The Delaware of Europe
Oh, man.
How old are you now that it took so long?
Well, before you beat up on Marco, I will tell you that I just discovered I like the beach about two to three years, maybe three years ago.
So apparently Marco and I are equally slow on this realization.
I don't know what's wrong with you guys.
So how many times did you have to rent a house on the beach for a few days to like it?
Uh, I actually would say the first time we did that, I liked it, but, but it is important to note that I was well into adulthood at this point.
And I don't remember, was it with you guys I was discussing this?
It might've been on the post show, but the pop up, um, what do they call them?
Like awnings or not awning.
Um,
shoot they call them umbrellas you push the middle and the tent the little tent thingies yeah it's like a tent but it's just the roof part of the tent so it's like a big square that's like yeah we saw a picture of your thing that you should never ever bring on a beach
Why?
Because that's not a thing designed.
That's for like having like a catered outdoor wedding.
Oh, yeah, totally.
Not for bringing on the beach.
Instant canopy is apparently what it's officially called.
Do not bring it to the beach.
You know, if you want a lot of shade from the sun, which is what I want when I go to the beach, that's a perfect way to do it.
Well, but as discussed last time, those tend to have a pretty poor shade-to-weight ratio.
They're awfully heavy for the amount of shade they provide.
We had a very large kind of extended umbrella.
You put it diagonally down, so the pole is running diagonally with one end in the sand.
And then the other side just kind of resting on the sand.
But it has like extra long flaps on two sides.
So it kind of makes like a tent.
But that's open on one side.
So you get a ton of shade in the total weight of an umbrella.
So that was pretty awesome.
Yeah, that works out nicely.
I've seen things like that.
So yeah, so to go back a half step.
So the first time we rented a house that I participated in anyway, we had one of these instant canopies.
The point is not as much the instant canopy, just the fact that there's shade.
However you decide to get your shade, umbrella, tenty thing, instant canopy, doesn't matter.
There's shade.
Indoors.
Indoors.
So I had shade.
I think the first year I went, I read Ready Player One.
And don't listen to what John says about Ready Player One.
It's a great book.
I also had Booze.
And that combination really worked out nicely for me.
And ever since then, I've found that if I have Shade...
And a book or a, you know, iOS device with a internet connection.
And I don't even need booze anymore, although it helps.
It actually is not too bad an experience.
So what turned the corner for you, Marco?
What made you decide this is not so bad?
So last year, we went to the same place, Fire Island.
We spent five days there.
So part of the problem was that I was really sick for most of that time.
So I wasn't really able to fully enjoy the time.
This year, we were there for seven or eight days, eight days, and I was not sick.
So even last year, the shorter time and being fairly uncomfortable most of the time, I still enjoyed it last year.
I still enjoyed the place.
I enjoyed walking around because while I don't really care for the actual beach itself very much, I do like the ocean breeze, the air.
I do like the beach town and Fire Island is pretty awesome because you just kind of walk around everywhere.
There's no cars and everything's really kind of tightly packed on this little tiny strip of island.
So everything's very walkable and
So I really enjoyed that part of it last year, but it was hard to really enjoy the whole trip because of my condition.
But this year, I spent a little more time on the actual beach this year, and I kind of learned how to make it work for me a little bit.
I still don't love being in the sun or going in the water or eating seafood.
But I found ways to enjoy myself on the actual beach.
And then because we were there for longer and I was feeling better this year, I greatly enjoyed the rest of the town and the week and the environment as well.
So basically, I really enjoyed it quite a bit.
And like eight days was enough time.
I feel like if you're somewhere for like three to five days...
you kind of are still in vacation, like sightseeing kind of mode, like active mode the whole time.
And there's a certain threshold, which I think I passed this trip, where like if you're somewhere for long enough, you kind of start living there.
Does that make sense?
It does, actually.
I do know what you're saying.
Like you kind of get kicked into a different mode.
Like, okay, now this is just like what it's like to live here, basically, for a short time, as opposed to like being like active, doing stuff, vacation mode, you know, the whole time.
So I got a brief sense of that, like living mode, and I really enjoyed it.
So what made the beach itself bearable, though?
Like I had said that, you know, in the past having booze in a book, and I should actually elaborate that having Declan there, particularly when he's in a positive mood, which is usually, that's also just tremendously fun.
What turned the corner for you on the beach specifically?
Yeah.
Well, so part of it was that, you know, part of it was that the entire family really enjoys it.
So everyone's happy.
Everyone's having fun.
There's always like stuff to do.
Nobody's ever bored.
So that's really nice.
But also, you know, I just kind of figured out like how to sit in the shade for a little bit.
This year, I've kind of, I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing.
It's probably some of both.
But I'm finally learning how to be able to turn my brain off for more than like 20 minutes at a time.
Like in the sense that I'm able to like relax and not wish I was sitting at a computer getting stuff done all the time.
and this this could be dangerous like this could go too far and i never just never want to work again i think i'm i'm going to try to get a better balance of that and so i kind of got that this year where i like last year because i was pretty sick and it was a shorter time and i was i was right in the middle of of trying to write peace so last year i actually worked a lot on that trip i mostly like stayed back at the house and everyone else went to the beach and i mainly just worked on my laptop and
uh this year i brought all my work with me i thought i'd get a lot done and i got almost nothing done it was like shockingly little considering like how how much i got done last year versus this year uh so i kind of learned how to take a vacation and it was to the point where like i when i came home i really missed it which has never ever happened with any vacation i've ever taken
that's awesome every every vacation i ever take when i get home like oh thank god i'm home i can get back to everything this time i was like oh i miss vacation anyway so i'm broken forever how are you guys well i'm waiting for john to uh to completely eviscerate us for having just realized that the beach is a thing and you've been distressingly quiet john so tell us what what do you have to say about the beach
I love that it's extra insulting that I'm also going to Fire Island, which I'm pretty sure is where John has gone for beaches for years.
No, I don't go to Fire Island, but I go to the other place in L'Oreal.
The only thing I think I have to add is that I have not wanted to work and love the beach since I was in single digit.
Way ahead of you.
You're just now getting to the point where you don't want to work and love the beach?
Congratulations.
Pretty much the rest of the human race is way ahead of you on that curve.
That's what everybody wants to do is not work and go to the beach.
And you're just like, you know what?
The beach is fun.
Working sucks.
Turns out I never knew.
So there's a few ways.
Actually, there's many ways in which I am a terrible geek by typical geek standards.
One of those things is I don't like anime or Star Trek or fantasy like Lord of the Rings type stuff.
You don't know you don't like anime.
okay and uh so anyway i i think in this way john i think you're a bad geek i think most geeks have the problem that i've had forever which is not really being able to turn my brain off for more than like a day or two without getting restless no you're that's that's not a geek thing that's a workaholic thing there's a difference yep concur is it well i bet there's a lot of overlap there because like
it's not necessarily that i want to do specific work it's that i want to do some like i want to do something that's what that's why you're a workaholic but i'm not because i don't want to work on like you know boring stuff to get it done i want to work on like weird mp3 encoders and stuff well you're also you're also bad at relaxing when you were describing like oh i finally got into like the vacation mode where it's like you're living there it's like no you just finally relaxed like it's true like
Merlin talks about this, too, how he goes on a vacation, takes him like three days to get into whatever mode.
He has another weird phrase, but it's just like you have to learn how to relax.
And that's another skill that I've always been very good at.
I'm really good at relaxing.
I'm an expert at relaxing.
In fact, I think most people are.
Most people, if you said, starting now, sit on your butt and do nothing, they just descend into a little puddle and be like, ah.
But some other people takes a while to sort of to untie the 700 twisty ties that are around their invisible twisty ties that are around their brain at all times and just slowly unwind them and turn and turn.
And then finally they release and you can go and then you go home after the vacation is over.
yeah and i did finally i was thinking of you john much of the time because as i was trying to like manage having a big camera and my phone at the beach of course sand is everywhere sand in my pockets you know what else is in people's pockets sand you know like i was thinking of you and your quotes from this show going back years of every time i was at the beach like doing something
Yeah, so how did your big fancy camera fare in the hostile environment of the beach?
Very well, actually.
Funnily enough, I did appreciate when I had the slightly longer lens on it.
I brought the 35 and the 55 primes, and the 35 pictures were decent, but I was happier in general with the 55 pictures.
And I got a lot of amazing pictures, and
just destroyed my laptop trying to process them in Lightroom on battery, which is hilarious.
So how far were you out in the water with the expensive camera?
Like ankles, knees?
Well, I was still in the wave zone, so not necessarily a fixed depth, but the closest I would let it get was the bottom of my shorts.
Once I was that deep, I would...
hold the camera up above my head if there was like a big wave coming in or like and there were i think twice it got a little bit of splash on it uh but but otherwise it was pretty good i think for someone with not a lot of beach experience i don't think you realize exactly how close you were that entire time to destroying your camera because you're like oh you know the wave comes i'll hold it up but you don't realize that like all it takes is one false move or not paying attention for two seconds in one way that's a little bit bigger than the other ones to put you on your butt
And put that camera in the water.
So I think you were pretty lucky and pretty brave to go out even that deep with your camera.
I think you might be overestimating how deep I was.
It was literally like I was only in the wave splash zone.
And the most I got was if the wave at maximum splash was tall enough to get the bottom of my shorts wet.
yeah those waves did look pretty small though and a few pictures you had but yeah like if the water is touching your bathing suit yes you think oh i'm fine right especially because when the big one comes so much water will go out that it'll just be barely touching your ankles and you'll take two steps in and the big one comes and you're not paying attention sploosh anyway i'm glad you you dodged the bullet uh and managed to uh keep your camera alive and take some good pictures
Yeah, I really got a lot of great pictures, and I spent a lot of time just picking through them and lightly processing them, posting them on Instagram.
I think now I'm kind of getting what vacation is about.
Funnily enough, though, every time I take a vacation where I have my giant 15-inch MacBook Pro, I am so happy I have that 15-inch MacBook Pro and not anything smaller or weaker.
Because the things I do on vacation, either I need nothing from it, or I need all the power and screen space I can get.
So my previously stated plans about maybe going to a 13-inch MacBook Pro when the new ones come out, those plans are out the window, and I'm going to either keep what I have or get the new 15.
Yeah, I honestly don't understand how anyone who doesn't travel for a living has anything smaller than a 15-inch laptop.
I typically do not use my work laptop at home, and it's always clamshelled at work.
And whether or not you think that's a smart choice, whatever.
But the point is, I very rarely use the screen on the laptop.
But every time I do, I couldn't agree with you more.
I don't understand how anyone could do anything productive with less real estate.
Again, if you're like traveling professionally, totally get that.
But for regular humans, oh, 15 all the way.
Oh, yeah.
I tweeted the other day, I pissed everybody off, where I said basically, as I'm using my laptop, the things I want are better battery and faster.
The thing I don't really care about is make it 15% lighter, whatever measure I used.
And this got a lot of people angry because they were saying, I walk with mine to work every day, blah, blah, blah.
And I would love for it to be 15% lighter.
And I get that because I used to do that too.
I did that for years.
The majority of the time I worked at Tumblr, I was walking with a laptop in a bag pretty far every day.
And most of the time it was a 15 inch.
And this was back when the 15 inch was like 5.7 pounds.
Now I think they're 4.5 and they're probably about to get lighter.
So like...
I know what that's like.
In fact, much of that time, I also had an SLR and a couple of lenses in the back with me as well, which was not kind to my shoulders.
So I get that if you're walking with it back and forth, that does that does, you know, the total weight of it does matter.
However, when you get down to like you have like already a four and a half or whatever pound laptop, if the weight savings brings it down, like let's say let's say it's a pretty good saving.
Let's say it goes from four and a half pounds to four pounds.
That's a pretty substantial savings in the world of laptop upgrades, basically.
Suppose they blow it out of the water somehow, which I think is unrealistic.
But let's say they go to three and a half.
So let's say they shave a whole pound off of it.
Again, I think that's unrealistic.
But if they do that, the total weight of the bag you're carrying is probably like 15 pounds.
People carry a lot of stuff in their bags.
The bag itself weighs a lot empty.
If you're carrying a power adapter or not, that's like another almost pound.
People carry so much that if you really, really need to save...
half a pound or one pound in the carry weight of your bag there are probably many other ways you can do that and if you're carrying enough stuff you actually might not quite notice that very much like it so basically i i think people when when they speculate on how much they need laptop weight savings in these little increments
i think they might be overestimating how much they would actually notice that in practice how much difference it would actually make in practice and ignoring ways that you could save that in some other way so for example like one of the ways i save weight when i was walking to and from work with laptops every day is i just got a second power adapter and kept one at work so i never had a power adapter in my bag yep and that alone these are you know this was the 15 inch days so that saved like a pound right there you know
Simple stuff like that.
