It Doesn’t Bother Me
Marco:
We are so over time.
John:
You're going to cut most of this out, though.
John:
Of course.
John:
You're doing better about cutting the crap at the end of the show.
Casey:
Yeah, thanks.
Casey:
I should point out that I am still fighting that cold off a little bit because when you get up at 5 in the morning to go get a phone when you're sick, it doesn't really help.
Casey:
So if I start hacking up along, just carry on and we'll get it in post.
Marco:
But at least the good news is you got your phone before I did by a little bit.
Marco:
Do you have your phone?
Marco:
Of course I do.
Casey:
God damn it, Marco.
Marco:
It came today.
Casey:
I hate you so much.
Casey:
I hate you so much right now.
Casey:
This is my one crowning moment to have something fancier than you, and you effing ruined it.
Marco:
You didn't even have it until the next episode of the show.
Casey:
All that waiting was for nothing.
Casey:
Oh, look at me.
Casey:
I'm Marco Armin.
Casey:
I'm going to go to Portland, and I'm still going to get my frigging phone before the next taping.
Casey:
I hate you so much.
Casey:
You make me so angry.
Marco:
Yeah, so I can say that if you woke up at 3 a.m.
Marco:
and placed the order on the moment you could place the order and didn't go to any stores, if you got one of the first batch, it probably arrived today or sometime close to today in the U.S.
Marco:
And I've heard from other people too that it's really easy to just go to a store now and just get one.
Marco:
It seems like the major supply constraints that everyone was so concerned about
John:
um it does seem to be applying to the gold one which is hilarious but uh not to the other ones it seems like you can pretty much go into any apple store you want to most of these days now and just get one as long as it's not gold yeah i want to know how many of each color they made and how many they shipped to the stores because lots of people were reporting in from apple stores about which colors sold out first and stuff but that information is not useful unless you tell us how many proportion wise of each color did you get
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
I mean, that was always the trick.
Marco:
Didn't Microsoft pull some kind of tricks like that with the Surface when it launched where they were bragging about how it sold out, but they didn't tell you how many they made or how many they shipped?
Marco:
And so it was like, oh, yeah, it's sold out of all of its inventory, but we didn't make a whole lot of them.
Casey:
Right.
Casey:
Now, for what it's worth at my Apple store, which is $4.
Casey:
arguably the middle of nowhere it's it's actually a fairly big store and um we they got i guess a handful of golds i i never got a clear answer but i did ask a couple people a couple employees and the impression i got was that they had roundabouts of five golds and that went almost immediately and so when i when i went i woke up at five and was at the store at 5 30 and
Casey:
Which was annoying because the local mall said they weren't opening until 6.
Casey:
And Apple and the mall both independently told me that on Friday when I was a big enough nerd to ask both of them about this.
Casey:
So anyway, so I'm loitering with a friend of mine, Eric, waiting for another friend of mine, Keith.
Casey:
And this is at 5.30.
Casey:
And then a security guard walks by.
Casey:
We were loitering at the edge of the mall.
Casey:
And the security guard walks by and says, hey, if you guys are waiting to get phones, you better go because they're lining up.
Casey:
And so the two of us were like, crap, and ran for it.
Casey:
And so I was 40 or 50 people back, I'd say.
Casey:
And almost immediately when they started doing the dance with the tickets or business cards, for lack of a better term.
Casey:
So what happens is they have a business card basically for every device they got in stock.
Casey:
And they go down the line and they give you a little card and that expedites.
Casey:
Figuring out what's going to happen when you actually get to the point of buying your phone.
Casey:
Well, they announced almost immediately that I think that as far as I know, they got zero non-space grays for Verizon and Sprint and T-Mobile.
Casey:
And I never heard any talk of any whites or golds for AT&T until later on when I asked what the situation was.
Casey:
And they said they got a handful of golds.
Casey:
So I waited in line from 5.30 on.
Casey:
I got my phones, both Aaron's and mine, at 8 or 9-ish.
Casey:
And I was reveling in this moment, thinking I would be the only one with the fancy new phone for this recording.
Casey:
And then everything was ruined.
John:
So based on that story and your story anyway, it's not that gold was super popular.
John:
It's that there was like no gold phones.
Yeah.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
John:
Because surely there's going to be five people in a line of 100 people who want gold, and then they're all sold out.
John:
It's like, boy, is everyone buying gold?
John:
No, it seems like they're not.
Casey:
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Casey:
Although, did you see the story that somebody posted about the woman going berserk about not getting a gold?
John:
Yeah, and that also reported five gold iPhones.
John:
Five of any variety of any product seems crazy for an Apple store.
John:
No matter how small the Apple store is, there should be more than five of everything.
Marco:
I mean it does seem like – the story came out at like right after the first day of sale.
