The Pit Of Irrelevance
Casey:
There's a review that keeps happening.
Casey:
I think the person like updates it in some way or I don't know what they do, but they ask the title is something along the lines of non Cassie C A S S E Y download option.
Casey:
One star.
Casey:
I don't have it in front of you, but it's like one star.
Casey:
And it basically says, I can't handle Casey and I need to fast forward every time he talks.
Marco:
Well, we already do offer a non-CASI download option.
Casey:
It's the non-CASI download option that's not coming.
Marco:
Feature already implemented.
Casey:
I believe it was last episode we talked about the time capsule and how that is or is not an acceptable way of backing things up.
Casey:
And John lamented how network-based time machine backups are really crummy and the time capsule is a piece of junk and blah, blah, blah.
Casey:
And somebody whose name I need to rediscover... Hold on, let me fill this dead air by mumbling.
Casey:
Crud, I'll have to come back to it.
Marco:
Nuclear Zenfire?
Casey:
It was whatever's in the follow-up, yeah.
Casey:
Somebody posted a blog post, and the title is Time Capsule Backup vs. Syracusa.
Casey:
So immediately I was intrigued.
Casey:
So a quick...
Casey:
Uh, subsection of that post several weeks slash months ago, my internal SSD suddenly died completely.
Casey:
I hadn't made a clone backup or manually offloaded the data since the morning I'd been working all day and had many irretrievable projects that were lost except for the time capsule backup from 30 minutes before.
Casey:
I sent the SSD in warranty, and when it got back a week later, I booted up the new drive with it connected to the time capsule.
Casey:
It asked if I wanted to restore from the time capsule, and I said yes and went to bed.
Casey:
When I woke up in the morning, my baby was back.
Casey:
The beauty of the time capsule is its fire and forget usability.
Casey:
That earns some loyalty.
Casey:
And I'm quoting, and Casey was right.
Casey:
My work here is done.
Casey:
I've just quit the podcast.
Casey:
And I would drop this mic if it wasn't so darn expensive.
John:
And chained to your desk.
Casey:
And on amount.
Casey:
And on amount.
John:
Yeah, the time machine has been around for a long time.
John:
Like that product has been around for a long time.
John:
And in the beginning, it got a bad reputation because network time machine backups were terrible, mostly for software reasons.
John:
So right away, out of the gate, it was like, don't buy a time capsule because it doesn't work.
John:
And how much of that was the time capsule's fault and how much of that was the network protocol they were using for a time machine?
John:
We don't know, but that gave it a bad rep.
John:
But even after they fixed the protocol, I've heard from many, many, many people over the many years the time capsule has been out.
John:
And the story has not been good.
John:
So I'm sure this person had a good experience and it worked fine.
John:
It's not like it doesn't work at all.
John:
I mean, they keep selling them, right?
John:
But in the grand scheme of things and all the feedback I've received over the many, many years, it's decidedly negative for this product for both hardware and software reasons.
John:
And it's better now than it was, but I would still not recommend anybody buy one.
Casey:
And that was Nuclear Zen Fire on Twitter, like Marco said, whose first name is Michael, and that's all we know.
Casey:
So thank you, Michael, for sending that in and for once in my life saying that I was right and John was wrong.
Casey:
That's very exciting.
Casey:
He was wrong about it, though, so... Oh, you John Syracuse.
Casey:
All right, so how do we want to tackle the... Well, is there any other follow-up?
Casey:
I'm sorry.
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
Has anything really happened this week, like news-wise, that's really... I mean, Ballmer's fired, kind of.
Marco:
Someone's not looking at the file.
Marco:
Oh.
Marco:
We have lots of things in there.
Casey:
This is going to be a long one, so buckle up, kids.
Marco:
Let's start with Balmer, because that'll be pretty quick, I think.
Marco:
I think...
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
We've joked a lot about how Ballmer has been performing pretty badly in a number of ways for years.
Marco:
But in fact, Ben Thompson, the guy who writes Stratechery, I'll link to this in the show notes, he's a pretty awesome writer and thinker these days, and he actually spent some time at Microsoft, so he's kind of familiar with how it works, and he made a really good counterpoint to this, which is basically that
Marco:
Steve Ballmer actually did a very good job with what he was kind of hired to do, which is take the ship that Bill Gates kind of built when he was at the head and just keep it going.
John:
Why was he hired to do that?
John:
Who decides that that's what he was hired to do?
Marco:
Well, we can argue about that.
Marco:
But he did a part of his job extremely well, which is he kept Microsoft going.
Marco:
He made them more profitable.
Marco:
He made them get more success in various business roles and enterprise roles, which is a massive part of their business.
Marco:
So he did a lot of that well.
Marco:
But what he failed to do was push into any new markets and recognize new markets that he had to push into.
Marco:
And almost all of his new initiatives that he tried to do over the years that were not related to the business and profits side, almost everything he tried to do on the product side was mostly a failure.
Marco:
And...
Marco:
But it's kind of hard to say... The board let him keep his job all these years because he was doing, I guess, well enough on the business and profit side of things.
Marco:
So it's not like... He wasn't necessarily a complete buffoon all this time.
Marco:
I would say the board is more to blame for keeping him in that long when it was obvious that a lot of major product direction changes were necessary.
John:
I can't believe you're defending Ballmer.
John:
Any defensive Ballmer has to come down to defending short-term thinking over the long term.
John:
It's like, yeah, in the long term, he screwed the company, but day by day, he wasn't that bad.
John:
And they say, well, it's really the board's fault for not firing him.
John:
Yeah, the board does share some of this plan.
John:
But bottom line is, if we look back on Steve Ballmer's tenure as Microsoft CEO, it's going to be he was the guy in charge when Microsoft lost it.
John:
Like they were, they were the big dog.
John:
They became not the big dog.
John:
He oversaw that.
John:
And during the whole time, it's not like he, like you said, it's not like he was a total buffoon.
John:
It's not like he didn't see some of these things, but as you said, every, every time something was coming, there was a threat and he tried to counter it with his company and his products.
John:
He screwed up.
John:
He failed.
John:
Like the only good thing that could be attributed to his watch is the Xbox.
John:
And even that is not, I mean, I, you know, that you have to say like, look, they entered a new product area.
John:
They were successful.
John:
Uh,
John:
maybe not totally financially successful but they are now a player you know a major player in the market and that's saying something right but every other initiative like they just they just missed everything like so in the micro level saying well at least he was good at tuning their current businesses and he kept the money going and he grew the company he did all this yeah but that doesn't matter like you know the
John:
What matters is, like, what is your legacy?
John:
What have you done?
John:
You took control of a company that was on top of the world, and you leave a company that's practically irrelevant.
John:
And that's how you have to measure, you know, how good a job did you do.
Casey:
No, it's not.
Casey:
Not if you're a shareholder.
Casey:
All you need to measure is are you getting more money or not.
John:
But look at their stock price over his tenure, too.
John:
It is not a great-looking, you know—
John:
Tim Cook has only been around a little while.
John:
Look at the graph of when Tim Cook took over, what was the stock price and what is it now?
John:
That's after Apple getting slaughtered in the stock market.
John:
I don't think he did any good for anybody except for the people who knew well enough to sell when the getting was good.
John:
The Microsoft stock price has been stagnant forever.
John:
But anyway, it doesn't matter.
John:
Like if you don't, I think your job as CEO is not to just try to goose the stock price so people can invest in bail.
John:
It's like, if you care about the company, and surely he does, because he was there from the beginning, right?
John:
If you care about the company, you want to make sure that your life's work is to build this company and leave it, you know, better than you found it, right?
John:
And I think that's what he cares about.
John:
And that's what we should care about when we measure someone as a CEO, not whether it's like, that's like saying, we're going to measure someone's presidency by how many of their friends they got rich with contracts.
John:
with government contracts during their tenure there.
John:
It's like, well, yeah, he totally screwed the whole company, the country, and left it in a worse condition than he started.
John:
But boy, while he was president, he got so many of his friends' awesome government contracts, and they all got rich.
John:
That's not how you measure things.
Casey:
No, it's not how you measure a president.
Casey:
You measure a president or a government by...
Casey:
is the population's quality of life at least as good, if not better, than it was before that government came to office?
John:
That's a high bar, but anyway, yeah.
Casey:
Well, yeah, but similarly with the corporation, it's are they making money, and specifically, are they making money for the people who own portions of the corporation?
Casey:
I mean, I agree with you.
Casey:
To me, Balmer was a schmuck, but...
Casey:
In the end of the day, did he or did he not please the shareholders and make the money?
Casey:
Because arguably, that is the only measure that really matters.
John:
No, I disagree.
John:
That measure almost matters almost not at all.
John:
That's not what matters.
John:
Certainly not what matters to Steve Ballmer.
John:
It's not what matters to anyone, probably including Microsoft shareholders.
John:
Because if shareholders are not just about to die and need to blow their money on a big weekend, they also care about the law.
John:
The long-term health of the company because if you're buying shares and you're not just going to flip them in two days or something or some high-frequency trading thing where you're going to sell them 15 milliseconds after you buy them, you care about the long-term health of the company because you're going to buy, hold, and hope they go up and sell later.
John:
And you don't want it to go up 5% or 10%.
John:
You want it to double.
John:
And Steve Ballmer did not make that happen, is not making that happen.
John:
But anyway, I think that's just a terrible measure of like a terrible way to look at things.
John:
And it's really not.
John:
I mean, just look at the reason the board didn't fire him is because even they didn't look at it that way.
John:
Even the board of directors, you think they're surely their care about shareholder value and everything.
John:
They kept them around because of personal relationships and thinking that he was going to do it.
John:
And the thing is, he said most of the right things like he saw the threats.
John:
He tried to position the company to counter them.
John:
He fielded products that were competitive with them.
John:
It's just that they all flopped, right?
John:
So it's not like he was totally oblivious.
John:
He just didn't execute.
John:
And it just, you know, he was slow.
John:
He was wrong.
John:
And he was just, you know, everything he did had problems.
John:
But...
John:
I think it was time for him to go.
John:
I'm glad he's gone.
John:
Somebody could have done worse, yes, but people could have done a lot better.
Marco:
Probably his worst problem, you can look at his various failings.
Marco:
One of them is obviously not getting very well into most new markets, especially in the consumer space.
Marco:
One of them was just that he was so embarrassing in public so often.
Marco:
He really made himself and the company look stupid on a very frequent basis.
Marco:
And...
Marco:
I think, though, you can look at what Microsoft has done and not done in the last roughly 12 years or 13 or 14 years, since around 2000 to now.
Marco:
And it's very obvious that Microsoft's greatest enemy has been itself, not anybody else, not Apple, not Google.
Marco:
Its greatest enemy has been itself.
Marco:
And
Marco:
Microsoft has always, even from before Balmer, been infamous for infighting and having divisions, especially like Office versus Windows.
Marco:
You'd have these ridiculous infighting groups that would really hurt the products that came out and the company.
Marco:
But it seems like with Ballmer, that all got even worse.
Marco:
He famously had the stack ranking system for the entire company, all these performance reports, and this ultra-competitive environment.
John:
That wasn't him, though.
John:
That predates him as CEO.
John:
Does it?
John:
I don't know.
John:
Yeah, I think it's been around for a long time.
Marco:
Oh, okay.
Marco:
It's possible.
John:
It's been terrible for a long time, yeah, at Microsoft.
Marco:
But it seems like Ballmer's greatest failure over the years has really been...
Marco:
Not fixing that or even making it worse.
Marco:
Microsoft could do a lot of things.
Marco:
They have a lot of smart people there.
Marco:
They have a lot of resources.
Marco:
They have a ridiculous R&D budget.
Marco:
They have ridiculous staff.
Marco:
And a lot of good stuff happens within Microsoft, but so little of it ends up making it into the products because it's just slaughtered by the process and the bureaucracy and the people and the strategy tax and the complexity.
Marco:
Maybe this giant reorganization he was trying to do, which most Microsoft watchers think is a pretty bad idea, and it's probably what actually finally got him fired –
Marco:
Maybe this is actually his attempt to fix that.
John:
Well, it's aspirational.
John:
It's like, boy, I wish this is the company that Microsoft was, but it's not.
John:
And what everyone's saying is like, that's a great vision, but explain to me how you're going to get from where you are to there because that's a big gap and people don't trust that they can get there.
John:
Microsoft's kind of got like a Xerox PARC kind of vibe.