If you carry an iPad, maybe don't carry the keyboard.
There's stuff like that.
There are ways you can either spend a bit of money to have some redundancy on both ends, things like power adapters or accessories, or just make some tough decisions about, do I really need to carry this thing?
If carry weight's a big problem, I highly suggest using a backpack and not a messenger bag.
There's lots of other ways you can do this that will have way larger effects than if your laptop alone with no other changes got 15% lighter.
I agree.
All right.
We should probably do a little bit of follow-up now that we're 20 minutes into the program.
Just a little.
Yeah.
I'd like to start with a couple of notes.
First of all, I have returned my 32 gigs of RAM.
I have received 32 replacement gigs of RAM, and my uptime is currently nine days.
Are you plugged into the UPS?
Yes, I am.
Okay.
And I'm expecting the...
Are you recording in mauve format?
I am recording in every freaking format under the sun.
What color are you recording in?
Are you recording in mauve?
That's not even how you pronounce the color.
Oh my goodness.
But anyway, so I have nine days uptime so far.
We'll see if it continues.
Of course, now I have several system updates I've been putting off for my testing purposes, so please don't hack me.
But...
So far, so good, as I knock very quietly on wood.
Moving on, I have not yet looked at the Reddit because I don't really go to Reddit ever.
And I haven't been trolling their mentions because I haven't had the time nor the inclination yet.
However, if the entire Internet isn't beating the piss out of Hello Internet for issuing an episode on vinyl, then I give up because I paid the price for saying that vinyl may not be an embarrassment for months and months.
And here it is.
They're releasing an entire special episode of Hello Internet on vinyl.
If all of you jerks aren't going after them.
Really?
I didn't even know this.
He's been on vacation.
If all of you jerks aren't going after them like you went after me, then I'm sorely disappointed because they deserve it.
you shouldn't be because they're doing it as a joke get it it's funny and on the show where they talk about it they both they throw in a few digs at the people who think vinyl sounds better haha those people what are they thinking right like so they're on they're on the right side there on this whole thing and the whole idea is that it's silly and a joke the entire thing is a joke so why would people make fun if they had released it and said finally people can listen to our voices in a higher fidelity format then people would be on them believe me but that's not what they said
I wonder like how many people who so this is this is apparently extremely sold out now.
How many people who buy this have a way to even play it?
Like if I discussed on the program, like I went here to come buy it.
But like if if I even could get myself a copy, which I can't right now, they're sold out.
But if I could get one, I'd have to like go to my mom's house or go to Casey's dad's house to actually play it.
And by the way, because vinyl is so stupid, it's only 45 minutes long and you have to flip it in the middle.
You clearly did not live through the Laserdisc era.
They should have used SmartSpeed to record and they could have put more on.
Well, yeah, at least Laserdisc players, most of them, the whole head would flip so you didn't have to move the disc.
But yeah, I'm glad you pointed out that you'd have to go to my dad's house because I really don't think most people understand that I don't even have a record player.
I don't have a turntable because I don't have the space nor the inclination for it.
Because they're terrible.
In any case, I expect the internet to say, hello, hello, internet.
You guys are idiots because that's what you did to me.
And I understand the distinction.
But you shouldn't expect it.
you understand it's a joke do you understand that on the program they directly addressed the thing that everyone was yelling at you about and they said the opposite of what you said yeah sort of um i mean i heard it i heard it but anyway uh so yeah so all of you jerks you can uh go after them now can we release an episode on cassette sure maybe actually although you know what we should do mini disc a track a floppy disc
eight track god you are old and uh floppy disk you're not gonna get a lot of space you don't have to flip that it just keeps playing that's true actually if we really cram down the bitrate and do like he aac uh i'm pretty sure we can get like 10 minutes on a floppy maybe no it should come on like 17 floppy disks
That'd be amazing.
That would be awesome.
I think I've told the story before, but my biggest floppy disk story is, you remember the 1984 Apple commercial?
Well, in the early days of QuickTime, Apple put out a QuickTime version of the 1984 commercial, which must have been
like lower resolution than than a mac os icon is today and it was like with the cinepack compression algorithm it looked terrible and it was really small uh and but i was so excited to have it like i had a digital version of that commercial today you know because back before you had a video on the internet how many times as a mac fan had you seen the apple 1984 commercial
on like on the clio awards you know retrospectives and stuff like that but in general you tended not to see the ad anywhere you couldn't just go look at it on youtube there was no youtube there's no video so finally i had a copy on video uh but the only way i could store it anywhere was to put it on floppy disk because that was my only removable media so i did a multi-part stuff at expander archive on 20 in 25 parts and on 25 floppy disks oh my god
I think I still have like a rubber band around the thing.
It's like 25 floppy disks.
And if I was to take them, put each floppy disk in, piece at a time onto like a hard drive or something, and then reassemble them into whole, then decompress it, I would have a tiny postage stamp size video of this commercial.
So my favorite floppy disk story, which I've mentioned probably on the show before, was when I was a kid, we ran OS2 at home because dad worked for IBM.
And you can say a bunch of terrible things about OS2, but in some ways it was superior.
God, this doesn't sound familiar at all, does it?
But anyway...
Yeah, so OS2 was the vinyl of operating systems.
In some ways, it was superior, but I got my hand, well, dad got his hands on a beta of OS2 warp, and that thing was on, I kid you not, something like 50 floppy disks.
Well, they were the, you know, what was it, three and a half?
So they weren't really floppy at that point.
But anyway, the three and a half inch disk.
Well, they were internally floppy.
Yeah, right?
And so I remember installing that thing.
It took me like 14 weeks because it was just sit there and wait across each of these discs.
It was ridiculous.
See, this is why I'm not nostalgic about vinyl because I grew up with a record player in the house that my mom used regularly and that I would occasionally use as well.
And it annoyed me.
And I grew up then, eventually when computers happened, I grew up with five and a quarter and then three and a half inch floppy disks and lived through cassette tapes before CDs were a thing.
So all these old technologies...
Like us looking back on vinyl, I think is going to be like if if our children, when they are old enough to to become their own version of hipsters, when they look, if they have like fond recollections of cassette tapes, even though they really kind of never use them and they're terrible.
Like, I don't know.
Vinyl to me is I don't see why it's any better than cassette tapes and cassette tapes themselves are terrible.
And we moved on and I've moved on and the world has moved on and everyone has moved on except Casey.
Right.
So speaking of moving on from old things, let's talk about installing operating systems on one machine and then moving to another.
Oh, geez, I forgot about this.
Yeah, a lot of people are angry at Marco because Marco said mean things about Windows and he was angry and now people are angry that he was angry.
But I'm mostly setting that aside because I feel like Marco has taken his medicine from all the Windows users who have emailed him to tell him what he said is wrong.
Oh, no.
I have opinions about that.
Oh, God.
All right.
Well, anyway, you can address that.
But the only reason I put this in here is because one of the points that was brought up, and in fact I brought up in the program, was the idea that Marco was going to install Windows onto an external drive and boot multiple...
possibly different machines from it, like boot a laptop, not just two 5K iMacs, but boot a laptop from it, or install Windows when it's connected to a laptop, then use that same disk to boot the 5K iMac, which has very different hardware.
And many Windows wrote in to tell us, well, why did you ever think that would work?
And like I said on the program, that's a bad idea for a variety of reasons.
But it's not just as Mac or Apple fans might think.
because os 10 is better and windows is crappy because os 10 as most mac users know you can install that on a disconnected to pretty much any computer and then plug it into pretty much any other computer and it boots that computer fine yeah which one person wrote in to say you know os 10 wouldn't work that way either and yeah it actually does work that way the vast majority of the time yeah i replied to that i replied to the person yeah it does but here's the thing all right so this is all true it does work that way and if you're mostly a mac user or mostly recently a mac user
you might think that Windows work the same way, like it's a reasonable mistake.
Not quite as reasonable for Marco to spend a long time with Windows, but still, we'll set that aside.
But like I said, the reason OS X works that way and Windows doesn't is not because Microsoft is dumb and Apple is smart in this particular case.
It's because it's basically impossible for Windows to do what OS X does.
OS X installs everything online.
In its OS installation, all the drivers, just everything on there.
Because why not?
It only supports a very limited range of hardware.
Apple knows every piece of hardware in every single machine that is officially supported by this operating system.
And that set of hardware is small.
Windows can't take every driver for every machine that Windows can possibly run on and install it because your installation would be gigantic.
It's literally impossible.
There's too many drivers from too many different places.
They have to do a thing where they do kind of like a custom install for just the hardware that you have.
Now, you might say that Windows could then, after boot up time, be smarter about pulling down new drivers on demand or whatever, but anything involved in the boot process or like getting the video driver to work so your thing can even get to the point where it's downloading stuff, it's very complicated.
Like basically...
The option that Apple goes with is not available to Microsoft.
They cannot say, we're just going to install the same files in every single Windows installation, and then it'll boot every single computer.
So if you had thought about it for a little while, even if you had no experience with Windows, you would think, wait.
They can't do the Apple thing, which is kind of a shame, and it's Microsoft's own fault for having the business model that brought them to massive dominance of the PC industry for most of my entire life.
But here it is, a boomerang back around, and it means that Marco can't get a game to work in a timely fashion.
All right.
So a couple of very small updates to that story.
Basically, so most of the hatred for my actions in this story, which, again, was quite strong.
Most of the hatred focused on a few key points.
Number one was I can't believe you expected that to work by having an external drive installation move between computers, as you covered just now.
Yeah, you're right.
I shouldn't have expected that to work.
I forgot how picky Windows was about drivers.
I haven't used Windows reliably or I haven't used Windows really at all in about 10 years.
And I haven't used it heavily in about 12 years.
So, yeah.
is a somewhat reasonable chance that you could have thought that this would work because you were of course installing the boot camp drivers and the boot camp drivers are in exactly the same situation as like they only have to support a limited amount of hardware so in theory perhaps the boot camp drivers had they been really good and comprehensive could have installed the full set of drivers that would boot any boot camp capable machine but obviously they did not do that and we've heard from many people that the boot camp drivers are a little bit old and creaky and have not kept up with the advancements in windows which doesn't surprise me because
apple support for boot camp always seems kind of half-hearted in the last let's say half decade right but but yeah to be fair i that is that is that is the assumption i made secondly um the the issue came up that uh i did i did hit the skip activation thing or like remind me later about activation and setup
The reason why I hit that is not because I was being lazy.
And I forgot to mention this during the show.
It's because I knew people had told me that if you activate on the external drive and you plug it into a different computer, it'll break the activation and you'll have to reactivate by calling Microsoft or whatever the heck you have to do.
So I knew that was a risk, so I was waiting until it was going to be on the computer that the game was going to be played on to activate.
So I was trying to get the whole thing set up on my laptop so I wouldn't have to disturb Tiff's computer and its uptime because she was working on it.
So I was trying to get it all set up on my laptop first, and then I was going to move the driver over there, activate it there so it wouldn't break,
and then move on.
There's also ways that you can get like, you know, pirate keys, volume license keys to get around this.
But I was doing this legally.
So, you know, I couldn't, I had to actually follow the wonderfully abusive, legitimate customer restrictions.
Thank you.
Thank you, DRM.
Yeah, that's the penalty I get for doing things legally.
And finally, the argument that I was being unfair to Windows and that Windows doesn't suck and that I suck for saying that Windows is stupid, I respectfully disagree.
Even though some of the things I did were not correct, Windows is stupid and it does suck.
I'm sure that will totally address that email.
Yes.
Totally.
Good counter argument.
Yes.
We'll summarize that in all caps by saying no U with the O and the U transposed.
One more tidbit on Inside before we move on to Marco's fame and glory.
If you want to hear both me and Tiff talk about Inside, as played on both the Mac and PS4, there will be an upcoming episode of The Incomparable that we are both on where we discuss it, and I hope Marco was far away from the room when that was going on because we spoiled the whole thing.
Actually, I went to the entire other side of the house just so I wouldn't overhear anything.
Good plan.
Anyway, play the game, then listen to the incomparable.
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Today, or no, was it yesterday?
Yesterday, I'm sorry.
The App Store made some news, and then I think there was a little bit more today as well.
