Your Feelings Are Real
John:
I was looking at something and then it jumped away.
John:
Is that the kind of experience you want to provide me?
John:
Paul Loft said that there is actually a term, just like there is for everything in business, like parking lot and staff org or whatever the hell we're going to talk about.
John:
For the concept I think I described on an earlier show, people in middle management are motivated to make things that are bad not sound quite as bad when they talk to their boss because if you're telling your boss bad news, your boss will be like, well, why is this bad news happening?
John:
Isn't the reason we pay you to make bad things not happen?
John:
um and so as it goes up the management chain say you start with the truth down at the leaf nodes by the time it gets to the ceo what is a disastrous problem doesn't sound so bad and the term for that is green shifting which is a play on red shifting just like you know the galaxies are racing away from us and the wavelengths of light coming from stretch towards the red side of the uh visible light spectrum so all the galaxies are what are the stars and stuff are red shifted green shifting is how things get nicer as they go up the org chart so that's a great term i had not heard it before uh but it's a real thing
John:
i had not heard that either i never heard it you can use it uh you can use green shifting i don't know your org chart at home isn't quite deep enough maybe like when uh hops does something terrible outside like rolls in something gross when you report it to adam you can say oh hops just got a little dirty and then when adam reports at the tip she's at the top of the org chart by the way when adam reports at the tip you could say hops had fun outside and then voila uh hops eating cat poo has been green shifted
Marco:
That honestly pretty much happens like that, I think.
Marco:
That really is very plausible of a situation to happen and how it would be communicated in our household.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
What did Raphael write in?
John:
Oh, this is an interesting take on something that we talked about last episode about, you know, what can Apple can do about software quality and having like Snow Leopard releases where you just work on bugs and stuff.
John:
And the concept of yearly releases came up.
John:
And what I was arguing was like, it's really arbitrary if you're a disciplined software organization, as Apple has become in these last few years.
John:
All you're doing is changing the discipline from like working on something until it's done, but just sticking to a schedule and saying what is in and what is out for that schedule.
John:
And anything that's out gets pushed to the next release and so on and so forth.
John:
And that's fine.
John:
And Raphael gave the example that should have thought of that is true for a lot of the software we use today.
John:
um instead of doing fewer releases how about doing more releases as in continuous release kind of like chrome or these other browsers that they call evergreen that are sort of like mandatory auto updating and you don't really care what the version is like none of us know offhand what chrome version we're on we're on whatever the latest is and chrome updates all the time and it updates whenever the hell it feels like it
John:
um if instead of having yearly releases and saying well that's that's too that's it's too much of a rush make them two year get rid of the whole concept of like this big important release that's worthy of a press release and bullet points and instead just do small incremental changes all the time i think uh jeff atwood had a article about this a couple years ago called the infinite version but it's basically the same thing that most people are familiar with from the world of web browsers where version stops mattering and it's just
John:
the software exists and it continually continuously updates itself and hopefully gets better and that's a different um a different mindset where you're making lots of small changes which are easier to make and the consequences of screwing them up are smaller because then you're sure you then you know what it is screwed it up like if you made one small change and all of a sudden uh you know there was some huge performance regression and some dom operation like happened with chrome 43 um recently and
John:
you know what change did that and you you can a you have the option of just rolling it back because it's just one small change from the previous version and b if you have a better chance of fixing it because you know exactly what small thing it was and so if you make a series of small changes over time it's potentially better for your customers and also better for you in terms of knowing what you've done to screw things up so i kind of like this idea and
John:
looking at the software that we use more and more of it.
John:
I mean, just think of iOS where you started to do updates, uh, apps manually.
John:
Then they became auto updating.
John:
We're not quite at the infinite version for all software available, but moving away from like what I would call marketing releases, where the only reason you have a big thing is it's kind of like a, uh,
John:
like a tradition or a holdover from when you bought things in cardboard boxes and of course there had to be a big deal because you'd have to put a new set of cardboard boxes with new art on the cover like doing yearly digital releases is really just kind of a holdover from that and uh it seems like the trend is away from that and more towards uh continuous releases and i think that i'm intrigued by this idea and uh i like to subscribe to this newsletter
John:
The upside, I said they're only doing these regular releases for marketing purposes, but marketing is not nothing.
John:
If Apple was to move to a continuous release cycle for major products, that means it gives up the perk of being able to make grand announcements.
John:
at wwdc or at some kind of uh press conference where they invite the press out to show them something you can't get that anymore you don't get the big bump in the press you don't get the apple today announced blah blah blah blah blah and maybe they get that less of a software than hardware but that is there is a downside to this um
John:
And part of the reason Apple keeps doing these marketing releases is because it's worth it to them to get the extra hype and publicity and get people excited and seem to make significant progress.
John:
That's a lot of what we love about Apple.
John:
One day they appear and they say, hey, we've got this great idea and look at this new thing.
John:
And we go, ooh, look at the new thing.
John:
If we got that same thing in 700 steps instead of in one big bang, it's less impressive even though we end up at the same spot.
John:
Yeah.
John:
I think that definitely has to be a factor.
John:
I still think it's worth it, but that's a calculus they'd have to do internally if they ever wanted to move to this type of system for software release.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
And Eric Michaels-Ober had some interesting thoughts on iPhone battery thinness.
Marco:
Yes.
Marco:
So last week we were talking about the battery case.
Marco:
And I, of course, complain, as I always do, that the iPhone battery life is not good enough.
Marco:
And one of the theories presented was that maybe the battery case was kind of like Apple feeling out the market for a little more info on whether people really do want more battery life in their iPhones in order to inform future decisions about the iPhone designs.
Marco:
And our friend Eric Michael Zuber wrote in to point out that by this time, the iPhone 7 is almost certainly already completely done and designed.
Marco:
The new iPhone battery case is a signal that the battery life for the iPhone 7 will probably be the same or worse than the iPhone 6 and 6S.
Marco:
If Apple had waited until the inevitably thinner iPhone 7 were released next year to introduce a battery case, the press would have jumped on them, saying it proved battery life in the iPhone 7 to be inadequate.
Marco:
Now, if Apple releases a new battery case for the iPhone 7, Apple battery cases will be old news, because they, of course, just released this one for the iPhone 6.
Marco:
In other words, this is the first Apple battery case, not the last.
Marco:
So all that from our friend Eric Michael Zuber, I think that is pretty much on point.
Marco:
I think he's almost certainly right that the 7 is almost certainly done or close enough to done that they wouldn't be making major changes to things like how large the battery is, because that's a pretty major physical change to a design.
Marco:
I'm guessing this is maybe not quite planned out quite that well, but more like...
Marco:
The battery case seems like a Band-Aid solution.
Marco:
It seems like something that Apple did not expect maybe even one year ago to be making and releasing now, but that they identified a problem slash opportunity and made it to address that, but...
Marco:
I think he's right that they probably are not going to be meaningfully addressing battery life in the iPhone 7.
Marco:
And if they were, they probably wouldn't have released this because the iPhone 7 is going to be out in, you know, what, seven or eight months, nine months.
Marco:
So, you know, Apple's very patient.
Marco:
And so if they were really going to address this problem in the iPhone 7 and give us, you know, a big chunk of battery life improvement, they probably wouldn't release a battery case today.
Marco:
Or at least it would make it a lot less likely that they would.
Marco:
So I think he's right, and I think we're just going to have to live with it, that people who want more battery power are either going to go to the Plus or just use external battery cases or battery packs.
John:
This theory only works if you assume Apple is the only company in the world that makes iPhone accessories.
John:
Battery cases have been a thing forever.
John:
Like I said, there is no additional wait for Apple making a battery case that Apple is saying.
John:
They sell battery cases in their stores.
John:
People use them all the time.
John:
It's a thing.
John:
Apple is just making one of them.
John:
Because it finally got around to making one of them.
John:
Of course the iPhone 7 is going to be thinner.
John:
Like, of course it's going to be.
John:
Like, that's the way it goes, right?
John:
And predicting the battery life will be similar.
John:
Well, it's been similar for many years now.
John:
So that's not a big surprise either.
John:
I just don't make the leap all the way to.
John:
Therefore, releasing this early is a way to avoid appearing to say that the iPhone 7 doesn't have good battery life.
John:
It's going to have the same as the 6, you know, within the 6S within a small margin of error.
John:
And yeah, it's going to be thinner because that's what Apple does with iPhones.
John:
i think it's just uh status quo and a lot of people are pointing out also that like saying oh apple makes a battery case that'll let them know uh more information about who buys battery cases but if they sell them in their stores they already have that information so they could be charting the the battery cases that they sell themselves from third parties just as well as they can be charting their own so i think apple has a pretty good feel of
John:
who wants a battery case and what sizes are the most popular and it just made one for the same reason it makes a leather case and a silicone case and cases for your ipads and all the other accessories they make because it's things that people want to buy and apple will make one for you and you can buy it from them and their margins are probably better than anyone else's because they get good uh pricing on parts and they charge like 10 or 20 more bucks than everyone else for their little logo yeah
Marco:
It is also worth considering the rumors are getting pretty strong.
Marco:
There's a lot of smoke and even some evidence now that there will be a new 4-inch iPhone design soon.
Marco:
We don't know how soon.
Marco:
Maybe it's in the spring.
Marco:
Maybe it's in the fall.
Marco:
Who knows?
Marco:
It doesn't matter that much, to be honest.
Marco:
But there is certainly a lot of smoke by these rumors, so there is very likely to be fire here.
Marco:
This is very likely to be a real thing that is happening, and it makes a lot of sense for them to make a new 4-inch phone.
Marco:
If the rumors are true, the 4-inch phone will have the approximate internals of the iPhone 6S.
Marco:
Now, if you look at any kind of battery life graph for the iPhones, there was actually a noticeable jump from the 5S to the 6.
Marco:
And we saw this for years beforehand with Android phones that were all bigger than all the iPhones.
Marco:
that when you make a big phone, you have room for more battery.
Marco:
The reason why the 6 Plus gets more battery life is because it has a battery that's something like 50% larger than the 6 because there's room for it without making it too obscenely thick or too weirdly heavy for its proportional size.
John:
And it outruns the screen.
John:
The screen got bigger, too, and the screen takes more power, but the more battery outruns, the more screen.
John:
So the bigger you make it, the more the battery wins.
John:
Exactly.
Marco:
So it does look very likely there will be a 4-inch phone, but if we follow that advantage now then backwards, back to making 4-inch phones again, a 4-inch phone with Apple's current priorities for thinness and the expectation, like the 5S is way thicker than the 6, and the 6 still has more battery life than it just because of the ratio of the volume now.
Marco:
They're not going to make a new 4-inch phone that's as thick as the 5S again.
Marco:
It would, of course, be thinner.
Marco:
It would probably be more like the iPod Touch, or not that thin because of radios, but it would probably be more like the 6S thickness, but just in a smaller body.
Marco:
That small 4-inch phone, assuming it's real and assuming it's coming out soon and assuming it has the guts of a 6S...
Marco:
would probably get pretty mediocre battery life, even worse than the 6S, I would guess.
John:
Well, I mean, the other tool that they have at their disposal, which they've been leveraging, is make stuff inside the phone take less power.
John:
So one thing is, obviously, if they do another process shrink on the main system on a chip, that's some savings there.
John:
The other rumor that I've been reading about, that's probably not for the iPhone 7, but it's a thing to think about for the future, is moving to OLED for the screens.
John:
which is another power savings and you know you have to think like what is left is taking power in the phones well there's send and receive for the cell signal which i'm not entirely sure how much you can do about that because at a certain point you have to have a signal of a certain strength just to talk to the towers and stuff right so there's that there's the screen
John:
and there's the increasingly small number of chips on the thing most dominated by the system on a chip and maybe i guess the ram and so you get your biggest bang for the buck of making making the screen take less power making the system on a chip take less power and that's what apple has always been doing uh over time and so that is their tool to perhaps eventually outrun the the you know their their thinness uh you know getting thinner over time right um
John:
um so far they've just been kind of like on this knife's edge and i think you're right that that they're not going to make the the four inch one as big as the 5s and therefore it will probably get worse certainly it will get worse battery life than the 6 6s size phone certainly that will it gets worse than the 5s well it's going to have a way more power efficient system on a chip than the 5s did
John:
But then again, I don't know.