Marco:
The story came out that Apple was apparently ordering more of the gold ones, like increasing their orders for gold ones from their suppliers.
Marco:
I think it's probably safe to assume based on what we've heard about stock relative levels that they really did not make a lot of golds.
Marco:
And I think – you can ask yourself whether they thought that they wouldn't sell very well.
Marco:
I think that's charitable.
Marco:
I think obviously this was a move that they made so that everyone would know that the golds were in short supply.
Marco:
And so when they introduced this new color for the first time, and it's hard to get, and it's backordered.
Marco:
So it makes it more prestigious.
Marco:
It makes it more rare.
Marco:
I think it was a brilliant, intentional move.
John:
That seems kind of cynical.
John:
And also, like, I don't know if, you know, you want to make money.
John:
Like, you want to sell them.
John:
So if they could have sold more golds, wouldn't they have made more of them?
John:
It just seems, I don't think they've intentionally made fewer of them.
John:
Especially since, like, in the introduction video, like, the introduction of the 5S was that, you know, the liquid gold CG thing forming into the phone shape.
John:
Like, that was their pitch.
Yeah.
John:
Like, you know, if you're going to lead with that, surely you know you're creating, you're sort of artificially creating more demand for gold.
John:
And then you're going to intentionally not capitalize that by giving each Apple store five gold phones.
John:
Maybe they just couldn't create, you know, that many more phones.
John:
Or maybe their projections changed and they didn't have time to ramp up.
John:
Like, I think it was the iFixit site that...
John:
Well, maybe it was just the CPU.
John:
I think it was in the iPhysica site they said this something was manufactured in July.
John:
And I don't know if they meant the whole phone or just the part of the phone.
John:
But the point is they've been doing this production ramp for a while now.
John:
So maybe in the beginning they either didn't have gold at all or didn't think gold was going to sell very well.
John:
And so, you know, those...
John:
factories are cranking away churning out phones for weeks and weeks and possibly even months and months before the launch date and then at some point in there they either decide to have gold at all or do some market research or something or see the hype on the internet and figure out boy we should make more of these gold than we thought but it was too late for launch day to do that so apple will never tell us how many gold they made
John:
And we'll never get color breakdowns.
John:
And I assume that unless gold is like the old white iPhone, where it's like they had trouble manufacturing it, I assume the levels of the various colors will stabilize in time for the holidays.
John:
And anyone who wants any variety and any color they want will be able to get it by then.
Marco:
You know, on the other side of this, though, you have to look at a couple things.
Marco:
First of all, before I forget, there is a way to tell in software what the color of the phone is.
Marco:
There's some P-list key on, I believe, what's an unsupported method on UI device.
Marco:
So it would be hard to get...
Marco:
an app into the app store that reads that key, I think.
Marco:
But if for some reason their analyzer that scans for private APIs being called, if it does not catch that or if it does not prohibit that, then you could actually have some popular app or component maker run profiles and measure how many of each are out there.
Marco:
Anyway, so...
Marco:
Besides that, though, I think you can look at one other thing they did that was a little bit unusual this time to suggest that maybe this was planned to make people realize that this is still in high demand.
Marco:
And that is that you could preorder the 5C but not the 5S before its launch.
Marco:
The 5S, if you wanted to get a 5S on the first day it was available, you had to go stand online.
Marco:
And this is not the first time they've done this.
Marco:
I believe it was the iPhone 5, I believe, had the same thing where if you wanted an iPhone 5 on launch day, I believe you had to go get it in person.
Marco:
And because the Verizon iPhone 4, I believe, kind of slapped them in the face in that everyone expected there to be huge lines for the Verizon iPhone 4.
Marco:
Oh, no, so it was the 4S, my mistake.
Marco:
Everyone expected there to be huge lines for the iPhone 4 for Verizon, and there weren't.
Marco:
And it was like a huge thing in the press and in the blogs.
Marco:
Like, oh, my God, there weren't these huge lines.
Marco:
It was really kind of a non-launch because you could just order them online, and everyone just did that.
Marco:
So when the 4S came around six months later, however long it was, Apple said, no pre-orders.
Marco:
You have to go to the store.
Casey:
No, I pre-ordered my 4S.
Casey:
Well, our 4S is, yeah.
Marco:
Maybe I'm thinking of the iPad that came out at that time.
Marco:
I thought it was an iPad.
Marco:
It must be that.
Casey:
Because you're right.
Casey:
I think you're right about the Verizon iPhone 4.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
They were expecting these tremendous lines and didn't get them.
Casey:
And then I think the knee-jerk reaction or the cynical answers that the knee-jerk reaction was for whatever came next.
Casey:
And it was one of the iPads.
Marco:
I think it was the iPad 3 that came after that.
