:
let's say can i now list everything that's wrong with this now that we all said nice things about it sure yeah so this is kind of shooting fish in a barrel if you want to feel better about it think about the first macbook air which was also a mess as a product and this is doing better than that but anyway uh let's start with the hinge that we just talked about uh this this if you haven't seen the pictures you're like what are they talking about with the hinge a hinge is just a hinge right
John:
This hinge is weird because, well, first thing you have to know about it is when it's in the closed position, the top half does not touch the bottom half completely like it does on the Mac laptops.
John:
There's a big gap.
John:
Like you could drop coins.
John:
You could put the thing vertically and drop coins through it.
John:
It's like a big opening.
John:
You can see daylight through it, a very large opening.
John:
There is actually one advantage to this very large opening, which Andy Anotko pointed out, is that you don't get your finger schmutz from the keys onto the screen.
Marco:
that has happened with a lot of mac laptops in the past and i don't know if any of the current ones have the problem you guys can tell me they don't really use laptops um the 15 does a little bit it depends it depends a lot on how you put it in your bag and what is pushing against it if you don't have a lot of pressure that like pushes it more closed if that makes sense if you can avoid that kind of pressure in your bag with either how you put it in or how much other stuff you put in the bag with it uh you generally won't get those marks
John:
yeah anyway and that's a problem apple can solve by hey guess what had a little extra clearance there um but anyway that is the one advantage i think they killed the keyboard john the one place you need clearance like oh we can cut that's not important we can cut that out hey i bet the macbook one keys don't touch the screen because they're so repressed you know they don't even poke up from the anyway um
John:
the disadvantage of course is that it makes the wide end wider it makes it really wide um and that's not great for like you want i it depends on how you feel about like you've seen ever seen those things where they show like a picture of a bunch of pencils all lined up and one pencil is poking out and various other things that are slightly disordered and if you're the type of person who likes like all your books lined up neatly on your bookshelf and all your things just so looking at those pictures can give you discomfort this laptop i'm one of those people by the way this laptop gives me a little bit of discomfort of like
John:
can't you just can just close it just close it all the way can't just make it flat like you just want to just stomp on that hinge anyway um so but the practical consideration is uh that it makes the thing wider on the end which isn't great because you do want a laptop to be thin um because the screen part of it is basically the computer and the bottom part of it uh even though it has a gpu and a keyboard and a bunch of ports on it uh is not the computer the screen part is
John:
wider than you would expect on a laptop because these days on the mac laptops the screen part is really thin all it is is a screen it's really really really thin this can't be really thin that's where the whole cpu is there's a fan and there's a whole bunch of other stuff and as we know from other surfaces when you do that that makes that top part heavy and if you're not careful when you put it in a laptop shape
John:
it can tip over because if you know because you don't have it at exactly a right angle you open up to to a wider angle than that and once you open up to a wider angle if the top part is heavy and the keyboard part is light it can just tip over and of course you don't want to do that you want it to stay like a laptop right that's what this hinge is doing they're they're so close like basically what they did was they took
John:
they took the the battery battery is their ballast right so they've got we got the gpu here we got the cpu in the screen there we got the ports but we haven't put battery anywhere yet in that arrangement with no battery anywhere the top is heavier because the top has more stuff in it like it is just the screen alone the glass on the screen like it is just the heaviest part and so like all right
John:
This thing doesn't stand upright in this situation, but we haven't put any battery in yet.
John:
We need to distribute the battery so it sits upright.
John:
And they don't want to take all the battery and shove it into the keyboard part because then when you detach it as a tablet, you get 30 seconds of battery life.
John:
So they want as much as possible in the screen.
John:
So they're doing this balancing act where, like, put some battery in the bottom, put some battery in the top.
John:
And just doing this kind of balance, like, how can we get it so it doesn't tip over, but we have the most battery possible in the top part?
John:
and to get just a little bit of extra battery in the top part to get it to not tip over that's where the hinge comes in because when you open the hinge the hinge effectively makes the base wider like it puts the heavy part farther away you can you know we'll have dr drang do the force diagram for you but like but basically the hinge lays down on the table effectively making the base longer so that the weight that's at the end of the base that the part like where the trackpad is which by the way is a glass trackpad not a chintzy plastic one um
John:
that weight now can hold that end down better like they're getting just a little bit of extra stability by making the hinge suddenly become part of like the three segments of the hinge become part of the bottom part of the hinge and you're like seriously does that extra half an inch or a centimeter make a difference that's what kind of hairline they're drawing in terms of like tip ability not ability i'm not saying it's like teetering on the brink i'm saying they had some criteria for how typical they want it to be like where the center of gravity is or whatever
John:
uh and those three little segments that lay on the table when you open it up you give them a little bit of extra margin let them put a little bit of extra battery in the top part that is like casey said is a hell of a compromise like this hinge is not there for design reasons it's not there for style reasons and it's not there to keep your fingers much off the screen by putting a half inch gap between the key caps and the screen it's there
John:
to try to work around the compromise they've they've had to deal with and you know the final compromise is that tablet gets four hours of battery life and that is just no good like if you want to if you want to use it as a tablet uh any substantial amount of time don't get this one like get the actual surface pro 4 like because most of the battery on this thing is in the base part of it um and the final thing i would say is for microsoft design and everything
John:
I admire all the interesting things that they're doing and that they're trying to gain these expertise, but they still seem, with their hardware designs, if not their software designs, trapped in the white room that Johnny Ive made.
John:
This is a silver metallic laptop.
John:
It's got a light-up logo on the back of it that's not shaped like an Apple.
John:
It's shaped like the little silly Windows logo, which is not a great logo.
John:
squint and it looks like every other laptop and every other laptop looks like apple laptops i know it's magnesium and not aluminum but like the aesthetic the overall sort of you know the keys are look like apple's keys but they're you know magnesium instead and they're not dome switches but like apple so dominates hardware design visually that every single other computer including microsoft super innovative ones just they just live in the shadow of everything that apple's design team has done um and i i feel like eventually they're gonna have to go their own way and get out of that shadow like
John:
it's the thing that johnny i've said a million times like we want to make a design that after we do what everyone thinks it's inevitable and it's it's the blessing and the curse because like people like well of course that's what a laptop has to be shaped like because that's what they're shaped like no that's just the way johnny i've made them like don't accept his it's not actually inevitable it's great design it makes you think it's inevitable but it's like everyone else is like well this is what laptops look like i we have no choice but to make a lot down to making a glass trackpad for crying out loud like they use the materials the colors the appearance just
John:
you know again microsoft getting out of the material saying we're going to use magnesium it's better than aluminum and we're going to deal with only manufacturing it's like fine good but like you still end up making a silver laptop without your glowing logo on the back of it um so that's it for someone who has never actually touched one of these things just looking at the pictures of what i think is uh is wrong with this
Casey:
It gets up to 12 hours of video playback, John.
John:
When it's connected to the giant battery on the keyboard.
Marco:
I found a typo on their website.
Marco:
Oh, yeah?
Marco:
Yeah, the link here I put in the show notes on their main page under tech specs.
Marco:
You scroll down past the picture of the two laptops, choose the power you need, and it says Intel Core i5 with Intel HG graphics.
Marco:
It's supposed to be HD graphics.
Marco:
Intel HG graphics don't exist.