So yesterday, Apple has said that they're going to start removing old and busted apps from the store.
That's my summary, but that's basically what it amounts to.
And they also said that the names of apps can no longer be something like Tweetbot, a power user's Twitter client or something like that.
Actually, they probably still would fit.
Well, you know what I mean.
So it has to be 50 characters or less.
And the idea is they don't want you gaming their piss poor search by adding search keywords and terms into your app title.
So they expect the app titles to be 50 characters or less.
awesome this is great news i'm really pleased by this so i have nothing really i have not much more to say i think fast text would have run afoul of this most likely and to be honest that's a good thing yeah i mean this is a very very good thing in general i mean you know if you look at like you know they're a little light on these specifics of what they're going to prune out but it basically it's like you know if the app crashes on launch it'll be removed immediately
So, like, you know, if you have some old app that no longer literally doesn't even work, they're just pulling it with no warning to the developer.
Just, you know, oh, well.
You know, they're also – they're enforcing basically if there's any new rules that weren't around when the app first passed app review but it is actually violating those rules, then they are retroactively enforcing them.
So, basically, like, you know, it used to be that if you got through once –
or before the rule was in effect you could basically keep doing it forever and as long as you didn't update your app which is you know not a great system um so they're kind of closing that loophole now they're going to go back and and re-review apps under modern rules uh and if if they if they no longer pass the rules because the rules have changed or that or something slipped through uh that they will now be enforcing that on those apps and removing them if they have to
And then the big thing, which I think is more interesting, is basically, I forget exactly how they phrased it, but it's like unmaintained or abandoned apps.
And so they haven't said specifically what that means, but what I assume that would mean are things like if you still don't have a 64-bit binary, because I'm assuming part of the reason they're doing this is to get the App Store ready for a future version of iOS, probably iOS 11 that doesn't have 32-bit support at all and won't launch 32-bit apps at all.
Things like if you still don't have retina support or if you still don't have support for the larger screens on the phones.
On the iPad, I'll be interested to see how strict they will be because the iPad has a lot more challenges in this department.
iPads were non-retina for longer and a lot of iPad software got written in the non-retina days and then never updated because it wasn't worth it to pay some consultants to update your software or to rewrite games or whatever else.
I wonder, are they going to be as strict on the iPad?
You know, the the 12.9 inch iPad launched and it's really it's really crappy to use 9.7 inch apps on the 12.9 inch iPad, especially if you have to use the keyboard for any kind of text input.
The onscreen keyboard is horrible when it gets blown up.
So it'll be interesting to see basically how strictly they enforce that kind of unmaintained and abandoned rule.
Assuming it applies to things like supporting new screen sizes and new modern builds that include the right architecture and stuff like that, but then basically how strict will they be and what else will it include?
I can't imagine them doing the screen size thing, unless they include other factors, because I have apps from large multinational corporations that are updated very frequently that still don't support my iPhone 6's screen size.
You can tell from the slightly too big keyboard and everything.
These are not abandoned.
These apps that are frequently updated, bugs are fixed, features are added, and yet they still don't support...
the screen size so i don't think that qualifies as abandoned and i don't think apple can politically speaking pull apps like that under the guise of we're cleaning out abandoned things the 64-bit 32-bit yeah because that's coming no matter what anyway and they're just laying the groundwork but screen size i don't think especially like i think their definition of abandoned has to be some set of those things plus also has not been updated in six months or a year or something
Maybe, but I don't know.
Some of these things they can enforce at the iTunes Connect level.
So they could say iTunes Connect no longer accepts apps that are 32-bit only, which it probably hasn't for over a year now.
They could say things like iTunes Connect no longer will allow you to submit an app that doesn't support the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus screen sizes.
And then six months after that, they can say, well, if you don't support the screen sizes and haven't updated your app in over six months...
They can make a loophole if they want to.
And that is probably how some of these things will play out.
Most apps that do that, if they're still getting updates... Actually, the official Tesla app is one of these apps where the Tesla app gets updates every few months, but it still doesn't support the iPhone 6 and 6 Plus screen sizes.
Like, it has the modern keyboard and everything, but it's still just not supporting larger screens, because, like, it's all, like, pixel-perfect iOS 6-style designed, and I assume they don't want to, like, go back and pay somebody to redesign it to blow it up and everything.
But, like, that's kind of crappy, and so this... If they can use this to push...
companies to update their ancient broken apps that they're basically just not updating out of laziness or not moving to modern stuff because of laziness or just not wanting to allocate the funds for it.
This is probably a good thing.
It's definitely a good thing for users.
And for developers who are in the consulting business, it is almost certainly a good thing because this is probably going to be a big boon to consulting because all these companies that have all these ancient iPhone and iPad apps are
They didn't really have any kind of push before to want to put more money into them, but now they're going to have a big push if Apple says, you need to update this to support X or we're going to pull you out of the App Store in 30 days.
I still think the vast majority of this is going to be cleaning out the crap that no one has looked at in forever.
That also isn't making any more money.
So I think the vast majority of the garbage is just...
just crap that was released once never updated stop making money three and a half years ago and it's just in the store like and and the the meta story about this has everyone who has written anything about it has pointed out and as i think is obvious to everybody looking at it is this marks the end of the era when apple
is uh touting the number of applications in the app store is their prime measure of how awesome they're doing it's like i mean they should have stopped this long ago because as i think we've all talked about on past programs over the years once you get into the hundreds of thousands or millions the number of apps you have in the app store is a detriment to the user experience not uh not a boon so
Especially when your search is horrendous, Apple.
The App Store is better if they delete several hundred thousand crap apps.
That's exactly the thing.
The search is a massive angle to this.
As we said at first, they're prohibiting spamming your app with keywords that are not related to what it does, and they're setting a cap on 50 characters now.
I don't know what the cap was before, but I've seen some pretty long app titles.
It's basically like four sentences after the first word of describing all the things it does and mentioning every big app.
Like, oh, this works for Instagram and Twitter and all the spammers.
But a lot of this, these things wouldn't be as big of a problem in the app store if the search was better.
And so a lot of critics have pointed out, rightly so, that these things are nice, but if you just fix the search...
It would solve itself, yeah, because the web is full of crap, too, but Google manages to find stuff on it.
Exactly.
So it is kind of... I mean, on one hand, it's a little bit frustrating that Apple is kind of jumping through hoops to do things that better search would alleviate.
On the other hand, it seems pretty clear that... Better search is not coming.
Yeah.
Yeah, that Apple just isn't very good at search, especially on the whoever manages App Store search, like whatever they're doing over there, whatever methods and algorithms they're using, they just can't seem to pull together a really good search.
And so if it's not going to happen, then you might as well do things around it to alleviate how crappy it is for people.
They should do both.
I'm assuming they are doing both, but this is the easy first thing to do.
It really is a benefit to... Because the App Store is not the web.
I just mentioned the web.
The web is just full of crap and the magic for Google.
It finds out the pages that are actually worth you finding, even though millions and millions of pages match whatever you type into the search box, they find the one that is the best match, meaning not just a spammy abandon where...
But Google doesn't control the web entirely yet.
They can't clean out the crappy web pages.
But the whole idea between the App Store, if you had read any story about the App Store in the first few years, your chances of seeing the word curated in the article were very, very high.
And what Apple has done with the App Store...
is does not really fit any reasonable definition of curated because if you are curating any kind of collection of anything you just wouldn't allow this kind of crap to a enter in the first place which they've been getting better about you know hey we don't need any more fart apps remember that era right
And B, you wouldn't let it sit there.
Curating means realizing that there is 300,000 applications that crash on launch that haven't been downloaded in several years, except for by support on suspecting people who get bad results from your terrible search, right?
Curating means you've got to clean that crap out.
And yes, they should make search better.
But you should also do this.
Otherwise, don't pretend that you're really curating all you're really doing is
exerting control but you don't care about the state of the collection all you care about is like the gate like we don't want to let any apps in that violate our current set of arbitrary rules but once they're in whatever we don't curate the collection we just curate the door you know we're just the bouncer but once you get in you can you can die on the floor and and slowly decompose and we won't even look at you
That analogy got a little grim in the end.
Yeah, a little bit.
Oh, goodness.
And then Apple has also updated their official review guidelines, I guess is what happened.
And they've made some clarifications about subscriptions, which is interesting to several people.
And Marco, you caught wind of this.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of people did.
There's a lot of sites now that basically provide diffs for, like, anytime Apple changes their review guidelines, there's sites now that will just tell you, like, here's what changed.
They'll even, like, alert you.
Sometimes they'll email you.
Or they'll tweet about it.
It's pretty great services.
So anyway, everyone immediately notices that, oh, the review guidelines have had some...
modifications and some of it is, you know, simple expected stuff to, to things like sticker pack rules for the upcoming iOS 10 launch.
It's probably happening probably next week or sometime very soon.
And so that's cool.
But then they also basically clarified the auto renewing subscription rules a little bit.
Cause you know, as we, as we learned early in the summer, right before WWDC, they, they announced they were bringing subscriptions, basically allowing them for all categories of apps, not just like publications anymore.
Um,
And it was kind of left vague and unstated and then later slightly clarified by Phil Schiller on the talk show live actually at WBDC about like, you know, could like productivity apps just charge a subscription for updates?
And like basically, could you charge a subscription for just using the app instead of like content that was being delivered or a web service or anything else?
And that was left unspecified and vague until yesterday when they basically said, I forget exactly what they said, but it was a list of things that would be most likely permitted.
And they're still a little noncommittal.
And basically, it's like you have to basically submit and try.
But it was always that way.
But one of the things in the list of examples that would be permitted was apps that have frequent and substantial updates.
close so close if only there were a way for you to know what that rule said yeah if only if if only i would have done some homework casey and i are both staring at it as you say there's no way to really know what was said exactly but if it had been in the notes and somehow put into bold texts oh there it is exactly which part you should look at just had to change tabs we're still in follow-up
Yes.
No, this should have been moved.
This should have moved now.
This is a topic.
This was before the second part of the story came out about the 50-character limit and the whatever.
So anyway, this would have been a follow-up on because we were all, at least I was, remember being very angry about this rule because...
The written rule and what Phil said seemed to be at odds.
And it was like, just make it clear.
It doesn't really matter what Phil Schiller says because you can't submit your app and then say, well, Phil Schiller said this thing I saw at WWDC.
That's not how rules work.
You have to, if you're writing rules, make them as clear as you possibly can.
And it was frustrating to me that...
It didn't seem like Apple had its act together.
And we were questioning, like, does that mean that if you make an application for like a productivity app or whatever, and you just offer updates every year or so, like major updates, can you make a subscription to that or not?
That's what we all wanted to know.
And the clarification and the exact words of the type of things that can allow for subscription pricing are apps that offer consistent, substantive updates, which is not particularly precise, but it clearly lays out
You don't need to have new game levels or episodic content or anything like that.
Just consistent support, consistent updates and substantive updates.
So that's still open to interpretation, but it doesn't say anything about you being a media app, anything about you being a game, anything about you having like a magazine issues or new content.
It just merely says...
You gotta update it.
There's gotta be consistent and there has to be something in them.
They have to be like, not just, oh, I added, you know, I had one tiny little tweak here, one new preference, right?
And so I think that's what people wanted.
They just wanted to note clearance for like, okay, if I think, and then it's just arguing over what counts as a substantive update.
And I think if people do a 2.0 and it's got like, like if you did a 2.0 and include streaming, you'd win that argument with any reasonable person if you were allowed to have it to say, that's a substantial update.
This is a major feature, major new capabilities.
And if you had a subscription pricing to Overcast, 1.0 didn't have streaming and 2.0 did.
I think everybody, including Apple, would be all thumbs up on that.
And that's all we were looking for back when this rule came out, just to understand the scope of subscription.
And then we can just argue about the details.
And it still is going to be like you still have to submit kind of blindly and just hope they allow you to do it.
But this at least gives you a pretty good indication that like if you're using this responsibly, they will probably allow it.
You can start development.
I guess the best thing about it is like before you didn't even know whether it was worthwhile to start development.
Now you can start development.
I feel like if you get rejected, they can say, oh, that's not a substantial enough update.
And you can say, okay, well, I'll just work more and add more features.
And presumably at some point you could say, now this surely is worthy of a substantial update.
And now I, you know, of course, if you take too long, then your updates are no longer consistent.
But I feel like this gives people the cover they need to begin development, which is all anyone really wants to know.
Like, am I wasting my time entirely on this?
Or if I'm acting in good faith with my understanding of how this works, the language is now on the same page with what Phil Schiller said.