Casey:
The iPad 3, you could pre-order too as well.
Marco:
It doesn't really matter.
Marco:
It was something.
Marco:
Anyway, yeah.
Marco:
So the point is, the next big thing they released, whether it was an iPad or an iPhone, we can't remember, but the next big thing they released after that, there were no pre-orders.
Marco:
And, of course, then there were big lines.
Marco:
So I think this might be the same kind of thing.
Marco:
You know, Apple is very sensitive to the ongoing, and as they should be, they're very sensitive to the ongoing media narrative that they've lost their cool, they're going down, they can't innovate, no one wants their stuff anymore, etc.,
Marco:
And so by creating a big launch day line, big launch day hype, and this new hype around this gold color, I think they're fighting back against that perception.
John:
Well, not giving pre-orders doesn't reduce your number of sales.
John:
All it does is shift them.
John:
You're not foregoing those sales.
John:
You're just making those people go buy it at a store.
Marco:
Oh, sure.
Marco:
But then everyone knows.
Marco:
Then everyone knows who hears about lines in an Apple store or who drives past an Apple store that day and sees the lines or who sees people on stupid cable news channels that fly the helicopter near the line and say, look how big the line is, or they interview people on the line.
Marco:
That's...
Marco:
That all adds up, and that all adds up to a perception that Apple is still in demand and hip, and look how many of these phones they're selling.
John:
Yeah, but I was saying that's why I still don't think they intentionally made few gold phones, because then you do lose sales, right?
John:
Versus this strategy of just not providing pre-orders, you don't lose nearly as many sales, because you're just shifting them, mostly.
John:
I mean, some people just won't order at all on that first day, because they couldn't pre-order, and they couldn't get to the store.
John:
Fine.
John:
But, like...
John:
I can't see these people in the meeting saying, all right, we know we're going to create hype for the gold, but let's intentionally not make as many of those as we think they're going to have.
John:
In fact, let's give each Apple store like five of them and then give each Apple store like 150 of all the other colors.
John:
And it doesn't seem like something they would do.
John:
And they would say, well, why would we do that?
John:
Don't we want big opening weekend sales?
John:
Yeah, but all those people who want gold opening weekend, only five people per store are going to be able to get gold and literally only five people per store because we don't have pre-orders.
John:
It just seems like they didn't have enough gold to go around.
John:
I find that the more plausible explanation.
Marco:
What if this is actually kind of like an amplification of mania?
Marco:
What if there actually were more golds than we all thought, but everyone bought them because they heard they were running out of golds?
Yeah.
Marco:
And so it inflated them, and maybe everyone bought all the gold ones to sell them on eBay, or because they thought they wouldn't be able to get them.
Marco:
And so maybe they were a little bit less, but because of all the scalpers now trying to gobble them up, maybe that made them even more.
Marco:
The same way whenever there's a gas shortage, like a big storm comes in or something, and everyone goes out and fills up with gas because they're afraid there's a gas shortage, which causes a gas shortage.
Yeah.
Casey:
See, but I don't think that could be the case, though, because as the people were walking down the line at 5 or 7 o'clock in the morning, whatever it was on Friday, I can tell you that they had a stack of little cards for Space Gray 5Ss for AT&T.
Casey:
And there were just a handful of 64s, so I was very lucky to get one of those.
Casey:
If memory serves, there were a fairly decent number by the time it got to me of 32s, which is what Aaron got.
Casey:
And then there were like a handful of 16s as well.
Casey:
And so that was one person that was holding, I would say, 50 to 100 cards.
Casey:
Meanwhile, there were people walking around with like box fulls of cards of 5Cs.
Casey:
And one thing I wanted to ask was, who bought a 5C?
Casey:
Like I've seen 5Ss in the wild, mostly from friends who were like, oh, did you get the new phone?
Casey:
I got the new phone, blah, blah, blah.
Casey:
But I have yet to see a 5C in the wild.
Marco:
Well, the bigger question is, why did somebody line up to buy it?
John:
Yeah, who's going to line up for the 5C?
John:
No one's going to pre-order a 5C.
John:
No one's going to line up to buy the 5C.
John:
But a lot of people are going to get the 5C when their contracts are up and they're thinking of buying an iPhone and their choice is the cool, colorful one for less money or the fancy one with 64-bit something or other.
John:
That is $100 more, and they're not sure they can afford that one.
John:
I think the 5C will do fine, but it's not an early adopter product.
John:
It's not going to be the tech nerds, the people who are lining up, or the people who are pre-ordering.
Marco:
Well, for whatever it's worth, I was at the XOXO conference this past weekend, and so there were a whole lot of nerdy-type people there.
Marco:
And I did see two iPhone 5Cs.
Marco:
And this is only a handful of days after they came out.