Marco:
Hopefully, they put more attention to detail into the actual manufacturing of the product.
John:
the the os integration is again you know it's great that microsoft not only microsoft could do this because apple can do it as well but it's it's a typical apple move like hey we're gonna make this weird thing with two gpus is that gonna be supported well in windows yeah because we write windows so we'll make sure that you know it's it's kind of like when apple did the gpu switching where we have discrete and integrated in the same laptop and we'll smartly switch between them and apple kind of screwed that up hopefully microsoft did a better job because they basically have the same thing they have the big faster gpu
John:
in the keyboard part, and the lower power, not as fast GPU in the tablet part.
John:
And I'm assuming it does some either, if not smart switching between them, then just two modes, like one all discrete and one all integrated.
Marco:
Going back a sec to what you said about the Johnny Ive trap of design here, honestly, and bringing this back to Apple a little bit,
Marco:
i would love to see more variety i think it seems like apple's computer design is is really kind of stuck in a rut and i don't know you know i don't maybe johnny ive has has just reached the limit of what he cares to do on computer designs um well it's not him it's his team but anyway the mac pro was a breath of fresh air or not so fresh air but you can't say it looked like an aluminum machined rounded corner rectangle
Marco:
that's true yeah the mac pro i think looks great um it's i i don't know i but you know we all know that they really mostly just sell laptops these days and and i am a little bit i don't know maybe i'm just bored because i've been using laptops that look basically the same for the last 15 year 10 years uh that i've been buying macs so i don't know i i i would love to see a little more variety in in what apple offers well they are they are doing colors now right
Marco:
The colors are barely different from each other.
John:
I get what you're saying, though.
John:
They are very... We are in a rut.
John:
We are in a design rut for this.
John:
And there is room to do more interesting things, but...
John:
Here's what I think the problem that Apple faces with this design.
John:
I think we talked about this in past shows for laptops.
John:
One, laptops are constrained by being laptops to some degree.
John:
You can make the Mac Pro a weird tube because whatever.
John:
You don't carry it around.
John:
Laptops, for the most part, have to be a thing that is small and light and...
John:
And that is reasonably portable, which probably means it has to fold flat into some kind of shape that's not too big to fit in a bag.
John:
Like those constraints really, you know, the screen is not going to be circular.
John:
Like there's only so much you can do.
John:
And within the constraints, you know, and the Apple design has been like, oh, we just need to refine it down to its essence and blah, blah, blah.
John:
And they've been doing that.
John:
And they eventually settled on material, which is big giant blocks of aluminum that they carve out that's strong and light and attractive and durable and all that stuff.
John:
which is just so much better than everything else they tried, which included plastic and titanium and aluminum that wasn't carved out of a single giant block.
John:
The aluminum unibody is a great design for a laptop.
John:
And so the problem they're faced with is either we can continue to do aesthetic things with a single block of aluminum, which I think there's room for that.
John:
You can make a Darth Vader black one and charge $150 extra for it in the tradition of the old black book, and that would be great.
John:
or you can make one that has like a mirror finish or something like i don't you know like there are things you can do within the metal but that's mostly just uh you know surface design to go to the next stage of design you have to change materials and i'm sure in a lab somewhere apple is constantly evaluating is aluminum really the best material to make a laptop out of is there anything else can we do carbon fiber can we revisit titanium what about magnesium microsoft's doing that like
John:
new materials could mean something new for them and especially if they you know say now we're into the era where things are going to be flexible instead of rigid or we have like floppy oled screens that roll out on little stilts or i don't know but for for the foreseeable future
John:
I think machined aluminum is the best choice.
John:
And then there are aesthetic choices within that are constrained, both by being a laptop and by, like, there's only so much you can do with it.
John:
But, you know, in the end, their timid tinting of the aluminum is still pretty wimpy.
John:
Like...
Marco:
a jet black one alone would be exciting enough that maybe you'd be like oh that looks cool i'll be interested to not have yet another million silver laptops in my house right i mean look at look at what they're able to do with the ipod touch colors they look great and the ipods from forever ago like the like the ipod nano the ipod touch those those have these like bold bright colors that change every few years and you know like that would be really interesting uh on on laptops on the phones
Marco:
uh but but they're they're so much more conservative and i'm sure there's good reason for that uh with you know design marketing fashion whatever but i i admit i'm really i'm i'm really kind of bored with their designs um and maybe that you know that's obviously a really like stupid thing to whine about but i would like to see them just try a little bit more variety there you gotta be careful what you ask for though because the thing that just flashed into my mind was like a macbook one
John:
uh which is not actually called the macbook one new listeners which is what we call it the really skinny one with the bad keyboard um but like what do you you know where it's still silver or maybe it's black or maybe it's like tinted gray or you know whatever like it's still aluminum the only thing you have to mess with color wise there is the keyboard why not make the keyboard dalmatian why not make the keyboard flower power like these are things that have happened like why did the dalmatian flower power exist because at a certain point you're like
John:
the iMac is defined by CRT we've got a slot loading drive we've done a bunch of tweaks to the design you know what we've got this big giant canvas let's do something with it they don't have much of a canvas in the other ones like I guess they could make the back of the screen have weird you see all this aftermarket stuff where they like laser etch your laptop with like flowers or whatever uh
John:
there's not there's only so much room for uh for things until you uh for innovation in this space if you stick to aluminum unless you start saying all right it's time to wallpaper things time to just like there's a bunch of services that i treat as billboards and i'm just going to put a bunch of stuff on them and i don't think the flower power and dalmatian imax which are real things young people that actually happened i don't think they sold very well
John:
uh but that's sort of the logical conclusion of we are in a design rut and we can't think of anything else we've done colors we've done shapes we're we're stuck with this until we can come up with the flat panel imac you know in which case they started innovating again in the design uh at the very end of that life cycle they said all right patterns whatever
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You need something more advanced than that.
Marco:
mail route is that more advanced service so here's what you do you point your dns for your mail rate for your mx records your mail record you point your dns to mail route and then mail route filters out all the spam and delivers the mail to your real mail server so they basically just shield you from all that crap at the service level so you can use any app you want doesn't matter you can use any imap provider you want any email host you want if you're on your own email server this is especially interesting for you because this can dramatically reduce the load on them
Marco:
You can save money on just having fewer servers and you can just not deal with it.
Marco:
And if you're like me and you have just an individual account somewhere that you pay for, you get the best spam filtering I've ever seen with MailRoute.
Marco:
It is really incredibly good.
Marco:
I really cannot overstate this.
Marco:
And by most accounts, from people who have used both, they actually say it's better than Gmail spam filtering.
Marco:
So you can get...
Marco:
the best spam filtering i've ever seen better than gmail on any mail host you want whether it's something like fast mail where you're paying for it or whether you're running your own servers you get the world-class spam filtering right from mail route it is amazing and of course you know viruses malware they cover all that too but for me the important part is spam and they nail it i've never seen one this good
Marco:
So anyway, you can check it out yourself today.
Marco:
Go to mailroute.net slash ATP for a free trial and 10% off for the lifetime of your account.
Marco:
That's really interesting.
Marco:
Not just once up front, 10% off for the lifetime of your account if you use our link, mailroute.net slash ATP.