And I feel like it should make everybody...
relax and feel better he says foolishly before everyone gets rejected for major updates but we'll see how this works out we are all sponsored this week by casper an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price go to casper.com slash atp and use code atp for 50 towards your mattress
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Hi.
John posted a week ago a collection of scans, I presume, or perhaps pictures of old artwork that he had done, generally speaking, as a kid.
I found this fascinating, and we'll put links to all these pieces in the show notes.
Basically, it was on John's Instagram account, profile, whatever you call it.
I had known, John, that you fancied yourself a bit of an artist when you were a kid.
And I thought that meant that your artistic skills were better than just stick figures, which puts you ahead of almost everyone I know.
Then I see all these pictures and I realized, holy crap.
I don't know if you knew this, but you could really, really draw really, really well.
Yeah, they were really good.
So FYI, that's the thing.
It's like you don't read anything that I write.
It's like the first hypercritical thing that I wrote.
What's the first line of that?
It's a Goodfellas reference even.
It's a double whammy.
Look, we knew from following you and reading and listening to your stuff, we knew that you used to be some kind of artist, but we didn't know the degree or what you drew really.
All we knew was that you had said that you had done it for a while and you were too critical about it and you couldn't get over how critical you were of your own work.
No, you
got to reread that to understand yeah probably the point of that thing was yes in the beginning was uh you know as far back as i can remember blah blah blah i was told i want to grow up to be an artist and then you read the whole thing you realize like why didn't i do that it's because my actual skill wasn't artistic talent which is why i didn't pursue it my actual skill was
being able to draw something and look at it and know what was wrong with it and then you just fix it and you just repeat that process and if you just keep repeating it the picture gets better and better the longer you work on it but that's not how that's not how real artists work well they kind of how they work but anyway i realize my own limitations in all fairness you have you have made a very good living by being a complainer professionally exactly if you're going to look at where are you going to make more money uh drawing pictures that uh drawing copies of other people's pictures or complaining about stuff apparently complaining about stuff is much more lucrative
well if you're good at it and you are really good at complaining about stuff a lot of practice to be good at complaining about stuff you can't just complain a lot about it you have to be able to complain well about it and that's what like you are so good at complaining well anybody can complain I complain all the time but I'm not nearly as good at it as you are you a professional top notch like world class complainer about anything you need to get the practice to I messed it up complaining Carnegie Hall practice kid
Well, you don't even know that saying I mangled it too much.
It was unrecognizable.
I apologize.
I'm an old man.
Oh, my goodness.
So anyway, I didn't I don't have too much more to say about these other than I genuinely, genuinely was dumbfounded at how good they were because I expected it to be.
like you know uh stick figures plus plus if you will and that's not a new underscore app what i mean by that is you know just the next the next level up from yeah not yet anyway i would love to see that app actually that would be pretty awesome it'll it'll be like uh pinpoint slash bug shot but uh but with underscore spin on it
So I thought it was just going to be better than your average 12 or 15-year-old or what have you, which I guess, yes, this was.
But these were way better than your average 12 to 15-year-old.
I remember vividly when I was, I don't know, in second or third grade, which is younger than what we're talking about, I had freehand drawn a picture of Garfield the Cat.
And done, if I may say so, an extraordinarily impressive job of it.
This is my crowning achievement as an artist.
In fact, it's pretty much my only achievement as an artist.
And I would show all my classmates as like a first or second grader what this was.
And they would all be like, oh, you just trace that.
And how do you fix this problem when you're in first or second grade?
And I've got to have this somewhere, but it'll take me 10 years to dig it up.
what i did to fix this problem of oh you just trace that is i wrote in big very thick letters in all caps i did not trace this next to the picture of garfield that's what most great artists put on their things actually if you look it's there and it's very fine print but anyway i was stunned by how good these were and and i and i'm really really genuinely impressed by them and and i want to see more of them so uh find some more and post them if you please my attic is full of this crap but uh
Yeah, no, like I said in the hypercritical article, the secret to all this stuff is, first of all, as I stated, and I think every single description on Instagram for these things, almost all these things are from another, like, direct copies of a painting or a poster or something that was, you know, probably on my wall from some thing.
Like, I didn't do the... These aren't originals, right?
Even the ones that are just of random people are taken from, like, people from magazines or compositive pictures of magazines.
But most of them are just...
exactly direct copies and all you need to make a perfect copy of like a cool poster or painting or a book cover or something else you know as i was into all these you know fantasy book series or whatever and i got these calendars with the big posters and stuff all you need to be able to make an amazing copy of what is already an amazing piece of art is the ability to know when you've drawn something have i drawn it like that thing over there or have i messed it up in some way
And that's it.
Right.
And you just repeat that process.
And eventually you end up with essentially a larger version of the book cover that you were copying the whole time.
And the barrier most people have to doing that is somewhat artistic ability, but mostly they will draw what they think is they see in the book cover.
And then they will look up at the book cover and look down at what they've drawn on their giant poster-sized piece of paper and think, yeah, that's about right, and they'll just continue.
And if you do that repeatedly, you end up with this terrible misshapen blob that only looks vaguely like what was in the book cover, and it doesn't look good.
So you've got to draw what's actually on the book cover, and you have to know when you've drawn something...
You know, too big, too small at the wrong angle.
And then you too, if you have this one particular skill, can essentially make an amazing copy of some other artist's piece of work and get all the credit for making this great picture.
I mean, most of the people who looked at this who know the Dragonlance series recognize these pictures because they're famous pictures from that series made by amazing actual artists.
And they drew it from whole cloth from their head because they're actual artists.
I was merely a very skilled mimic.
well regardless of what you think you were and whether or not you think you were good i i it was and remain extremely impressed i was good for my age that's why i put most of these in it up it's like as i get older it gets less impressive to do something like this when you're 18 but you do it when you're 13 you're like it's pretty good for a 13 year old even a 13 year old mimic i did have some other originals and you've seen my crappy paintings that are around the house i mean painting is obviously much harder
But they're from a similar time period when I'm like late single digit ages or like getting close into my teens.
But, you know, these these have sentimental value is I had these things all over my walls for my childhood bedroom.
So I was just happy to find them in the attic and have them all be intact.
And like, you know what, I should record these because who knows what will happen to them in the future now.
I've got them in digital form.
Yep.
Real-time follow-up from my buddy Spencer.
It appears that it is about 10 minutes per meg and a half of MP3 data if you really, really, really break it down.
Well, that's using the HEAAC format.
Thank you, yes.
And pretty well compressed.
So our dream of issuing an episode of ATP on 17 floppy disks might actually be reasonably possible.
Indeed.
The theme song is going to sound like crap.
Yes, it was.
And then you had to find someplace to buy floppy disks in bulk.
And a drive to write them all.
I've got you covered there.
Oh, yeah.
I actually might have a USB floppy drive around here somewhere.
I did have one very recently, and I don't know what I did with it, but I might be able to help out.
Regardless, iCloud storage has a new option now.
There's now two terabytes for 20 bucks a month.
That's cool, I guess.
Yeah, before it was capped out at one terabyte.
And that's actually the plan that Tiff and I have for our giant photo libraries.
And that's nice.
However, before, like if you needed more than one terabyte, probably for photos, you basically just couldn't.
There was no option.
Now there is.
Now you can go to two terabytes, which is nice.
Twice the money, twice the space.
Okay.
I think it's not insanely competitive on that pricing, but it's not too terrible.
And it's nice to have the option.
Yeah, as you pointed out, if you don't have the option, you just feel terrible.
My brother was in this situation with his photo library.
He has a similar size Sony camera to me, but he got his many years ago, and he has multiple kids, and he shoots everything in RAW.
He was over a terabyte.
I was like, how can you be over a terabyte?
Your oldest kid is like three, but he takes a lot of pictures, and RAWs are really big.
But anyway, he was over a terabyte, so he couldn't use the iCloud Photos library.
Uh, and he just had to find other, uh, things to, uh, you know, other ways to back up his stuff.
And it was, you know, it's like, geez, it's kind of a shame.
Like there's no amount of money he could give to Apple to say, please just take my photos.
And now finally they offer a two terabyte option.
So I excitedly sent him an eye message.
Hey, you can finally upload your photo library.
He said, no, after the summer I'm over two terabytes too.
My solution is actually very simple.
Delete photos.
Anything that is being shot by a real camera first goes into Lightroom.
And Lightroom is where I do all the picking, all the editing.
Then when I'm done with processing an event, I export all those as very high quality JPEGs.
...into Photos app.
Basically, Raw never goes into Photos because Lightroom is better at it, first of all, and also just for, again, these space reasons of syncing these to all the devices, even thumbnail or not, and then speed, and then catalog size, and iCloud limits of space like this.
So that kind of system is much more cumbersome, but does result in a way better Photos experience, with the bonus that when I import an event into Photos...
Because I've already picked all the crappy photos out and have only exported perfectly processed awesome ones, it looks like it does in Apple commercials and demos where all the pictures are perfect.
Because normally, if you look at my raw Lightroom library before everything gets picked through and edited, you have a million pictures of the same thing where I was trying to get exactly the right shot.
Half these are blurry or misexposed or whatever else.
And it does not look anything like the Apple commercials.
But my photos actually looks pretty close a lot of the time because it is only receiving the edited ones.
This is another example where it seems like Apple doesn't quite understand how the subset of its users use its products.
Because I think everybody who is even remotely into photography or has kids and likes to take pictures of them ends up with exactly like you said, a photo library filled with
tons of pictures some of them are just a mess and then in the good ones there's like it's not like you're in birth even if you're not in birth mode you take 50 pictures of you know the kid blowing out the candles trying to get the one shot right everybody does that that's how you take that's you know the secret to photography is take a ton of pictures then then hopefully you'll find one good one out of a thousand and eventually if you're really good one good one out of 500 right um
But you still have all those pictures.
And I guess the smart thing to do is to delete the other ones.
But if you have any sort of pack rat tendencies, you're like, well, even though these aren't the best picture, maybe it's someday I'll want to look back on the one where they make a funny face or whatever.
You know, you don't want to like there's the really excellent pictures that they graduate to could appear in an Apple ad.
But there's kind of mediocre ones that are still endearing.
Like, I have lots of pictures of my kids making funny faces that you'd never see in an Apple ad.
Or maybe it's even a little bit out of focus as they were running out of the frame, but it's like a funny scene or something.
I don't want to delete those, right?
But you do want to have a photo library that is just the good ones.
I do that with the favorites feature, which is, you know, putting the hearts in them or whatever.
But imagine if they had something that supported Marco's workflow, which I would do if it was all within one app, which is...
upload the raws go through them sort them out pick the ones that you really like do the adjustments burn down to jpeg and then hide everything that doesn't uh make the cut um i guess they would still force be forced to allow you to upload everything for backup purposes but it would sure make browsing a lot easier if you could if you didn't have to choose between delete forever and ever and ever and mostly don't show those and i know they have the ability to hide pictures and again they have favoriting and stuff like that so they kind of give
a hybrid solution but the fact that marco has to use two apps to do what i think is a very reasonable workflow is kind of a shame and the two terabyte option 20 bucks it's like apple i know not a lot of people do this but technologically speaking it's and financially speaking and business practice speaking it's not that much harder to offer three terabytes for 30 and four terabytes for 40
I can keep going with this crazy sequence.
And like, I don't know how much your storage costs.
Hell, put it on a different curve that's not linear.
But either way, like, I bet there are people out there, I know one of them, with libraries that are bigger than two terabytes, and they will pay you more money for more storage.
I know that's weird sounding, but it will happen.
So it would be great if Apple didn't wait another two years before they offer the three terabyte option.
For more money.
For more money, Apple.
I don't see my two-app solution changing anytime soon because for this to change realistically anytime soon, you would either need the Photos app to really have more pro-style editing controls and mechanics and workflows possible, which it really still doesn't.
It is better than iPhoto used to be, but not good enough for really pro-editing.
And it seems like Apple is also not very interested in making it
Or you'd have to have Lightroom get a lot better at cloud stuff.
And given Adobe's history there, they've tried a Lightroom-like or directly Lightroom cloud service something like three or four times by now, and they've all had really big flaws and really big problems.
So I think both of those are unlikely to be solved in the foreseeable future.
So this is left undone, and I will be using two apps for a very long time, as probably a lot of other people do.
Or they just put everything in Lightroom and don't touch photos.
Fair enough.
We still have predictions for next week's event to cover, but there's been a big brouhaha about tax stuff with Apple in Ireland, and we should attempt to briefly cover it.