John:
They could underclock it.
John:
They have tools at their disposal to essentially pick the battery life.
John:
But I don't think it's crazy to say that the smaller phone is going to have lower battery life just in general.
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
And that also, if you assume all this to be true that we are speculating on here, that also is more explanation why...
Marco:
Apple would want to get into the battery case market now and kind of get prepared for it.
Marco:
And then when they release a new iPhone 6 minus or whatever, whenever they release this new small phone, then Apple already makes battery cases.
Marco:
And this is a thing that you can do.
Marco:
If you need more battery life than what we offer, it isn't a design flaw.
Marco:
You should just buy this accessory that we make for this phone that will be smart and right there available at launch time.
Marco:
So I think it makes a lot of sense looking at the most likely reasons why they made this battery case.
Marco:
And as we said last week, and as other people have pointed out, and especially our friend John Gruber, it really is not a terrible product.
Marco:
It's just a little bit weird.
Marco:
And it's not that great to look at, and it has a few questionable design aspects to it.
Marco:
But
Marco:
The functionality of it, everyone says, seems to be pretty decent.
Marco:
On that note, I want to do a quick bit of follow-up on my Solo Memo case that I ordered during last week's show on an Impulse buy.
Marco:
I actually got a chance to use it for a few days over the last week.
Marco:
And first of all, it's not MFI certified.
Marco:
So what that means is that Apple has not given it the Made for iPhone stamp of approval.
Marco:
It basically means that Apple has not certified it to be compatible and safe and everything else to use with iPhones.
Marco:
So there's some risk involved here.
Marco:
And if I were using a case every single day, I might reconsider using one that was not MFI certified.
Marco:
And it's weird, like the lightning connector on the inside that it uses to plug into the phone, it's obviously like not a real Apple lightning plug.
Marco:
This is obviously like a knockoff in every way.
Marco:
It's a knockoff.
Marco:
Uh, that's one of the reasons why it is shaped unlike any other iPhone connector I've ever seen, where in the way it kind of like, it kind of like moves the lightning port down.
Marco:
So it charges through lightning, uh, and just, and it has no chin.
Marco:
It's the only battery case I've found that has no chin.
Marco:
Uh, not even Apple's manages to do that, but there's probably some good reason why within the MFI spec, other people can't do that and be MFI certified.
Marco:
Probably something about like, you know, how much stress it can take or what kind of design it has to have or how much thickness something has to be or something.
Marco:
Overall, it is surprisingly thin and light.
Marco:
It is not as thin as the Apple leather case or anything.
Marco:
You do notice that it does add thickness, but it doesn't add a lot of size.
Marco:
And so it actually feels pretty good to use.
Marco:
It does not feel intrusive in the pocket.
Marco:
It's almost like an iPhone 3G slash 3GS plastic.
Marco:
It feels pretty good to grip in the hand.
Marco:
It is dumb, though.
Marco:
So trying another battery case has made me now appreciate what Apple says when they call theirs the smart battery case.
Marco:
This one, you have to turn it on and turn it off manually.
Marco:
It does not turn itself off when the phone reaches 100% or when it's down to zero or whatever.
Marco:
It doesn't do anything smart.
Marco:
It is literally just like you manually apply power to your phone when you feel like it, and then you turn it off when you feel like your phone has charged enough.
Marco:
uh so it is dumb it is cheap it is not mfi certified that being said it does work it is really small and it is really light and it feels good in the hand so i think i'm gonna i'm gonna like bring it to conferences and stuff for the next uh nine months or so until the next phone comes out and uh ask me again how it is after wbdc
Marco:
yeah we'll check your pockets for smoke while you're not paying yeah no i mean the first time i charged it i i was intentionally doing it during a long car ride uh the other day so that i could feel if it was getting too hot like i could feel it easily the best place to have a fire is a moving car you're right that was that was a good plan yeah yeah totally
Marco:
so anyway yeah not not terrible i would say for 50 bucks it is reasonably priced and uh i wouldn't necessarily recommend it just because i'm a little scared that it because it is not certified and because it is it is very knockoffy i'm a little scared of what it might do to someone's phone but i'm willing to take the risk on my own phone so that's that's its usefulness
Marco:
and i i think i would rather carry this than the six plus because it because you know i've determined the six plus to be too large stream most of the time i would rather carry this in the six plus we'll see what happens with the seven design and would you bring this instead of your little uh pocket thing with the little uh attached uh usb cable you know your little pocket bed everything
Marco:
um the pocket battery thing is going to have a much longer life because the pocket battery thing is going to work with the iphone 7 and this won't you know that one and that one's also half the price and a little more capacity up in 3 000 milliamp hours that's the volt ready uh something ultra slim something something with a built-in lightning cable which is awesome
Marco:
That one's $25.
Marco:
And that one, I think, is MFI certified.
Marco:
So I would definitely recommend that one if you're looking for one to buy.
Marco:
But if you want an actual battery case and not a separate thing that you have to carry around and occasionally plug into your phone, this is a decent case.
Marco:
But if you're going to be using it that rarely, I might even say go with Apple just because it's officially supported and a little bit smarter.
Marco:
But I don't regret buying it for my very limited needs out of a battery case because usually I don't use a case, a battery case.
Marco:
And for the few weeks, a year that I really want one, this will probably be fine.
Marco:
But if you're going to use it every day, I would say maybe get an MFI certified one.
Casey:
Yeah, that sounds like a smart idea.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
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Casey:
So what are we really talking about tonight?
Casey:
Do you want to talk about how the Apple TV is making no money for app developers like every other app store on the platforms?
Casey:
Actually, no, no, no.
Casey:
Let me try that again.
Casey:
Would you like to talk about the challenges that are facing Apple TV developers?
Casey:
I'm trying to take a more positive spin on this.
Casey:
So let's talk about this.
Marco:
This is something that, you know, in recent weeks, we've been very critical of some stuff Apple has done.
Marco:
I have heard all year from people calling me out for being too negative about Apple and everything.
Marco:
And we've gotten a little bit of that with the whole show.
Marco:
It's been a lot on me, though.
Marco:
And that's fair, because I have been very negative about Apple.
Marco:
And I wanted to kind of explain a little bit about why.
Marco:
So this Tux Arcade article that came out about two weeks ago, editor's note to the popular games in the Apple TV app store making $100 a day or less, a worrying trend appears.
Marco:
And the whole article is, I mean, it's pretty ranty and it isn't all fair criticism, but there is a lot of fair criticism in it.
Marco:
And I think it's worth considering for both Apple, not that they will care or read it, but for both Apple and for Apple developers like us, it is worth considering some of these things and kind of how that relates to
Marco:
Apple negativity.
Marco:
And there was also a really good episode of Control Walt Delete, which is a podcast with Neil Patel and Walt Mossberg.
Marco:
There was an episode, I think this week I'll link to in the show notes, about being disappointed with modern tech and being burnt out on where modern tech is going and whether we're in a slow period of true innovation.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And so I think all this kind of combines with what I perceive with Apple's current problems of just there's a lot of stuff that's at like a 1.0 state or that's being pretty clearly neglected for a long time.
Marco:
I think what has happened is we had such massive years of advancement over the last decade, so much advancement, even the last two decades, really.
Marco:
There's been so much advancement in computing, so much advancement in the web, in phones, in apps, and how we compute, what we compute on, all the various options we have, how good the hardware is, how good the software is, how good the services are.
Marco:
We have made tremendous strides.
Marco:
But I think over the last, I don't know, three to five years, I think we have picked so much of the low-hanging fruit already in technology that, yes, there are things we can keep doing to keep making things better and to keep uncovering new ground, but I think it's getting harder, and the number of
Marco:
asterisks that you have to accept on everything, it seems to be getting larger.
Marco:
Because again, we've done so much of the easy stuff already, and that's not to say there isn't anything left to do, but I think the gains are going to be harder to get.
Marco:
So for example, if we narrow this down, this is obviously a big sprawling feeling that's hard to nail down.
Marco:
So let me focus it down for now to the Apple product line.
Marco:
we are now at the point where the hardware is so capable that we are mostly just limited by like dumb physical attributes.
Marco:
How big are we willing to make the thing so that we can have a screen that's big enough to see or touch or keyboard that's big enough to actually use?
Marco:
I think what we're seeing is like...
Marco:
Once we start pushing these boundaries of, well, what if we want to do more on our iPads?
Marco:
Or what if we want to make our laptops even smaller and even lighter?
Marco:
What if we want to compute on our wrist?
Marco:
We keep having to add these asterisks.
Marco:
In order to compute on our wrist, we had to have this weird little computer with this weird interface on it that...
Marco:
can do some things, but is really slow and is kind of nice for some things, but has to work over Bluetooth, which is really unreliable.
Marco:
And there's all this weird stuff.
Marco:
What we see with laptops is, oh, well, you wanted to push it so small and so light and so thin that now it has to be really slow and we have to get rid of all the ports, which do occasionally come in handy.
Marco:
And also the keyboard has to be this really controversial, very ultra thin design that has a lot of problems for a lot of people.
Marco:
And with the iPad Pro, this is this amazing device for people who do productive work on their iPad, but
Marco:
It's so big that you kind of can't hold it like you used to hold an iPad, and you might not be able to do a lot of things that other iPads can do very easily with it because it's so big.
Marco:
And so we're starting to hit these areas in which we're just hitting trade-offs left and right.
Marco:
Like, everything has asterisks on it.
Marco:
Everything has exceptions.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
In the olden days, we would have a smaller number of more generalized products.
Marco:
You know, you would have a Mac.
Marco:
And whether you got, like, an iBook or a Power Mac G5, they could do roughly the same kinds of things.
Marco:
It would just, like, you know, how fast do you want it?
Marco:
How much space do you need?
Marco:
That kind of stuff.
Marco:
Now...
Marco:
we're getting these products that are differentiated not by minor spec details like that, but by massive differences in how they can be used, what they can do, what they can't do, or what they're really difficult to do with...
Marco:
And so it just seems like we're fragmenting everything.
Marco:
In the process, we're starting a lot of things with weird 1.0s.
Marco:
We are ignoring a lot of other things because it's too much to manage.
Marco:
We're kind of ignoring the old and boring stuff.
Marco:
So there is a lot being lost here.
Marco:
And now it's to the point where people have to struggle to figure out how to do basic things on the newest hardware that we have that we were able to do on computers years ago because the newest hardware is so much better in certain ways that it's really compelling to carry or to use or whatever.
Marco:
I feel like we are now at a point where there are so many trade-offs being made to achieve what we think is next, to achieve where we want to go next or the kind of hardware we want to be carrying around and using constantly.
Marco:
there are so many trade-offs now that in a lot of ways a lot of things are just getting worse or more cumbersome or more complicated um or kind of less baked and we're seeing weird products like these weird like laptop tablet hybrids that are trying to cross these lines and kind of not doing a great job of it oftentimes and
Marco:
And I don't know, it feels like there's a lot of weirdness in the product line.
Marco:
There's a lot more saying no to things you can do with these products rather than like, as I said before, you go buy a computer and anything you can do in the world of computing, you can do on a computer before.
Marco:
Now that's no longer the case.
Marco:
In the early days of smartphones, you go and you buy the iPhone, and you have the best smartphone, period.
Marco:
Like, that was it.
Marco:
Now, it isn't so simple anymore.
Marco:
Now, do you also want an iPad or not?
Marco:
Do you also want a watch or not?
Marco:
There's so much variation now.
Marco:
And in some ways, that's good.
Marco:
You can specialize.
Marco:
You can make amazing hardware for certain roles.
Marco:
But in so many other ways, we are forced to make all these trade-offs that we didn't have to make before.