John:
Xerox made all their money selling copiers and they had all this money and they made this research center and they're doing lots of interesting research.
John:
And they made nothing out of it.
John:
Apple took the ideas.
John:
Microsoft took the ideas.
John:
Xerox did not become the power in the personal computing world that they could have been.
John:
And Microsoft had all this money from the PC business.
John:
And they put it into R&D.
John:
And they were out there with the Microsoft Pen for Windows computing.
John:
They were doing tablets way before anyone thought that anyone should be doing tablets.
John:
They made smartphones.
John:
They were putting Windows on phones.
John:
They were doing all these things.
John:
It was all there for the taking.
John:
And they just didn't execute.
John:
They're like Xerox.
John:
They're like...
John:
I mean, they weren't fielding $10,000 auto computers that no one wants to buy, but it was close.
John:
They kept making tablets and Windows-type convertible tablet things and smartphones, and just all of them were not good enough.
John:
And so they were there first, and they had the R&D, and they had the tech, and they did lots of interesting things, but they could not get a good product out of it.
John:
And that's the failure of the company.
John:
So then other companies came along and ate their lunch.
John:
But they were, you know, they, you know, snatched defeat from the drawers of victory.
John:
They had all the money in the world, all the R&D in the world, all the right tech.
John:
They were looking in the right places.
John:
Like sometimes they're looking in the wrong place.
John:
Like interactive TV was the wrong place to look.
John:
And MSNBC was a side show.
John:
That's what happens when you have too much money, I guess.
John:
But they were looking in the right places.
John:
Mobile, pen, tablet, computing.
John:
They just didn't get there.
Casey:
Yeah, and I thought a friend of the show Guy English's post about Balmer's straight jacket was really interesting.
Casey:
And you guys kind of alluded to this earlier in that, OK, so now Balmer has said we're going to go all Apple and reorg the company.
Casey:
And now Balmer's gone.
Casey:
So now somebody else is going to have to come in.
Casey:
And either say, oh, just kidding, or they're going to have to roll with this decision that Balmer made.
Casey:
And that's a tough spot.
Casey:
I mean, arguably being the CEO of a company that big, even when they're doing well is tough, when they're doing not so well is worse.
Casey:
And doing it when you're using somebody else's playbook that you may not buy into sounds worst of all.
John:
Well, no new CEO has to use that playbook, though.
John:
That's the thing about being a new CEO.
John:
And yeah, it's embarrassing when you do the about face, but not that bad because a new guy comes in.
John:
The new guy comes in and people expect him to like, well, now he's really going to clean house or whatever.
John:
And so your first move being reversing all your predecessors move happens all the time.
John:
That's part of the power move of asserting yourself.
John:
So I don't think it's as big of a straitjacket as that post implied.
John:
The problem that post was getting at is that...
John:
Let's assume that this shape that Balmer wants to make Microsoft is a better shape than it is now.
John:
And I think most of us agree that the shape it is now is terrible.
John:
And this new shape looks a lot like Apple and Apple seems to be successful at doing the things that Microsoft says it wants to do, like be a devices and services company or whatever.
John:
So it's like, yeah, okay, that's good.
John:
But, you know, how do you get there from here?
John:
And it's not so much that you're tied into Balmer's plan, is that if you also agree that Microsoft should be that kind of company and it should eventually look like this, now it's on you to figure out how to get there from here.
John:
So we could just lay out the goal, like, we should be more like Apple, and I'm out of here.
John:
But reading too much into it is like, I don't know...
John:
why he got kicked out was, was, was the reorganization, his idea.
John:
And then he got kicked out was the reorganization, the board's idea.
John:
And he just got to announce it before he got kicked out.
John:
Like there's so many things we don't know about the details here.
John:
But once a new guy comes in, all bets are off.
John:
He could do anything.
John:
He could, he could pull like that HP and what's his name.
John:
So it's an AAP.
John:
Yeah.
John:
He came into HP and like said, I forget.
John:
It's like, we're not going to make personal computers anymore.
John:
And we're, but he's, was he the guy who sold Palmer?
John:
He made like a 15 rapid fire drastic decisions and then got booted out.
John:
And then like half of them got reversed.
John:
And,
John:
You're not looking for that kind of disaster here.
John:
I think this is just like one thing.
John:
The new guy is going to say, yes, I agree with that vision.
John:
We're going to try to get there.
John:
And that poor sucker is going to have to do the hard work.
John:
But it's not a straitjacket.
John:
If he comes in and says, nope, I changed my mind, we're going to become like IBM and be a consulting company, then he'll do that.
Casey:
Speaking of IBM, the other series of interesting thoughts I saw about this was another friend of the show, Craig Hockenberry, tweeted about how – I'm going to butcher what he said, which was, although brief, very eloquent.
Casey:
But he said, hey, what Microsoft needs now is a Lou Gerstner.
Casey:
And as the child of a nearly lifelong IBMer, I can tell you that IBM was in a really rough spot.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
And so now we're kind of wondering, okay, well, that's nice.
Casey:
We know we need someone that looks and smells like Gerstner, but how do you find that person and who is that person?
John:
Well, I mean, don't you think he saved IBM by destroying it?
John:
The village had to be destroyed to save it.
John:
He saved IBM, the corporate entity, making it into a profitable business again, but he destroyed the old IBM to do that.
John:
The old IBM was gone and this was the new IBM because he had decided that the old IBM had no place in the world.
John:
And lots of things were lost with that, like lots of...
John:
You know, IBM, creator of the personal computer, and, you know, like that's not the IBM we have today.
John:
They are more of a services company, and that's how he was able to make them successful, but that's not what IBM used to be.
John:
So in some ways, IBM was reincarnated under his leadership, which I'm sure Microsoft Watchers would be like, all right, fine, go ahead, reincarnate Microsoft, because currently it's like a lifeless corpse and no one really...
John:
It's interested in it, right?
John:
But other things, people, if you're looking for Microsoft to return to its former glory, you don't want someone like that coming in and transforming the company into something you don't recognize anymore, even if the new thing is successful.
Casey:
And that's fair.
Casey:
I think that's very fair.
Casey:
I just thought it was a very interesting point in parallel.
Casey:
And I think you're both right.
Casey:
I think that they could stand to have a Gerstner, but maybe that's not what they really want right now.
Casey:
And maybe they don't want to pivot their brand.
Casey:
Right, Marco?
Casey:
Nice.
Casey:
Right.
John:
Well, like Marco said, if they – do they want a forestall?
John:
Do they want like – we want to look like Apple.
John:
We want to be like Apple.
John:
We want to be like a cross between Apple and Google.
John:
We want to have like Google's online services with like the Windows Azure stuff or whatever because Microsoft still has some good tech and good products, which is a shame when any company, tech company is going down the tubes.
John:
It's like there's always good stuff in there, right?
John:
Yeah.
John:
there are good things, things to recommend.
John:
Even Windows Phone is like, you know, it's not actually a bad product at all, right?
John:
It's just that... And Xbox, again, you know, a product that is something that could be something, right?
John:
So you're looking for someone to say...
John:
take all these things get rid of all the bad things but keep us as a company the kind of company that makes the xbox the kind of company that makes windows azure the kind of companies make windows phone like we can do all these things we're smart and capable people uh just make all those things successful now please and so if you want someone to do that and you're looking for someone with experience making kind of like we make devices plus the software that runs them on plus the software and services like you could do worse than a forestall like figure someone who has experience in another company
John:
That is successful doing exactly the thing that you want to be doing.
Marco:
Here's a weird idea.
Marco:
What if Microsoft completely exits the consumer space?
Marco:
So the way this would look would be Xbox would be spun off into its own company, which would solve a big problem for Microsoft, which is making it profitable.
Marco:
That would be spun off or sold, but probably spun off.
Marco:
The rest of Microsoft would become a lot like IBM in that it would be focused on business computing and consulting and enterprise services.
Marco:
Because if you think about it, their consumer stuff is where all of the losses appear to be happening in market share and relevance and probably in profits pretty soon.
Marco:
I forget who tweeted this, and I'm sorry.
Marco:
It's somebody I follow who tweeted.
Marco:
The problem that Microsoft has is that nobody's paying for software anymore.
Marco:
And the direction on that... Well, corporations are.
Casey:
Well, yes, but... Oh, they are.
Marco:
But look at Windows and Office as Microsoft's two big cash cows.
Marco:
Think about how that might be collapsing in the near future.
Marco:
And it's not going to go away.
Marco:
We see it happening.
Marco:
It's not going to go away tomorrow, but it certainly seems like its best days are behind it.
Marco:
And so what if...
Marco:
What if Microsoft's future really is just completely exiting consumer stuff and only being enterprise-focused, high-end office needs, all that?
Marco:
Basically, if your office would have an Exchange server or would use SharePoint, then that's the kind of customer Microsoft wants to keep.
John:
But those are not their good products.
John:
SharePoint is terrible.
John:
Exchange is terrible.
John:
I grant you those products that make money and that no one else wants to be in that business except for maybe like SAP or Oracle or whatever.
John:
But those are not their best products, right?
John:
But they are probably their most successful.
John:
And they're least competitive.
John:
They have the lowest upside, probably, because that's what people are looking for.
John:
What is the upside?
John:
Do we think enterprise software that looks like this crap has a bright future and that you're going to grow the company by selling more of that for more money?
John:
The trend is in the other direction, getting rid of that stuff, using simpler things, switching to Google, integrating with non-Microsoft products.
John:
So they're squeezing every ounce of money out of that.
John:
That's like their last bastion, and they've defended it well, and Balmer has...
John:
Goose that to try to make it produce as much money as possible.
John:
And they have some good things in the web services space that they kind of transition to.
John:
But if anyone was going to look at like the crown jewels of Microsoft, I mean, I don't know if they would pick that enterprise-y type software.
John:
And anyway, like you could make a successful enterprise.
John:
I think I would, actually.
Casey:
I would really consider it.
Casey:
You have no idea how much a SharePoint license is and how many.
Casey:
I mean, for the last four or five years of my life, I have more often than not been working on top of SharePoint, which is why I'm bitter and jaded.
Casey:
But it's popular.
Casey:
It's extremely popular.
Casey:
And you know, Exchange is.
Casey:
I mean, those are not cheap platforms.
Casey:
And when you get an Exchange server or a SharePoint server, you're going to be doing that on Windows Server 2008.
Casey:
And you're going to be using SQL Server.
Casey:
And it spreads quick.
Casey:
And it's profitable.
John:
It's got to be.
John:
But I don't think there's a bright future in selling that kind of software to businesses.
Marco:
Well, no one uses it because it's good.
Marco:
Because it's good does not enter into this.
Marco:
Enterprise software is not about what's good.
Marco:
There's all these other factors involved.
Marco:
And Microsoft is pretty good at those factors.
Marco:
And there's no sign that's going to go away.
John:
There is.
John:
They're already getting
John:
disrupted at the low end it used to be everybody had exchange but now you probably don't have exchange if you're a smaller company you get away with having like igloo or something like that or you use google or something like and you know what about sharing like we have sharepoint and all these things but in our office we use google hangouts we use dropbox to share things because the enterprise software is so terrible and we're a pretty big company right and we still pay for all the microsoft stuff but like it's being eaten from all sides like it's super duper high end i don't even know if microsoft plays there anymore and that's kind of like rarefied
John:
territory anyway where they have special custom systems for that uh and then at the low end microsoft stuff is constantly being eaten by all these little web services and even in companies that pay for these things the people who are in the companies are choosing to use something else it's like the way iphones made it into the enterprise nobody wanted them rim had a stranglehold on it they were great at serving those customers but people didn't want to use them they wanted to use iphones and that's that's the problem with the enterprise business that it's
John:
it's surrounded on all sides by other things that want to eat their lunch.
John:
If people don't want to use your product, like that's, I did this thing, uh, article in fat puts that I think ages ago about what defines enterprise software or, you know, enterprise entanglements and why Apple doesn't want to get involved in enterprise space and enterprise software.
John:
My definition is when the person buying your product is not the person that has to use it.
John:
That's enterprise software, right?
John:
Cause that, cause that totally defines the entire shape of this product because they're saying, how do I, how I'm going to get these guys to pay for my software?
John:
And making the software better is not how you get that because they're not going to be the ones who use it.
John:
They don't care if it's better.
John:
All they care is, does this make my life easier as an IT manager?