Kids, this is when you look at the time count and see exactly how long this chapter lasts.
So the short, short version, which was actually summarized really, really well in a Vox article that we'll have in the show notes or an article on Vox, I should say.
The short, short version, as I understand it, is the European Union, which has some amount of governing power in general over Ireland as a member of the European Union, although they have no power over Ireland's taxing rules and situation.
has come to the conclusion that Apple and Ireland have some sort of vacuum deal that is beneficial to Apple, and that's against the non-competitive rules of the European Union.
So guess what?
Apple owes somebody, I guess Ireland, owes Ireland 13 billion euros, something to that effect.
Interestingly, well, uninterestingly, Apple says no freaking way.
But interestingly, Ireland is saying no freaking way.
Which you would think, here it is, they are setting, they are set up, they are alley-ooped.
That's a basketball thing, Marco.
Thank you.
They have been given the alley-oop for 13 billion euros, and they're saying no thank you.
And it appears that...
The best – well, the super simple explanation for that is they don't want to appear unfriendly to the many corporations that have based their European operations out of Ireland because Ireland is the Delaware of Europe for Americans.
And so –
That's the extraordinarily abridged summary.
My two cents on it, I don't feel like Apple has done anything wrong, but I also am not so sure that these laws... I'm not so sure these laws are really correct as written.
I think both the American laws about money earned elsewhere and repatriating that money seem kind of backwards and messed up.
The Irish laws...
from an outsider's point of view, seem like maybe they should be a little more aggressive on collecting taxes.
But from what little I've read on this, and admittedly it has not been a lot, it doesn't feel to me like Apple has done very much wrong.
They just haven't exactly been forthcoming with stuff that maybe morally they should have paid, even if legally they didn't have to.
So Marco, it appears you have some thoughts on this.
Go ahead.
uh i'll make mine quick because the the more i learn about this the less i have to say about it basically uh because it's very complicated and it is there's multiple sides of this the i think the there's there's like the european politics side of it which that's politics you know who who cares it isn't really a tech topic
Then there's the U.S.
basically tax haven side of it where you have companies that if they divert all their international sales to international subsidiaries and don't bring the cash back into the U.S., they basically can pay no U.S.
tax on it.
So Tim Cook is going around basically like obviously taking advantage of all these same things that most big companies do.
And I think they are honestly morally a little tricky or worse, but that is what's legal.
And so there are these giant loopholes and workarounds in our tax code that allow big companies to do this.
So the big companies do it.
Tim Cook, as the CEO, is basically responsible for doing this.
If he didn't do stuff like this, if Apple didn't use all the same tax-saving schemes as other big companies do that are perfectly legal, at least in the U.S., ignoring the European politics side of this for now...
If Apple didn't do all the same things, the shareholders would have Tim Cook's head because he'd be basically throwing away billions of dollars.
So basically, as long as these things continue to be the legal way to do things in the U.S.
that all other big companies do, Apple has to do them as well.
Otherwise, Tim Cook would be fired or sued.
So they have to do it.
However, I don't believe that they have to do as much campaigning as Tim Cook does about how the U.S.
must change its tax code to basically give them a huge tax break to bring that money back in.
So the whole – the summary of this basically is that if you keep the money offshore, you don't have to pay U.S.
tax.
If you bring it back into the U.S.
from your international subsidiaries, you have to pay U.S.
tax on it minus whatever you paid in foreign tax.
So the idea is you don't have to end up paying like double tax.
You just have to pay at least the U.S.
tax.
And if the foreign tax is higher, that's your deal with the foreign government to handle.
But if you end up – like you have to pay something.
And Apple basically is paying no tax on all their European earnings.
And, you know, so that's the high level of view.
I apologize if I got any of these details wrong.
And Tim Cook is going around in all these public statements and things, basically campaigning Washington and the public to support him in this effort to have corporate tax reform to let them bring in this international money into the U.S.
at what appears to be the goal of a substantially reduced tax rate.
And me, as a person who makes money worldwide but pays all my taxes in the great state of New York, I think that's BS.
I think if the companies can do all these little tricks and stuff by basically applying lots of accountants and lawyers and loopholes to save themselves billions of dollars...
Well, I hope the government fixes that because that seems like a poor allocation of the tax burden.
But for Tim Cook personally to use the same level of energy that he was using for the FBI fight for our privacy to now be – to basically try to have that same energy being spent on I demand that we be able to bring our money back into the U.S.
and to get a discount on our taxes –
No, that's not morally defensible.
It's just not.
So I don't support Tim Cook in that.
I think, yeah, if they want to do the same loopholes, fine.
But don't go like, you know, complaining in public that the U.S.
needs to allow you to bring your money back in and not pay your share of taxes on it.
No, you should pay your taxes the way all of us pay our taxes.
Well, he's not the same as the rest of us, but I think most of his defense, because he's the head of a giant multinational corporation that sells physical goods overseas, right, you know, and you're not doing that, but I think most of his defense seems to be centered around the idea that has been put forth by the European Union and everything, that two things, that Apple did something, like, wrong, like, they're not going to say illegal, because it wasn't illegal, but, like, sneaky and wrong, and that
It was sneaking wrong back then, and therefore you owe all those back taxes.
Even though you and Ireland agreed, at the time that you agreed on it, you didn't know this, but it was against our anti-competitive laws of the European Union.
So we want you to pay, not from now on, not going forward, because I feel like that's between the European Union and Ireland in terms of deciding, are some Irish tax laws in violation of the anti-competitive thing?
Because basically they don't want one country, like the Delaware of Europe,
to be able to attract all the economic activity, starving out the other countries.
They're trying to keep the countries from undercutting each other and hurting each other.
It's supposed to be a big European Union.
You're not supposed to have one stronger country crushing another one with the power of its tax subsidies for big companies or whatever.
So that's what the EU is trying to do.
I feel like that's between EU and Ireland to figure out what the deal is there.
But I think Apple's defense is we're not a sneaky criminal and
if you've decided, if, if you guys working out amongst yourselves, Ireland, European, whatever you got to do, if you decide that going forward, this isn't going to be the deal anymore, change your laws.
We'll comply with them, but we don't want to pay you back taxes on 13 billion.
And the U S laws being like, you pay the difference in taxes.
I feel like it is kind of weird for physical goods that you would, that you sell in a particular place.
Like,
Tax that where if you sell something... I mean, it's sneaky that you sell something in France and you get taxed for it in Ireland.
So that's still kind of messed up.
But the idea that the only reasonable tax system is no matter where you sell your things in the entire world, because the corporate headquarters is in the United States, that you pay United States tax rates.
I think that is... You need some amount of diversity in the world.
You need to allow countries to have lower tax rates to...
encourage economic activity countries out of the eu i'm sure there's plenty of countries elsewhere in the world that are not in the eu and not in the u.s that have lower corporate tax rates right or like hong kong or singapore or whatever i don't know singapore is a bad example but um you can't say like the u.s law is basically i don't care what your tax laws are if you are a u.s corporation and you make money
then we tax you with the u.s rate i don't care if we're taxing you on a sale that was made from a store in some other country to a person in another country i don't care about that i want your money because you're a u.s corporation because i feel like that's not a great system and it could lead to situations where people don't want to incorporate in the united states and they incorporate in the the global delaware instead or whatever uh but anyway tim cook's
sort of anger about this i feel like it mostly has been motivated by the injustice of having to pay essentially back taxes that are not owed it's as if the irs says you know the tax law it's been in effect for the past decade we decided that was actually not a good tax law so we're changing it and by the way pretend like it was in effect for the past 30 years or so and you all you also all back taxes on it so he's going against that because i feel like that's just not fair right who knows if that would actually happen but that's what he's complaining and
and the idea that they're sneaky or wrong, which is borderline because it's pretty sneaky.
Like, everything having to do with tax avoidance is pretty sneaky.
I don't think Tim Cook is responsible for setting up these sneaky laws, but on the other hand, it was, like, sneaky between a corporation and a government.
Like, again, Ireland was all for it because...
They want their little .005%.
.005% of a hojillion dollars is way better than 35% of zero dollars because Apple doesn't do its thing in Ireland anymore.
So it's kind of gross and kind of sneaky between Apple, but I really don't think...
saying that they owe back taxes makes all that much sense unless like i don't know what the european union process unless there's some sort of process where they can prove that as it turns out that that you're that ireland law tax law was always against the eu charter and then you got to work something out um and as for repatriating the money
again i think it's kind of weird that the u.s wants all the taxes to be at the u.s rate no matter where you sell things i don't feel like that's a scalable solution to a world economy uh but if you're going to do that yeah like i don't think tim cook saying we would like to bring that money back but give us a lower rate uh
you can say that all he wants but i don't think it's good you know everyone wants to have lower taxes and if your cooperation is saying oh we totally bring that money back it's like holding the money ransom you know like we'll bring these trillions back uh just give us a lower rate and i i feel like that's not going to go anywhere and i'm not quite sure why tim cook is lobbying for that much because honestly does he need that money back into the u.s or is that just trying to be like an olive branch you're like we totally bring that money back because i can imagine
the u.s lowering the rate and then apple going yeah we'll stick with zero zero point five percent thanks a lot about changing that law and everything but zero point zero zero five percent versus that like i don't know the details of why he would want to bring it back specifically um but as for like the the you know the shareholders or people getting angry at tim cook
You know, he does that all the time in terms of like telling the shareholder, if you don't, you know, we know that this is not the best way to make money.
But if you don't like it, like, you know, the soul, you know, sustainable energy or whatever, maybe human rights.
Many times he said to investors, if you're in it for the short term and you just want to do this thing, just get out of the stock.
There's plenty of other stocks you can buy.
Right.
So I think it's totally within reason for him to take a similar ethical stand on tax law here.
He just hasn't chosen to.
And I think there's two parts at one.
I don't think this is the same category as, you know, I don't think it really is a moral issue.
Maybe it's a mild ethical issue, but morally speaking, the environment and human rights are way bigger causes than arguing over
whether tax dollars go to the eu or to the u.s or whatever uh it's just it's not quite the same thing it's just shuffling paper around and i know there are consequences of all that and so on and so forth but i think it's hard to draw a really straight line between arguments between these giants about tax law and things like the environment which is like
not doesn't doesn't recognize borders and is shared by the entire planet and has irreparable effects um and then it just seems like him personally and apple as a corporation don't feel like they are on the wrong side of this if they did if they felt like they were on the wrong side of this and needed to change something they would change it and they would go to the shareholders and say if you don't like us doing this then fine but
You know, I think you don't get to be the CEO of one of the biggest companies in the world by doing things saying like, I know our tax rate is X, but I just don't feel it's effectively right for us to pay that low.
Should we should pay some extra taxes this year?
Like there's a limit to how far people's minds can bend to rather the other way.
I think your mind eventually bends to the idea that voluntarily paying more taxes than you need to is not a good business plan.
And so I think that's where they're at.
And maybe in his deathbed, Tim Cook will say, you know what, I should have brought that money back and just pay the taxes so that the bridge that collapsed with my loved one on it didn't collapse because America doesn't know how to fund infrastructure anymore.
And if only I had given...
20 trillion more dollars it would have helped but i don't know i i feel like it's you know he's a company man he's a good ceo and this does not rise to the level of human rights or the environment well then that's why like it it kind of rubbed me the wrong way like how much cook is kind of trying to bring the public to support him on this like he he's kind of bringing this fight into the public with with his statements but both the public doesn't care right both the ireland thing and the um and the corporate tax rate you know repatriation thing
And it just seems like this is one of those reminders that for all the good things they do and for all the good people there, Apple is still a giant corporation.
And the CEO of it is still the CEO of a giant corporation.
And one of his main jobs is trying to pay as little tax as possible and trying to do all sorts of tricks.
And it's a little bit weird.
It's only a little bit weird that Cook seems to not sense how bringing this to the public is probably not a good use of that political capital.
I don't think he's bringing it to the public to convince them over to Apple's side.
He's doing damage control.
If he doesn't say anything, what comes out of this is just the repeated idea that Apple cheats on its taxes and doesn't pay its fair share.
And that's what he's coming out to say.
We don't cheat.
We're not doing things against the law.
We pay our fair share.
That's always his message.
And if he wasn't being attacked, because if he said nothing and just said, well, whatever, the public doesn't care about this, eventually it would just be common knowledge that Apple cheats on its taxes and doesn't pay its fair share.