Marco:
Say goodbye to spam forever.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to MailRoute.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
Question for you guys.
Casey:
Do we really care that Jack Dorsey's back at Twitter?
Casey:
Because I do not care.
Casey:
I couldn't possibly care less.
Casey:
A lot of our friends are really excited about this, and I don't care.
Casey:
Why should I care?
Marco:
I mean, I care about Twitter, but the Twitter leadership over the years has been such a revolving door that's just like, I don't know.
Marco:
It seems like they have a lot of issues up there that are way above most of our heads, and it doesn't really... I don't know.
Marco:
I think Twitter is a really, really useful thing, a really important thing in the world right now, and I hope they don't screw it up, but I have no idea whether this is a step in the right direction or not.
Marco:
I have no clue.
John:
Yeah, that's that's the thing, too.
John:
I care about Twitter's leadership.
John:
I care about the direction of Twitter as a Twitter user, but I don't know enough about Jack Dorsey or the history behind the leadership or what's really going on behind the scenes to know whether this is a good or a bad thing or it's just, you know, wait five minutes and someone else will be in charge.
John:
So it doesn't matter.
John:
So I really hope this is a good thing.
John:
A lot of people seem to think it is, but I have no particular information or faith that this is going to make things better than they have been.
Marco:
I mean, I will say that it did seem like they were going in a bad direction.
Marco:
And so a change is probably for the best.
Marco:
But the reason they were going in a bad direction was probably not because of who the CEO was.
Marco:
It's probably because of all the pressures they're facing.
Marco:
They face so much pressure.
Marco:
Now they're a public company and they're really not hitting their growth or usage goals.
Marco:
They're under so much pressure from everybody, from the investors, from the public, from the press, from
Marco:
almost certainly from the board as a result of all those things they are under so much pressure to juice their numbers and really you know get the growth and get the usage up because they're not keeping up with where they wanted to be and their stock price isn't doing that well as a result and blah blah blah and so it has a lot less to do i think with like you know somebody sitting in a conference room saying this is what i feel is best for the product i think it's instead it's like dealing with that giant pile of crap that whoever is in charge of twitter has to deal with now
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
so maybe this is promising who knows but uh it's it's not a simple problem and and it's not you know that the things they change might not be you know all great and lucky for us i mean dick costolo was doing a pretty good job on a lot of fronts you know he wasn't doing great on everything but he was doing pretty well on a lot of things and a lot of those things are things we didn't like like some of the monetization and ad stuff but he was he was doing fairly well on that on that kind of stuff as far as i know so
Marco:
I don't think... If Twitter starts making changes to keep themselves afloat, to keep their numbers going up, to keep their product going where it should be going...
Marco:
Most of that sounds to me like they need to do things we don't like.
Marco:
They need to inject ads into the stream for third-party clients.
Marco:
They need to actually really not boost third-party clients because they need to take control of their own product.
Marco:
This is all stuff that I don't like, but it's probably going to happen.
John:
Cool.
John:
The control of their own product, A, they've kind of had it for a while, and B, it's clear they don't know what to do with that control.
John:
It's like, now we control the product, and what we're going to do with it is let most of our clients rot to crap, and then we don't know what we're going to do with the few clients we do pay attention to.
John:
And so that's... It's like, well, you've got the control, but the second part of having the control is doing something with that control.
John:
And so far, they've just...
John:
been floundering.
John:
That's why people are optimistic.
John:
Like, oh, Jack Dorsey, you'll maybe understand that developers are important.
John:
I'm not saying that's a good strategy, but at least that's a strategy where something would happen.
John:
I think the problem has been there hasn't been
John:
a clear like the direction was like okay so much for third parties we're going to take control but they didn't like they didn't take that and take the ball and run with it like all right we've got control now let's go boldly off into this direction which may have been the wrong direction but at least you can say well this is the thing they did they took control from third party developers and they ran as fast as they could in this direction and guess what there was a brick wall oh well but at least they tried something
John:
the only thing that that you know that we know would have some effect is well you could run back in the other direction where it used to be like oh third parties are welcome and like everybody who wants to have an api key will you know maybe we'll have some revenue sharing arrangement where like if you sell a twitter client and use our api you have to give us a percentage of the money or something like that but that's not going to make them rich that's not going to move the needle on their stock price we know it would work developers would love to do it third party clients would flourish
John:
they would make some money off of it but it would be peanuts compared to what they have to make to to be the company that everyone thinks they're supposed to be the only good thing you can say about twitter at this point is no matter who's in charge eventually as these ceos rotate as bad as things get as long as twitter continues to be like it is now somebody can always sell it because
John:
It's like there's plenty of people who will buy Twitter right now today if the price is right, including probably Apple, because Twitter is still a thing.
John:
It is popular.
John:
Hashtags are everywhere.
John:
You see them on TV.
John:
It has gotten into the culture to the degree that worst case scenario, the very, very worst is the last CEO out the door sells the company to one of the million eager buyers.
John:
Maybe not for what they could have got at the peak of their fame, but surely enough to give that CEO a golden parachute and to say, well,
John:
We made some money for our investors and it's fine.
John:
And we couldn't figure out what to do with the company.
John:
Let it be absorbent to another company that has some other way to make tons of money.
John:
And we're just like a little nice to have value add.
John:
yeah we'll see i don't i i just i've been trying to get excited about this and i just don't care have you guys seen the new moment thing i don't even know what anyone's talking about with that yeah neither do i yeah i like i like the fact that like that's the twitter that we don't use like the twitter people use the official client it's like it's everybody who's not a tech nerd and cable sasser i think are the people who use the official twitter client and vatici i think
John:
maybe i think even he finally went back i don't know here's the thing i still launched the official i had the official client store installed and i still launch it every once in a while mostly because i i don't know this is irrational but i don't when people send me twitter dms all of the third-party clients i feel nervous about whether i'm correctly using them to send dms and the official twitter client has a more reassuring interface for dms i've found even tweetbot for which i just installed tonight
John:
I was going to do some DMs over there, and I hit the plus button and typed in someone's name, and it didn't come up in the search.
John:
I'm like, well, I know this person follows me, but I don't follow them, and it's not coming up, and I don't know how to send this person a message.
John:
And I'm always afraid to do D space, you know, the old ways.
John:
The old ways may be the best ways, but at this point, I'm so nervous that some Twitter client is not going to honor the D space, whatever name, and I'm going to publicly tweet something that I'm trying to DM.
John:
Yeah.
John:
So anyway, all this to say is that I do launch the official Twitter client on a, you know, maybe once a month or so.
John:
And just I can't make heads or tails of it in there.
John:
I don't know what's going on.
John:
I just want to get the hell out of there and back to any other client as fast as I can.
Casey:
Just for what it's worth, John, if you ever need a DM guinea pig, I'm happy to be that guy.
Casey:
I'm here for you.
John:
no that's the problem like it'll work on you and then like i'll i'll accidentally put an extra space in or use a capital d because i didn't notice that the shift key was auto down and just i just feel i want to read more reassuring gooey interfaces like you're in the dm zone now and first you're going to pick the person you're dming by tapping on them like not typing their name and the next is okay this is a dm to this person the ui clearly states that you're in a dm to this person type your dm here and the only thing you can do from that screen is type a dm right
John:
I'm really nervous about just the generic field.