Marco:
And anyway, this is all very long and rambly, but getting back to it, the reason why I keep criticizing stuff when I feel that it's warranted, when I feel like it's important...
Marco:
It's because this is where I do everything.
Marco:
This is my life.
Marco:
This is my hobby.
Marco:
This is my work.
Marco:
This is my career.
Marco:
I do everything.
Marco:
Everything I do, I do with Apple products and with my computer, with my phone, with all this stuff.
Marco:
When anything about them gets worse or when the future of them gets called into question, I don't want to go to desktop Linux or Windows.
Marco:
This is where I get my work done.
Marco:
So I get very defensive of them.
Marco:
And...
Marco:
When I see Apple spreading themselves very thin, trying to do all these different things to try to figure out what the next version of computing is so that they can dictate that and own that and figure that out, I'm sitting here with my version of computing that has worked great for decades and I get a little defensive of it.
Marco:
And I get worried when the stuff I use becomes less reliable or less good or stops working at the expense of trying to push forward this new world here that I think is really trying to... I don't know.
Marco:
It's like trying to extract oil shale.
Marco:
It's like we pumped all the easy oil back forever ago.
Marco:
Now we have to get all this weird oil out of shale and stuff.
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
This is a very long rambly argument.
Marco:
I should just cut this entire thing.
Marco:
What do you guys think?
Marco:
I mean, is there anything to what I'm saying here or am I just totally lost or old?
John:
I think you need a new thought technology, as they say.
John:
Not a new one.
John:
It's a thought technology we all already have.
John:
It just needs to be applied in a new context.
John:
And this is going more meta than maybe you are, but...
John:
If you ever find yourself thinking or saying a thing that you know that people have been thinking or saying for the entire recorded history of humanity, it doesn't mean that you're wrong or that you're right.
John:
But it does mean that you have to remember to sort of check yourself by saying, all right, I know, just to give an example, I know for a fact that
John:
uh that people are always saying the kids these days that every generation thinks that the kids are like lazier than they are right and that when i was a kid i learned how to you know uh do latin in school and the kids these days don't and whatever like we all know that right and so if we ever find ourselves saying you know is it true am i out of touch no it's the children who are wrong um if we find ourselves saying that
John:
because we know that people always say that we check ourselves and say okay it doesn't mean that i'm wrong it could be that the kids these days do have a problem and or whatever but i have to be really really skeptical when i have that feeling because there's a reason everyone always has that feeling because everyone gets old and they see the kids and kids do things differently than they do and they think the kids are lazy and and not as good as they were and should and that you had it harder than the kids do you know what i mean like we all know that one there is an equivalent of
John:
you know, repeating thought or historical fact or sort of feeling about the world in lots of different contexts.
John:
And you, Marco, I think I've hit on one of them, which is computing used to be simpler.
John:
We had PCs and even in the smartphones, we had smartphones and there was one of them and it was the best one.
John:
And whatever trade offs were inherent in that device, it didn't matter because there was no other iPhone you could get because that was the iPhone.
John:
And PCs were general purpose.
John:
And there was a long period of time where the PCs just got faster and better.
John:
They got more memory, more CPU, more disk.
John:
and laptops got smaller but not so small that they started to have size compromises and they got faster and better and you know from black and white to color screens and like it was just such a logical normal progression and part of the reason it seemed normal was because we were in the age when things are changing like we were growing up during that time and anything that happens when you're growing up you know it's the old saying i think it's douglas adams or somebody over like
John:
Whatever technology exists when you're born, you think is normal.
John:
Whatever technology is invented before you're 30, you think is great.
John:
And anything invented after you're 30, you think is an abomination, unnatural abomination.
John:
Right.
John:
So that feeling you're getting is totally real.
John:
But because everybody always has that feeling.
John:
Every generation before has that feeling about everything, whether it's the automatic transmission or the wheel or the horseless carriage or television versus radio or radio versus going to the theater or the mass is not in Latin anymore or whatever it is, or the amazing variety of clothes that we have to choose from.
John:
When I was a boy, we just had one pair of pants and one shirt like everything.
John:
You have to reexamine everything you're feeling about this in the context of your own life and your own progression through this.
John:
And it's like, is this just a natural part of getting older or is this a natural part of a market getting older?
John:
Because like some markets are mature and kind of stay the same.
John:
Like, for example, mechanical watches, not a lot of motion there, just fashion moving back and forth.
John:
And some markets are much more dynamic, like technology that are changing all the time.
John:
uh and like i said this doesn't mean that you're wrong about uh you know apple being in a period where they're like either overextended or doing weird things or making different trade-offs or perhaps not picking the best uh balance of the product line especially as far as you're concerned or whatever but it does mean that at the very least every time you have these feelings just like if you had the feeling about the kids these days you have to
John:
examine it in that context honestly and even if you're not going to examine it at the very least voice the fact that you know this is a cliche and it could be it could be that you're totally misleading yourself or whatever um and i think that will go a long way towards getting to the heart of what is really going on because the feeling is real like feeling is 100 real but it's when you draw from that feeling to the conclusions that you have to be careful especially and i think especially and then we're getting back to specifics more when in the case of apple
John:
You find your way through a series of logical leaps to some sort of maliciousness or bad motivation, whether it be greed or carelessness or, you know, whatever it may be.
John:
Because most of the time, as we all know, like things, it's very easy to jump to conclusions about, you know, maliciousness and really it's just...
John:
an unfortunate series of events or a product that's not actually made for you or you don't have all the information available or all those other explanations because, you know, in the grand scheme of things, Apple is not a super evil company.
John:
And it's true that you can have a company full of really good people that nevertheless does things that are bad.
John:
But we all know Apple well enough that I really have a hard time believing the most craven theories about why Apple does anything, especially without any actual evidence other than
John:
it seems like this is the type of thing they would do because i'm mad about the fact that the product lines are changing um and getting even more specific i think with the trade-offs and the products like i think it's just a natural diversification of this type of product line if you just look at any other business where you start off with something simple even just a model t that comes in one color
John:
And look at the variety of crazy things we have now.
John:
Did you see... What was it?
John:
The... Not the M6.
John:
The 6... The X6M.
John:
It's the M version of the stupid XBMW.
John:
What is that called?
John:
Yeah, the X6M.
John:
It's like zero to 60 in three seconds.
John:
It's like a... It's like an SUV that's as fast as...
John:
It just doesn't make any sense as a car.
John:
Like, they make completely nonsensical things, and it's like, oh, I liked it better when we just had the Model T, and that was the car you could get.
John:
You can get a Panamera.
John:
You can get that... I still don't know the other car.
John:
The X6M.
John:
You can get a Miata with a Fiat body on it.
John:
I mean, you can get...
John:
all manner of crazy things in cars and it's like it was much simpler when it was just like one or two cars it was but this is not how the market goes and now it's like now i have to pick which trade-offs do i want do i want a minivan or do i have to get this car but i can't fit as many kids in it but then this has seats but they're small back seats but it doesn't go as fast as this car it's like yeah that's just the natural progression of any market it's going to spread like that and it may be uncomfortable because we were used to especially i said a weird period of time when we grew up during computers that when they were
John:
basically the same but better every year it was just such a clean win it would be nice if things continue that way nice in terms of our comfort but probably not the right thing to do for the market anyway i'm not this is not like i said this is not to dismiss all your criticisms because i have criticisms of apple too we all do only to make a comment on how
John:
how i think we all have to look at the things that are legitimately upsetting us about the technology probably you know in the grand scheme of things who cares right but the technology products that we're thinking about and buying and like you said because you use them for your work and it does have an effect on you an actual real effect it's not all academic um and there's nowhere else to go like well you don't know that because you just don't even try that for all you know android can be awesome
John:
i'm i'm thinking more on the desktop like well all right you could be right there maybe linux i can't even say it all right so windows 10 windows 10 might be good casey likes other windows you can put them on the side of the screen if you don't know how to manage windows no i mean i i think first of all i i think you're right i mean this this is why everyone loves you because you're able to see through all of our emotions and bs arguments and and and call it what it is so i i think you're right
John:
emotions are real going back from just this whole show is just a series of erotic references and simpsons references that you don't get emotions are real like it's not it's not to say it's not to say that like oh dismiss the emotion like those are real you your feelings are real and legitimate and i want to validate them right it's just it's like what you how you act on them and what conclusions you might draw and all i'm saying is to be skeptical when those thoughts fall into common patterns that we know are kind of anti-patterns it doesn't mean that you're wrong it just means like use that as a tool to churn through them
Marco:
No, I mean, that's fair.
Marco:
I think part of what I'm feeling is that I really do think Apple has more quality problems now than they used to.
Marco:
I really do think that they are spread more thin than they used to be.
Marco:
And I really do think that their new products are not nearly as big of hits or as clean of wins as their previous products.
Marco:
But I think also it's that, as you mentioned, it used to be so much simpler.
Marco:
For a while there...
Marco:
I would get excited about almost anything Apple did because almost anything they did was potentially for me.
Marco:
Whereas now, like, you know, right now, everything's all hyped up about iPad Pro and the Apple TV because those are the newest things.
Marco:
And the kind of products I use, like the biggest, most powerful, most expensive desktops and the biggest laptops don't get updated very frequently in meaningful ways.
Marco:
The Mac Pro hardly ever gets touched.
Marco:
The 15-inch MacBook Pro is actually due for an update pretty soon with Skylake, and I'm sure they're going to make it thinner and lighter and with less battery life and everything, and that'll be fine, and I'll probably buy one eventually.
Marco:
So, you know, the kind of products that I like just are kind of out of the PR cycle right now, and the kinds of products... Like, the iPad is very frustrating to me because I always want to really get into the iPad, and it just never sticks for me.
Marco:
I never can do what I need to do on it.
Marco:
and i hear other people able to incredibly awesomely freely work on their ipad pros and get most most or all of their work done on the ipad and i feel like i'm living in on another planet here because i i just can't do that and i'm afraid of you know that i'm being the old fogey here who's gonna get overrun by all these young people using ipads and and being able to i don't know glide above me with their wonderful big light aircraft carriers that are the giant ipads but
Marco:
I think back to a time in college, I had a professor who's still there named Gregory Kaffhammer at Allegheny College.
Marco:
I noticed in his office that he was using desktop Linux.
Marco:
And I asked him, why don't you use Windows?
Marco:
Why are you using Linux to do all this stuff?
Marco:
Why are you not using Windows like the rest of the world?
Marco:
Wouldn't that be more useful?
Marco:
And he said, I don't use Windows because I can't get any of my work done on Windows.
Yeah.
Marco:
And at the time, that seemed like the most ridiculous statement I had ever heard.
Marco:
And I thought, wow, what a huge nerd this guy is.
Marco:
Like, I can't believe... How could he not get his... Like, how can he get his work done on Linux?
Marco:
Now, looking back on it, he was totally right.
Marco:
And, you know, Linux really was the best platform to get all of his work done.
Marco:
And now, if I say, what is the best platform to get my work done?
Marco:
It is very clearly Mac OS X. Like, no question, it's Mac OS, right?
Marco:
And...
Marco:
The reason I don't use Windows and the reason I don't use Linux is that I could not get any of my work done on those platforms.
Marco:
Now, my work might change over time.
Marco:
Obviously, if I stop making iOS or Apple ecosystem apps, then I could probably work very well on Linux because then I wouldn't need Xcode.
Marco:
But the difference in if you're using desktop Linux, I feel like you have some kind of ownership over that where because it is so open source and weird and
Marco:
and fragmented that kind of keeps it healthy it's kind of like you know not having a monoculture as much whereas in the apple world like one company controls my entire work environment my entire work and hobby life one company controls all of that and also they seem like it's no longer really top of their radar anymore
Marco:
And that's a little bit scary to me.
Marco:
And so part of my reaction against everyone thinking they can get all their work done on the iPads is kind of a defensive position of like, wait a minute, I can't get my work done on the iPad.
Marco:
And also all this focus on the iPad is possibly costing the platform that I do get my work on attention and maybe its future.
Marco:
And that feels threatening.