Right?
and that's what that's why he feels like he has to go to the public now i think in general the public doesn't care about that that much anyway but i still think if he didn't come out and argue strongly against it fast forward five years and you make a joke about apple not paying taxes and everyone go oh yeah apple those are the company that doesn't pay taxes where when in reality all corporations don't pay taxes because they all use these loopholes and but only apple would be getting the bad pr for it you know what i mean so i feel like that's why he is so uh vocal about it but
in the grand scheme of things, I don't think as a campaign to convince the world to call your congressman to label repatriate a trillion dollars.
Like that's, I don't think that's in anybody's head.
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So as we record, it is Friday, the 2nd of September on the 7th, which is this coming Wednesday.
Convenient for our recording next week, actually.
I didn't even think about that.
On the 7th, Apple will be releasing ostensibly the new version of the iPhone, which may or may not be called the iPhone 7.
It may or may not be announcing a new Apple Watch and may or may not be releasing new MacBook Pros.
Thoughts on what's happening here?
I think we can all agree that there will be a new iPhone 7.
Sorry, I shouldn't say that that will be the name, just that there will be a new phone.
It sounds to me like it's pretty much a given that it will not have a headphone jack.
I think I'm okay with that.
I'm not thrilled by it, but I'm not devastated by it either.
Well, this was the genius of Apple's PR campaign over basically the entire spring and summer of what seems, in retrospect, and even seemed a bit like at the time, what seemed like a very good controlled leak campaign to set expectations accordingly and get all the anger out slowly over the whole summer.
um so because like we started hearing pretty clear rumors about there being no headphone jack from pretty well-known sources like pretty good publications a long time ago so we've had the whole summer to get all mad about it and now we just kind of all accept it as okay well yeah this this false iPhone there's no headphone jack and like had we not known that ahead of time by so long and had so much time to get mad about it and then finally accept it
uh that that all that anger would have blown up like next week at the same time that apple's using a design for the third year in a row for the first time and by the way if i may say again not a particularly great design uh so like imagine the anger that would have played and like the negative press coverage that would have had in the product
that now probably won't happen as much.
I still think there will be some, but I think it won't be nearly as much as it would have been if we hadn't been able to stew about it from Bloomberg and rumor sites for the entire summer.
yeah that's they did the best they could with that but there's a limit because i think almost everybody who goes to buy this new iphone will not know that it has no iphone jack so even though we are and and the tech media which is really all apple could do who's interested in this story at all months before it comes out the tech media and us who read the tech media so that's all they can do right so we're kind of getting over it and learning to deal with it and had all the think pieces about it and so on and so forth but
We are a tiny, tiny sliver of the huge number of people who buy iPhones.
And pretty much, to a first approximation, every single person who goes in to buy the new iPhone in, you know, the first month or two is going to be like, wait, where's the headphone jack?
Until the story goes on, your local news and USA Today and all sort of mainstream media that people watch.
And eventually, the public will know.
what apple has spared is the incredible outrage that would have been if it was a surprise to us like marco said like if the tech press also was blindsided by it it would just be way way bigger but i still think there will be a fairly substantial like speaking of the tonight show monologue worthy gags about the new iphone not having a headphone port
among the regular people who don't follow exactly what the new iphone is going to be months in advance and they'll learn about it when the product is announced and when it's released like everybody else and you know and they'll get over it in their own time so i think apple did the best it could with the pr campaign but um we'll see if you know this is another if their timing is right on this or if the future you know
time is on their side or they're they're the way of the future as they have been so many other times i can tell you that the other day i tried to plug my headphones into the lighting port on my iphone 6 obviously i've been stewing in the idea that there won't be a headphone port for a long time but i felt i like i got so far as that i touched the two of them together that's how far i got didn't start pressing but i touched the two of them together and it's mostly because i've been thinking for you know six months now or whatever it's been
about what it might be like to have lightning head headphones and several months ago i think i sort of can't my my personal piece with this issue is that look all i ever connect to my iphone are the ear pods that came with it if it comes with ear pods that i can still plug into the phone which it will fine fine then then like how does this personally just me personally not saying this is a good idea for the product so on and so forth just for me personally um
I really don't think this change will affect my life, except if this means that the extra number of plugs and unplugs wear out my lighting port faster.
But other than that, I think my life won't change.
I'm also very interested in the, you know, rumors of the wireless, you know...
ear pod things and like i'll try them out i'll probably buy a pair of those and give apple some money um because i'm kind of fascinated by that idea but some yeah i don't know how much they're gonna cost it's gonna be 100 bucks i got some some person sent one to the show like someone who works for like this headphone company whose name i can't remember i think it was like 801 something anyway but they're not wireless they have a wire from one ear to the other
That's what most of them do, yeah.
And on that wire is the little clicker thing.
And I know they're not wired in the same way, but that wire going from one ear to the other, even though it gives me a place for the clicker, still feels weird.
It doesn't feel like they're wireless to me.
I know they are.
There's no connection to my jacket pocket and the thing, but it still feels strange to me.
So the rumors I see of Apple potentially having ones that literally don't have any wires on them,
i i might give that a try if it's an apple thing um but yeah i think i think we've covered the headphone jack and the iphone 7 as as has been the case with most iphones for the past many years we feel like we know every single thing about it we feel like we've seen pictures of the actual phone we know the only thing we never know is like all right a10 system on a chip
will be better how much better because that's the type of stuff that doesn't leak because no one's slicing the top off the chip and analyzing the die before the thing but well there there was that one leak geek bench thing that showed it being about 50 faster which i don't know if that was real but they have made jumps of that magnitude before uh so it is certainly plausible that it might be it might be 50 faster which should be cool
Yeah.
And we get those, you know, those type of rumors like, is it going to be way faster or a little bit faster?
And this one seems like another way faster one.
But we'll see.
But I think that is, you know, it's kind of boring for these Apple events, especially like the next year event, the 10th anniversary, super thin phone with like no home button and the touch ID and the screen and the edge to edge, like all those rumors that we're already getting.
It'll be kind of sad if we know everything about that one before it comes out, because I would like to be surprised again.
But this seems, alas, not to be possible when you sell so many hundreds of millions of these things.
It's impossible for the parts not to leak.
And for the September event, that's the headline attraction.
Every single rumor story has been saying, don't look for Max, don't bother.
It's not the type of event.
So I'm already prepared not to see anything about Max.
I'm fine with the Max coming out at a later date.
See that?
You can't let it go?
No, I mean, everyone is basically reporting as fact now, which sounds a lot like controlled leaks.
They're basically reporting as fact that there won't be Macs announced, that that'll come later, which, of course, Macs are always coming later.
Linux will be great next year.
So I'm not ready to let that go yet, if only because...
So we're pretty sure there's not going to be iPads at this event.
And the phone updates are going to be not that major.
Like, you know, not taking a lot of stage time.
So what the heck is going to fill the time in the event?
Like if this is going to be like their big fall event.
Yeah.
But it sounds like Apple Watch 2 is also pretty minor.
yeah but two minor things you know first of all you know how long they can go on about any phone they'll be showing you a million pictures from the dual camera they'll be showing you all the graphs and they'll probably show ios 10 features again and just like it will take a while and then the watch this is the the first and only significant update to the watch besides the new colors and new bands they're going to spend a long time on that especially if it's got we have these uh these tips from the not from the tipsters the non-tipster tips so who knows what the provenance is that could have been
could be even more fabricated than stories about usb hubs um sick burn yeah this is the watch too gps which would be a big deal if it was true because all we've been hearing from from uh random uh rumors over the past year or so is that apple has learned that pretty much the most important function of the apple watch for most customers is fitness related and people are still wearing fitbits and stuff so you know if you have gps on the watch itself that really changes the story and
in terms of applications to keep track of your exercise and do running if you want to do it without your phone, if that's the thing that people want to do.
Improve waterproofing, which is hard to imagine because Craig Hockenberry has taken something like 150 swims in the ocean with his watch and it's still going strong.
So I think the waterproofing is already pretty good.
um the apple watch one will stick around at a lower price which is totally a tim cook thing to do but on the other hand sounds crazy to me but who knows please let the cpu die as fast as possible yeah yeah uh more health sensors did not make it again this is the persistent rumor when the first watch came out everyone's like oh apple wanted to do like a blood oxygenation but they couldn't because of fda blah blah blah
uh and second watch same set of rumors oh apple wanted to do more health stuff but they couldn't because there's lots of regulation so they you just run that rumor forever because if there's never any new health features like yeah they just missed it apple wanted to do it but couldn't it's not you know show me the features or don't um and potential for an improved model with more health sensors in six months but it could be pushed until christmas 2017 so yeah you're right like the apple watch two rumors if even if you believe every single one of these tips
gps i think that's that's pretty big if they can make it thinner but i doubt they will that's kind of big um but i fully believe that apple can make a full presentation out of a new line of phones and new line of watches and not mention anything about the mac
Yeah.
And let's not forget that we also have watchOS 3, which I know was covered at WWDC, but it's a big change.
And especially if the watch sales have been kind of meh, which is what everyone seems to think, whether or not that's true, who knows, then they're going to want to really do a pretty significant dog and pony show about watchOS 3.
There could be a video game demo or two on iOS 10 with new hardware.
I mean, what you're saying, Marco, is how could ATP have an episode of more than 20 minutes when there's nothing going on in the middle of the summer?
Well, we always find a way, and Apple can too.
Going back a step, though, a couple things.
One, I would love for my Apple Watch to be thinner.
This is the only Apple device that I can think of that I really, really, really want to be thinner, very much so.
And I think that there's plenty of room to give, even while keeping the same band compatibility, which I think they will, and I think that's important.
I think there's plenty of room for them to give on the thickness of
And if the battery life stays roughly the same, and to be honest, if the performance only gets a little bit faster, I'm okay with that, but I would love for this thing to be thinner.
I have another question I want to ask you guys, but Marco, it sounds like you have some thoughts on this.
I'm laughing every time I see... The recent rumor is that the battery for the watch got like 30% bigger, and they achieved this in roughly the same size casing by making some of the screen components smaller.
And I think
it's like this is the one apple product that doesn't really need more battery life like the 42 millimeter getting 30 getting a 30 bigger battery life it's like it's like it's it already has an amazing battery well they said that the battery got 30 bigger but if you have gps on it doesn't mean it gets any better battery life
Well, that's true.
Although, to be fair, and I think this was on Connected where they were talking about what that is likely to be, or maybe it was Upgrade, where basically, assuming this thing gets GPS, it's probably going to be a lot like the workout mode or something where you can turn it on, you have to explicitly turn it on when you want it, and it's probably not going to be on the vast majority of the time.
You're probably going to have to really explicitly call it out and say, all right, turn on GPS now.
but the apps i think the apps will be able to control like for you go for your hour long run you start your workout and your app gets to run the whole time because they have that new feature in watch os 3 where you get to run during the whole workout and that will slaughter your battery if you run for an hour or two if they don't give you a 30 bigger battery so i feel like it'll probably be a wash
Yeah, you're probably right.
Although it'll be a massive boon for people who don't use GPS.
So there you go.
Yeah.
Well, this is why, like, I really, I would love it if Apple basically split the sport features off into the sport model and also had, like, maybe take the steel model and make it, like, a little bit, like, dressier one, like the office one, you know?
Like, that's the one you wear to work or, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
And if you don't need some of the more advanced fitness features, like some of the more advanced sensors or GPS, maybe you can get a thinner steel watch for a couple hundred dollars more that looks a little bit nicer.
And then the sport model, which is most of the ones they're selling anyway, can still get all this big bulky stuff and some of the more fitness stuff because that's what most of its buyers actually want.
So you want a day watch and a night watch.
Got it.
To go back to the phone, if they go with killing the headphone jack, which it seems pretty much a given, I have seen a rumor that answers this question, but I'm curious what you guys think.
And let's start with John.
Do you think that they will include some sort of lightning to what is the acronym for the headphone port?
TRRS.
Thank you.
A Lightning to TRS adapter, will that be in the box, yes or no, John Syracuse?
If I had to put money on it, I would say no, just because I feel like they're going to include earpods with a Lightning connector on the end in the box, because they've been so stingy with the accessories lately.
The only thing that's making me question it a little bit is...
how they would sell the presumed passive no chips required connector for the adapter because apple doesn't like to sell things for less than like 20 and can they sell that adapter for 10 or 20 it's so tiny the box it would be like the size of the old ipod shuffle trident stick of gum box maybe even smaller like i don't
i don't know how they sell this in a way like even just thinking of of like shrinkage as they call in the industry or theft like how can you even have these like will they have a tic-tac dispenser that just dumps these things out like that's the only thing that's making it's like they don't sell the pin the the sim card removal tool right they don't sell that separately or they also don't give it to you in the box a lot of times with the phone but that's the type of thing like it's so freaking small and so cheap
How can you sell it separately?