John:
And so your product necessarily becomes shaped into this thing that IT managers love and that who cares if anyone else likes it because they have no choice, right?
John:
And that is an evolutionary dead end for software as far as I'm concerned.
Marco:
So let me take a quick break right now, and then I want to talk about another angle of this Microsoft discussion.
Marco:
But because we're a half hour in, let me take a quick break and thank our first sponsor.
Marco:
It is WordBox.
Marco:
WordBox is a simple yet powerful text editor for iOS.
Marco:
Now, this is pretty cool.
Marco:
These guys made it, and...
Marco:
We've had a long history with arranging this spot because they initially wanted to release this during the Dev Center outage.
Marco:
That was when it was originally scheduled, so we had to bump them.
Marco:
And they were the nicest guys in the world dealing with them and moving this around.
Marco:
So I want to thank them for, first of all, their flexibility and how nice they are.
Marco:
Then I got a chance to see this app.
Marco:
And I got to say, WordBox is beautiful.
Marco:
It is an absolutely beautiful app.
Marco:
Go to wordboxapp.com to see what I'm talking about.
Marco:
It's a text editor.
Marco:
It has auto-saving, a magical scroll button.
Marco:
You can move the cursor wherever you want really easily.
Marco:
It supports multi-markdown.
Marco:
It supports text expander touch.
Marco:
It is all cloud-based.
Marco:
It uses Dropbox.
Marco:
It has so many features.
Marco:
I can't believe this came out of nowhere.
Marco:
It has folder support.
Marco:
It has Dropler sharing, Dropbox backgrounding support, offline support, exports to HTML or PDF from Markdown.
Marco:
There are so many smaller apps that I think this could very easily replace.
Marco:
Word counts, emailing, it's really fantastic.
Marco:
And what I like most about it is the UI design.
Marco:
I mean, this not only fits right at home on iOS 7, I think, but it just is beautiful.
Marco:
And you can get it right now for iOS 6, too.
Marco:
It's really a fantastic, clean, modern design.
Marco:
There's no, like, quote, skeuomorphism around.
Marco:
It's very clean and modern.
Marco:
And do you remember, like, the day before WWDC's keynote...
Marco:
or even that morning, I think it was, there was this company called Flesky that everyone thought had blown a exclusive about iOS 7 supporting third-party keyboards because Flesky had made their own keyboard.
Marco:
Well, WordBox supports Flesky built-in.
Marco:
I believe it's their launch partner.
Marco:
I believe it's the first app that has Flesky support.
Marco:
So you can use this cool WordBox app to try out the new Flesky keyboard and see...
Marco:
see finally an alternative keyboard in iOS and what that means and what that could bring us and how good it is.
Marco:
Really cool app.
Marco:
It's called WordBox.
Marco:
Go to wordboxapp.com or simply search the app store for WordBox.
Marco:
It's the one with the cool light blue icon with the W in the circle in the middle of it.
Marco:
It's easier.
Marco:
Just go to wordboxapp.com.
Marco:
You can see lots of screenshots and video.
Marco:
It's really cool.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to wordboxapp.com for sponsoring the show.
Marco:
And once again, check out Wordbox.
Marco:
Thanks.
Casey:
Yeah, I'm running iOS 7 on my carry phone now, and it fits right in.
Casey:
I mean, it really does look good.
Casey:
So if you're a Markdown person, you should definitely check it out.
Marco:
Yeah, I'm really impressed by the design of those.
Marco:
I mean, I know I said it before, but I'll say it again.
Marco:
I love they have this awesome, you can see it in the screenshots, they have this awesome black slide-up action menu where it grays out the whole screen and all the buttons are the big circles, kind of like the iOS 7 dialer, the phone dialer.
Marco:
Really, really cool, and I was very impressed by this design.
John:
The prevalence of applications that do something other than the OS defaults for cursor control should tell Apple that their cursor control defaults are inadequate.
John:
I keep hoping for the OS release.
John:
Every time I have to do anything involving the cursor in a standard iOS text field, it's like, come on, Apple.
John:
Come on.
John:
And now it's up to every third party app.
John:
They have to implement their own thing, which is kind of good because it's kind of like a lab to try all sorts of different techniques in terms of swiping and tapping.
John:
And like, you know, my big complaint is the weight.
John:
How long do I like press and hold?
John:
It's such an important part of interacting with text and selections in iOS and by default.
John:
But I don't like waiting anymore.
John:
Who is it?
John:
Was it you, Casey?
John:
Or someone recently just installed iOS 7.
John:
I know you did as well, Casey.
John:
Or was it you, Marco, complaining about how long the animations take?
Marco:
It wasn't recently that I installed it, but I complained about it last night.
John:
Yeah, like I still haven't.
John:
Last time I used iOS 7 was at WWDC, right?
John:
But when I do install it, I fully expect to agree with everything you said in that post.
John:
Oh, yeah, you're going to hate that.
John:
And I can't do a defaults right, you know, whatever, hack to get rid of the animations like I can in the last time.
John:
Yep, exactly.
John:
Yet another reason that the Mac is superior.
John:
Anyway.
Casey:
Oh, goodness.
Casey:
All right, so Marco, you said you wanted to make another point?
Marco:
Yeah, one more idea here to think about this Microsoft angle a little bit more.
Marco:
How do you – or rather, do you think there is a way –
Marco:
That Microsoft could regain growth and a foothold at all.
Marco:
But, you know, especially could they grow market share again in the world of mobile, of smartphones and tablets?
Marco:
Like, do you see a way that that could happen?
Marco:
Because honestly, I kind of don't.
John:
I totally do.
John:
But, like, the company, things have to get worse before they get better.
John:
So, like, buckle up.
John:
Like, they're going to have to lose a lot of weight, a lot of money, a lot of personnel, a lot of projects, a lot of products.
John:
But, you know, it's like when Jobs came back.
John:
He canned, like, everything, basically, and said the whole company is concentrating on the iMac, right?
John:
And then our next generation OS project, and that's going to take, like, three tries for us to get right.
John:
But everything else is gone.
John:
Newton gone, Open.com, you know, HyperCard gone, like, everything.
John:
Just...
John:
And like, I doubt anyone's going to come into Microsoft and do that, but they should.
John:
Because if you want, pick your product.
John:
If you want the Xbox to succeed.
John:
If you want Windows Phone to succeed.
John:
Whatever it is that you want to be your thing that you think has an upside in the future.
John:
And I would say like, you know, Windows Phone, tablets, and Xbox, and any television related things like that.
John:
That set of consumer products probably has a much brighter future than their other consumer products.
John:
those can be made in like they're close like you know windows 8 is terrible for policy reasons not so much tech reasons uh and as you said in past shows they were the first ones to the new aesthetic so they have like the right people in terms of design and everything there it's just that you know all the other crap that they do and all the stupid entanglements and the fact they have to have the desktop mode on the surface and you know like they're just they're their own worst enemy and uh
John:
I think they could turn this company around and pick a few of those great products and make them successful.
John:
The cost will be almost everything else they do.
Marco:
But see, I don't – that worked for Apple.
Marco:
But there's a very different – that was a very different scenario.
Marco:
That was – first of all, Apple was in way worse shape then than Microsoft is in now.
John:
Yeah, it's easier to do crazy things when you're about to go bankrupt.
John:
Exactly.
John:
And Microsoft is not, unfortunately.
Marco:
Not at all.
Marco:
Microsoft is actually doing – financially, they're doing all right.
Marco:
They're doing pretty well, I think.
John:
It has to get worse before it gets better.
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
But see, that's the thing.
Marco:
I don't see that strategy working for a lot of the reasons.
Marco:
I wrote this piece forever ago about Microsoft and Apple's respective customer cultures.
Marco:
This was back when Windows 8 hadn't come out yet, but I think it was being shown off.
Marco:
And I was speculating at the time that Microsoft customers generally don't like being told what to do.
Marco:
And so they would probably resist Windows 8 if the new interface was mandatory.
Marco:
And they couldn't just turn it off and just, oh, we see the desktop again.
Marco:
And that turned out to be correct, that Microsoft did release it that way.
Marco:
People did hate it.
Marco:
And now with that whatever code name, Blue Mountain or whatever it is this fall, they're going to revert that.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
I think Microsoft, the reason why people buy Microsoft products is because the products let the people do whatever they want with their computers, and they hardly ever kill anything.
Marco:
They hardly ever restrict anything.
Marco:
It's really not open in the sense of Stallman, but it's open in the sense of capabilities and settings and stuff like that.
Marco:
It lets people do what they want.
John:
But it's like raising a toddler and never telling them no.
John:
Well, sure.
John:
That's what they're doing with their business, and it's terrible.
John:
Back at that old hypercritical episode where I talked about what's wrong with Microsoft, their biggest problem is that when they had all the power in the world, they didn't use it to subjugate the masses.
John:
They're like, we are on top of the world.
John:
Windows 95 has Jay Leno introducing it, and it's the greatest thing in the entire world, and everybody loves Microsoft, and we do everything.
John:
That was the time to...
John:
You know, say, and guess what?
John:
Our new thing is not even going to have a desktop.
John:
It's all going to be like whatever the crazy idea was.
John:
Because at that time, you know, they were like, oh, my God, I don't.
John:
You're right.
John:
They would all go, I don't like this.
John:
I want my old desktop back.
John:
But if you didn't give them the option, then Microsoft could have sat there with its arms folded and say, what are you going to do?
John:
Go to Linux on the desktop?
John:
Buy a Mac?
John:
Ha!
John:
I mean, those were ridiculous options, right?
John:
They had the power to turn their whole user base, as sort of Apple did, because the Apple faithful were like, you know, we love Apple.
John:
They're about to go bankrupt.
John:
We'll buy anything you make.
John:
uh tl computer i i guess like all right and this operating system that's humongously slow and has these crazy buttons the genie effect's kind of cool like you know they had a very small tiny amount of power and then grew it into something larger but microsoft was on top of the world and they could have they should have taken that opportunity to turn the ship now they're like weakened and injured and like here's windows 8 we have some ideas for new interface but please you can still get your desktop back don't hurt us and that's that's
John:
I think they have more power than they thought they did.
John:
I think Windows, it would have been more successful if they had really committed the company to it.
John:
But you're right.
John:
At this point, people do have other options, and maybe they don't have enough power to...
John:
You know, to say, you can't get the desktop back.
John:
Oh, Windows 8 looks like this.
John:
And then IT would have been like, all right, everybody, let's start our plans to convert to... I don't know.
John:
They still don't have great apps because Apple doesn't want their business and they can't use Linux.
John:
So, I don't know.
John:
I think their big mistake is catering to their customers to this real and sometimes perceived to be larger than it really is desire by their customers not to have things change.
John:
Because that's what leadership is.
John:
It's telling people, no, this is the way things are going to be in the future.
John:
No, you can't have the old way back.
John:
You can't do that all the time, but at certain turning points, it's time to do that.
John:
And if you don't do that ever, you will just be left with your cranky customers who will never really be satisfied and who are a dwindling base.
John:
I mean, IBM kind of got in that situation too, or people selling mainframes or whatever, where you just keep selling mainframes and they just keep making demands.
John:
And those mainframe people want mainframe features.
John:
And eventually you realize you're selling to three people and the government and the entire rest of the industry has moved on.
John:
And your three customers are still cranky about something.
Casey:
Well, right, but the problem is when Microsoft caters to a large degree to enterprise, enterprise is always a big, slow-moving entity.
Casey:
And if you're answering to the enterprise, they're never going to want new.
Casey:
They're going to want new only when they have to have it, because that means they have to spend money from their tight budgets to buy new.
Casey:
And so as long as they're concerned at all with what the enterprise thinks, I don't think that there's much that can be done.
Casey:
And that kind of comes back to our conversation earlier.
Casey:
So how do you make Microsoft better?
Casey:
I almost wonder if, as you guys, I think maybe one of you guys said it, if you just spin off the consumer business, however you define that, and say, you go do your thing and don't give a crap about the enterprise.
Casey:
Do what you think is right.
Casey:
And then the enterprise folks can do the boring stuff that the IT guys need.
Casey:
And they don't need to be as mobile in the sense of agile, I guess I should say.
Casey:
And they can continue to do the same old thing over and over until they eventually wither away and die.
John:
But say you tell the enterprise people, tough luck, you're getting what we give you.
John:
And they say, all right, no, screw you, Microsoft.