Marco:
And obviously that's not a good position to be in, to feel that way or to feel threatened by that.
Marco:
Obviously that's partially defensive and irrational and partially old man get off my lawn kind of stuff.
Marco:
But it is certainly a feeling that I think is worth recognizing.
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
What do you guys think?
Casey:
So I think the problem that you and I have is that even though you said you kind of switched the Apple ecosystem in 2004, is that right?
Marco:
That's right.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
So for me, it was, I believe, 2008.
Casey:
And I think the problem that you and I are wrestling with is that maybe less than 2004, but certainly in 2008, when I became an Apple user, that
Casey:
Things were just getting better and better and better and better in pretty much every measurable way.
Casey:
I'm sure if you were to go back to listen to podcasts from 2008 or 2009, we would have found something to complain about because that's what nerds often do.
Casey:
But...
Casey:
With hindsight, I feel like it's fairly clear that things were just getting so much better, so much quicker.
Casey:
We were on this hockey stick of awesome, just going up and up and up and up.
Casey:
And I remember being very happy about Snow Leopard and Snow Leopard came at the right time because I felt like that's when things were starting to get a little shaky.
Casey:
And then Snow Leopard came and, to my recollection, fixed a lot of the problems.
Casey:
And...
Casey:
I think that the last year or so, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, is the first time that I, and I presume you, Marco, have had to deal with an Apple that maybe isn't firing on all cylinders or isn't doing what we want it to do, which comes back to what John was saying earlier.
Casey:
Maybe this isn't for us after all.
Casey:
And I think back to, like, the 2008 era, and I don't feel like they ever... I don't think at that point they really had any terribly strong competition in the mobile space.
Casey:
And I think anyone who paid even the least bit of attention would realize, wow, their computers are so much better than anything PC had... Anything that Microsoft would have touched.
Casey:
And...
Casey:
And it was so obvious that Apple was so much better in almost every measurable way.
Casey:
And it was funny because at the time, I remember saying to friends, you know, I hope that Android gets better.
Casey:
And I hope that Windows Phone, Mobile 6, Metro, whatever it was called.
Marco:
Pocket Edition.
Casey:
Pocket Edition.
Casey:
I hope that takes off because I want Apple to have competition.
Casey:
I want them to.
Casey:
to have to work for it because i don't want them to get complacent and looking back on it i almost wonder if that wasn't what we wanted because granted apple shouldn't be complacent now and perhaps isn't complacent but at the time i feel like they were so far ahead of the competition that they could meander their way into something awesome and
Casey:
casually.
Casey:
Whereas today, I don't know if I would go so far as to say that they're playing catch-up, but things are not quite so simple anymore.
Casey:
And I think, Marco, you had said earlier, it was one of you guys that said earlier, you know,
Casey:
Android phones are pretty darn good now.
Casey:
That wasn't me.
Casey:
Well, fair enough.
Casey:
So they've gotten a lot better anyway.
Casey:
And so a lot of the ways in which Apple was a clear and obvious winner, they may not be the clear and obvious winner anymore.
Casey:
And so I feel like where they used to be paving the racetrack half the length of track ahead of all the race cars...
Casey:
Now they're like yards ahead of the race cars, and I think it's starting to show.
Casey:
And so I think what we're wrestling with, and I'm hoping John will provide some historical context here as soon as I shut up, is this is the first time that you and I have seen an Apple that maybe has sputtered a little bit.
Casey:
It may not be as bad as us three curmudgeons make it out to be, but I think we can all agree that
Casey:
they're sputtering a little, a little bit, just a little bit.
Casey:
And it's hard for you and I to deal with that because we're not used to that.
Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
So going back to what I started out wanting to talk about with this Tux Arcade article about the Apple TV App Store apparently doing pretty poorly so far.
Marco:
It does seem like one of the problems that Apple is facing now is that...
Marco:
even Apple seems to be trying very, very hard to replicate their earlier successes and not really hitting them.
Marco:
And so the article is talking about, from the point of view of developers and the app stores, and saying that basically that not a lot of people are having success in the non-iPhone and iPad app stores.
Marco:
So the Watch and the Apple TV and maybe the Mac, I don't know if this even talks about the Mac, but certainly the Watch and the Apple TV, like the new ones...
Marco:
I would even extend that to say probably the iPad.
Marco:
I mean, we'll see.
Marco:
Right now, the iPad Pro is out.
Marco:
It's a good time for selling decent iPad software right now.
Marco:
And the iPad Pro will have momentum.
Marco:
It is a very compelling product to a lot of people, so it will succeed.
Marco:
It will have momentum.
Marco:
It'll do well in the holiday season, and it'll probably do well for the next year or so.
Marco:
But then what?
Marco:
Because we saw what happened with previous iPad software, which was basically...
Marco:
It did okay for a while, but then it was very hard for developers to justify putting a lot of time into the iPad versions of their apps.
Marco:
And there's always going to be certain apps where it always makes sense.
Marco:
But I'm talking more generally like more apps, general purpose apps, general productivity or browsing or social or whatever kind of apps that people tend to want to use on their modern computing devices.
Marco:
The iPad historically has been...
Marco:
pretty far behind in a lot of those areas because it just hasn't been worth developers putting a lot of time into it.
Marco:
The sales didn't usually support it, while the iPhone always did very well.
Marco:
So in this article, they're basically making the same argument that all these new app stores keep coming out from Apple, and Apple keeps wanting developers to make all this great stuff for these new devices and new platforms.
Marco:
But
Marco:
it doesn't seem to be working very well.
Marco:
It doesn't seem like it's worth developers' time to put much into those things.
Marco:
And that's a shame because these are platforms that have incredible potential if it's realized, but it's just not.
Marco:
This article is citing very, very low sales figures for these apps.
Marco:
I can just tell anecdotally talking to my developer friends and seeing my own numbers from the watch and stuff, it really does seem like
Marco:
Developing for the watch of the TV at this point is probably not a great use of limited amounts of time.
Marco:
Developing just for the iPhone is probably a pretty safe bet for most apps, unless they really need a big canvas or they really need a TV version or something.
Marco:
It seems like Apple had this great success with the iPhone.
Marco:
Everything they've done since then has been trying to recreate that kind of success.
Marco:
Obviously, the cell phone market is very different with things like subsidies and just the pocketability and everything.
Marco:
They're never going to exactly reproduce the iPhone success.
Marco:
But they at least want to get, I don't know, in the ballpark with an order of magnitude, maybe.
Marco:
And I think they're having trouble replicating their own success.
Marco:
And from the angle of developers, like what this is talking about, I think one of the problems here is that...
Marco:
Apple, with the success of the iPhone and with the early success of the iPad, although not the later success, but with the success of those two platforms and mostly the iPhone, Apple developed this level of closed-offness and arrogance towards developers that... I don't know if they always had it.
Marco:
I wasn't an Apple developer before that point, but...
Marco:
But certainly with the App Store era here, it seems like they have developed almost a hostility.
Marco:
In many ways, it is hostility.
Marco:
In certain ways, it's not.
Marco:
The open sourcing of Swift is solid and a really good move.
Marco:
But in many ways, the actual experience of being an Apple developer, especially if you're reliant on the app stores, if you're on anything but the Mac, the actual experience of being an Apple developer is pretty hostile at most times.
Marco:
If you look at every other company in the industry, every other company that has a platform that they need apps to be built on,
Marco:
They are all, with the possible exception of Amazon, because they're just horrible, but besides Amazon, other companies try to attract developers to their platform.
Marco:
They tend to make things nicer for developers.
Marco:
They tend to actively recruit developers and try really, really hard to get developers to their platforms.
Marco:
Apple tries to get developers to their platforms the way New York tries to get people to move here.
Marco:
It's just barriers and brick walls and taxes and downsides.
Marco:
Apple basically says, please don't be a developer here.
Marco:
Because for the iPhone, they didn't have to go out and beg developers to come develop for their platform.
Marco:
Developers were knocking the door down.
Marco:
Apple has been able to be carried by that all this time, that attitude of being in the maximum position of power, not needing to really be nice for developers to work with at all for the iPhone.
Marco:
But for their other platforms, they're having these problems.
Marco:
The other platforms, developers aren't knocking the doors down.
Marco:
And I feel like Apple doesn't really know how to manage that situation.
Marco:
They don't even know how to attract developers who don't already want to be there.
Marco:
They certainly are not set up for it with the store or developer relations or any of these departments that so far have not really needed to do this, at least in the last decade.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And I feel like they don't even know how to solve this problem.
Marco:
And part of it is not their problem to solve.
Marco:
Part of it is a market problem of like, well, they got to get more of these devices out there and get people to buy more apps on them.
Marco:
But a big part of it is like Apple's developer approach in general, the app stores themselves and the app store policies are all really fighting against developer adoption on these new platforms.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
I feel like this is one major way in which Apple is stumbling now.
Marco:
And I don't see an end in sight to the way they currently do developer relations and the app stores.
Marco:
And so therefore, I don't think the Apple TV and the watch are going to really do well app-wise.
Marco:
And I'm worried about the iPad Pro once the current newness of it dies down, which is probably only going to be in like six months.
Marco:
Once that dies down, I worry about...
Marco:
the health of the software ecosystems on these platforms because it seems like Apple does not know how to manage that.
John:
you should feel okay about the ipad i think because like in big picture type stuff of you know having used apple stuff since 1984 or not use mac stuff since 1984 and apple apple 2 is before that and everything um there is an overall arc to this market that i talked about like that you know personal computers became a thing in in my lifetime anyway and for a while they uh
John:
had a steady stream of improvements obvious improvements to a basic form called the personal computer and around about the time laptops started to become a thing that one solid form which was basically a keyboard a box and a monitor plus or minus the monitor being connected to the box or whatever and just getting better every year floppy disks that yeah well that that sort of it became more diverse like the tree started to
John:
And it's getting more branchier as we go here.
John:
So that's diversifying.
John:
So there is that overall arc.
John:
But still, within that overall arc, like you said, there's the ups and downs of Apple.
John:
There's the ups and downs of the industry.
John:
There's lots of other things going around.
John:
If you've seen more than one of those cycles, it starts to not feel as panicking.
John:
And you can just say, well, this isn't as bad as it was when the Mac came out and was better than every other computer in the world and nobody bought it.
John:
Certainly they didn't have that problem with the iPhone and even the iPad to that degree.
John:
But really what I think you should feel good about like for the iPad, for example, is we were tweeting recently a couple days ago about all these stories of like elementary school teachers in computer labs having the young kids come into computer labs and be throwing the mice around because they had no idea what they were.
John:
Right.
John:
Because this is a generation of children that is brought up with phones that are like the iPhone and with tablets.
John:
And some of these kids, even if there was a PC in their house with a mouse attached to it, probably had never had any occasion to use it, had no attraction to it.
John:
were you know were asking to grab their parents iphone to play games on it if they didn't have one of their own and if they were if they were lucky enough to have like a hand-me-down ipad or some kind of tablet would do stuff on that the personal computer as a thing to to the upcoming generation is i mean and any you know the mouse example is because like if they did have a pc it was probably a laptop and probably had a trackpad another thing that's not a mouse so
John:
doesn't really matter in the grand generational scheme of things uh if this entire generation thinks of either doesn't think of computers or basically thinks of them as tablets it doesn't mean apple's going to win the market for tablets but it does mean that every every kid born into a world where they touch screens on their phones and their tablets that's how they do everything has no attachment to the pc as a thing they're going to be uh you know when they're an old professor and
John:
they're going to be like professor why do you have this stupid tablet that you touch on your thing like why why don't you use vr headset and he's like i only i can get my work done is on this tablet and then it's like why don't we use vr headsets but everyone else uses this stupid using a tablet right that's a silly example but i'm just picking things out of half that we can relate to right that the job of the company like long the long-term health of the company is to try to figure out what the next thing is and be there and apple did a pretty good job with the ipad doesn't mean apple's going to win the future sort of you know
John:
was lucky enough to both invent the future with the iphone you say hey guys this is what a smartphone should be like and everyone's like everyone else was like oh yeah no you're totally right and then here we are today um and they still did well uh apple essentially uh invented the the future as we know like this is what a modern guise looks like we've got like menus and dragon files around doing all this stuff and
John:
uh and they more or less popularized that but didn't win that market someone else came and said yeah those are great ideas now and microsoft microsoft said but we'll take those and run with it and uh we're going to do better than you in every other way so you're going to be a footnote in in that type of race um so
John:
when i think about all these markets that you're talking about for like selling apps to the ipad and how is the ipad pro going to do how's the television can do or whatever i think the most important thing is to make sure that apple is wherever these various markets are going tv attach boxes are a thing and apple's a little behind there but they still have to be there tablets are a thing mostly because apple made them a thing mostly because apple made the smartphone a thing and apple is also there and is kind of still in the race um
John:
So I'm not as really pessimistic about all these things because Apple may not be the clear winner in all these categories, but it is reasonably well positioned.