John:
Even though I used to do it back in the old days, especially now that DM link limits are up and people are using it more like I am, I just want to get the hell off Twitter DM as fast as possible because I'm so afraid that I'm going to accidentally start, you know, put something in public that shouldn't be.
John:
That's bad enough with like iMessages with everything in one window.
John:
I'm constantly sending people the wrong message because I didn't notice which thing is selected in the sidebar because it's a single window interface.
John:
You need your windows.
John:
I know.
John:
ADM remembers the size and position of the windows for each individual person.
John:
I'm way less likely to do wrong window in ADM than I am in the admin messages.
John:
And historically, I just did it the other day.
John:
I'm pretty much average.
John:
Every other month, I send someone the wrong message and I message.
John:
And ADM, I think I've maybe done it once in three years.
John:
I can't believe you still use Adium.
John:
Well, I mean, I can't with all you iMessage people.
Marco:
Sorry.
Marco:
Yeah, I signed out of my AIM name, I think, a couple of years ago.
Marco:
I just removed it from iChat and was like, yeah, I'm done.
Casey:
Yeah, I think pretty much everyone I converse with in a way that I would previously have described as instant messaging, it's all iMessage or very rarely just text messages that I'm typing on my Mac.
Marco:
Our final sponsor this week is Fracture.
Marco:
Go to FractureMe.com and use code ATP15 for 15% off your first order.
Marco:
These are beautiful pictures printed in vivid color directly on glass.
Marco:
And let me tell you, people, I have so many fractures around my office.
Marco:
As noted by our friend in the artwork that I'll link to during this, it is so good.
Marco:
if you want this on a fracture, go get it and use code ATP 15, 15% off.
Marco:
It is so good.
Marco:
I'm going to do that.
Marco:
So fracture photos, first of all, these are great.
Marco:
They are, it's just, it's photos printed on glass and it's not heavy.
Marco:
It is, it is a very thin piece of glass adhered to a piece of like foam core that you can, you can like hang it from the foam core.
Marco:
It is nice and light.
Marco:
So you don't have to like, you don't have to worry about like, you know, tearing a giant hole out of your wall or anything like that or dropping it or, you know, things like that.
Marco:
It's very nice and convenient, very easy.
Marco:
And it just looks fantastic.
Marco:
The photo is printed edge to edge on this piece of glass.
Marco:
And so it just looks clean and modern.
Marco:
You don't frame them.
Marco:
They are framed, basically.
Marco:
They don't need their own extra framing.
Marco:
So you save money, you save hassle, and it just looks super clean and modern.
Marco:
Really great look.
Marco:
I always get compliments on these when people come over and they see them in my office.
Marco:
It's really...
Marco:
I can't explain well enough how good they are, but trust me, you want these.
Marco:
They also make great gifts.
Marco:
Now, Fractures have been telling all their podcast hosts this week.
Marco:
They really want to, first of all, send a ginormous thank you.
Marco:
They actually use the word ginormous here in the script, so I'm going to say it.
Marco:
I'm not sure I've ever said ginormous before tonight, but they really wanted to send a ginormous thank you to everybody who has been ordering Fractures through their various podcast ads.
Marco:
They are very thankful, and we are thankful for having them as sponsors.
Marco:
Now, here's the thing with fracture.
Marco:
All these are handmade and hand printed in their factory in Florida by human beings.
Marco:
And so what happens is during the holidays, they often get backlogged.
Marco:
And so if you want to get fractures made as gifts, which I highly recommend, I'll be doing this myself.
Marco:
I already did a couple.
Marco:
I'm going to do a couple more.
Marco:
If you want fractures as gifts...
Marco:
which they're great at.
Marco:
Get a nice picture, get it off your phone, get it off Instagram, put it on glass, send it to your family, send it to your friends, whatever the case may be.
Marco:
If you want to do that, get your orders in now because when the holiday season's approaching, oftentimes they get overrun and they get backordered and then it can't make it in time.
Marco:
If you try to place an order in late November, you might not get it in time for Christmas or New Year's or whatever holiday you're buying photos for.
Marco:
place that order now.
Marco:
Get in front of the line.
Marco:
I highly recommend doing this as gifts.
Marco:
Again, they make wonderful gifts.
Marco:
The prints look awesome.
Marco:
Get them for yourself, get them for your family, whatever the case may be.
Marco:
Get Fractures.
Marco:
Go to FractureMe.com.
Marco:
It's a great service with great prints.
Marco:
FractureMe.com.
Marco:
Use coupon code ATP15 for 15% off your first order.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to Fracture for sponsoring our show again.
Casey:
Excellent.
Casey:
So TweetBot 4 came out.
Casey:
Finally.
Casey:
And it's really good.
Casey:
I'm really liking it.
Casey:
And, you know, I was talking about this recently on another show, and I have nothing against Twitterific.
Casey:
I love Craig Hockenberry to death, and I like Twitterific, but it doesn't operate the way my brain operates, and that doesn't make it wrong by any stretch.
Casey:
And clearly, John, it operates the way your brain operates, but...
John:
Is it just the unified timeline?
Casey:
No, the unified timeline doesn't bother me.
Casey:
But, you know, the way Tweetbot has the – well, I'm thinking specifically about the phone.
Casey:
And I used Twitterific more on the iPad.
Casey:
I don't have my iPad within arm's reach.
Casey:
But –
Casey:
looking at replies, I know there was a tab for that.
Casey:
Gosh, it's a very valid question that I can't remember off the top of my head what would bother me about it.
Casey:
But anytime I went to drill deeper into a conversation, for example, something about it was always backwards from what I expected.
Casey:
It's just things didn't work the way I expected them to.
Casey:
Whereas in TweetBot,
John:
everything worked the way i expected it to i'll have to take it as homework to come up with some specifics for next week was it like the swipe directions and stuff there's like sometimes swipe directions are like muscle memory like i don't if you ask me i don't even know what the swipe directions are to show the conversation and or replies and stuff in twitterific my fingers just do them it's kind of like emacs key combos i've realized i've realized now with new people at work who i try to tell emacs key things to
John:
that i don't know what the keys are my hands know but i don't know and i try to explain it and i say the wrong thing and they try it and like i tried that and nothing happened i'm like i guess that's not it and i said i have to put my hands on the keyboard and just just do this i'm like oh yeah it's ctrl xb uh but it's not control anyway like in all fairness nobody knows what emacs can keep no some people know them but like but muscle memory it's with ios apps with gestures i find this true a lot of the case where you just get used to like
John:
and it's weird to say like is it swipe to the left it depends on how you conceptualize it like am i revealing more information from the right or am i moving the virtual tile to the left um i know tweetbot has like the controls on the bottom and twitterific like doesn't reveal an extra set of controls on the bottom and anyway i i can see how the gestures might be different but i i think that's like a surmountable like the muscle memory is a surmountable thing but anyway dude
Casey:
tweet bots fine i've got installed twitter if it's fine they got installed unified timeline is my big feature um but other than that i feel like it's like six of one half a dozen the other and that's probably true and and the thing of it is is that just for me it's gestures it's it's some of the ways things are displayed i'm actually opening it on my phone even though i don't typically use um i never use twitter if i got my phone
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
That always kind of annoyed me.
Casey:
Let's see.
Casey:
Replying was always basically okay.