John:
You didn't listen to us.
John:
You're not giving us what we want.
John:
What do they do after that?
John:
All right, it's fine.
John:
Microsoft says, fine, we lose all your business.
John:
What are you guys going to buy instead?
John:
And then they're going to be like, I guess we'll buy Google services.
John:
Wherever they run to, they're kind of a poison pill.
John:
Say Microsoft completely pulls out of enterprise, says we are canning, we're stopping SQL Server, we're stopping Exchange.
John:
The only thing we're going to keep around is Windows Azure because that's like forward-looking network-type services and it's not the same thing.
John:
You can't have it anymore.
John:
We're canceling all those products.
John:
And they're going to be like, but, but,
John:
Wait, no, fine, fine.
John:
Go to someone else for their business.
John:
Whoever gets all that business is now tied down by that crap and those customers.
John:
So if Google got those businesses, unless you're really, really strong, unless Google also held the line, anyone who these enterprise customers went to would be dragged down by them.
John:
It's like zombies dragging you down into the pit of irrelevance, right?
John:
Because they're like, we need to see the roadmap going forward and you can't change things because now we're your big, important customer.
John:
And how many millions of dollars do we give you every year?
John:
And it takes a strong company to be able to say no to them.
John:
Microsoft can't do it.
John:
And if whoever they go to, like, I don't know who they would go to.
John:
They go to Oracle, you know, have fun with them.
John:
Yeah.
John:
Or again, SAP or some new company would rise up to take their money.
John:
You do not want those customers.
John:
Those customers are not good for a successful business.
John:
And if you lose them or intentionally piss them off and abandon them, they're going to have to go somewhere.
John:
And chances are good they're going to go to one of your competitors and screw them.
John:
And then you'll be free to sell like Apple.
John:
You know what I mean?
John:
Like Apple got out of the business for the most part, except for maybe a little bit of education.
John:
And it let them go forward and do what they want without worrying about how they mess with the, you know, the enterprise.
John:
They did a little bit of like, oh, OK, we'll change our iPhone to work a little bit better with the enterprise.
John:
But they are not focused on that customer.
John:
They don't do what the enterprise wants.
John:
Ask anyone who has to deal with Apple.
John:
They do not do what a large company wants them to do.
John:
And I think Apple is freer and more successful for it.
Casey:
You know, and you're right, but also consider what if Microsoft pulled an Apple card and they – let me try to get these words out in a way that makes sense.
Casey:
What if Microsoft said, screw you, Enterprise, and then what if a different Microsoft product, the new version of SQL Server, the new version of Exchange that breaks all the old Exchange but is better in every way?
Casey:
What if that's what the new thing is?
Casey:
So they self-cannibalize.
Casey:
Is that so terrible?
Casey:
Is that what it will take?
John:
That's not terrible, but you have to go into it with a new attitude, right?
John:
You have to go into it with the attitude of, A, we're breaking everything, and I know you don't like it, and we're hoping that you like our new product, but B, going forward, you have to know the rules have changed.
John:
You don't get to dictate what we want.
John:
We are not going to hold backward compatibility forever and ever and ever just to make you feel better.
John:
Right.
John:
You have to take more power in that relationship, which is different.
John:
They haven't been able to do it.
John:
And that's why I think it's such poison to have these as your customers, because they do pay you tons and tons of money.
John:
And it's natural for any business to go, geez, these customers are paying us tons of money.
John:
We have to pay attention to what we want.
John:
Otherwise, that's the instinct of a business.
John:
The customer is always right.
John:
Do what the customer wants.
John:
And you end up...
John:
making your products beholden to these customers who you know to these buyers who are not going to actually use your products and it starts taking that same shape again so you have to it's very difficult to serve those businesses while still trying to make a product that's good that that the people who are buying it you know the actual users who are not actually buying it like and i don't know if any company's ever been successful doing that apple solution was just like fine we'll exit that business that's the solution uh if someone's out if there's some company out there serving enterprise and government uh
John:
While also making awesome products that the users like, feel free to write us and tell us about it.
John:
Is it Lotus Notes?
Marco:
I've heard it might be Lotus Notes.
Marco:
Everything you guys have just said, I think, supports the theory that Microsoft should probably split itself into consumer and enterprise as separate companies or majorly separate divisions to the point where they could have totally separate product lines.
Marco:
Because...
Marco:
If you think about it, trying to shove corporate Windows on the desktop at home and on laptops and on consumer stuff has always kind of had problems.
Marco:
Back when Windows 2000, NT5, when that was supposed to be the big unifying release, and it was so hard to do technically that they had to push off the big unifying release to Windows XP, and then Windows Me came out.
Marco:
Ugh.
Marco:
But it was clear back then that it was very, very hard to mash these two worlds together of consumer and enterprise on a technical level.
Marco:
And then I think now we're seeing a lot of that on the product level and even on the company level where we're seeing –
Marco:
Microsoft is not doing a very good job of balancing these two things, especially when it comes to their consumer device side.
Marco:
You see the Surface versus the Surface Pro as two separate products, Office having its own giant pile of politics and conflicts and issues in that world.
Marco:
You see...
Marco:
Microsoft not being able to politically and strategically release Office for iOS or Android.
Marco:
You see these pretty big problems that are really hurting Microsoft big time.
Marco:
Imagine this.
Marco:
Imagine Microsoft spins out a new consumer company.
Marco:
They are responsible for Xbox, whatever Zune still has left.
Marco:
Basically, they're responsible for Xbox plus tablets and phones.
Marco:
Scott Forstall is the CEO of that company.
Marco:
Then their regular, everything else, the entire enterprise and services side of their business, all the server software, Windows for PCs, Office, all of that is a totally separate company that has somebody like Balmer but good at the head of that company.
Marco:
Why is that worse?
Marco:
Tim Cook could run that one.
Marco:
Why is that worse than what they have now?
Casey:
Because the consumer side isn't making any money.
Casey:
There's no money to be made on the consumer side.
John:
I don't think that's the problem.
John:
The technical problem is that all those things that you just described share so much common technology.
John:
That it would be very difficult, like legally speaking, how do you divvy that up?
John:
Well, they could license it to each other.
John:
Do they diverge or whatever?
John:
Yeah.
John:
But like, when I picture that in my mind, what I picture is a rocket ship going up into space.
John:
And stage one is the enterprise business.
John:
And it expends its fuel, separates and tumbles back into the atmosphere.
John:
Yeah.
John:
and stage two and three is like the consumer products and so it's like who's going to volunteer to be on the stage one that fires us up and then runs out of fuel and then tumbles into the ocean who wants to be in that company the enterprise business i know but like they're the biggest rocket right they have the most fuel they have the most power but inevitably they're going to run a fuel tumble into the ocean like i would not if i was there and they were divvying up the company along those lines i would wonder how many people would raise their hands to be in that other part or to invest in that other part or whatever like
John:
It's like, this is the future business, and this is the current slash dying business.
John:
That's a tough sell.
Marco:
The current one is the one that pays dividends and makes reliable money every year, and the consumer new one is the potential growth.
John:
It's the shrinking one.
John:
I think those two things can exist within the same company.
John:
It just has to be a change in attitude.
John:
I think existing within the same company gives you the biggest benefit, because that's like using the booster rocket and not, like this analogy is failing now, but not
John:
Not jettisoning it, like keeping it with you.
John:
It's kind of like what Apple did with the Mac.
John:
The Mac, we have to get this thing back on track.
John:
We have to make one that's teal so people will buy it.
John:
While we're doing that, let's work on the next stuff.
John:
And we're going to try a whole bunch of things.
John:
And the one of them that stuck was the iPod.
John:
It's like, oh, that gives us some more breathing room.
John:
Okay, we got to work on the next thing, right?
John:
So it's not like the Mac was the office cash cow, but it was the only thing they had.
John:
And so job one was make sure that keeps making money.
John:
And Microsoft's already got that covered, right?
John:
That can power your company while you work on the other things.
John:
And when you work on the other things and the other things are successful, like it's not like the Mac has faded away and slowly dwindled.
John:
It's been growing along with everything else.
John:
It's just growing such a smaller rate than everything else that it looks like it's unimportant, but it's there, right?
John:
So you can use that enterprise business as your platform to,
John:
that will keep you safe and in the black long enough for you to work on the next big thing.
John:
And if you hit that next big thing, that part that's been helping you stay safe and in the black, that could be a successful business too and also still growing and also improving.
John:
So I think probably keeping the company together, but just, you know, organizing it and running it differently is probably a better strategy than splitting it up because with splitting it up, I don't see good things for that enterprise company.
John:
And I see all sorts of crazy issues in terms of like the entanglements almost get worse when you have to have some sort of cross licensing agreement.
John:
Or, you know, coordinated development to maintain compatibility between enterprise windows and consumer windows and all that other stuff.
Casey:
You know, the thing that is, is that I feel like we've been beating up Microsoft a lot today.
Casey:
And I think it's easy to kick somebody when they're down.
Casey:
But I think I speak for all of us in saying that I'm actually very hopeful for Microsoft.
Casey:
And I was thinking about it.
Casey:
You guys made the point earlier that, you know, Microsoft was really early on tablets and they were really early on smartphones.
Casey:
Well, maybe they weren't that smart, but they were certainly more than just feature phones.
Casey:
And so during those days, it was like they had...
Casey:
They had good timing and they had decent vision, but never really executed.
Casey:
You know, they saw that smartphones were a thing and they saw it arguably before a lot of other people did, but they never really did it well.
Casey:
Now with, say, Windows Phone 8...
Casey:
they had pretty good vision and pretty good execution, but the timing was terrible.
Casey:
And so I wonder if for whatever the next big thing is, the next mobile, maybe it's TV, as everyone's been saying, but I doubt it.
Casey:
But whatever that next thing is, maybe they will get all three of those timing, vision, and execution right.
Casey:
And then maybe that will really turn them around.
Casey:
And you could argue that maybe Azure is that thing.
Casey:
I'm not saying that is, but you could
Casey:
pose the argument that maybe Azure's that thing.
Casey:
And I'm really hopeful that maybe one of these days they'll get all three right at the same time because it's better for all of us, even diehard Apple users, when Microsoft is competitive and good.
Marco:
Well, going back a second to the question I asked right after the last break, and it's almost time for the next one.
Marco:
But my theoretical question here – let's ignore the question of whether the company gets split up or not because that obviously is a rat hole.
Marco:
For the purpose of this, it doesn't actually matter.
Yeah.
Marco:
Imagine what would an ideal Microsoft product launch look like today in the phone and tablet area, like in the general mobile devices area, which is where all the growth is and which is what's slowly eating PCs.
Marco:
Actually, not even that slowly.
Marco:
Where is Microsoft's place in this market?
Marco:
Because I'm kind of thinking they don't have one because here's the thing.
Marco:
Let's say they release a real... I mean, look, Windows Phone 7 and 8 and Windows 8 were both pretty good.
Marco:
Neither of them were great, but they were both pretty good.
Marco:
Especially for a Microsoft release in the last decade, they were really good.
Marco:
You can look at basically...
Marco:
The last few things Microsoft did on their major platforms, Windows 7 was very well received, Windows Phone 7, Windows 8, and Windows Phone 8.
Marco:
Those were all very well received critically.
Marco:
But in the market, Windows 7 I think did well, but the rest of it, especially in the mobile area, has really done pretty terribly.
Marco:
What could they do if they released something that was really, really great?
Marco:
Let's say Windows 8 on the Surface.
Marco:
Let's say that was a really great launch.
Marco:
Let's say they even got the Surface down to $300 at launch, and so it was price competitive because when it did launch, it wasn't.
Marco:
But let's say they got it there.
Marco:
What could they release that would give them substantial growth and market share in this market?
Marco:
I don't think there was anything they could do because Apple has the premium end locked up tight.
Marco:
Google has everything else locked up tight.
Marco:
I don't really see room for a third party here doing similar kinds of things.
Marco:
And maybe they do something totally different, but then what is that?
Marco:
They tried a little bit with Windows 8 and some of the Surface PC crossover stuff, but that didn't work that well either.
John:
Well, I think Casey was right that that was a timing issue.
John:
You either get the execution wrong or they get the timing wrong or both.
John:
And this was a timing issue.
John:
They released...
John:
adequate products with some interesting things about them to recommend them, but the timing was awful.
John:
They're kind of in the similar position that Apple used to be in.