John:
And the other thing that comes to mind, historically speaking, is whenever I hear Apple fans start to talk like Microsoft fans of old or think like it, the old Microsoft fandom...
John:
When Microsoft ruled the world and Apple was a footnote and Windows was everywhere and the PC was just a plain old PC and that would never change and Microsoft would live forever.
John:
There was a mindset that any market that Microsoft entered, they would win and that Microsoft must enter every market.
John:
and that's unhealthy thinking like the iphone is a phenomenal success and then it's like well if they if they if if apple enters the tv market the assumption is a they want it to be as successful as the iphone not monetarily but you know in terms of like it is as successful of all the tv boxes apple makes the best one everyone agrees and they sell a lot of them and they make a lot of money you know what i mean
John:
um that they need to to be the leader in that market be the best and then it needs to be super successful and it's impossible to do that but it doesn't mean apple shouldn't be in those markets so i think it's okay for apple to enter a market or dip its toe in a market or noodle around in a market for a really long time like with the tv boxes
John:
or even tablets for that matter, because it's important for them to be there to figure out what that's about and to try to improve and try to be well positioned if and when something takes off, which is why Apple also has to do a VR thing, maybe why they're making a car.
John:
But I don't get bent out of shape thinking about it's a real problem if people don't make lots of watch apps.
John:
maybe watch apps as we as they are currently conceptualized are not even worth doing in which case it would like what are you winning as like a pyrrhic victory you're on the top of a little tiny hill like we are the king of watch apps it's like no one cares about watch apps it's not important you it's a waste of time like don't like don't try to force it uh allow the markets to be what they're going to be and in particular for the tv apps what i think about is
John:
Is that a place where people make software and sell it for money?
John:
That's a model that has worked on the app store and on the PC before.
John:
But on television, I think of all the apps that I use and it's like I pay money to Netflix and Netflix needs to have an Apple TV app, but I don't pay money for the Netflix app.
John:
I pay money to HBO and HBO needs to have an Apple TV app, but I don't pay money.
John:
for the HBO like you know what I mean it's like a value add or something that just has to be there but it's not a situation in which someone writes software and sells it to me for money it is merely just a way to receive the content that I pay a subscription for you know what I mean that is kind of how every game console works though
John:
well you know why am i telling you this i know does does apple have to try to compete with game consoles like they're they're figuring that out like is this the future of gaming or is it not the future of gaming if it is apple's reasonably positioned if it's not if you can't you know if the traditional console model is still has legs and apple doesn't want to compete there and like and why would apple want to compete there that that is an old model that works but it is certainly not like the future right uh so
John:
Anyway, I'm I think I'm just more chill about these things and that I don't see every move that Apple makes into a new market is like a desperate ploy and that I must be down on it if it's not successful, because almost nothing is going to be as successful as the iPhone.
John:
Almost nothing is going to be successful as the PC conceptually, not the Mac specifically.
John:
But the PC was an amazing success.
John:
Apple did not share in most of that success.
John:
But how often do you get those things?
John:
You've got the PC, you've got the automobile, you've got movable type, you've got the wheel, you've got the smartphone.
John:
Like, we don't know what the next one of those things is going to be.
John:
Tablets could just be an extension of the smartphone.
John:
Maybe VR is the next one.
John:
Maybe it's not.
John:
I don't know.
John:
But I'm fine with Apple making a TV box that hopefully is a decent TV box.
John:
I would have been fine with them making a DVR, but they never did because they don't love me.
John:
um you know like i i'm i think i think it's you just have to like kind of what i'm fighting against is the expectation that used to be around microsoft that they had whatever they did they had to be the winner and had to be awesome and it had to be great like the steve balmer go go go type thing
John:
microsoft found the limits of that microsoft found that eventually not only is this next thing not going to be the next big thing like pen computing for windows or whatever the hell they were doing like not only are we not going to be speaking to our computers as the main form of input in 2001 as bill gates might have been surmising at some point in the past um not only will uh you know
John:
whatever market uh microsoft thinks be like the xbox be like the future of entertainment although that was pretty successful as far as other things but there will be a big thing microsoft will be in it smartphones and it will lose it will lose big like it will have been there before everybody else and it will not only not win but it will just be like a footnote like you know windows phone right
John:
and like that's that's what comes from expecting every single thing you do to like we're going to dominate that because you start to believe your own hype you start to believe all we all microsoft has to do is introduce a product in this category and we will be dominant and we will win and if we make up a new category like computing with a pen that will be the next big thing because our ceo says it is uh and when it's not we'll keep making a new version and a new version and a new version and we'll be like i don't understand what's going on here and then someone else will come out with uh you know the iphone or whatever and make us all look foolish and so
John:
i don't know i don't know what's going inside apple from the outside i'm much more content to to let these things sort of sort themselves minus the stuff you were talking about with the developer relations because i think that's a legit issue that apple needs to sort out regardless of what platform it deals with including even the car
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Casey:
Do we have any other thoughts on this, or do we want to take this to a slightly happier place?
John:
I have a lot of thoughts on it, but, I mean, you broke the topic, but we'll save it for follow-up.
John:
Maybe we'll get feedback from people about it later.
Casey:
I think what's tough about it is that, like Marco has said, we've seen some feedback lately, especially about how negative we've all been.
Casey:
And, you know, it's a tough thing, right?
Casey:
Because maybe we have been a little too negative, but...
Casey:
But we want to call it like we see it.
Casey:
And right now, this is how we see it.
Casey:
And I think I probably speak for Marco, but I certainly speak for myself.
Casey:
I intend to try to find the more positive side of things going forward, but...
Casey:
We also don't want to not say what we think, you know, and if it becomes a bear to listen to, then I'm sorry, I genuinely am.
Casey:
But, you know, this is what we think.
Casey:
And you know what I think about the Swift open source thing?
Casey:
The more I see of it, the more I like it.
John:
Nice try.
John:
Nice transition there.
John:
uh no but before before we even get off that i just want to say like it's not a choice between like uh you know because i i every time i get that feedback i assume it's not about me because i i i'd say i think i'm not too negative so have it be the one person who will boldly say if you're sending an email and saying too negative and you mean me i disagree because i think i'm exactly the amount of negative i normally am then again i also had a podcast called hypercritical so
John:
Uh, maybe I'm holding myself to a slightly different standard, but I think, I think that the issue is like the, the, the trap is basically, it's not a choice between, well, do I not get to say what I feel?
John:
Uh, do I not get to, you know, I'm just being honest or whatever.
John:
It's all about, like I said, at the beginning of this whole thing, it's all about an examination of, you know, you are feel, your feelings are real and you have to examine them.
John:
and examine them with the lens of like could there be other really common reasons that i'm feeling the things i'm feeling about this particular thing that are not explained by the conclusions i would like to leap to because i'm defensive or upset or uh i have just turned 30 and the world is passing me by as children swipe their fingers on their ipad screens and i need to use a mouse or whatever you know what i mean like uh it's it's i think most of that feedback is legit and it's it's a signal for for all of us yes even me to
John:
to just take a closer look at where where these things where these feelings are coming from and i think because we've been super negative before it's mostly just about i feel bad and therefore i come to this conclusion now some of it granted some of it is people who just don't want to hear anything bad about apple but that they have their own things like why why are you so upset when anyone says anything bad about apple especially people who love apple like that's a separate issue but
John:
there's enough of it and and this you know this is true of anything that you're critical of whether it's star wars or apple or any other thing like it behooves all of us to make sure we are not being a cliche and to not react to complaints of negativity immediately by thinking that now you're just telling me i can't tell you what my real feelings are and i just want to be honest and i'm just saying i'm just saying the truth i'm just saying the
John:
Just to be self-critical, like, you know, the greatest hypercritical of all is I can't do the Whitney Houston transition.
John:
Someone else can figure it out.
John:
But yeah, being self-critical is perhaps the most important place of criticism.
John:
And I think it's.
John:
worthwhile for all of us to do that and i think we try to do that to each other whichever one of us is in the crankiest mood hopefully the other two help try to think about other ways that that could be explained um and so i think that's an ongoing thing and i think we'll all uh try to do better in the new year
Casey:
yep absolutely so swift open source we've talked about this some and unfortunately the show notes are i think some of the things we've talked about and some of the things we haven't but i i'm still stunned and extremely pleased with pretty much everything associated with this entire endeavor i cannot i just can't believe that this is really what apple is doing and
Casey:
And just this week, Craig Federighi was on the talk show, which I thought was awesome.
Casey:
And there was some other guy on it, too, other than John Gruber.
Casey:
I don't know who he was.
Casey:
He was all right.
Casey:
But Federighi was great.
Casey:
And I thought it was a really candid conversation.
Casey:
It didn't feel to me like...
Casey:
It was all just BS marketing speak.
Casey:
This is not unlike the conversation that Gruber had with Phil Schiller at WWDC.
Casey:
I thought it was really great.
Casey:
I think what they've done there is great.
Casey:
Chris Latner, if you ever want to come on the show, let us know.
Casey:
But...
Casey:
All this open sourcing with Swift and the way it's being handled and how receptive they've been to additions from the community.
Casey:
How do you pronounce her last name?
Casey:
Erica Satan?
Casey:
She had pitched getting rid of increment and decrement operators, and that apparently is going to be a thing.
John:
No, she did the for loops.
Casey:
Sorry, my bad.
Casey:
Sorry, my apologies.
Casey:
So now they're gone.
Casey:
And I just think that's phenomenally awesome.
Casey:
And I really genuinely commend Apple for pretty much everything that they've been doing around this space.
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
What do you guys think?
John:
Yeah, the stuff I have in for Swift stuff is basically leftover from the first time we discussed it, but it's small tidbits that I thought were fun.
John:
First one was a tweet from Chris Latner from a little while back says Swift's comments and test suite are on track to be one of the most correctly spelled and best indented ones in the industry.
John:
and this maybe this makes no sense but it's a comment like when you have an open source project and you put it out there and there's a lot of excitement about it as there is about swift and there's a lot of people who want to do things the easiest thing to do is sort of bike shedding or whatever to say i'm just going to go in there and fix typos and i'm going to re-indent this because the spacing is all messed up in in this thing because it's really easy to do that and when you have a million people and they're just i say i just want to go in there and fix something and so i just they you know i've
John:
fork it on github and go into the documentation and test suite and like fix the broken indenting and there's a lot of people with enthusiasm and that's how they landed and it's kind of snarky it's like on the one hand you could be saying that like
John:
uh oh chris latner's being mean don't you appreciate our contributions uh we're fixing your spelling and typo that's a legitimate concern but that's not how he meant it at all as matthew palmer pointed out uh anyone teasing people about what he calls pedantic pr as pull requests on swift lang uh the first non chris latner commit was a typo fix uh
John:
Chris Ladner himself, to clarify later, made another tweet that said, making small improvements is the one that everyone gets started.
John:
This is how open source works.
John:
Hey, I want to help contribute to Swift, but I am not ready to declare how the language should work because I'd have never even written anything in it.