And yet they must sell it separately if they don't include it in the box.
But I still think that the smart money is on no adapter in the box, but it's borderline.
The chat room is saying exactly what I was going to say to you, which is they sold the MagSafe 1 to 2 adapter, which was $10.
Right.
Right, and that was super weird, right?
That was super weird and really small and not a normal thing that they do.
And also, way fewer people need MagSafe 1 to 2 than could potentially be in the market for this adapter.
Now, obviously, every third party in the world will also sell this adapter, but they're not Apple.
It's weird for Apple to be selling stuff like that.
But anyway, yeah, just lightning ear pods in the box.
Also, as tips are said in the chat, even if they include it in the box, they still have to sell it separately because people are going to need more than one.
Oh, that's an interesting point.
I know.
I know.
It's just a weird product for Apple to sell.
I guess if they sell it for $30, it's not weird anymore, but then there'll be some screaming.
I mean, you know I'm as much of a skeptic and cynic about the Tim Cook era of Apple being super profitable and driving up attachment sales and everything.
However, even I don't think it's going to be $30.
I think it's going to be either $10 or $20.
I would agree with that.
But Marco, do you think it will be in the box?
Yes or no?
No.
And I think Gruber mentioned this at one point.
Basically, if they put it in the box, that's kind of an admission that it's necessary.
And I don't see them doing that.
I see them saying, this is the future.
Up until today, I would have said no freaking way that that adapter will be in the box.
However, there was a post that I saw earlier today.
I'm never going to be able to find the link, and I'm sorry.
But there was a post...
with a picture of like um it included many different things but one of the things it included was a list of the things in the iphone 7 box i believe it was called iphone 7 and this was like a korean model gosh only knows if it was legit or not but it said in there uh lightning powered ear pods that wasn't the exact phrasing but something like that and a lightning to headphone jack adapter
in the box which i would be very surprised if that's the case i think the same that that it is a position of strength to or a or a a a strong move not to include it and it is an admission of weakness if they do include it uh i think it's more customer friendly to include it but that's not generally apple style when it comes to these sorts of things so i'll be surprised if it's in there but the the smoke is saying that it will be
Well, there is more parallels to Thunderbolt display than you think, because the Thunderbolt display thing was, all right, so we're selling this thing, and all of a sudden we sell a line of computers that don't work with the little MagSafe thing that's dangling off of it, right?
So we have one product, and that product is fine as it is, but we've introduced another product here.
It doesn't match up with the rest of our product line.
So now we have to pick one of these products to ship with a thing that says, okay, when you buy this one,
you can't it would be weird to buy a thunderbolt display and not to be able to use it with the brand new laptop that you just bought alongside because we're selling them simultaneously or you know no matter what order you did it and say you buy a laptop then you know six months later because the thunderbolt display has been out for like 800 years before they canceled it six months later you buy a thunderbolt display you'd be surprised to say wait i bought this laptop not that long ago and now i'm buying a brand new monitor doesn't work with it um so apple wants its products to work together well
Apple owns Beats.
Say you buy Beats headphones, and then a couple months later, the new iPhone comes out.
It feels kind of weird that you just bought this product in an Apple store from basically Apple that you can't use with your just-purchased iPhone.
You just asked me what you thought they would do.
I think they should include the adapter in the box, especially if it's passive.
And that's why I feel like it's borderline, where it's not the Apple thing to do, but...
if they were it's kind of like the bumper case like they didn't include the bumper case with the iphones but eventually steve jobs like fine you want bumpers free bumpers for everybody like it's a nice way to make a problem go away to have like to have a ready answer when they say but you took away the headphone port it's like adapter comes in the box um i would still bet against it but it's a lot closer than than i would have thought you know having chewed on this for the past several months i would not bet super heavily on it but that's still my bet
oh no i i agree that they should put it in the box for customer sat reasons they really should and that would help a lot like that would change the story from you are making us buy new crap to most people just saying oh now we have to use this other thing that's in the box which it's still a crap move i think overall to remove this jack for apparently no need in this in this generation but
uh but at least that would that would really change like it would make it so that when you get these things no matter what kind of headphones you use with your phone you don't have to buy anything extra just to use your old headphones with your new iphone and that that is a big satisfaction win at the purchase point like it makes it feel like less of less of like a quote money grab this phrase i hate that everyone loves so much like if they make you spend an extra 20 bucks to adapt your existing headphones to it people are gonna get mad
And they're not going to get mad that it's 20 bucks.
They're going to get mad that it's like an add-on at all.
Yeah, they're confused.
The money grab is the storage.
That's the money grab.
There is a money grab here, but it's not the headphones.
Yeah, and all the rumors, finally, they're saying now, now that even 32 is becoming too small, Apple is finally upgrading from 16 to 32 for the baseline storage.
Apple's like, we could move to 32, but is 32 painfully small for people?
Let's wait another year.
And then finally, I say, we can move to 32.
Is 32 painfully small?
It's actually painfully small for a lot of customers.
Good, let's move to it.
Now it's time.
Yeah, we actually, a couple of years, yeah, about a year ago or so, a year and a half, we bought my mother-in-law an iPad Air or Air 2.
It was her first iPad.
And we weren't sure if she was going to use it that much.
So we only got the base 32 model.
They were preparing for a trip and just wanted to put videos on.
And here I am juggling, like, all right, we've got to download this video for the plane.
Now we've got to go delete this video and try to figure out how to download this video in SD instead of HD, which is not easy.
And it's like all this juggling.
Because, yeah, 32, it turns out, 32 kind of isn't big enough anymore either.
So it is definitely time for them to move to 32.
And the thing is with the storage, I mean, I'm glad that they're moving up from 16 because it is 16 again.
Come on, it's getting ridiculous.
But, you know, like Google Photos just had that ad, I think was a TV ad or an online ad.
But anyways, an ad, you know, ridiculing Apple for like for people who basically own iPhones.
And take a lot of pictures, and eventually you can't take any more pictures because it says your storage is full.
Yep.
And this is a thing that happens because people take lots of pictures with their phones, and people don't delete their pictures when they're done with them because they, you know, like, why would I delete them?
I want to keep my photos.
And Apple has iCloud Photo Library that's supposed to take care of this for you.
In practice, as I've seen in person for myself many, many times, the sort of, like, optimized storage for you automatically does not do it when you want to.
You fill it up, and you're like, okay...
optimize storage now like what signal do you need from me or from the operating system i am full i can't fit any my thing was like i was trying to import photos into into the like i'm in the photos application i mean maybe photos isn't the thing that optimizes storage maybe it's the background ubiquity demon or whatever you know who knows but i'm trying to import photos knows i'm trying to import photos tells me there's not enough room i'm like
yeah, but I have the optimized storage thing checked off.
Just purge a bunch of old pictures.
Like, do it now.
And there's no button that says, please free up my disk space by purging pictures because that's not the Apple way.
And so I'm just stuck there staring at it going, well, you won't let me import off this SD card.
I have optimized storage checked.
Do I just like...
wait 24 hours to see if you'll you know do i import just enough photos to push the disk past its storage limit like in practice it doesn't work the way it's supposed to work but apple really believes their tech lineup their bullet points they're like oh well we have app thinning and we have you know incremental downloads of content and we have uh optimizing storage for our photos library and for our movies and iCloud storage and backup so 16 is actually not that bad do you remember that story for the past few years i think phil schiller said it in person one of the things like
16 doesn't seem like a lot but we have all these amazing technologies for compression and putting the files from your desktop and mac os sierra up to like yeah you've got all that stuff but a you're fighting it back against the tide like people use more storage as time goes on period that's just the way it works and b that crap doesn't work like it doesn't work when you need it most when you run out of space there is no recourse there's no button to push and doesn't magically automatically manage it what it does to give you is the dialogue that says you're out of space and people don't know how to deal with that and then you get the
your uh backup onto iCloud as you increase the storage so Apple in theory has tech surrounding this that that mitigates it somewhat but in practice that Google ad was you know right on the money like this is a real experience that people had and what Google is promising I don't know if they're delivering because I don't use Google Photos for anything other than backup what Google is promising is hey we have essentially exactly the same system but ours actually works and we won't give you the ad of space because I imagine Google on the fly when you're taking a picture of
if it doesn't have enough room to store it it immediately deletes one photo and stores it like it does it does a better job of what apple says it's going to do so yeah apple apple's cloud and storage situation remains fraught uh but if they're finally ready to move it to 32 uh that's good um if they if they're getting rid of 64 and it's going to be 32 128 256
actually i think that's actually not that bad because i feel like 64 should be the minimum anyway and i like the fact that you have to jump from 32 to 128 but it's going to make apple's uh storage pricing tiering look really weird like 32 to 128 is an extra 100 well but it already did yeah i know what i was like anyway you just try to think about that's that's where the magic money is made um but we'll see what the tiers are
Also, some real-time follow-up.
I forgot that my iPad is also 32 gigs.
When I ordered my 9.7 iPad Pro in May, I wasn't sure if I would take to the iPad again because I'd been kind of an iPad skeptic for so long.
So I also just got 32.
And that was a big problem when I tried a load of videos on it for the plane ride home from WBDC, and there was basically no space to do anything useful.
I think mine might be as well.
I don't have it next to me.
Additional real-time follow-up, Panda19 in the chat was able to find the link I was thinking of.
It was on MacRumors.
Looking at this again, I mean, it's super sketchy, but it reads, includes iPhone 7 Plus, EarPods with lightning connector, lightning to headphone jack adapter, lightning to USB cable, and USB power adapter.
So if it's real, we'll see.
And by the way, speaking of announcements, the alternate show idea I have, because very frequently, I think on the show, we have a pretty bad track record of predicting what's going to be announced.
But the alternate theory of what could play out in the show is a new iPhone, nothing about Apple Watch and the new laptops, even though they're not shipping until much later.
that is also a show that i could totally envision because it i think that fits into the thing of like hey we spent all this time talking about apple watch 2 and apple didn't say a single word about it i don't think it's likely but that's the feeling you know usually after we do one of these shows then i watch the actual announcement like that's nothing like what we talked about we totally got this wrong um pretty sure there'll be a new iphone though well the question is like are they going to have multiple events this fall or not and i think so far most of the rumblings point to no it's a single event again so if there's only one public event the
keep in mind this is like their whole like holiday shopping lineup that they're debuting here too so i think the watch has has it has to be a part of it like even if all they have to announce is a relatively minor boost of like you know what if if watch two isn't even called watch two or if it's you know if it if it's kind of downplayed it's like oh now it's the new apple watch yeah the new apple watch has gps at the you know 499 price point and then the cheaper ones don't have it you know however they do it
the watch is going to be there because they're going to have maybe new colors they're going to definitely have new bands you know because it's like bands are seasonal it's fashion and lots of wonderful attachment profit sales there so like yeah there's going to be new bands for the fall and the winter they're going to debut all those at this event so
the only reason they wouldn't is if they're doing another event later in the fall like right before big chopping season really starts but i think they're probably not and if they're not this event's going to be full of stuff to buy for the holiday season and if max don't fit that's really sad to me uh but i could see there's no chance the watch isn't being mentioned and there's no chance we aren't getting new bands
the thing i the reason i mentioned like not showing the watch events and showing the laptops or just showing laptops at all even though they're totally not ready or whatever is just because the whole the whole oled strip thing on the keyboard it just seems like the type of feature that apple would like to announce in a keynote i know jason snell on six colors said you know they would just do individual press briefings that's a possibility which they've done many times before and that's true but i feel like
They've never done the sort of private embargoed individual press briefings for a feature that so demands a demo and video, like a presentation directly from Apple to the public about this feature.
Because normally they would have those briefings about, you know, a new version of the OS that's been seen several times before, but here's the official release or, you know, the first look at a new OS or new laptops that are better in a couple of ways.
But I just feel like Apple...
should be the one to present whatever this weird new strip thing is.
Because it is weird, even though PC makers are already doing it and everything.
It's something I feel like they need to explain to the public in some way.
And even if it's not going to ship until November, it would be great if they put maybe just a 15-inch Pro.
Just pick one model to explain this whole strip thing and then dole out the other ones.