John:
Apple used to routinely launch better products, but nobody cared.
John:
Oh, because everybody uses Windows, because they can't run my applications on it, because, you know, like the software ecosystem, like, you know, it doesn't matter how good Apple makes stuff.
John:
No matter anything Apple releases, no one's going to care.
John:
But that's not entirely... It's just the bar is really high.
John:
So...
John:
Who would have thought that the solution was to release a teal Macintosh?
John:
That will do it.
John:
Like, oh, yeah, now, you know, that generated excitement.
John:
Why did it generate excitement?
John:
Because it was a different color and it looked different, like fashion.
John:
You know, like they started, you know, they took a different tact and it got them attention.
John:
Did that turn the whole company around?
John:
No, but that gave them a little more breathing room, right?
John:
Yeah.
John:
And then the next thing, the iPod, which everyone shunned, but that turned out to be a great idea.
John:
Like, you know, it's possible.
John:
It just is really, really hard.
John:
And if you're really late, like if Apple, Apple can't be the seventh company to release a translucent colored computer, no matter how good it is.
John:
They had to be the one to make the big splash with it, right?
John:
So Microsoft was not the first one to release a tablet.
John:
They were kind of the first one with the Windows 8 type look, but it wasn't enough, and it was diluted and watered down.
John:
But there are plenty of areas where Microsoft could be successful with a new product.
John:
They just have to release it.
John:
And I would say even the Xbox, an established category, could have been a runaway hit if everything had gone their way, right?
John:
So say...
John:
They released, say, Sony screwed up.
John:
Nintendo let them do what they're continuing to do because they're already screwing up.
John:
Sony screws up.
John:
And Microsoft comes out, and they do everything right with the new Xbox launch.
John:
And everybody loves them, and they end up taking market share from almost everybody else.
John:
They become the uncontested, undisputed platform for AAA games.
John:
Because there's not, you know, the competition for that market is like Nintendo, Sony and PC space, which is, you know, kind of sort of Microsoft slash Steam slash whatever EA and stuff like that.
John:
That is a big market.
John:
That market makes a lot of money.
John:
And if Microsoft could have come out and dominated it, that would be a big win for them.
John:
Because they're already in that market.
John:
And this is a generational turnover where lots of things are happening.
John:
If they had executed amazingly well and if they got lucky and their competitors didn't execute as well, that would be a big win.
John:
And all of a sudden you'd see that making a lot of money for them.
John:
They could have made like wee bucks.
John:
From the launch.
John:
That's not how it turned out.
John:
They ended up doing a whole bunch of things wrong.
John:
And one of their competitors, Sony, did not do a lot of things wrong.
John:
And it looks like it's going to be a horse race again.
John:
But I don't count them out.
John:
It's just that it's going to be really hard.
John:
And you can't look at what your competitors have already done and try to do it better.
John:
Because...
John:
You never know what better part you need to do to make it happen.
John:
If you looked at Apple, it's like, well, what do they have to do?
John:
How awesome is the computer they have?
John:
No, they have to release a computer that's faster than everybody else.
John:
So they have to release one that is more reliable.
John:
Oh, they have to release one that's a different color.
John:
What?
John:
What did that guy say?
John:
A different color?
John:
Whatever.
John:
That turned out to be the thing.
John:
A different color was the thing that got them attention and turned things around.
John:
Obviously, I'm making light of it.
John:
It's much more to it than that.
Marco:
I didn't think it was that simple, but...
John:
You know what I mean?
John:
No one would have predicted that.
John:
If you had to ask, okay, we're getting killed here.
John:
We're releasing better products to Microsoft.
John:
What do we have to do to make people notice us?
John:
And you brainstormed it.
John:
The guy who was coming up with the idea for the iMac, everyone would have been like, that's not going to do it.
John:
Because in the abstract, it seems stupid.
John:
You have to see the concrete iMac to understand what it is about it.
John:
That's a difference in vision, and it has to be executed well.
John:
But just the idea of we're going to make a computer that is designed differently, physically speaking.
John:
uh that doesn't sound like a winning idea uh but the execution matters so if you said we're going to make a tablet that also doubles as a pc i don't even know that's a winning idea but certainly the execution where there's one arm version and then like an intel version with a fan in it and that you can put the desktop on both of them because they're afraid to go all the way you know like the execution was not winning and i'm not even sure if that idea was winning but i don't rule out the concept of them feeling a product that
John:
you know, becomes very popular and makes people sit up and take notice of Microsoft again.
Marco:
And with that, our second sponsor this week is another new iOS app.
Marco:
I love this kind of sponsor.
Marco:
This is my favorite kind of sponsor.
Marco:
It's another new iOS app.
Marco:
It's called Notograph.
Marco:
And it's like photograph, but for notes.
Marco:
So Notograph, N-O-T-O-G-R-A-P-H.
Marco:
And this is a pretty cool app.
Marco:
We talked last episode or two episodes ago about photo storage and photo stream and stuff like that.
Marco:
Notograph is a place to keep photos that you're taking more for a note-taking purpose, and they can be kept outside of your camera roll, so they aren't clogging up your camera roll because you're not really taking a photo of the label of a wine that you like.
Marco:
You don't really need that to be in your family vacation photos.
Marco:
That's not the purpose that you're taking it for.
Marco:
And I use my camera on my iPhone all the time for this purpose, you know, for the purpose of reminding me of something that I want to come back to later.
Marco:
You know, for me, it's often as simple as, like, a picture of where I parked in the parking garage.
Marco:
You know, I'll take a picture of the nearest sign with the letter and number on it, something like that.
Marco:
Or it can be longer, like, oh, here's, you know, here's a beer or a light.
Marco:
Here's a product I wanted to look at.
Marco:
Here's something I saw in a store but I want to learn more about.
Marco:
I want to go read Amazon reviews.
Marco:
Whatever the case may be.
Marco:
So Notograph is an app made for this purpose.
Marco:
First of all, it's designed primarily for quick captures because obviously when you're in these kind of situations, you don't want to have to be filled with lots of navigation.
Marco:
You launch it, it's quick capture, it opens always ready to take a picture.
Marco:
It has all sorts of sharing options, iCloud, syncing with Dropbox, Evernote, you can email, you can message, all that stuff.
Marco:
You can save these into your camera roll if you want to, but you don't have to.
Marco:
It has a whole organizational system.
Marco:
You can create folders and manage all these things.
Marco:
But one of the coolest things about this, I think, is the UI.
Marco:
It's a really opinionated UI, and I like that about it.
Marco:
It was designed with iOS 7 in mind
Marco:
But if you take a look at the site, it's notograph.net slash ATP.
Marco:
Go to notograph.net slash ATP to take a look at their UI.
Marco:
It's very text-heavy, and it uses this awesome... What's the font here?
Marco:
It's Tungsten by Heffler-Ferrer-Jones.
Marco:
So it's a fantastic professional font, and...
Marco:
It is a very text-heavy iOS 7 principle-styled app, but it doesn't look like every other iOS 7 app.
Marco:
Because we're about to enter an era where every app looks white with Helvetica, Noya, and is all the same.
Marco:
This looks different.
Marco:
It takes a lot of the lessons learned from iOS 7, but it has its own style.
Marco:
And they have this cool UI mechanic where to see the photos in a list, you need some kind of thumbnail.
Marco:
They have this thing where the list is a big rectangular cell, the way table cells in iOS usually are.
Marco:
And they have this cool UI where you just drag just a horizontal box up and down the photo to pick what part of it you want to be that little skinny rectangular thumbnail.
Marco:
It's really cool.
Marco:
Very cool UI.
Marco:
Very cool idea.
Marco:
And they even have, and this is pretty cool,
Marco:
They even have a video made by our friend Jonathan Mann, the guy who made our theme song.
Marco:
If you go to their website, notograph.net slash ATP, you can see this awesome music video that Jonathan Mann made for it.
Marco:
It's really cool.
Marco:
So I think this is worth checking out.
Marco:
I think you should definitely go get it right now to support them and our show.
Marco:
So thanks a lot to Notograph for sponsoring our show.
Marco:
N-O-T-O-G-R-A-P-H, like photograph, but for notes, notograph.net slash ATP.
Marco:
Thank you very much.
Casey:
Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the thumbnail thing because that was – I agree with everything you said.
Casey:
I think the thumbnail thing was the most interesting bit of the UI that I saw.
Casey:
And it was a really clever way to make a list that didn't feel like every other list that you've ever seen in iOS.
Casey:
And it is a pretty slick app, so you should definitely check it out.
John:
All these applications that use like a –
John:
They want to show you your content as the item.
John:
They don't want to have an item that just lays like a list box and a thumbnail.
John:
If you're sorting pictures of something, they want the pictures to be the item.
John:
iPhoto is like this on the Mac, where when you have events, it picks one of the photos from the events to be the thing of the photo.
John:
The key feature for any application that does that is there has to be a way for you to say, you know what?
John:
You picked the wrong picture iPhoto for that event.
John:
I would like you to use a different one.
John:
Or you know what, Notograph...
John:
actually i would have cropped that differently so i could see like the name of the wine label that's that i took the picture of or whatever and that's the key feature it seems like well what's the difference that's like a power user feature who's ever going to use that but oh man it makes so much of a difference when you can move that little rectangle and pick which part you want to crop or by the way people who don't know in uh what is it an iphone spacebar it lets you when you're scrubbing through the pictures in an event you're scrubbing through with the cursor hit the spacebar you still use iphone you won't yes i do
John:
To pick the one you want for the event, that is one of my favorite iPhoto features that they actually added in recent years.
John:
One of the few favorite features.
John:
And the fact that Notograph has something like that is a great idea.
Marco:
Everyone should do that.
Marco:
Not only is that the best Syracusian feature pick that I could possibly think of, but we have what I believe might be the perfect Syracusian topic coming up next.
Marco:
So what happened with Nintendo today?
Marco:
Not much.
John:
Not much.
John:
Yeah.
John:
I think a lot of people are making fun of this product.
John:
We're talking about the Nintendo 2DS, which is not a typo.
John:
It's not a joke.
John:
Kind of like the name Wii.
John:
It seems like it might be a joke to begin with, but no.
John:
It's the real name.
John:
In some ways, it's kind of clever, but anyway.
John:
The 3DS is their handheld gaming system with a 3D...
John:
You know, you don't need glasses, kind of a stereoscopic screen on the top and a touchscreen on the bottom, which is crazy in a strange Nintendo kind of way.
John:
But actually, after a fairly disastrous start, it started selling well when they slashed the price.
John:
And so now they're making a version of their flagship product.
John:
And the flagship feature of the flagship product right there in the name, 3DS, was that it's like a Nintendo DS, but it's 3D, right?
John:
So now they made a version of it without the 3D.
Casey:
Can I interrupt you real quick?
Casey:
The 3DS, that folds in half, does it not?
John:
Yes, it does.
John:
It has a hinge, just like there was the DS, and there's like seven variants of this thing that are out there.
John:
I don't want to enumerate all of them, but Nintendo is not shy about making different variations.
John:
Big ones, small ones, ones with extra cameras.
Casey:
One's as big as your head.
John:
Yeah, and it's actually not a terrible idea because they make the big ones basically for adult-sized hands.
John:
And not that I play handheld games, but if I did, I would appreciate the fact they made big ones.
John:
But anyway, the 2DS is getting rid of the 3D.
John:
And the 3D has kind of been one of those things where it almost amazes me that they ever ship the product because...
John:
It's interesting tech.
John:
3D without glasses is a good idea because everyone hates the stupid glasses.
John:
It does work as advertised, but you do have to keep your head in a certain position.
John:
Otherwise, you get the wrong image and the wrong eyes and it doesn't quite work, right?
John:
And they shipped it with a little slider that lets you turn down the 3D effect.
John:
And when you put the slider all the way down, it turns it off.
John:
So they probably have some kind of stats since these things are internet connected.
John:
How many people using our 3DSs that we've sold have that slider all the way down all the time and probably determined that that 3D feature is not as popular as we thought it was going to be.
John:
It apparently isn't a big differentiator for people.
John:
It's not the reason people are buying this.
John:
They're buying them.
John:
They're putting the slider down to the bottom.
John:
They're leaving it there and they're just using it like a Nintendo DS or whatever.
John:
And they're really buying it because we make good games.
John:
So let's make one of these products without the 3D feature.
John:
because we can save money.