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
I'll have to play around with it again and see what it was that bothered me.
Casey:
But maybe it just does come down to gestures, just being backwards from what I'm expecting.
Casey:
In any case, TweetBot is out.
Casey:
It includes the iPad app.
Casey:
I love it.
Casey:
I think it's great.
Casey:
I like the new activity tab.
Casey:
I'm a little sad that a while ago now the retweets tab kind of died in a fire, which I used to like looking at.
Marco:
Yeah, I miss that too.
Marco:
I campaigned during the beta, but the activity screen went out.
Casey:
Yeah, I did the same.
Casey:
And I was told I know in certain terms, it's not happening.
Casey:
But I do like the activity screen.
Casey:
I think it's kind of cool.
Casey:
Definitely not something I should be looking at, because the last thing I need to do is be looking at Twitter more and trying to engage with my brand more.
Casey:
But nevertheless, I do like it.
Casey:
I think it's cool.
Casey:
But there was a lot of anger as with every time that the TweetBots, excuse me, TapBots guys release a new version that costs money.
Casey:
People were really upset about paying $5 for an app that if they're anything like me, they use for hours every single day.
Casey:
And geez, just when are we going to get off this treadmill?
Marco:
Well, you know, I wonder, like, how much of it is just people who can be safely ignored?
Marco:
You know, because the reality is they still hit number one paid app on the chart.
Marco:
I don't know where they are now, but they hit that on their launch day.
Marco:
So, you know, it's selling well.
Marco:
You're always going to have, when you have that many people, you're going to have a lot of people who complain.
Marco:
And it's always just a percentage of the user base who's going to be angry no matter what.
Marco:
The question is, you know, are there more than what could be expected for that number of people?
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And honestly, I don't think there are.
Marco:
I mean, I don't see their support email, and I don't read all their tweets, so I don't know.
Marco:
But from just what I've heard here and there, what I've seen, you know, I looked at their App Store reviews, and it doesn't seem like it's any worse than what you'd expect from any app that had that many people using it.
Marco:
So yeah, they charge for an upgrade.
Marco:
Who cares?
Marco:
The people who care are people who, you know, I think we'd all be better off just ignoring those people, honestly.
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah, I think you're right.
Casey:
But I love the new app.
Casey:
I think it's great.
Casey:
I've always loved TweetBot.
Casey:
I will probably forever love TweetBot.
Casey:
Marco, I assume you're into it as well.
Casey:
You're digging it?
Marco:
Yeah, I mean, I've been using it for a while and I really like it.
Casey:
John, is it just not even worth you looking?
Casey:
I mean, I know you said you installed it, but not even worth you taking seriously because no unified timeline?
John:
It's my backup Twitter client.
John:
If something is wonky or if I want to make sure this is the client issue or if I want to use the activity view, I don't think I would ever use that.
John:
But that's an example of a feature that Twitter doesn't have.
John:
But if I wanted something like that, I would go there.
John:
So it's like Twitter is what I use every day, all day.
John:
tweet bot if i feel like i want to try something in a different client and then finally following all the way back to the official client if there's something that is only supported in the official client or i want to see what what it's like in the official client or whatever so i always i've always got tweet bot installed but it's on like a another page of icons it's not in a folder it's out of a folder the official twitter one is in a folder um
John:
But yeah, I keep it around, and I always buy it and upgrade it.
John:
Maybe it's I'm wasting my money on it, buying an app that I'm going to launch like five times before the next upgrade.
John:
But I like seeing what's happening in the Twitter client space.
John:
I spend a lot of time on Twitter.
Marco:
Yep, same here.
Marco:
Yeah, I mean, this is my most used app on the iPhone, no question.
Marco:
And on the Mac, it's up there.
Marco:
On the Mac, maybe Mail and Safari beat it.
Marco:
But otherwise, it's my most used app, which is really sad.
Marco:
But the fact is, as you mentioned, it's part of so many of our professional and social lives.
Marco:
It's all intertwined in there.
Marco:
And it's very hard to get out of that.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
I think Twitter is here to stay for a while for a lot of us.
Marco:
And if you're going to be using Twitter, one of these apps that's not the official Twitter app is usually the right move.
Marco:
And TweetBot is the one that fits me best.
Marco:
As you mentioned, I've tried Twitterific.
Marco:
I can see why people like it, but it doesn't fit me as well.
Casey:
Yep, I completely agree.
Marco:
So yeah, to me, this is a great update, and I'm happy with it.
Marco:
All right.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Squarespace, MailRoute, and Fracture.
Marco:
And we will see you next week.
Marco:
Now the show is over.
Marco:
They didn't even mean to begin.
Marco:
Because it was accidental.
Marco:
Oh, it was accidental.
Marco:
John didn't do any research.
Marco:
Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental.
Marco:
It was accidental.
John:
And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
Marco:
And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
Marco:
So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse.
Marco:
It's accidental, they didn't mean it.
Casey:
You bought your Tesla yet?
Marco:
Yeah, I bought it with all the peace money and then had to return it.
Casey:
Oh, that sucks.
Marco:
Man, tough luck.
Marco:
I keep seeing a red one in town.
Marco:
Somebody in town has the red P85D.
Marco:
And it looks really good.
Marco:
So I think I'm going to go red if I do it.
Marco:
I still, before I make a final decision, I still do want to do one more test drive.
Marco:
And I would like to test drive the non-P version, just the 85 or 90D, because that's the one I would probably want to get.
Marco:
I don't think I want to go all the way to the P, just because even though I did love driving it, it's like $20,000 more, mostly for this insane mode that I actually found too fast and slightly unpleasant.
Marco:
Yeah.
John:
to use you have to try the ludicrous mode though maybe that goes it wraps around it's like shooting the moon right it wraps around and it becomes sublime right there was the 95d has ludicrous mode no 90 only but yeah it only goes 90 right now but what is the 90d it's not even shown on the website it's just it's just a range boost on the 85 you pay like an extra three grand you get you get it's just a bigger battery but that's the that's the one with ludicrous mode right which is a step up from insane mode yeah like it will you can you can get any of them in that capacity but ludicrous mode requires it
Marco:
um but it doesn't i mean i'm definitely not doing ludicrous mode that's you know you have to try it at least once like i said it could wrap around you don't know uh yeah so wait so i'm sorry you said you which one do you think you want the one i probably would get would be the 90d so it is it is the one that is roughly as fast as the m5 and it is you know the longest range you can get in their lineup and
Marco:
the things about the p about the p version like the basically gets you like you know red brake calipers which look cool but i don't need them and the option for a carbon fiber spoiler which i think actually looks bad so you know yeah i don't really need it uh and for the dip for that like i don't i wouldn't feel good spending that much extra money on it if the if the uh 85 slash 90d is almost as good
Marco:
I also like, you know, the fact is my car right now is faster than what I usually can use with it.
Marco:
You know, I live in a neighborhood.
Marco:
I drive around residential streets most of the time.
Marco:
I can't and really shouldn't have a faster car than what I have now.
Marco:
I don't even need a car that's as fast as the one I have now.
Marco:
And I'm also, as I mentioned once before, I'm kind of over having a loud car.
Marco:
I never liked my cars to be loud.
Marco:
I've been getting cars that are loud because I like the way they drive.