John:
go fix typos go fix a dent and go fix a test suite go find a test that fails on your system and make it so it passes on your system by adding a new conditional or improving a capability check or something that's how open source works um so and i think the spirit of these tweets about like the the best spelled and indented things like that's that's a spirit of like joyfulness of like look at all these people who are contributing craig talked about it on the talk show like the tremendous activity around swift so much enthusiasm
John:
enthusiasm that had nowhere to go when swift was closed source and now that it's open source all these people who are jazzed about swift have some place to put that effort and just having hundreds and thousands of people making this thing better like it's just got to feel awesome for apple it's like essentially we're you know the magic of open source we're getting free labor that's making things better for everybody including us and everybody's happy about it the people who do it are happy because they feel like i contributed to this big thing that that's important to all of us apple's happy because their stuff is getting better uh it's it's great
Casey:
Yeah, I've been really impressed by all of it.
Casey:
What else did we have in the show notes here?
Casey:
The license.
Casey:
Do you want to talk at all about that, John?
John:
Yeah, it came up on the talk show as well.
John:
It's the Apache 2 license.
John:
I'm not a connoisseur of open source licenses, but it was pointed out to me one interesting thing about Apache 2, other than the fact that it being non-viral like the GPL and a license that is suitable for a commercial entity like Apple to use for its software so that it doesn't have to open source everything that it writes in Swift or whatever else.
John:
Yeah.
John:
about one particular part of it is the patent grant that basically makes it gives people cover to say hey if i use swift for like whatever i'm doing i'm making some embedded software for like uh you know a light switch they can a wi-fi light switch or something and i want to use swift to do it do i have to worry that apple is going to sue me for violating some patent or or something like that uh and the apache 2 license grants you know if you if you use
John:
the software with this license was that you know that it's legalese but uh each contributor hereby grants to you a perpetual worldwide non-exclusive non-charge royalty-free irrevocable except as stated in the section patent license to make have made use offer sell blah blah blah like everyone who contributes is basically saying if you were contributing something um
John:
that and you have any patents that each contributor grants to you a license to those patents and then there's the fun section at the end it says if you institute patent litigation against any entity including a cross-claim or counter-claim in a lawsuit alleging that the work or a contribution incorporated within the work constitutes a direct or contributory patent infringement then any patent license is granted to you under this license shall terminate so basically if you contribute stuff and then try to sue other people because like hey that's my patented work in there then you lose all the patent protection it's
John:
basically a way to try to work around our stupid patent system to make people feel safer about both contributing to to swift and or whatever it thing is on the apache license and and to using it and to dissuade people from like putting a little patent time bomb and then trying to sue everybody who uses swift because their patent thing is in there i thought it was pretty clever at least assuming that my understanding of it is remotely accurate but uh the bottom line is that
John:
This is something that would make the Apache 2 license particularly appealing to Apple and make it appealing to people who want to contribute because you might be afraid of contributing to a project run by a company that has a million patents and that has litigated based on patents in the past.
John:
And Apple has.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
So we did not talk about the package manager.
John:
Yeah, this is a sort of a human interest story angle type thing.
John:
So I don't know much about Swift Package Manager other than we will put a link to it in the show notes and it's open source and you can look at it.
John:
But apparently one of the developers behind it is the guy who made Homebrew, which is a package manager, open source package manager for OS X. His name is Max Howell.
John:
And the reason this came up in our little circles is he had some snarky tweets about Google not hiring him like he interviewed a Google and apparently Google did not want him and Max felt like they didn't want him for dumb reasons.
John:
uh regardless of why google didn't want him they didn't and apple hired him and used him to write used him and had him write a package manager for swift and considering he wrote homebrew which is a pretty popular package matter for os 10 he probably has some significant experience writing package managers so hopefully he did an even better job on the second one um and
John:
that like his complaint was basically like they wanted me to do computer sciencey stuff and they wouldn't hire me even though they use homebrew in google like so you have your employees are using my software but they won't hire me because i can't do some weird computer sciencey tree-ish thing in an interview at least that's his perception perception of why he wasn't hired and i've always thought that that type of interview not google specifically because their their hiring has changed over the years and i'm not sure what it's like these days but
John:
That type of hiring thing, not the puzzle hiring, but where you interview people and you want them to demonstrate their knowledge of theoretical computer science concepts, there's value in that.
John:
But I feel like you have to hire...
John:
based on a balance of things so maybe hire some some guy who is really strong academically and knows a lot a lot of the conceptual stuff but has never really written a working program in his life he's like well it's on the balance like you know he's i wouldn't he's not a great programmer and maybe he doesn't even know the language we want him to write in but he conceptually he knows some really important and heavy-duty things so that guy is a hire and
John:
The other side of that is maybe this guy doesn't even have a degree.
John:
Maybe he dropped out of high school for all you know.
John:
But he's written, he has a history of work, of products, of actual software that people use, that maybe we even use, that shows he knows how to create a good working product that people like.
John:
But he doesn't know anything about computer science theory.
John:
Maybe that guy on balance should also be a hire.
John:
If you just say there's a minimum bar and you've got to know this minimum theoretical stuff and we don't care if you have any practical skill, you'll end up with a bunch of like just...
John:
cats wandering around in your office thinking deep thoughts and never getting anything done um and so i'm glad to see that apple's hiring process recognized uh you know it obviously was selecting for different things and i mean really the hiring process can possibly be like homebrew we've heard homebrew that's pretty cool and then you just make sure he's not a crazy person and that he can get along with people and that he's interested in doing what you want him to do which maybe is right a package manager for swift and
John:
and great you're hired so i think this is a win for apple and a loss for google not that google necessarily needed him to write a package manager for them or something but i've just always thought that their hiring uh is slightly unbalanced in terms of and again like maybe it's their their whole thing was like it's worse for us to have a bad hire than to skip a good hire so maybe it's working exactly as designed and that
John:
There was that study or whatever that went around the web recently that like one bad hire is much more costly than missing out on a good hire.
John:
So that could be Google's policy as well.
John:
So maybe everything's working out for everybody, but it just seemed like a happy ending to what could have been a sad story of this guy who's obviously got some skills and he found a good home in Apple.
Casey:
Indeed.
Casey:
Have you had a chance to look into the Swift 3.0 goals?
Casey:
Because there's a whole, I guess this is a repo, that is Swift Evolution that talks about, among other things, what's going to be happening in Swift 3.0.
John:
Yeah, that's an ongoing thing.
John:
There's a mailing list, which I subscribe to, and it's such high volume that I can't keep up with it.
John:
Not only do I have to have it filtered somewhere, but I tried subscribing to the digest version because I can't handle the activity.
John:
I keep thinking it's going to die down, but...
John:
boy um yeah they're 3.0 the goals for 3.0 is still up in the air people are still thinking of things people are proposing like you know major things right now like you're more significant than getting rid of classic for loops and you know plus plus and minus minus much more significant
John:
i'm assuming most of them will not be adopted but the fact that that's how that's what the discussion is that these are being entertained and discussed it's a little bit scary and it's like haven't we nailed things down more than that by now maybe we haven't maybe this is just exuberance of activity but it's exciting to see it happening in real time and you can contribute to it if you're not a dummy like me and respond to the digest version and forget to put a subject line in so your first post to the mailing list has no subject but if you don't do that yeah it's the worst
John:
i even have undo send on gmail it just took me too long to notice that the little undo thing went away i need a longer timer because i'm old and stupid um but yeah like the only the only thing i would say were hard and fast is like the things they say are out like language level concurrency not in 3.0 um
John:
um and it's good to draw that line because that's a whole can of worms um that you that you know it's good yeah anyway but but minor things uh you can see them happening in real time subscribe to the mailing list and just try to read the messages that come up there every day and there's a process it's a proposal process it's a discussion everyone gets to contribute to the discussion um
John:
effectively because if you're not going to implement the feature yourself uh or if apple's not going to adopt it like effectively apple is still in charge of this whole thing it's not as if it's a democracy and if we all vote for some silly feature that apple doesn't want then you know they're not going to have it but that's the nature of open source so people if everyone in the community literally everyone in the community uh wants classic four loops backs and apple doesn't the community can just fork it and go ahead now you're the developer of swift you know develop your fork give it a different name
John:
uh go nuts that's the magic of open source but for now everyone seems to be singing kumbaya and be perfectly willing to uh throw a million proposals at apple and discuss them at length and then just trust that apple is going to pick the ones that it both thinks are useful and have reasonable support
Marco:
Yep.
Marco:
And to hear more of John talking like this, I highly suggest that everybody listen to the talk show episode from this past week featuring Craig Federighi and our friend John here.
Marco:
Because honestly, the Federighi part was big news, but honestly, John, I thought your segment was really, really great.
Marco:
You really, really killed it.
Marco:
So good job there.
Marco:
And I definitely recommend for all listeners, if you're interested in hearing about Swift being open source, you must listen to that episode of the talk show.
Marco:
It is long, but it is worth it.
John:
and it helps if you're a programmer because yeah i sometimes i feel bad when i go off not even john at a certain point his eyes are glazing over but like well you know it was an episode about swift so indeed anything else about swift swift open sourcing that you would like to discuss tonight or would you like to hold off for another day
John:
no we'll say i mean some of the stuff is aging like i would say if you want to still keep up on the swift stuff just do subscribe to those mailing lists you know it's the best like it's an insane amount of activity um if you have any interest at all it might feel like uh you know drinking from a fire hose the other thing you can do is subscribe to people's blogs like erica had a post about like here are the interesting things that happened on the swift evolution mailing list this week you know her opinion on the you know like
John:
then you don't have to read a thousand messages someone smart will just pick out the things that were actually interesting and you can kind of get a summary like even uh that's one of the cool features of the like the pearl 5 balance which are actually surprisingly active given the relative popularity of pearl these days but even that is just too much to go through even when it's only like 10 or 15 people talking back and forth to each other so they would have weekly summaries here's what happened on pearl 5 porters this week
John:
And just kind of a summary of everything, literally, rather than just the regular one.
John:
So if you can't handle the mailing list, the people in the mailing list that are contributing the most probably have blogs.
John:
Subscribe to their blogs, and then you'll get it one step removed.
John:
But anyway, it's exciting times at Swift and at Apple.
Marco:
Yeah, and bringing it back around a little bit to what we were saying earlier, as Apple is so big and so now sprawling, and as they keep doing things that, I don't know, have kind of a mixed appeal to people like us, or at least me, some things they do I'm really into, and a lot of things they do I'm really not.
Marco:
And as this happens, and as we see them stumble here and there, and as we see things that aren't as good as they should be here and there,
Marco:
it is really easy to get really negative about this stuff.
Marco:
And I've been really kind of fighting that for a while and trying to figure out how to reverse that negativity in me and the way I feel about it, the way I talk about it.
Marco:
And I think one way to do it that I really want to focus more on is that even though the company is really big and they do some pretty crappy things here and there, in my opinion...
Marco:
there are areas like this like areas with like like the like the swift open sourcing that's going on now where they really are doing really great things and and even if over time those areas that they're doing really great work in become a smaller proportion of the of the things they do at least in the way that i care about them um the fact is they are still doing a lot of really good stuff like that and
Marco:
And I say this on my 5K iMac from last year that I absolutely love using an OS that I absolutely love that I get all of my work done on and I don't want to change.
Marco:
So there is a lot of good there.
Marco:
And I think the way forward in trying to mature my discussion about this and trying to minimize negativity unnecessarily is really just to find the positives because they are there.