John:
And the way they seem to save money with this product is, you know, by decontenting it, to use the word from the auto industry, like, uh, getting rid of the 3d that is surely cheaper to have a screen that doesn't do with that little 3d things, a little lenticular things on top of it and everything.
John:
Uh, uh,
John:
It doesn't fold in half, and I thought that was because they wanted to save money on the hinge, because hinges are expensive on electronics and more moving parts, and you have to thread ribbon cables through them, and there's reliability issues and all that other stuff.
John:
But what I've read, and I don't know if this is confirmed yet, but I've just read it, so by the time you hear this episode, maybe you'll know whether it's true or not, is that...
John:
it doesn't have two separate screens that has one big screen and they just crop out the top and the bottom part.
John:
And that's why it doesn't bend in half because it can't bend in half.
John:
And once one screen that's larger, like if you look at it, like the top and bottom screens aren't even the same size.
John:
So if there's one big rectangular screen, that's the width of the top screen.
John:
They're just hiding part of it with the plastic surrounding parts, you know, and they're hiding, of course, the middle part as well.
John:
And it seems like that might be more expensive, but I can also imagine it being cheaper.
Yeah.
John:
I don't know if that's true, but that would also explain why the thing doesn't fold.
John:
And the final reason it doesn't fold is it looks kind of more like a tablet form factor.
John:
Like you can kind of squint and think of it as kind of like an iPad mini with like handles and controls on the sides.
John:
But then they put this thing on that makes it look like it's a top screen and bottom screen.
John:
And all this saved them 40 bucks retail.
John:
which is not really that much, but it's a pretty significant amount.
John:
If you think of, like, if you had a Consumer Electronics product and someone told you, okay, we want this to run all the same games and be a good product, but you have to take $40 out of it.
John:
You'd be like, $40?
John:
How the hell do I get $40 out of it?
John:
I'm already using a plastic for the case.
John:
I can't really get that much money out for the chips and stuff.
John:
Like, maybe I can save a few bucks here and there if they have a die shrink of them or something.
John:
Maybe we can combine some chips and save a buck.
John:
But $40?
John:
How are we going to get $40 of value out of this handheld?
John:
And this is what it took to get $40 out of it.
John:
So it's cheaper.
John:
It plays 3DS games in 2D.
John:
It may be one big screen underneath the covers.
John:
They move the controls around a little bit.
John:
I don't think it's as ridiculous a product as everyone's making it out to be.
John:
I've...
John:
Looked at it, and I've seen especially the video that Casey put in that he said is an embarrassing video.
John:
And, you know, come on, everyone can't make Apple quality videos, right?
John:
But look at the size of the device and how it kind of zips up into the little bag.
John:
I would buy this for my kid if he wanted to play handheld games.
John:
And I think the kid would like it and enjoy playing games on it.
John:
And that's what game machines are supposed to be for.
John:
And I think Nintendo would actually make money selling them because they have, it seems, found a way to take some value, take some, not take some value, but take some cost out of the manufacturing process and lower the price while still making a profit.
John:
So I have to give this kind of a tentative thumbs up.
John:
What do you guys think?
Casey:
I don't know.
Casey:
So I haven't played console video games with any regularity in like 10 years.
Casey:
We only have a Wii in the house, which is on only occasionally and usually only for Rock Band, John Judge Away.
Casey:
I saw the pictures of the 2DS and I saw the ridiculous video for the 2DS.
Casey:
And the fact that it doesn't have a hinge just looks and feels wrong to me.
Casey:
It just looks like it's clearly something that was designed originally to have a hinge and now doesn't.
Casey:
And the thing that really kind of confuses me is that now you've taken a device that we think is designed for children and people with perhaps smaller hands and smaller bodies, and now you've made it bigger because it can never fold in half.
John:
But did you see how big it is?
John:
I don't know if it's that much bigger.
John:
Like, it's still pretty darn tiny.
John:
Look at it next to that little kid who zips it up into his little carrying case.
John:
It is small.
Casey:
Are we talking about the video?
John:
Yeah, look at the video.
John:
Like, it's hard.
John:
When you see it just by itself, you think it looks like, you know, some gigantic, like, I don't know.
John:
But, like, look at it next to the, like, it's probably like a toddler putting it away.
John:
It is still small.
John:
I think it's still a reasonable size for a kid to tuck in his backpack to go on a car trip to have something to play in the car or on vacation or something.
John:
I don't think it's too big.
Casey:
It's certainly not huge, but maybe it's me.
Casey:
I don't get the way – it looks like it's supposed to have a hinge and it just doesn't.
Casey:
Like they forgot it rather than they designed it out.
John:
See, the thing with the one with the hinge is a lot of 3DS games, like, there's shoulder buttons on it as well.
John:
There's face buttons, shoulder buttons, and you've got the analog stick and the D-pad, and you've also got a stylus for the bottom touchscreen.
John:
And some games try to use, like, all those controls at once.
John:
And, like, famously, I think it was the Pilotwings.
John:
Chatroom can tell me...
John:
Not Pilotwings.
John:
Kid Icarus.
John:
Whatever the Kid Icarus game for the 3DS.
John:
Come on, chat room.
John:
Wait for the delay to go.
John:
Anyway, there was one game that Nintendo came out with that required you to use the styles at the same time as the analog stick at the same time as the shoulder button.
John:
And the game came with a little plastic stand thing because...
John:
Nintendo recognized that trying to manipulate the machine in this manner while also supporting it is actually very difficult.
John:
So find a table, use this special plastic stand to prop it up into the right position, and then you can play our game.
John:
And that's kind of a failure of, like, game design and hardware design.
John:
Like, it's kind of ungainly to be trying to be holding, like, basically a little miniature laptop that folds open, a little clamshell thing, while using all these controls all over it and sometimes using a stylus and everything.
John:
Uh...
John:
I think the tablet form factor gives a better grip on the overall thing, like the fact that it's just one big solid piece instead of some floppy thing.
John:
The chat room says Kid Icarus Uprising was the game, so I was close.
John:
I think that form factor may actually be better.
John:
Unfortunately, it's probably worse for some games that were designed around the clamshell factor, because some games, like someone was saying that Metroid Prime Hunter is like...
John:
it's going to be very difficult to play that game because it was designed around the position of the controls or the folding game where the controls were lower down, nearer to the touchscreen, and now they're sort of slid up.
John:
But I think overall, it will probably feel more secure in your hands, this one piece, instead of having that strange hinge thing at various angles.
John:
So again, I don't think this is necessarily a loser product, and I think they might sell a lot of them.
Casey:
And actually, I'm now looking at an image of what appears to me to be the 2DS, what was the non-3D1, the DS, and the 3DS?
Marco:
And you're right, I didn't realize... I believe that's 2DS, 3DS, and 3DS XL.
John:
Yeah, there's also the DSi, which is the same size as the DSi.
John:
And there was the old DS before they redesigned it.
John:
Put it in the chat room or something so we can.
Casey:
That's where I got it from.
Casey:
It was from.
John:
Is it a joystick one?
Marco:
No, MediaLib.
Casey:
It's from Alex Sabinski.
Marco:
Yep.
Casey:
So anyway, whatever it is I'm looking at, compared to that monstrosity on the right, it actually doesn't look that big at all.
John:
That's the XL, and that's the one I would buy, by the way, because it's made closer for adult hands.
Casey:
So that's designed to be a monstrosity?
Casey:
I'm not trying to be funny.
John:
The whole point of that one is to be larger for older people who have trouble seeing, and it costs a little more because you have a bigger screen.
John:
But if you're an adult, you don't want to have your hands on those.
Marco:
Yeah, but you're the only adult wanting to buy a 3DS.
John:
Well, I don't.
John:
I already have one.
John:
I don't play handheld games at all because they're terrible for RSI.
John:
Oh, yeah.
John:
You can't make a really ergonomic controller when the controller is also the game system and the screen and has to be portable.
John:
So I understand the compromises there, and I kind of miss out on some of the games that I would like to play.
John:
Like, I wish...
John:
What is it?
John:
Gravity Rush?
John:
I've got to ask the chat room again to confirm my memory is failing.
John:
But anyway, there's a game for the Vita that I really love to play, but I'm not going to buy a handheld gaming system to play it, and I keep hoping it would come out for the PS3 or something.
Casey:
Wasn't there some third-party or maybe it was first-party box that you could get way back in the day to play original Game Boy games on a TV?
John:
Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of products like that.
John:
And I keep hoping that there will be some kind of product or maybe the virtual console games where 3DS only games will someone says it's pronounced Vita.
John:
What did I say?
Casey:
I thought that's what you said.
Casey:
Is that Vita?
John:
I don't know.
John:
I'm not going to say Vita.
John:
Anyway, yeah, I keep hoping that these games that I've been missing on handhelds will eventually come to a system that I can play, you know, somehow on my television holding a slightly more ergonomic controller in more comfort.
Casey:
So you're saying that tentative thumbs up for the system.
Casey:
Is that fair?
John:
Yeah.
John:
I mean, it's kind of sad that Nintendo has to go to these lengths.
John:
This is not a power move.
John:
This is not like, oh, we're on top of the world and now we're so successful that we can do this.
John:
This is kind of like, look, the Wii U is doing really badly.
John:
The 3DS has actually kind of picked up in recent years.
John:
you know, years and it's not, you know, that has a chance for some growth.
John:
What can we do to get more money out of the part of our business actually is successful.
John:
Maybe we make a cheaper version around holiday time.
John:
People more likely to buy it for their kids, uh, because their kid wants an iPad mini, but we can't afford that.
John:
So we're going to buy $130, uh,
John:
3DS or 2DS.
John:
And honestly, I think that 2DS, like, the games that are available for the DS, because it plays any DS game plus any 3DS game.
John:
So there's a huge game library available for this.
John:
And I would put the game library that that thing can play up against, like, seven App Store game libraries.
John:
Not that there aren't great games in the App Store, but the depth of game available on that device and the type of gameplay experiences that you can have with buttons and shoulder buttons and sticks and a touchscreen and a stylus and all that other stuff...
John:
just puts the iOS gaming experience to shame.
John:
Like, so I would be totally comfortable buying this less expensive device.
John:
Now, granted, the games are going to cost you more or whatever, but there's less expensive device and like two games and the kid's stocking for Christmas.
John:
And I think even though the kid wanted an iPad mini, if he's the right age and he is a gamer, he would be much happier with this device.
John:
So two very sore thumbs up.
Casey:
Yeah, pretty much.
Casey:
Real-time follow-up.
Casey:
Prihinra in the chat room says it was a Super Game Boy for Super Nintendo that I was thinking of, which it was.
Casey:
Oh, yeah.
Casey:
So then, John, you kind of started down this road and then backed away.
Casey:
What do you think this means as a barometer for the health of Nintendo and their power in the marketplace?
Casey:
I mean, it's certainly, like you said, doesn't seem like this was the move of the king.
Casey:
It seems like it was the move of the competitor almost.
Casey:
So, I mean, how does this make you feel as a Nintendo fan?
John:
Yeah, I think that it's a good thing Nintendo made all that money during the Wii era because now their rainy day fund, it's now time for them to start using it.
John:
And I think they do have some breathing room to regroup.
John:
Doing these type of moves is like, okay, let's shore up the dam while we try to regroup.
John:
And I really hope they are regrouping because they have some breathing room.
John:
They made tons of money with the success of the Wii.
John:
The Wii U is tanking.
John:
They have to decide, are we going to try to recover the Wii U?
John:
They already did price drop on that.
John:
What did they drop?
John:
They dropped the good one, the one that you really want, from like $350 to $300.
John:
So that's a good move, too.
John:
The reboot, the HD remake of Wind Waker, which appeals to old people, is going to be available early in digital-only form.
John:
That's also a good move.
John:
Like when you have an important popular title that you know people are going to want, release it early in digital form to sort of reward people who don't want to go to the store and buy a disc.
John:
I think the digital one might also be a little bit cheaper.
John:
So those are good moves, but are they going to stick it out with the Wii U?
John:
Are they going to rev the Wii U way before everyone else revs?
John:
Because there's no PS5 or an Xbox.
John:
We don't want anyone to think of the name.
John:
Those aren't coming out for many, many, many years.
John:
But Nintendo could...
John:
you know, produce a new console in the next two years.
John:
Is that, is that their reboot plan or the, you know, surely they're not going to stick with the Wii U for eight years, uh, eight years from now, we pull out this podcast and play it back to me.