Marco:
They're fast and sporty.
Marco:
But I always feel self-conscious with driving a very loud car on a residential street.
Marco:
And it seems like...
Marco:
The loudness of the M cars is completely artificial.
Marco:
Not even just with the radio in the car, but even the outside noise.
Marco:
You can put any muffler on there that sounds like anything you want, and the only reason they make them loud is because a lot of people want that, and it sounds fast.
Marco:
And so a lot of people who are buying fast cars...
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
A lot of people who are buying fast cars want... They demand that it be loud.
Marco:
But to me, it feels so pandering.
Marco:
It feels so artificial.
Marco:
It almost feels insulting to my intelligence that they take this car and they just make it louder because they think I will require that.
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
That doesn't feel great to me.
Marco:
As I'm getting older...
Marco:
And I have my kid now, and I'm around a lot of other people with kids, and there's kids all over the block, and I'm driving this loud car down the street.
Marco:
I get a little self-conscious about it.
Marco:
So I'm over having a loud car.
Marco:
And if you look at BMW's lineup...
Marco:
The only way to get a transmission that I would tolerate is either to have a loud M car, which, by the way, still there's no all-wheel drive version, unless you count the X5 slash 6Ms, which shouldn't exist.
Marco:
So if you count only the real M cars, there is still...
Marco:
But that's still a couple of years out and it would still be very loud.
Marco:
So, you know, I think I'm out of the BMW line unless I'm willing to go down back to the 3 Series and get basically Casey's car, which is a great car.
Marco:
The one you have is a great car, the 335 E92, E90 Series, whatever it is.
Marco:
Mm-hmm.
Marco:
That is a great car.
Marco:
However, I do like the size and the extra luxuries of the 5 Series.
Marco:
I would miss a lot of that.
Marco:
And also, that car is not incredibly quiet either, but it's not as loud as the M cars.
Marco:
But also, I don't like the F30.
Marco:
I really don't.
Marco:
Tiff's is decent.
Marco:
It's a very good all-arounder, but there's certain things about it I don't like, and I think the regular sedan version of it, it just... I don't...
Marco:
i think it feels cheaper than the e90 series and i it doesn't feel as good i i'm not crazy about it um cmf in the chat pointing out the 550 the 550 x would be the one i would want because i like all the drive um the 550 the problem with that is it is not available in a transmission that i would tolerate um it is only auto and
Marco:
I tips car has, has like the sportiest auto BMW currently sells.
Marco:
Although I haven't tried it.
Marco:
I think the, I think the new seven series has an, it has a slightly sporty one, but it's like nine gears now or something.
Marco:
It's crazy.
Marco:
Um, so like the, the sportiest one that is available that is still automatic.
Marco:
I drive that one all the time in his car and I drive it in automatic mode because manually shifting it sucks.
Marco:
Like it is not, it is no substitute for either a DCT or a real stick.
Marco:
It is no substitute.
Marco:
Um,
Marco:
So I would require either a DCT or a real stick or no gears whatsoever, which is what the electric cars give me.
Marco:
A typical automatic transmission is just not an option for me.
John:
And by the way, on the noise front, if Eddie Q or any other members of the Ferrari board are listening, disregard Marco.
John:
I still want to hear the sound of a flat plane crank V8.
John:
It's not just the volume.
John:
It's like you don't like it because it's loud.
John:
people do like it to be loud but it's also like the sound that it makes like i don't think anybody wants the viper v10 to be loud because it sounds weird because v10 sound weird but a ferrari v8 does not sound weird it sounds like beautiful music and so that's that's what people want not just the sound but a specific sound whether it's a burbling v8 of like a mustang or something which is kind of what your car has which is kind of weird and unseemly that it has the burble uh or the screaming whale of the flat plane v8 and that's that's what we italians want
Marco:
And I like the sound my car makes.
Marco:
I really do like it when I want that kind of thing, but that is almost none of the time that I'm driving it.
Marco:
And actually, I don't like the sound of the new M3.
Marco:
I think the new M3 sounds terrible.
Marco:
I've now heard them in person a few times.
Marco:
And I think they really cranked up the sound of that V6, trying to get it to sound really impressive like the old V8 did.
Marco:
And it just doesn't.
Marco:
The new M3, I think, sounds like a cheap car that somebody put a cheap aftermarket pipe on to sound faster.
John:
Yeah, that's the problem all the cars have, including even Ferrari, because they added the turbos to the whatever the 488 or whatever the new one is that like that tends to muffle some of the sound and that sound that you want is not.
John:
And they Ferrari has struggled mightily to try to get that sound back.
John:
I wonder if like by the time we're, you know, old and gray and grandparents.
John:
that Ferrari will be selling like a throwback model where it's like a normally aspirated V8 with the old geometries and everything just because by then everything will be like electric or hybrid and it'll be impossible to get that sound because it'll all be like tiny small displacement turbo engines like they kind of are now in every other car.
John:
yeah uh and it's like it'll you know like well they start sounding like retro models like this is not a modern car but this is like it's like a scale model or not a scale model like a reproduction so it's got some modern things in it but the powertrain is a complete throwback i don't know if it'll even be legal to sell those in the united states at that point but
Casey:
You could even have this weird transmission where you need three legs in order to operate.
John:
Yeah, like a big silver ball on a big silver stick.
Casey:
Wouldn't that be weird?
Casey:
God, that'd be crazy.
Casey:
To go back to the Tesla, I freaking love that the Model S page on the Tesla website outlining battery performance and drive options.
Casey:
All I see on this page is...
Casey:
5.5 seconds, 5.4 seconds, 5.2 seconds, 4.2 seconds, 3.1 seconds, or if you'd like to pony up for the ludicrous speed upgrade, 2.8 seconds.
Casey:
Like this is how I would choose the car is simply how fast would you like to go?
Casey:
Like how amazing is this?
John:
And by the way, the chat room was like noting like that I made a Spaceballs joke.
John:
I didn't make a Spaceballs joke.
John:
Tesla made it.
John:
These are the actual names.
John:
Insane Mode and Ludicrous Mode are their brand names for these like software update packages or whatever.
John:
Like they are making Spaceballs references, not me.
Casey:
Yeah, it's amazing.
Casey:
I would also like to go on record that I will be completely stunned and will buy you a coffee of your choice, Marco, as much as I hate to say this, if you do not end up with the maximum level Tesla available, because that is the only way you know how to buy things.
Marco:
Well, I definitely would not get ludicrous, you know.
John:
It is still possible.
John:
Well, you say that.
John:
Here's how it would happen.
John:
If the seats that you find the most comfortable are only available in the ones ludicrous, you're getting in the car.
Marco:
Oh, it's so true.
Marco:
If I do get a Tesla, which is looking increasingly likely, but again, I still do want to drive one again before I make that decision.
Marco:
But if I do get a Tesla, it's really, to me, between the 90D and the P90D.
Marco:
I would not get the insane, crazy... I would get insane, but not ludicrous.
Marco:
These names are stupid.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah, to me, the P90D counts.
Casey:
I agree with you that ludicrous speed is pretty much not going to happen.
Casey:
I will agree there.
Marco:
If I bought a new M5, I would not get the competition package, which is a similar kind of price-to-gain ratio there, because that is crazy, and I don't care.
Marco:
I don't need it.