John:
yeah i completely agree one little one final tidbit on speaking of the the positive bits about swift this is a tweet from danny greg says he kind of loves that the swift team reference tweets in their source this is the exact opposite of radar or gtfo which is from our did mike jarwitz coin that he's credited with it let's say one of the matches from apple uh
John:
many years in the past and today to some degree as well is say you've cornered some apple person at wwc and you're like oh there's a bug in your api you're responsible for the whatever library well when you do this with the whatever library this thing happens or whatever and apple people would say you have to file a radar you can't just tell me you can't just like shout at me in the hallway and tell me that if you pass nil for this parameter your crashes right you have to file a radar that's how we track things that's our bug tracking system um
John:
and the swift approach to this is someone tweets something and someone on the swift team sees the tweet and i guess they make the radar or they add the bug tracking issue or whatever and then when they fix it in the source code they reference the tweet that told them about this crasher so that's what they're saying what danny greg is saying in this tweet that basically like if you look at the swift source code you will find links to tweets saying
John:
this is why we know about this bug this person tweeted this and then we went and fixed it which is totally the opposite of you have to go to apple's official bug trapper and file a radar or it's useless even talking to me and both of them are good advice it's like you can't really yell at people the whole in wwc and expect something you want to if you want to work you got to work in this within the system but on the other hand swift the swift team is so engaged in the community that
John:
they you know they're stewing in people's tweets about these things and if they see a tweet that says hey i've got a crasher in this whatever they will note the tweet and i guess they added it to their own bug tracker or whatever they'll just pay you know paste the link to the tweet into the source code to remind them later to click on that link to go back to the tweet and say oh yeah that's the guy who said they had this thing and like follow up with them or whatever it is
John:
total community engagement all the way down to the level of referencing referencing tweets that led to bug fixes which is fascinating from the perspective of a company that uh popularized the term radar gtfo i think we're good thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week squarespace mail route and automatic and we will see you next week
John:
Now the show is over They didn't even mean to begin Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental John didn't do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him Cause it was accidental Oh it was accidental And you can find the show notes At atp.fm
Marco:
And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
Casey:
So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S
Casey:
So long.
John:
so the car's name is the x6m that's too many letters it's not the m6 it's not the 6m it's the x6m because the x6 is the car and this is the m version not the m sport but the actual m so it is an m car but it's not an m car because the m's at the end anyway 3.7 seconds to 60.
John:
3.7 seconds to 60 for basically an suv look at this thing
John:
it's like making an it's like making a hippo dance like it's just you know it's amazing that you can do it like and the car and driver review of this they had a shootout between these cars uh like this one and whatever the mercedes one is and it was like these cars shouldn't even exist it's unholy that they're able to make but like but why like it's fascinating i guess but no one should ever buy these cars they make no sense and it defies the laws of physics that like
John:
you make this thing corner this flat and go this fast like going through slalom cones and doing like handling things and a thing that's shaped essentially like a jeep cherokee with like a little bit lower hood it is what what a world and casey probably wants one oh he would like the american version better probably but
Casey:
yeah this car is way too good looking for casey to want it oh no there's nothing good looking about this car exactly hideous i know stop no no this is way too ugly for me to ever drive don't worry it comes in white oh my god i hate you so much uh although i do love you john for knowing the very very nuanced difference between an m sport car and an actual m car how could i not how could i not
Casey:
Well, spend enough time with us two knuckleheads, and I don't blame you.
Casey:
In car-related news, since we've already opened the neutral door, I drove a Tesla.
Marco:
Yeah, so tell us about that.
Casey:
Dear friend of the show, underscore David Smith, has quietly bought his family a Tesla Model S, a 90D.
Casey:
And he and his family visited this past weekend very, very briefly as they were kind of swinging through Richmond.
Casey:
He took me for a ride.
Casey:
And I know this is not the David Smith that I met a few years back because we got to the end of my road.
Casey:
And at the end of the road that my house is on, it tees onto a pretty big road.
Casey:
I don't remember the exact words that were used, but...
Casey:
Something along the lines of are you ready came from Underscore's mouth.
Casey:
And you have to understand, kids, that Underscore used to drive a Corolla.
Casey:
And although it was his idea for Marco and I to join him at the two-day M driving school, I think he was the least aggressive of the three of us.
Casey:
Is that fair to say?
Marco:
Oh, easily.
Casey:
And next thing I know, he's saying to me, are you ready?
Casey:
And then he stands on the gas while making a 90-degree turn.
Casey:
It's not the gas.
Casey:
Sorry.
Casey:
The throttle.
Casey:
Thank you.
Casey:
Oh, John, you're the best.
John:
Later tonight, I'm going to tape a show off TV so I can watch it later.
Casey:
Oh, God.
Casey:
I don't even know where to go from here.
Casey:
But anyway, so he took me for a spin.
Casey:
He demonstrated autopilot, which was fascinating and petrifying.
Casey:
He drove reasonably briskly, which made me so happy I cannot even begin to describe it.
Casey:
And then we got back, we went on like a literally five to 10 minute loop, which involved a little bit of curves, a little bit of travel on a highway, and then a little bit of just like regular surface roads.
Casey:
And then he offered for me to drive and do basically the exact same circuit.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
uh first impressions the car doesn't creep when you come off the gas however there is a setting to turn on creep mode which is extremely weird and and i bet they don't call it that though no i believe they do i think they might creep mode
Casey:
Well, I don't know if it's creep mode.
Casey:
I see what you're saying now.
Casey:
I didn't get it at first.
Casey:
That's a good name for it, though, because you really don't want that on.
Casey:
Right.
Casey:
Exactly.
Casey:
And the funny thing was the underscore said to me, well, you know, this is going to be more like your car, which doesn't really creep when you come off the brake, which in general is true.
Casey:
But my brain was in automatic mode where if you come off the brake, you're going to move forward.
Casey:
and it didn't take long for me to get used to the creep, not being there, but it was peculiar because my brain had to like balance this threshold between driving a stick and driving an automatic, which was very peculiar.
Casey:
Um, he spent a long time and I'm genuinely glad he did explaining to me how freaking weird regenerative braking is.
Casey:
And you know what?
Casey:
It's freaking weird.
Casey:
So
John:
that's an option too by the way you can turn off the one foot driving mode but it's stupid because you're losing power so don't turn it off just get used to it yeah you can turn that down yeah i was about to say just like marco just said you know you can also turn it down i think there were three settings i think it's off medium and high or something along those lines
Marco:
The funny thing is it was really easy for me to drive Teslas because my car with the DCT doesn't creep.
Marco:
Oh, that's true.
Marco:
And it has so much engine vacuum when you let off the gas that it really pulls you back, almost like regenerative braking.
Marco:
So in the settings you were using, it actually feels a lot like my car.
John:
That's true.
John:
When you're doing that, you're not getting any gas back from it.
John:
No.
John:
All you're doing is saving on brake wear on your horrendously expensive brakes.
John:
Yeah, that's right.
John:
They just need to last at the end of the lease.
Casey:
Oh, God.
Casey:
What's the countdown?
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
Four months, something like that.
Casey:
Fair enough.
Casey:
So we eventually take off.
Casey:
And I got halfway down my little neighborhood street.
Casey:
And I got going just a hint too quickly so I could feel the regenerative braking.
Casey:
And it is weird, man.
Casey:
It's not that...
Casey:
terribly dissimilar from driving a Wrangler at speed where if you take your foot off the gas, you just suddenly kind of stop.
Casey:
But the difference here again is instead of it being because there's so much wind resistance against this rolling box, in this case, it's because like you were saying, John, you are actually recovering electricity, which is really cool.
Casey:
And so what ended up happening was it didn't take me too long to, as one of you just said, drive with basically only one foot.
Casey:
And it's weird.
Casey:
I liked it.
Casey:
It was kind of a fun game.
Casey:
But it is weird.
Casey:
That being said, I eventually got onto a larger road and kind of was creeping a little bit.
Casey:
And then I stood on the accelerator or throttle, if you will.
Casey:
And by God, the closest analogy I can make is imagine a turbocharged car like mine or like Marco's where you're in a relatively low gear.
Casey:
at reasonably quick speed so say i'm in like second gear at like 50 or 60 miles an hour so if i stand on the gas at that point presumably the turbo is already providing boost and if i stand on the gas i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go with quickness well a relative quickness given that i'm burning dead dinosaurs but
Casey:
This thing, however, felt like that from a stop.
Casey:
From any speed, from any speed, there was instant infinite power.
Casey:
And the 90D, as I said to Marco after I drove it...
Casey:
It is sufficiently fast.
Casey:
Now, as I also said to Marco, I'm not used to Marco being satisfied with sufficient, but it was without question sufficiently fast.
Marco:
Told you so.
Casey:
It is absolutely true.
Casey:
I still think you're going to get the performance version, but...
Casey:
It is sufficiently fast.
Marco:
I actually have to decide this week what I'm getting.
Casey:
Oh, really?
Marco:
I was just looking at the configure today like, should I just go performance anyway?
Marco:
And I'm thinking, I still think probably not.
Marco:
But I was tempted.
Marco:
Just to let you know, I was tempted by it.
Marco:
One thing that I learned while browsing around their forums, which...
Marco:
Hmm.
Marco:
I've seen a lot of internet communities in my time so far.
Marco:
And the Tesla forums are not among the most helpful that I have seen.
Marco:
But...
Marco:
One thing that I learned from these random strangers of very mixed credibility and relevance skills and writing skills on a page that loads incredibly slowly because what year is this?
Marco:
Anyway, on the official Tesla forums, I learned that apparently the quoted range that you get goes down pretty hard over time.
Marco:
It says you lose like 3% to 5% a year, which sounds like a lot.
Marco:
And the range upgrade to go from 85 to 90D is only 6%.
Marco:
And the difference between the non-P and the P version in battery is something like 20%.
Marco:
So it's actually a pretty big difference.
Marco:
And so I wonder, you know, I think maybe I really might want the maximum range and to not get the P version, if for no other reason, which there are other good reasons not to get it, but if for no other reason, then to really maximize my initial range because I'm not even going to be getting that in like two years, you know, but to get myself more padding on the range.
John:
Take it to an Apple store.
John:
You get the battery swap for $99, right?
John:
Something like that.
John:
Welcome to the world of lithium ion batteries that just like the ones in your phone, they get crappier as you use them.
Casey:
You know, it's funny you bring that up because Dave made a couple of interesting points.
Casey:
The first thing he said was, you know, if you were going to buy one, which I'm not, but if you're going to buy one, it makes... Three years.
Casey:
Too much money.
Casey:
If it was affordable, it would have already happened.
Casey:
I would have traded in my car already.
Marco:
Same thing about Apple products.
Marco:
Same thing about BMWs.
John:
I think the Tesla is slightly more expensive than the average car than a Mac is than the average PC.
John:
Exactly.
John:
Thank you, John.
John:
In terms of absolute values, if not percentages.
Casey:
Let's see what happens when the Model 3 comes out.
Casey:
Right.
Casey:
So we'll see.
Casey:
But anyway, he made an interesting point, which was the way this technology is and with the way the batteries are.
Casey:
It would probably be a pretty dumb idea to purchase one rather than lease one.
Casey:
And I've never had a lease in my life.
Casey:
And they seem in a lot of ways like a complete waste of money to me.
Casey:
But I think he's probably right in this case that it seems like it would be silly to purchase a car where when you fill the tank, so to speak, in three or four years, you will not be able to fill it as high as you were once able to when it was new.
John:
Do you remember the plan for the quick charge stations that instead of the supercharger, they would take the battery out and give you a new one?
Casey:
I don't know if that's a thing anymore, but I do remember that plan.
John:
I mean, it wouldn't be a new one.
John:
It would just be a different one.
Marco:
Yeah, it's like getting propane cylinders at the hardware store.
Marco:
You might get a new one, but chances are you're getting someone's old rusty one.
Yeah.
John:
I mean, because it's like, what is it?
John:
That's the majority of the cost in the car, obviously, is that big honking battery.
John:
And so there's no avoiding the fact that they're going to get old and they're going to get crappier.
John:
And yeah, the lease starts to make sense in that scenario.
John:
But the problem is then when the lease is up, do you lease another one?
John:
Like, they're not going to... I guess there's going to be a secondary market for them, but at a certain point...
John:
the battery is crap like you know if just we haven't been around long enough like i mean i guess we could find some tesla roadster and see like is there other tesla tesla roadsters out there that just no one wants because it's like it's like selling a car with a seized engine it's like yeah it's fine but you just need a new engine yeah it's fine but you just need a new fifty thousand dollar battery pack
Marco:
No, this is not a car that I would want to own outright just because it is changing so much still.