John:
Uh, like, I don't even think that's, you know what I mean?
John:
So I would like to know what their strategy is, but I think they have a little bit of breathing room.
John:
And I think these types of moves are like, while we're figuring out what we're going to do, uh,
John:
Let's see what we can do to get a little bit more money out of these good areas.
John:
I mean, a lot of their problem could just be software.
John:
Maybe that's their strategy to regroup, and we really need to be firing on all cylinders with first-party software.
Casey:
Well, to that end, are we going to see Zelda and Mario in the App Store anytime soon?
John:
I hope not.
John:
People keep saying that.
John:
I mean, Gruber said it today.
John:
Like, they should just start selling for the iOS store.
John:
Like...
John:
i whether or not that's like i don't think that would be good long-term business strategy for nintendo the company but as a consumer as someone who plays nintendo games i would not like that at all because the thing i love about nintendo is that they make hardware and software combined they make a complete gaming experience they tailor their hardware to fit the software they want to buy what they want to make and no one else does that to the degree they do and i love their games and i would not want to play their games on a touch screen
Casey:
Well, but you're assuming it's a touchscreen.
John:
Or with any of those little controller things that Apple now supports.
John:
It's not the same thing.
John:
I don't think they should do that.
John:
Nintendo doesn't think they should do that.
John:
I don't think that would make anybody happy.
John:
It would turn them into Sega, where it's like, oh, right, well, Sega's out of the hardware business.
John:
I guess we'll just make games now.
John:
And, you know, people are not excited about Sega games, even though they are available.
John:
Aren't Sega games available on iOS?
John:
I'm pretty sure.
John:
Yeah, a lot of them are.
John:
Like, who cares?
John:
And they're mostly terrible.
John:
Who cares?
John:
Nobody cares.
John:
Whereas, even as Nintendo fails, if they make a really good Zelda game for the Wii U, it will make a lot of people very happy.
John:
Even if it doesn't make Nintendo a lot of money.
John:
So I'm one of those people who wants Nintendo to keep being Nintendo, and I would be willing to have the Japanese government subsidize them to make them keep making it happen.
Marco:
I'm actually with you on that.
Marco:
I think people calling for Nintendo to just make stuff for iOS is a lot like people who used to call for Apple to just license Mac OS to PC hardware.
Marco:
Yeah, it's exactly the same thing.
Marco:
Obviously, Nintendo makes a lot of money on their hardware, and that's the business they're in.
Marco:
Licensing their games to other platforms would be really giving up, and it would probably lead to a dramatic shrinking of the company and probably a lot of ruining of what's best about them.
Marco:
The question is, Apple avoided that by finding another way out of their predicament.
Marco:
The question is, can Nintendo do that?
John:
Well, Nintendo's weathered a lot of ups and downs.
John:
Like the Nintendo 64 was the beginning.
John:
Nintendo 64 and the GameCube were another pretty big deep trough.
John:
We're like, oh, we're totally counting Nintendo out.
John:
And then they came in and over with the Wii.
John:
And now it's like a roller coaster.
John:
So now they're on their way back down again.
John:
How far down is this going to go before they make U-turn again?
John:
Again, I think they're protected by their patience, by their determination, and by the mountains of money.
John:
That they make during the high periods that they presumably spend wisely.
John:
Like I don't think they they don't spend money extravagantly.
John:
They don't have humongous staffs.
John:
They are fairly conservative with what they spend, what their burn rate is.
John:
So I'm hoping they can weather the storm and come out the other side.
Marco:
All right, and with that, let's wrap it up for the week.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to our two sponsors this week, wordboxapp.com, that's the app Wordbox, and Notograph, notograph.net slash ATP.
Marco:
And we'll see you next week.
Marco:
Now the show is over.
Marco:
They didn't even mean to begin.
Marco:
Cause it was accidental.
Marco:
Oh, it was accidental.
Marco:
John didn't do any research.
Marco:
Margo and Casey wouldn't let him.
Marco:
Cause it was accidental.
Marco:
Oh, it was accidental.
Marco:
And you can find the show notes at atp.fm.
Marco:
And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
Casey:
So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T-M-A-R-C-O-R-M-N-S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A-C-U-S-A
Casey:
What kind of weird reality are we in where I was agreeing with you, Marco, about enterprise-y related things?
John:
Well, you're the two PC users, so you still have that infection coursing through your veins in trace amounts.
Casey:
I don't even know how to argue with you on that one.
Casey:
You're probably right.
Casey:
I'm surprised you're so happy about the 2DS.
John:
I'm not happy about the state of Nintendo's in, but I don't think the product deserves the, you know, the ridiculous game.
John:
Like, it's not attractive looking either.
John:
There's many things against it.
John:
It's embarrassing kind of joke name.
John:
It's not attractive looking.
John:
It looks ungainly and awkward, but...
John:
I think it's an okay product.
John:
And like I said, there's seven DS products that I think you can buy now.
John:
I think you can still buy the DS.
John:
Then there's the 3DS.
John:
Then there's the 3DS XL.
John:
Then there's the DSi.
John:
Then there's the 2DS.
John:
What the hell is the DSi?
John:
They added a letter.
John:
I think that's the one with more internet connectivity and extra cameras and...
John:
There's a whole bunch of like, they have tons of products.
Marco:
Do they still suck at internet and social things or have they gotten better at that?
John:
Nope.
John:
They still suck.
Okay.
John:
They still suck.
Casey:
That sounds right.
John:
They have gotten better though.
John:
You can't say they haven't gotten better, but they are still pretty crappy.
John:
And like part of it is that philosophy of like protecting kids.
John:
And you know, like a lot of the things they do are to avoid what happened on the Xbox.
John:
Like, Hey, Xbox, the Xbox live does it the best, but it's also the place where you go and will immediately be bombarded by teenagers and
John:
saying racist and homophobic things to you.
John:
And God forbid if you're a female, right?
John:
So Nintendo does not have that problem for the most part and has avoided it by keeping people away from each other.
John:
You know what I mean?
John:
Keep them separated.
John:
And now they're slowly trying to allow some kind of interaction on a trusted basis.
John:
And, you know, they're trying to avoid becoming Xbox Live, basically.
Marco:
Which is sad because Xbox Live is, you know, with the exception of the 10-year-olds swearing at you and calling you horrible names, it's actually very successful in all other ways.
John:
Yeah, no, it is the best gaming.
John:
It is the best one.
John:
And yeah, it suffers from all those terrible ailments, but everyone's like, who is doing console online best?
John:
It's not Sony and it's not Nintendo, it's Microsoft.
John:
But Microsoft also, in typical fashion, like, is that the price of good online that you have to deal with jerks?
John:
I'm not sure it's the price of it, but like...
John:
Nintendo and Sony were just mostly incompetent.
John:
They had people who made games.
John:
Sony has less of an excuse, but Nintendo was like, look, they had a bunch of people who make games, a bunch of people who make hardware, and then all of a sudden they're expected to make network services.
John:
They must have had to hire people to do that.
John:
Do we have anyone who knows how to run a server here?
John:
A what?
John:
That's been the past many, many years.
John:
But they are getting better, and they're slowly learning, but they're doing it very cautiously.
John:
I remember one of their first forays was you had to have friend codes, which was like this nine-digit number or something that you would exchange.
John:
Because that way, you couldn't accidentally see somebody who would say something terrible to you or try to abduct you or whatever.
John:
It was so hard to connect with somebody.
John:
The only people who would ever connect would be like you and your best friend after six tries.
John:
Did anybody actually ever do that?
John:
I did.
Casey:
We played Mario Kart Wii over the internet against friends of ours.
Casey:
And this was shortly after Mario Kart Wii came out.
Casey:
And I was on Fios and my friend was on a...
Casey:
reasonably quick Comcast connection, and it was a total disaster.
John:
But that's not friend codes.
John:
That was the better iteration.
John:
Friend codes were back, I think, the DS, someone in the chat room will tell me, but it was before the Wii were the friend codes.
John:
Oh, my apologies.
John:
The Barocard Wii was like, that was the improved version.
John:
Now see how much easier it is for you.
John:
Oh, that was god-awful.
John:
I know, but it was still better.
John:
They've been slowly making it slightly better and more possible to do, but...
John:
uh they're a long way from it just being a free-for-all and i think that's probably like the the wii u has a lot of things where people can scrawl notes to each other and they must have like a fleet of people or like amazon mechanical turk or something like filtering out all the penis drawings and stuff because it's just like someone it's got to be moderated like because when you if you go to a certain level and you and you you die and you fall in a pit in a mario game it'll be like you'll get to see a little message from somebody who keeps dying there too and it's always something nice like oh i keep dying here like it's not like curses or vulgar drawings or whatever so someone must be filtering all them out
John:
And I would not want that job.
Casey:
No, definitely not.
Marco:
So our friend Ben Thompson, who we were talking about at the very top of the show, is in the chat room, username MonkBent, and he's asking me my thoughts on the new Microsoft – oh, God, how many words are in this title?
Marco:
The Microsoft Sculpt Ergonomic Desktop Keyboard.
Marco:
It was the successor to the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000.
Marco:
Yeah, Microsoft doesn't have any problems.
Marco:
No, they have the worst names of anything in the industry, especially their non-critical products, like all the side stuff.
Marco:
Oh, it gets terrible names.
John:
I think Nintendo gives them a run for their money.
Marco:
New Super Mario Bros.
Marco:
Wii.
Marco:
Fair enough.
Marco:
But yeah, so far – we should talk about Jeff Atwood's keyboard too.
Marco:
This is pretty cool.
Marco:
The code keyboard, you saw this?
Casey:
I saw that.
Casey:
I don't understand what makes it cool other than some dip switches on the bottom.
John:
I can tell you what makes it cool and what makes it a PC user's keyboard.
John:
What makes it cool is that it's a single person's vision for what a keyboard should be.
John:
So that is something that I think Apple fans can get behind.
John:
Regardless of what the product is, this is a single person's vision.
John:
Like he knew exactly what he wanted and he made a keyboard that I bet in every aspect of this is presumably exactly how Jeff Atwood wanted it.
John:
And so that is, there is a certain, you know, attraction to that.
Marco:
And he's really like, he's like a nerd's nerd too.
Marco:
Like Jeff Atwood is like exactly the kind of guy you would want to design a keyboard if you're a nerd.
John:
And you may not like what his decisions are, but there's, you know, that's the Apple fans can totally get behind this.
John:
Like it's, it's an interesting product because it is a singular vision.
John:
Uh,
John:
But his singular vision is for a keyboard that looks and behaves like that code keyboard, which is not to my taste at all.
John:
I mean, I don't think it's even to Marco's taste because he likes the split keyboard, right?
John:
So this is not split because he didn't want that, right?
John:
This has big keys with long throws and clicky key caps, which I used to like, but now I don't.
John:
Now I need a very light pressure, short throws, like, you know, for RSI reasons or whatever.
John:
Like scissor keys.
John:
Yeah.
John:
So it's not a keyboard that I...
John:
would ever buy or be interested in i i don't think it's attractive looking either i think it looks like a pc keyboard because it is a pc keyboard even though you can rewire it for the control key i don't think the the text on the keycaps looks nice you know it's totally does not appeal to me but the idea of it definitely appeals to me and if you want it if your interests and keyboard tastes align with jeff atwoods then this is the one to get because some guy went out there and made something happen that you know
John:
that you could not have made on your own, you would have been like, well, which one of these 17 keyboards do I want?
John:
I can't really decide.
John:
But it's like, this guy cut through all the fat and made the keyboard that he wanted to make and now is selling it to you.
John:
So it's a very appealing product, but I don't think I would ever buy it.
John:
And I'm assuming Marco would say the same.
Marco:
Yeah, I think...
Marco:
Jeff and the other people involved, but it looks like it's mainly Jeff on the design and concept side, they've made a really – what appears to be – I haven't tried it yet, but it appears to be a really good implementation of the same old keyboard we've been using forever.
Marco:
And to a lot of people, that's exactly what they're looking for.
Marco:
It's going to appeal a lot to the people who are still holding on to IBM Model M's or who try to find them on eBay because it's like the keyboard.