Marco:
The only reason I would go with the P85 or P90D in this case would be...
Marco:
If the 90 really just feels anemic, and I don't think it does.
Marco:
I think the 85 slash 90D is really very similar in performance to the M5.
Casey:
It's similar, but if memory serves, I don't recall the M5 0-60 time off the top of my head, but I believe it is.
Marco:
Something like 4.2 or something.
Casey:
See, I think it's a little quicker than that.
Casey:
Maybe 3.9.
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
See, that's the thing.
Casey:
The 85D is listed at 4.2.
Casey:
And I think you're right.
Casey:
I think the M5 is like just eking it in under four seconds.
Casey:
And I bet you that'll be enough of a difference, as silly as it sounds, that that's going to push you to the P85D.
John:
because because all he'll feel is the instant torque from zero miles an hour like he'll feel the acceleration from zero to 20 and 30 like i said i think the thing the only thing that will drive him to to the big fancy miles is like trim level or option differences right and there really aren't like there you have to go to the p if you want the the spoiler that i think looks bad in person
Marco:
I don't know what the deal is with these spoiler designs.
Marco:
So the problem is the Tesla Model S is kind of like a fat-bottomed car.
Marco:
It's one of those wide bottoms that a lot of large sedans have these days.
Marco:
Big bottom, you're making a spinal tap reference and you don't even know it.
Marco:
Right, exactly.
Marco:
So whatever reference I'm making, it has a wider bottom than the passenger cabin above it.
Marco:
So it kind of looks like a hovercraft almost, like a cushion around the base.
Marco:
And the spoiler is not the full width of the trunk.
Marco:
It almost looks like a mustache almost up there.
John:
Well, you can't get the commercial skipping on the... That's all right.
John:
I feel too bad about it.
John:
They're not going to give that to you in a software update.
John:
They want you to get the whole new model.
Marco:
Yeah, it looks like I can't get the red brake calipers, but I can get everything else.
Casey:
Hugely, hugely important question.
Casey:
I want you to think about this and choose wisely.
Casey:
Will you or will you not get the rear-facing seats?
Marco:
That is a very good question.
Casey:
I'm kind of not kidding because, oh my God, I remember having a wagon when we were kids that had the rear-facing seats, and it was terrible but also delightful.
Marco:
i'm gonna i'm gonna say i'm gonna give a thumbs down on those so we we have some friends with the tesla and they have the rear facing seats and it is really nice if you have to transport a whole bunch of kids around but we don't and i'm probably gonna be getting on a three-year lease and you know it's like within the next three years am i gonna have three more kids probably not
John:
And also, you'd only put the kids you don't really care about back there because that's like the death seat in the case of a rear-end collision.
Marco:
Well, the rumor or the story behind it is that because Elon Musk has a bunch of kids, he made those like the safest seats in the whole car.
Marco:
There's like extra roll cage around it and everything.
Casey:
There's a five-point harness from the looks of it.
Marco:
Yeah, it is.
Marco:
And so they and rear facing is actually statistically safer.
Marco:
That's why car seats for infants are rear face for a while, basically as long as they can be.
Marco:
So the safety is not as much of a concern for me there.
Marco:
The biggest the bigger concern for me is, first of all, that I just wouldn't use them like I don't think I need them.
Marco:
And also, some of the owners who have them say that the biggest problem back there is that there's no HVAC stuff back there.
Marco:
So, it gets really hot because they're sitting under the rear windshield.
Marco:
And, you know, there's some vents that serve the back seats, the regular back seats, but they don't reach all the way back there.
Marco:
So, like, if it's like a hot, sunny day, it's going to be pretty hot back there.
Marco:
It also is just kind of weird when you have to load and unload your kid from your trunk.
Marco:
But...
Marco:
regardless um if i had a really big family i would consider it uh although honestly the model x i think would be a much better way to serve that because it's actually a proper three row car um but uh this yeah for my needs you know i have one kid i can foresee in the next three years having at most two kids total so uh you know i i really don't think i would need more than that um so i'm not going to do the i would not order that
John:
i like the uh someone put in the chat room a youtube video of p85d versus the ferrari 458 and i just assume the ferrari would lose because you know it's an older model ferrari and yeah it's a straight line test obviously you're not doing handling tests in this giant battery but uh yeah so the tesla beats it off the line but you wait a couple seconds the ferrari passes it and i feel better about it i feel all right in the world again
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
No, I mean, and this... You know, I would definitely take this, like, you know, down a little, like, sporty level.
Marco:
Like, I wouldn't get the giant 21-inch wheels.
Marco:
You know, I'd just get the 19s, which are still big.
Marco:
You know, it's just... Yeah, I feel like I've had my, like...
John:
really hardcore sports car i guess well people would question that but i've had my like super sports car phase and i think i'm moving past that now into just okay i want things to still be nice and fast but i also want it to be quiet your super sports car was already an old man's car like the m5 like the 5 series it's already the grandpa car like it wasn't even the m3 like you did have your your 1m i understand like that was kind of that phase yeah i had that for like eight months yeah but you went right to the grandpa it's like you know what i need something with bench seats in the front
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And I will also... So Twilling in the chat is asking so you won't miss shifting.
Marco:
I think I talked about this when I tested the Tesla.
Marco:
But the big thing is the reason I shift is not because I love shifting so much.
Marco:
I enjoy it.
Marco:
It's fun.
Marco:
But I don't really need to shift.
Marco:
The reason I shift my cars now...
Marco:
The reason I drove stick as long as I could and now I drive the DCT and why I don't like automatics ever is because I always know what I want the car to be doing.
Marco:
I always know.
Marco:
And you guys know this because you drive stick.
Marco:
I always, you know, I know that if I'm going to if I'm approaching something where I'm going to stop, I know I can, you know, downshift to do that or whatever.
Marco:
I know what gear I want to be in at any given point.
Marco:
And I know things that automatic transmission can't know.
Marco:
And I can and so like, I always want power to be accessible to me at any speed and I keep the gear such that I can do that, you know, so there's there are things that I really enjoy about being able to control the power delivery of the car through shifting manually.
Marco:
And with the DCT, the reason I don't... Like, I don't miss the clutch at all.
Marco:
The DCT is... A lot of people who haven't driven them might assume that it's like the Tiptronic manual shifting mode of automatic transmissions, and it's not.
Marco:
It really is much more like a clutchless stick.
Marco:
Like, it is really... It behaves a lot more like a stick than it does.
Marco:
It does not behave like an automatic that takes your suggestion sometimes.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
It is great for me because I never cared about the clutch.
Marco:
I just cared about being sure I knew what gear I was in and selecting it and not having it second-guess me and not having nine gears to pick from.
Marco:
So the electric, when I was driving the Tesla on that test drive, the reason I didn't miss having some kind of gear shift ability is because...
Marco:
it was always with power available doing the right thing.
Marco:
It was always doing what I wanted.
Marco:
I never felt the need to manually control it because just the nature of electrics being basically gearless, it was just, it didn't, it removed the need for me to do any of that.
Marco:
So all the reasons why I shift no longer applied and were no longer necessary.
Marco:
Now, there are, you know, I would probably, I would probably still miss it to a certain degree just because it's like this fun activity.
Marco:
You know, you kind of feel like you're doing something manually.