And it would also save them from the indignity of...
pretty much missing another generation like you know the the kb or cabbie like i don't know how to pronounce it the the one that comes after sky lake has been announced and the laptop chips are coming out and everything so if apple waits much longer by the time they get their their you know brand new sky lake macbook pros out uh the next one will already be shipping in pcs and that's that's not not a great look after all the complaints about them being behind like hey we finally did it we updated the macbook pros and
i know kb lake isn't that big of a deal or maybe and people are saying like oh the reason they're waiting so long is because they're gonna have kb like guys don't hold your breath yeah yeah because kb like you know like sky lake was announced a long time ago too and we don't have that yet you know like the intel's announcement this is the same process so there's you know but
but it's there's a there's a chance if they you know wait a really long time for them to ship but katie like all it gives you is essentially better hardware decoding of video which is great but i don't know how much of that apple uses and a clock speed boost because they have uh the process allows them to crank it up a little bit their new fin fed process or whatever uh which is all great and good and apple should totally use it as soon as they possibly can but at this point i would say
Even if you're going to be a little embarrassed, just ship what you've got.
Ship the freaking Skylake things.
Just do it.
And then upgrade them to KB Lake as soon as you can.
Yeah, because whatever Apple feels about whatever's holding this back, the status quo has to be worse of selling these ancient MacBook Pros as new to anybody who needs one right now.
That's got to be worse than whatever's holding this back.
But anyway, who knows?
We'll find out.
One thing I actually do want to mention before we leave the Mac topic here is
The rumor has come out in the last couple days that in addition to the MacBook Pros, there's also a MacBook Air update to USB-C.
And I wanted to tie this into something else.
There was maybe a few months back, I forget when or who...
I think it might have been Ming-Chi Kuo who said one rumor report from somebody who's actually fairly well-sourced that kind of got blown over that basically said that we're going to see new MacBook Pros and everything.
And they also said there's going to be a new 13-inch MacBook One.
And at the time, we were like, what?
That doesn't make sense.
And now there's a rumor that there's going to be a new MacBook Air update to USB-C.
So I think this is the same computer they're talking about.
And we've heard nothing about this from the tipster.
So who knows whether there's anything behind this.
But I think this is two rumors about the same thing.
That it basically is an update to the MacBook Air.
to the 13-inch MacBook Air.
Maybe the 11 isn't even included.
Maybe it's only an update to the 13-inch MacBook Air.
And maybe it goes Retina.
Because Apple obviously tried with the MacBook One, and to a large degree succeeded, but they tried to replace the MacBook Air line with something even more extreme, even thinner, even lighter, even more limited.
But it turns out the MacBook Air is really great in a lot of ways that the MacBook One can't or won't be because it's too limited to, you know, in size or thermals or whatever else.
It can't achieve the same thing as the MacBook Air.
So what if Apple kind of was pressured by really customer reaction to the MacBook One?
And what if they are going to continue kind of a MacBook Air?
Maybe even if just called a MacBook and it happens to be a 13 inch one.
Yeah.
That's it.
It's not going to be an error in anything.
It's just going to be a 13-inch MacBook 1, and when it's 13-inch, suddenly we have more room for USB ports.
Right.
Yeah, so maybe the new 13-inch MacBook 1, quote, which is really an error, maybe that uses the MacBook Air internal platform, those wonderful 15-watt CPUs that are an amazing balance of battery life and performance in Intel's lineup that right now, with what we know today so far, if the MacBook Air goes away,
There's nowhere for those CPUs to be used in the lineup.
And that would be such a waste because they're so good.
They're so compelling.
It's such a great balance of what most people need out of performance and battery life.
To have that be available in a 13-inch enclosure that is MacBook Air-like and MacBook-like, you know, somewhere in the middle there.
And to have those nice CPUs, it would have to have a fan, of course, because those are a lot hotter CPUs, but that's okay for a lot of people.
Everyone seems to get along with it just fine with every other laptop.
That would be, I think, an amazing product to basically be a new 13-inch Retina Air.
I've been assuming this whole time that rather than continue the MacBook Air line in a new way, that they were going to just shrink the MacBook Pro line enough so that the 13-inch MacBook Pro would get small enough to replace the 13-inch Air.
But if they really wanted to keep the 13-inch Air shape and slot in the lineup going, they really could do a better job of it keeping it going with the same chipset it's using now, with that line of processors and internals and general shape and size, rather than trying to make the Pro smaller with the Pro's hotter CPUs, more ports, more capabilities, etc.
So if this is true, that there's going to be a MacBook Air update, and if that old rumor of the 13-inch MacBook is actually tied in and it's actually the same thing,
This could be an amazing computer that comes out of nowhere.
Well, I think you're kind of forgetting the Tim Cook factor, which is the only reason I'm still entertaining the ideas of the silly MacBook Air continuation.
I mean, like this is the Apple that kept the iPad 2 around for a long time.
This is the Apple that is rumored to keep the Apple Watch 1 around.
Like, what kind of company would continue selling a non-retina MacBook Air with USB-C upgrade?
Because you could make that machine.
Put, you know, like you said, put 15-watt CPU in there with USB-C supporting chipset.
Keep the same old crappy non-retina screen and just keep selling it.
What kind of monster would do that?
Tim Cook's Apple.
I'm not saying it's likely.
It seems really, but I can't totally discount it because that's the thing.
Like, hey, if people want to keep... It's like taking it farther away from the whole speeds and feeds, I think, because there's plenty of product categories where...
Like, you have a popular model and you just keep selling it.
I think I just retweeted today.
Someone posted a link to a teardown of, you know, the shaver at a barbershop that they shave, like, the back of your neck with, the little wristband, you know.
They shaved my whole head with that, John.
Yeah, well, there you go.
One of those that's 50 years old and then the same device purchased in 2016.
So a 50-year gap.
And they pull them apart to see whether they're different on the inside because we've all seen that Shaber our entire lives, right?
It's a 50-year-old product.
And if you look at a modern one, they don't look that much different.
And guess what?
On the inside, they're also not that different.
Lots of industries sell a product that becomes popular.
And like, if people keep buying it, let's keep selling it.
What don't if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Right.
And you're like, yeah, but computers, you kind of have to update those.
Right.
And.
today's apple is like do you maybe we can keep selling a non-retina screen for a really really long people keep buying it like people love that macbook air and yeah they would like the computer that marco described even better but you know how cheap we can make that air now we paid for the tooling and those non-retina screens are dirt cheap and
like you know how long can we sell the ipad to well education blah blah well you know suckers keep buying this thing why are we bending over backwards to make new models you know so i don't like that idea i don't think that's a good fit for technology but apple in recent years has really been stretching the bounds of what we previously considered a reasonable thing for a technology company to do and their argument would be like
Look, if we keep selling them, like, you think it's bad.
Oh, boo-hoo.
Does your opinion matter?
Customers are buying them, right?
And then our, you know, counter is obviously like, your long-term customer said it's stupid.
You're being penny-wise, pound-foolish, blah, blah.
We can all have that debate.
But that's the only reason I'm not 100% discounting the idea of an actual product labeled MacBook Air with a non-retina screen and a USB-C port on the side, which would just be an abomination that no one wants to see lurch out onto the stage in any sort of presentation.
But...
I live in fear of it.
Well, that's all it is.
There's no way we mentioned the event.
It would just kind of happen, and they would hope nobody noticed on the website.
People would notice.
Like, what?
Non-retina?
What?
The more I think about this, the more I think, well, obviously we know that there's a September 7th event, but what I think about that is it will be an iPhone, which everyone pretty much knows.
I think there will be Apple Watch 2, and I think that'll be the whole event.
I think there will be a brief event after this that will include a possibly entirely refreshed line of MacBooks and maybe even desktop Macs.
I'm looking at you, Mini and Pro.
God help us.
I hope not the Pro.
Yeah, right.
And also the new monitor that...
that it seems is probably coming.
I think we'll be at that second event.
What I'm not sure of is if the iPad will get any updates.
I don't think so.
And even if it does, where would that fall?
You know, do they put that in next week's event because it's iOS?
Do they put it in the Phantom later on event because it's a computer replacement?
I'm not really sure.
But yeah,
I would guess iPhone and watch next week, which is not a very controversial guess, but I do think there will be an event that is after that, that has many different kinds of Macs and a new display and whatever else they might want to release before the end of the year.
such an optimist i would i would love for that to be true and like i said i really do think that that little touch screen above the keyboard is something apple should present to the public itself and not just do press briefings um but the fantasy event that casey has outlined where it's like there'll be a whole second event they'll be update the mac mini and the pro oh please
I can't I can't bring myself to believe that anymore.
I mean, I still believe that both those lines will be updated at some point in the future.
And I really do believe that new laptops will be announced this year.
But the idea of like, hey, like we're revamping the whole Mac line.
And even that obscure computer that we never update gets an update.
And even the Mac Pro, like that's just too much.
I can't I can't fit that in my brain.
To be clear, the Mac Mini, Mac Pro, those are me reaching.
I'm not too confident about that.
But I think the laptop refresh is big enough to them that it'll get its own event.
And I think they feel like they have too much to talk about between iOS 10, iPhone 7, or whatever it's called, backpedaling, not really backpedaling, but justifying the headphone jack.
and watch os3 and probably watch 2 i think that's more than enough for a two-hour event next week and thus i think that i hope and think that there will be enough laptop news to justify a brief event subsequent to next week and my hope and my reach is that maybe it'll be more than just laptops
Hmm.
I hope some part of that is right.
Yeah.
I'm going to feel like a fool when I'm completely wrong.
But you know what?
There's no fun in betting the obvious.
The worst thing about the Max is that my brain has already moved on to thinking about what the KB Lake ones will be like.
Like, you know, the other ones aren't even.
It's just like I've already moved on.
uh because you know as the point in the chat room a lot of the stuff they have is like tool fixed function units for decoding new codecs for the what is it he vc the 265 one yes like better hardware support for the higher the higher performance profiles of that and like
a bunch of drm crap of course so that you can basically like all the streaming services that want to send 4k they demand new drm crap so that you can you know the so that your pc or your mac is allowed to show netflix 4k content they do the the happy handshake and you know support hdmi 2.0 and hdcp 2.2 and all like i
I hate all that stuff.
That'll fix piracy.
Yes, it's so dumb.
I always think, where is the Blu-ray limit?
Because Apple didn't even include Blu-ray because it was too much of a pain in the ass.
At a certain point, all this DRM stuff is going to be like, you know what?
You can't watch Netflix on your computer anymore because it's too much of a pain in the ass.
Netflix is a bag of hurt.
Watch on your damn TV.
Let the TV manufacturers deal with all this stuff.
stuff but so far apple still seems on board with it certainly intel is and these kaby like ones are the super low power ones they're not the ones that are ever going to go into desktop i don't think any of the ones with the good gpus that apple wants the iris pro things are out so it's not as if we're expecting these this year um but you know as we said in past shows what you can do apple to show that you're dedicated to the mac line is when these kaby like things ship in volume upgrade your computers to use them next year how about that
Thanks a lot to our three sponsors this week, Casper, Contentful, and Eero.
And we will see you next week.
John didn't do any research.
Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental.
It was accidental.
And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A, Syracuse.
It's accidental.
Accidental.
They didn't mean to.
Accidental.
Accidental.
In any case, I switched caselist.com to Hover.
I saw you're tweeting about it.
Did you use the Valley Transfer Service?
I did.
Nice.
Yeah.
So that was the thing.
i'm always weird about giving them my password i was just doing myself you can also just like just change your password then give i know i know the procedure i just it just feels weird like change it to test test and give it like i know the drill but it just seems weird to me i just like you know what i'll just do it myself and i've come close so many times i'm like this sucks so bad and they're like no let me just do it it's eventually you get through and you you find the secret place in whatever crabby register you're using where they let you unlock it and transfer and
I think I have almost everything over to hover now.
Every time they expire, I bring them over.
I'd never transferred a domain before.
Do you remember way, way back in the day, it was popular to run servers out of your house, but you were on dial-up or maybe you had an IP that changed regularly on a cable modem.
DynDNS.
Yep.
I was still using them up until two weeks ago.
I'm still using no IP, which is the same service as DynDNS.
So I was using dine, which I always thought red is din, but you are right, Marco.
I'm almost positive it's dine.
You get dine right, but you still call it mauve, huh?
Yeah, it's mauve.
Dine is the beginning of dynamic.
So move is the beginning of movie.
And it's a mauve-y file.
Let's go to the mauve-ies.
Let's go out to the mauve-ies.
I'm giving you an air high five, John Syracuse.
There you go.