Marco:
If you want the standard key layout that's been around forever and you want a really good implementation of that,
John:
uh then this is the one for you because it has everything that geeks love it has the cherry mx key switches the big like you know clicky loud ones that are that have great feedback well these are the quiet ones the cherry are quiet or quieter oh right right that's an aspect that he wants he likes the click keys but didn't like the you know calamitous noise that some of them make so the cherry clear ones are here's a whole big keyboard post about the different color of cherry key switches but right fair enough
Marco:
But yeah, so it's a very good implementation of the same keyboard that's been around forever.
Marco:
My dream keyboard... So I got this Microsoft many, many words ergonomic sculpt keyboard.
Marco:
And so far, I've only had it for half of today.
Marco:
So obviously, this is not any kind of long-term impression.
Marco:
So far, I think it's pretty good.
Marco:
But...
Marco:
They chose to use scissor keys on it, just like laptop keyboards and all of Apple's recent keyboards.
Marco:
So it's like the short throw, flat top scissor switch on the bottom.
Marco:
And it's not mushy like the old dome switch.
Marco:
I mean, not dome, the old membrane one was.
Marco:
It's not mushy like that, because that was the problem with the original Natural 4000, the predecessor to this one, was that it had just the mushiest, crappiest keys.
Marco:
And this one has decent scissor keys on it.
Marco:
I would say probably as good as any Apple laptop keyboard recently, possibly even a little bit better, a little bit springier or firmer, I guess.
Marco:
So I like the keys so far.
Marco:
I haven't typed full-time on a scissor keyboard in a very long time, so I don't know if it's going to be better or worse for potential RSI issues for me, but I'm hoping it'll be the same just by the layout.
Marco:
It should be all right.
Marco:
So
Marco:
We'll see about that.
Marco:
But my dream keyboard doesn't exist.
Marco:
My dream keyboard, the way I envision it today, is basically this keyboard with Jeff Atwood's key switches.
Marco:
And that, as far as I know, does not exist.
Marco:
And everybody always recommends this one keyboard.
Marco:
It's called Truly Ergonomic.
Marco:
Here, I'll paste the link in the chat.
Marco:
Everybody always recommends this and they say, why haven't you tried this?
Marco:
Oh my God.
Marco:
And the reason why I haven't tried that is because of that ridiculous layout that it has.
Marco:
I really do not like ergonomic keyboards that have weird custom layouts.
Marco:
And this one is, you know, as weird layouts go, it's kind of moderate.
Marco:
Like it's not, it doesn't go,
Marco:
totally crazy like the kinesis advantage but it's uh it's kind of in the middle between regular keyboards and that uh so it's very very strange and i don't like those kind of layouts because that involves a very high learning curve and uh and it makes it a little bit difficult to go between different computers and and i frequently have to use
Marco:
a laptop here and there, or Tiff's computer here and there, or someone else's computer here and there, and so I really like having just one standard keyboard layout that my fingers know and are accustomed to, and that's it.
Marco:
I also think the truly ergonomic one doesn't have the right shape.
Marco:
It's not...
Marco:
See, what makes the Microsoft keyboards great is they have this giant hump in the middle, and then it curves down from there, and they have this great negative tilt where the keyboard actually tilts slightly away from you in the, I guess, relatively vertical direction from you.
Marco:
It tilts away from you so that it's extremely comfortable.
Marco:
And in theory, I don't know how many studies have proven this, in theory, it should be very, very good for RSI prevention.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
Microsoft has a great way of making those keyboards with the best shape and the most usable layouts.
Marco:
But so far, the Natural 4000 was this giant, ugly boat with mushy keys, and the new Sculpt ergonomic desktop keyboard is way better looking.
Marco:
I mean, you could tell... I've already started writing my review just of my initial impressions, and it's so obvious, like,
Marco:
You look at the Natural 4000, and you look at – if you do a Google image search for Dell Dimension 2005, you will see that's what PCs looked like in 2005 when the Natural 4000 was designed.
Marco:
And the Natural 4000 looks just like the PCs of the day.
Marco:
By today's standards, it looks ridiculous.
Marco:
and not in a good way and so the the new the new microsoft sculpt blah blah blah um is quite good it looks nice the keys feel pretty good um i like it better than the kinesis um freestyle 2 for mac which i was using for the last year um i like it better than that and i think it'll be okay my one reservation is on the the key type and it being scissor keys i'm a little bit worried about that i think the key to getting any kind of rsi benefit out of scissor keys is you can't hit them as hard like
John:
Right.
John:
The whole point of them is that they activate easier, but it doesn't mean that people actually don't hit them as hard because people get into the habit of just pressing as hard as they used to have to press.
John:
And that's actually hard, especially when you get like, you know, when you get going, you get a big head of steam, you may find yourself hitting the keys as hard as you used to have to hit like your machine keyboard or whatever you used before.
John:
And that's that's the habit to try to break.
John:
That's what I've had to do.
Marco:
Right, exactly.
Marco:
It actually helped a lot.
Marco:
The Kinesis Freestyle 2 that I've been using for about the last year has extremely light-pressed key switches for that reason.
Marco:
It's not scissor keys, but it's very, very light-pressed regular keys.
Marco:
And so I've kind of gotten used to that, I think.
Marco:
So we'll see.
John:
Yeah, and that's one of the reasons I like.
John:
I'm using the app aluminum keyboard now.
John:
Since I don't type correctly, I have extreme difficulty with any layout changes because I'm using the wrong hands and the wrong keys.
John:
I'm doing everything wrong, right?
John:
So split keyboards paralyze me because I can't use them.
John:
But what I try to do is do everything I can within a standard layout, which means very light key presses, but also get it to slope away from me.
John:
Remember keyboards used to come with kickstands in the back?
John:
It was just torturing yourself.
John:
The more you tilt it up, the worse it is.
Marco:
Even the Natural 4000 for some reason came with those.
Marco:
I don't know why.
Marco:
Like the Natural 4000, it has this big stand you can put on the front lip that lifts it to get the negative tilt.
Marco:
But you don't have to put it on.
Marco:
And it had these giant stands in the back.
Marco:
So you could set up your perfectly awesome natural keyboard to be terrible for you.
Marco:
yeah people people expect it i know this one the um the the clip-on front prop thing is still optional although now it's magnetically attached so it's much cooler um but there's no more rear stands those are just gone so you can't set this up as terribly as you could the other one yeah so i'd say for people who have keyboards in there start off with just trying to make it level like let's start with that because almost every keyboard including the apple aluminum has some kind of tilt in the wrong direction where like
John:
You know, if you put a marble on it, it would roll downhill into your lap.
John:
You want to try making it level.
John:
Just start with that.
John:
And you can do that by propping it.
John:
You can do that by if you have an adjustable keyboard tray, just tilting that or whatever.
John:
And maybe you don't have to go negative with it, but, you know, small changes can make a big difference over a long period of time.
Marco:
Yeah, John, I would say, you know, given what you've just said, I think you might want to try this keyboard.
John:
It is split.
John:
I can't do split.
John:
Have you ever tried, really, like, given it, like, a real solid try?
John:
I've never given it more than a week, but a week has been enough so many times.
John:
Because I just have bad, terrible habits that are not compatible with a split keyboard layout.
John:
And the thing is, like, rather than adapting, I adapt my bad habits to it.
John:
I end up crossing over.
John:
Like...
John:
I'll find myself doing that, and then I find all I'm doing is honing my increasingly terrible crossover habits on a split keyboard.
Marco:
Well, this one actually has a physical gap between the two halves.
Marco:
If you wanted to, you could stick a DVD case in that gap upright to block you from crossing over if you wanted to train it.
John:
Yeah, I think they would not.
John:
Some of the chat rooms suggesting I learned Vorak, the person next to me at work, does that.
John:
Aside from being a mild security through obscurity hack, because whenever he leaves his computer unattended, it's more difficult for me to screw with it because I can't find what the same keys are.
John:
Because, of course, the keycaps are all QWERTY.
John:
Yeah, now I'm probably past the point where I can learn new keyboard layouts or new keyboard shapes.
John:
But who knows?
John:
Typing is really not...
John:
I don't think that's my biggest issue.
John:
I think my hand positioning and stuff like that is not as bad as it used to be.
John:
So just going flatter and getting the keyboard at the right height is like 90% of the problem was for me anyway, I think for most people.
John:
Because most people have their keyboard way too high and tilted up.
Marco:
Honestly, I really do think you should try this, even with the DVD case hack if you need to.
Marco:
Obviously, you probably have a more severe problem than I did, but I was starting to get RSI-like symptoms back about a year into my first job after college because I was just constantly on the computer and constantly on bad keyboards.
Marco:
I changed the keyboard, and that was the number one helping thing, by far.
John:
The number one helping thing is typing less.
John:
That is the number one thing.
John:
I think you probably made that adjustment because that's when I had my problems was when I had no life and no kid.
John:
And I was just on the computer from the moment I woke up until the moment I went to sleep, whether I was working or not, constantly typing.
John:
And that's what killed me.
John:
And when you have a more balanced life where you only type for certain periods of time and then do other things that don't involve typing for some portion of your waking hours, it's amazing things happen.
John:
No, I definitely didn't do that.
Marco:
I mean, I continued not to have a kid, not to have a life for about five years after that.
Marco:
With no changes, no reduction.
Marco:
In fact, probably an increase in computer use after that.
John:
Well, you are lucky because I could not do that no matter what I was using.
John:
Mouse, keyboard, any shape, anything.
John:
And also, my keyboard always used to be way too high.
John:
If I had to pick my number one thing that I did, it was...
John:
you know, once I crippled myself was put the keyboard lower.
John:
So that, that's where I felt my biggest change.
John:
Maybe I would have, I felt a similar increase if I had got a split as well, but if I had to split and kept it up high, I would have still been killing myself.
Casey:
So are we getting to the point then that in the same way that everyone was making T-shirts right before WWDC, is it going to be soon trendy to make your own keyboard?
Casey:
Is that going to be like the next big thing?
John:
I don't think that's something that regular people can do.
John:
I think you have to be Jeff Atwood to make that happen.
John:
And honestly, if I had to make my own... Or John Syracuse or Mark Orman.
John:
If I had to make my own keyboard, it would probably look a lot like the Apple Aluminum.
John:
I would just...
John:
Get those damn function keys away from my number keys.
John:
And because that's that thing kills me like, I know they want to make it as small as possible.
John:
But you know, they're the little dinky function keys being right up against the number keys.
John:
There's no reason for that.
John:
Like, for years and years, I was an Apple Extended 2 person, and I still have a nice collection of Apple Extended 2s upstairs.
John:
And that was my keyboard that I used right up until the point where I was, you know, crippled myself.
John:
And I still like that better.
John:
Like, I don't like scissor keys as much as the Apple Extended 2, but I recognize that the scissor keys are better for me.
John:
So, like, you know, they become more attractive because now when I think about having to hit those clicky keys, it feels good, but only for a short period of time, then it starts to feel worse.
Casey:
Plus, I thought your extended twos were your retirement plan, so you could sell them all to Gruber.
John:
Yeah, that's the plan now.
John:
My left control key, which is apparently the only control key I use because I don't type correctly, my left control key at work started sticking, and I tried to repair it.
John:
I've taken apart scissor keys many, many times, Apple scissor keycaps, and this was the first time I successfully reassembled it because those things are not easy to put back together.
John:
Yeah.
John:
Especially if they come apart and you have all the pieces loose and you don't remember how they went.
John:
Luckily, now they have YouTube videos and stuff to give you hints, but it is a very tricky process.
John:
Anyway, I got the key back together after cleaning it out, and it still stuck, so I got a new keyboard.
John:
That's one downside to scissor keys.
John:
You pretty much can't service them.
John:
You can.
John:
I was proud of myself.
John:
I was so excited.
John:
Now I feel like I could take off an Apple scissor key cap and put it back successfully after only 15 minutes of swearing.
Ha!
John:
But when I'm done, it will work like it did before.
John:
It won't be off kilter.
John:
If you look at it, such tiny little parts in there.
John:
It's amazing that the thing functions at all.
John:
It's extremely delicate, tiny, tiny little flanges and pins and stuff.
John:
But there's something else wrong with that.
John:
I don't know why it was sticking.
John:
I brought it home with me so I can bring it down to the lab and try dousing it in alcohol or running it through the dishwasher or all the other things I say you can do on the web to one of these keyboards.
John:
Wait, what else is in the lab?
John:
You know what I mean.
John:
It's like when the Grinch is going to take your Christmas tree to check the lights.
John:
So that's not an actual lab.