Marco:
The Model S has only been around for, what, three or four years, so it hasn't been that long, right?
Marco:
So we still don't really know what the used market is.
Marco:
When they guess at least residual, they really are just kind of guessing it.
Marco:
So by leasing, you're putting the risk on Tesla, not on you.
Marco:
And I think for a product this young that's advancing so quickly, plus they keep advancing the features and the hardware that's available in the car.
Marco:
In six months after I get mine...
Marco:
there's going to be some massive new feature that my car can't do that i'm going to want you know because they keep they make things so quickly it isn't even on a yearly schedule they put stuff out like every four months like just new new features new changes and some of them are software that that all the previous cars can get and some of them aren't and so like it really is updated as often as like a computer is updated like with new features and new capabilities and new hardware
Marco:
Do you really want to be using a six-year-old one?
Marco:
Maybe not.
Marco:
If you care about all the cool new stuff they keep adding, I think a lease really does make a lot of sense, especially for a car that's this young in its development cycle, for an industry that's this young, like the whole electric car industry.
Marco:
You don't know what it's going to be like in three years.
Marco:
You don't know what the market for these cars will be like in three years and how easy it will be to sell one or what long-term maintenance might cost.
Marco:
All those are still such unknowns that leasing makes a lot of sense.
Casey:
Yeah, I agree.
Casey:
The other interesting point that that underscore made, and I didn't know this was a thing, but apparently whatever flavor of battery is in the Tesla, it is understood that charging it only to about 80 or 90 percent.
Casey:
I forget exactly what it was.
Casey:
is better for the battery than charging it all the way to 100 percent and so apparently what you can do is you can say to the car you know what generally speaking just charged 80 percent it's not i'm just gonna be around town it's fine and then you can like request or tell it to do a full max range charge in the instances that you're about to go on like a road trip or something like that which i just thought was fascinating and
John:
this is the extension of the bmw is where you have settings for every possible thing like tesla it's all settings settings all the way down it's all computers and electronics like they've taken it to the final like bmw sounds like it was they were always taking to like the things you can't adjust on other cars you can adjust in the bmw but but some things that you can't adjust at all right and tesla's like everything's upper grabs how do maybe if you want when you turn the steering wheel to left the wheels go right it's a setting probably not that one but they could probably do it because it's electric power steering
Casey:
Yeah, it's ridiculous.
Casey:
The touchscreen in the center, visually, with the screen off, just visually having a 17-inch monitor in the center of the car looks ridiculous, and I hate it.
Casey:
However, it did not take long for me to start to appreciate what that affords you, having this humongous screen in the center of the car.
Casey:
Like having a navigation screen that is a mammoth.
Casey:
Being able to go two pane, like so you can split it in half so that the thing is mounted in portrait orientation, but you can split it in half so you have like a top half and a bottom half and do two wildly different things on them.
Casey:
I thought the touchscreen was reasonably responsive.
Casey:
I didn't think it was bad.
Casey:
I thought it was aesthetically sufficient.
Casey:
I wouldn't say it looked great, but it was okay.
Casey:
My understanding is they recently did a quote-unquote iOS 7 update, and before that it looked really dated from what I've been told.
Casey:
But this one, I mean, seemed fine.
Casey:
I still can't get over how quick it was from any speed.
Casey:
It was just instant.
Casey:
It was like one of those linear induction roller coasters.
Casey:
At any speed, it was just instant power.
Casey:
I did briefly try the autopilot.
Casey:
Really weird.
Casey:
Really, really weird.
Casey:
Not bad weird, but really weird.
Casey:
David said that if you leave your hands off the wheel for an extended length of time, it gets progressively more angry about that fact.
Casey:
And I believe he said it will eventually just pull the car over and put on the emergency flashes, assuming that you've had some sort of medical emergency or something.
Casey:
But it was very cool, but very, very weird.
Casey:
And it was unbelievably cool to me to see, even when I wasn't in autopilot mode, just because of the proximity awareness to what was going on around me.
Casey:
It would actually show an icon of the car in front of me on the dashboard.
Casey:
So not like the specific make and model of that car, but like a representative.
Casey:
There's a car in front of you and it's about here.
Casey:
Similarly, I see where you are in the lane.
Casey:
And so it kind of gives you a constant bird's eye view of where you are within the lane, which was very, very interesting.
Casey:
I loved it.
Casey:
I thought it was extremely cool.
Casey:
I won't say it utterly ruined my car, but if I were to buy a car tomorrow and I could afford one of these, I would absolutely do that instead of any sort of petrol or gasoline car.
Casey:
I also got to the point that I started to think to myself, you know, maybe instead of getting Aaron an SUV...
Casey:
What if we got her a Model S?
Casey:
It does hold more.
Casey:
It has that front trunk thing.
John:
Got her a Model S. Yeah, right.
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Casey:
I floated this idea briefly.
Casey:
And she looked at me and was like, huh, not happening.
Casey:
But I loved it.
Casey:
I absolutely loved it.
Casey:
I thought it was extremely cool.
Casey:
And it seems clear to me that this is the future.
John:
It's not the future.
John:
It's the present in my neighborhood.
John:
They are, I don't know if they're the most common rich person car, but they're pretty close.
John:
They're just everywhere.
Marco:
Yeah, I have, for what it's worth, I have seen a noticeable uptick in them in like just the last three months around here too.
Marco:
Like I'm guessing going all wheel drive, whenever that was last year, whenever that was, I bet that helped them tremendously in the Northeast.
Marco:
I really like, now I really am seeing them all over the place.
Casey:
Yeah, it's, I just, I don't even know what to say.
Casey:
It was just so, and you know what it was is I've become very spoiled by my car because my car, and this is not unique to BMWs, but I do think it's unique to luxury cars.
Casey:
It's just built well.
Casey:
Yes, it's had problems.
Casey:
Yes, it almost exploded a few weeks back.
Casey:
It's had its share of problems, but when it's running properly, which is more often than not, it just is so well built.
Casey:
It just feels so solid.
Casey:
It just feels right.
Casey:
And this car, the Tesla Model S, felt the same way.
Casey:
I didn't miss the sturdiness of it at all.
Casey:
Whereas when I drive Aaron's Mazda 6, which is an absolutely great car.
Casey:
It's a little old now.
Casey:
It's a 2007.
Casey:
But it's a great car.
Casey:
And I really like her car.
Casey:
It's just not built the same way.
Casey:
It's not built as sturdy as like a German boat of a car is.
Casey:
And this is built just as sturdy.
Casey:
I loved it.
Casey:
The iPhone app definitely has a bunch of problems.
Casey:
But the fact that you can do so much from the iPhone app, you can open the sunroof, you can turn on the air conditioning, you can tell it to charge, you can see what the charge is.
Casey:
It was incredible when we plugged it into my house, it like sort of trickle charged for a little bit to kind of decide whether or not my electricity coming out of the house was sufficient enough to do like a full bore charge.
Casey:
And then it eventually ramped up to I think it was like two amps or something like that.
Casey:
I forget exactly what it was, but it eventually ramped itself up to like, I'm going to charge myself as quickly as I possibly can from a traditional electrical outlet.
Casey:
Just everything about it was so cool and so well done.
Casey:
And it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems, but it was so cool and so well done and so clearly a nerd's automobile.
Casey:
I want one.
Casey:
I want it.
Marco:
Yeah, I really am curious to keep talking to Underscore and seeing what he thinks, you know, long term.
Marco:
And, you know, one thing like I heard, I talked to a friend in my neighborhood who just got one, and I think he probably has similar sensibilities to
Marco:
as me with this sort of thing and and he said he loves it but it is a car made by tech people and it has like you know bugs and software updates and stuff yeah it's like you got you kind of have to like like you know that you're signing yourself up for that but that that aside it is really nice and it comes with the upsides of that as well you know like the frequent updates and you know adding stuff after the fact i mean
Marco:
my car has gained nothing since i bought it except for some things started to work a little bit worse over time uh but like my car has not gained a single new feature since i bought it whereas like teslas get updated over the air and they get new stuff all the time so that's interesting and i might not always want that there might be some times where it drives me nuts when it when it doesn't do what i want or when i when i want to be more conservative and
Marco:
but i think overall it's probably a net win uh so i guess we'll see what happens i mean you know we could be looking back on this episode in you know three years when you have already bought one my my lease is about to end and i'm ranting about how much i hate all these dynamic software bugs and everything like
Marco:
We might be looking back on this and laughing.
Marco:
But at this moment, I think it sounds like an okay tradeoff overall.
Marco:
And to get a car that's overall that good, I think it's worth it.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
One final note while I'm thinking of it.
Casey:
I was utterly baffled with what to do when we got back to the house and I parked the car.
Casey:
The gear shift is on the right-hand side.
Casey:
It's on the column, and that was pretty self-explanatory.
Casey:
Heck, it's a hell of a lot better than BMW automatics, not the DCTs with the automatics.
Marco:
The DCTs are, believe me, even weirder.
Marco:
I mean, like, so, okay, when you turn my car on, it starts in park.
Marco:
As far as I know, once you shift it out of park, I don't think there's a way to get it back into park without turning the car off.
Casey:
There is on the automatics.
Casey:
I can't speak for the DCT.
Marco:
There is.
Marco:
You're right.
Marco:
The DCTs are totally different for some reason.
Marco:
It is so strange.
Marco:
The BMW modern automatics are themselves incredibly unintuitive and weird and just messed up.
Marco:
The DCT is...
Marco:
Also, just as weird, but it's all different.
Marco:
It's very strange.
Marco:
I just shift with the paddles, and I don't use the stick unless I need to reverse, because the stick is just so strange that it's not worth it.
Casey:
Yeah, so I put the car in park.
Casey:
That was fine.
Casey:
And then I look for the ignition switch, which I guess ignition in and of itself is a barbaric term now, or archaic, I should say.
Casey:
But there wasn't one.
Casey:
And I just kind of was looking around confused.
Casey:
And I think Dave was just kind of enjoying my being perplexed.
Casey:
And eventually I looked at him and said, what do I do?
Casey:
He said, just get out.
Casey:
I mean, the car is always on, effectively.
Casey:
As long as you're sitting in the car, the car is on, ready to go.
Casey:
So just get out.
Casey:
And when I lock the car, it'll kind of shut itself off.
Casey:
So weird.
Casey:
So cool.
Casey:
So much the future.
Casey:
It wants it.
Casey:
So, yeah, if you are someone who is interesting in advertising on the Accidental Tech Podcast, otherwise known as the Casey Buy a Tesla Fund, please reach out to any one of us.
Casey:
Send us as many emails as you'd like because I would like to have a Tesla.
Marco:
Yes.
Marco:
We're now going to have six sponsors per episode, by the way.
Marco:
Why is Tesla not buying ads?
John:
They don't need to.
John:
Well, they do.
John:
They do need to.
Yeah.
John:
uh so we are moving to six to twelve ads per episode uh we're trying to do the math we're gonna get work on that if tesla wants to get me into one they're gonna have to buy ads you still wouldn't buy one you would still talk yourself out of it well i don't have the house for it i don't have the space for it i don't have to talk myself i don't i don't have a burning desire for a tesla like if i had enough money for a tesla i would definitely be shopping for different cars
John:
you guys have already had fancy bmws and gotten out of your system i haven't i'm i would not if you give me enough money for marco's fancy tesla i would shop a different car but what would you get instead for say you know 90 grand or whatever these end up end up being i would i would look at all the i would look at uh mercedes bmw audi uh i wouldn't look at jaguar sorry um i would you know i hell i would even look at acura i would try and see see what's out there i would you know that's what i would consider before a tesla
John:
Because I'm not ready to have weird car experiments like you guys will work out the kinks.
John:
But the seventh model of Tesla will, you know, just like the iPhone when they come up to the fifth, sixth or seventh Tesla one, then it'll probably be right for me.
Casey:
Oh, goodness.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
So I want it.
Casey:
And don't don't ever hand me the key to your Tesla because you're never going to get it back.