Marco:
It's kind of fun.
Marco:
But,
Marco:
while i was driving the tesla i didn't miss it at all and that is something that i've never been able to say about an automatic even the best automatics even when trying to manually shift them i've never been able to say that for an automatic
Casey:
Yeah, I don't drive DCT cars regularly.
Casey:
In fact, to the best of my recollection, the last DCT car I drove was yours.
Casey:
And I do like it as a two-pedal transmission can go.
Casey:
But there is nothing quite like ripping off a really great 1-2 upshift or a 3-2 downshift while you're turning, while you're braking.
Casey:
There's nothing quite like that.
Casey:
And I'm skeptical my next car will have three pedals because I don't know that whatever car I end up wanting to buy will be available that way.
Casey:
But I'm going to hold on to them as long as I possibly can, and I'm already ruining the day that I'm going to have to give that up.
John:
that's so sad you'll survive i will but i'll be sad about it i'll be you think you'll be sad i'll be the saddest because i well casey did you ever have a non-stick car nope all right well anyway both of us have never had a non-stick car but when you when you when the time finally comes and you can't get the car that you want you're going to get like you know an automated manual essentially
John:
i'm going to be stuck with an actual slush box torque converter automatic or worse a cbt that's what i'm going to be stuck with in the range of cars that i buy they're not going to have a really nice you know snappy automated manual they're going to have a slush box or uh i don't know i won't buy a cbt i just won't like i'll find a different car maybe that can finally push you to to get like the car that you really that you really want
John:
Yeah, I think Hondas do have that on several of their models.
John:
I just don't look at those at all.
John:
But, like, that is the worst.
John:
But, you know, if I bring my car in and they have, like, a loaner car for you to drive or whatever, I just automatically, like, I can't believe people live like this.
John:
I just can't.
John:
I can't take it.
Casey:
Yeah, it's the worst.
Casey:
Like, I drive Erin's car periodically, and I really genuinely like her car.
Casey:
She has a couple generation old now, Mazda 6, and it's a very nice car.
Casey:
But that transmission, oh, God, it's so terrible.
John:
You just, like, you push the pedal, and you just hear the engine.
John:
It's like, what are you doing, engine?
John:
And then you have to figure out, what do I have to do with this pedal to make you understand that you are in the wrong gear right now?
John:
And then it's like, all right, blah, blah.
John:
It is the worst.
Casey:
It is the worst.
Casey:
It is absolutely the worst.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
Automatics, it makes it feel like you're just wasting this good engine.
Marco:
It's like you have this perfectly good engine in there.
Marco:
If you just connect it directly to the wheels, it would work great, but you don't.
Marco:
You have this maple syrup.
John:
It's just in the wrong gear too much of the time because it can't read your mind.
John:
And so the only thing it has is like, well, I can look at all my sensors and all the pedal position and I'll try to figure out what you mean.
John:
And it's like, you don't know what I'm about to take this turn.
John:
I should already be in second gear.
Casey:
Exactly.
John:
I don't even know what gear you're in.
John:
Like, I don't want to have to do something with the controls of the car to convince you to go into second.
John:
You should already be there.
John:
And I would be if I was driving the car, but I'm not.
John:
Especially in cars that have no power like the ones that I buy.
John:
It's really important to...
John:
to be in the right gear otherwise the thing just becomes a slug and then like in the middle of the turn lurches into whatever next gear you're supposed to be in it's just a mess yeah it's god it's rough and and i forget i forget what it's like i think like well you know modern automatic are good and maybe they are like luxury cars and stuff like where it's no they're not i'm telling you they're not like they're just as bad as well not just as bad but they're almost as bad i mean they have like nine gears now on the fancy cars right
Marco:
Yeah, and that's one of the problems, too.
Marco:
Like, if you try to manually shift the automatics now, like, even the, quote, sport automatics, you know, like, TIPS has eight gears.
Marco:
The new 7 Series, I believe, has nine.
Marco:
And the reason that, you know, they do this for increased fuel efficiency, and one of the ways they do this is by cramming a whole bunch of gears at the bottom of the range.
Marco:
So these aren't all, like, additional overdrives.
John:
Yeah, yeah, they're slicing up the entire range to give more granularity.
Marco:
Yeah, and especially, so at the bottom, you have to shift around.
Marco:
You have to, like, where they put gear number eight on Tiff's car is, like, where I would have, it's, like, between, on a regular scale, it's between, like, two and three.
Marco:
which is a really frequently shifted range.
Marco:
And so not only is that annoying when you're manually shifting it, but also when you're just driving it, you do feel that.
Marco:
You feel that it's making more shifts.
Marco:
It's making more transitions than you would have to in a manual.
Marco:
And also to choose fuel efficiency numbers, it always, you know, it tries to jump as fast as it can to the higher gears.
Marco:
And then when you step on it, nothing happens.
Marco:
And, you know, they all have these like, you know, sport modes.
Marco:
And those are all equally terrible just in different ways.
Marco:
It just never does what you want.
Marco:
And that's why we will always drive manual cars as long as we are able to until it is no longer necessary.
Marco:
It's so true.
John:
Oh, we haven't even talked about the Model X. That, I think, is a disaster.
John:
And, like, I don't...
John:
I guess he really wanted those weird doors, but it's like, nope, bad idea, guy.
John:
Like, if you're going to do one with gullwing doors, it should have been the first frivolous one that only rich people got.
John:
Not the second one that you're hoping, like, this is going to be the mainstream one because it's like a stupid crossover SUV and it looks gross.
John:
It's like...
John:
It's not going to be that cheap, and those doors are ridiculous, and just no.
Marco:
No, I don't think the doors are as much of a big deal in either direction as everyone else does.
Casey:
Oh, yeah, you say that, but then you're going to try to pop out quickly.
John:
They are a big deal.
John:
Not because...
John:
Not because they're bad, like you see all the videos of how they like sort of squinch together and try to make room, but because it is really hard to make a door like that reliably.
John:
It's not like there's like we've been making this kind of a door for 75 years, you know, and we know how to make it real.
John:
Hell, it's really hard to make a regular door reliably.
John:
Like just ask Tesla all the, you know, learning, the learning curve and just making a reliable, nice car.
John:
I think they're finally kind of there with the Model S. But this, I mean, nobody has made...
John:
good reliable problem-free gold wing doors and including mercedes like just ask anyone who has one of those cars sometimes the door comes unlatched while you're driving and just got like it's you know i guess maybe they did it better on the the modern version but the original going was was a mess like it's it's there for it to be a fanciful frill but if this is going to be your mainstream car like you know that's going to be the main problem with these cars is stupid crap with the doors and plus you gotta wait an hour for the damn things to open
John:
That part of it is not bad.
John:
And I think the design and saving space is not bad.
John:
It's entirely because this is an exotic, weird design that's going to have problems.
John:
And I know they spent a long time trying to make it reliable, but it's their first try.
John:
It's guaranteed that this will not be as problem-free as a regular card or absolutely guaranteed.
Casey:
None of this is making it in the show, is it?
Casey:
No.
Casey:
We should put this on SoundCloud or whatever we used to do with ATPs before ATP was a thing.
Marco:
But we always think people care, but in reality, nobody cares.
Marco:
They don't.
Casey:
Yeah, whatever.