Marco:
What color were they?
Marco:
One was white and one was green.
John:
All right, then.
Marco:
The white one was hard to spot.
Marco:
I looked at it, and I'm like, is that a 5C, or is it just a 5 with a case on it?
Marco:
But I looked closer, and it was indeed a 5C.
Marco:
And the green one was obvious, and the guy let me hold it and everything.
Marco:
It's actually really slick.
Marco:
I thought that it would be more of a matte finish, but it really is like an enamel, like a hard, slippery enamel.
Yeah.
Marco:
I was pretty impressed by how it felt.
Marco:
I didn't get a whole lot of time with it.
Marco:
I was impressed by how it felt physically, but it's just an iPhone 5.
Marco:
That being said, though, so I have my iPhone 5S now.
Marco:
I hate you.
Marco:
I know.
Marco:
And I've had it for, I don't know, about five hours maybe, so not a lot of time yet.
Marco:
I haven't been using it heavily yet.
Marco:
But...
Marco:
So far, it does seem kind of like it's a smaller upgrade in day-to-day feel.
Marco:
Part of that is because I never used a passcode before.
Marco:
So I'm trying now with Touch ID.
Marco:
So part of it is like I didn't get that big speed up of being able to bypass my passcode because I never really used one.
Marco:
And then part of that is that I haven't taken pictures yet.
Marco:
But I feel like the 5, since I was using it up until today and been using it with iOS 7 for a while, the 5 works fantastically on iOS 7.
Marco:
It really does.
Marco:
And we're getting to the point now, yes, the 5S is a nice improvement on paper and in benchmarks and in a few of these cool areas.
Marco:
But these phones are just so fast that...
Marco:
I think we're going to feel these improvements less and less.
Marco:
Even though, yeah, the CPU is like 50% faster or something like that in a lot of these tests or 100% faster in some of these tests.
Marco:
So it's really, really big on paper.
Marco:
But what we feel is not that big.
Marco:
In the same way that, yeah, my Mac Pro is 3.3 gigahertz.
Marco:
If the new one comes out and it's twice as much CPU performance as this one, which actually it probably won't be, unfortunately.
Marco:
But if it's twice as much CPU, let's say it's 50% more.
Marco:
I'm not likely to feel that in day-to-day usage.
Marco:
And so eventually you get to these points, these barriers where either it takes a while for the software to catch up or the software kind of never catches up for certain uses.
Marco:
And I think we're getting there in phones now where the reason why the 5C is going to sell very, very well is
Marco:
is not because it's really cool, new plastic design.
Marco:
That'll help a little bit.
Marco:
The reason it's going to sell really well is because it actually is good enough.
Marco:
It's actually a really good phone.
Marco:
The iPhone 5 is a really good phone, and it's still a really good phone, even with this brand new, radically redesigned OS that is presumably heavier to run than iOS 6.
Marco:
The 5 is still great.
Marco:
So I would not discount...
Marco:
sales of the 5C or the kinds of people who might buy them or the reasons they would buy them.
Marco:
Because I think you could make a pretty good case for the 5C being the new default phone that you tell people you should buy.
Casey:
So all of that may be true if you've upgraded from a 5.
Casey:
Those of us who are a little bit less spoiled and upgraded from a 4S, this is a whole new world for me.
Casey:
This is the first time I've experienced LTE, and it is amazing.
Casey:
So when we moved into this house in 2008, we were coming from a different town, and we knew we were going to get Fios.
Casey:
And Verizon Fios, for those who maybe aren't from the United States or don't have it nearby, it's fiber optics directly to the house.
Casey:
And at the time, in 2008, I was arguably more excited about getting files at my new domicile than I was about purchasing my first home.
Casey:
And at that point, we were getting 15 megabits symmetrical.
Casey:
So 15 megabits upload, 15 megabits download.
Casey:
On my phone, five years later, just earlier today, I think I got 40 megabits down and like 10 or 15 up.
Casey:
It's amazing.
Casey:
That in and of itself is worth upgrading from a 4S.
Casey:
On top of that, I didn't think that iOS 7 ran poorly on the 4S, but now that I've seen it on the 5S, I was so wrong.
Casey:
It runs phenomenally well on the 5S, and I didn't know it until I tried it, but it runs like crap on the 4S.
Casey:
And so animations are quicker.
Casey:
They don't get in the way.
Casey:
They're not jittery.
Casey:
Everything's better.
Casey:
The camera is also fantastic.
Casey:
I took I've taken a handful of slow motion videos.
Casey:
I was by pure dumb luck.
Casey:
We were at a UVA football game this past weekend, and I happened to take a slow motion video when they were throwing like a 30 or 40 yard bomb pass.
Casey:
Uh, which I know neither of you probably understand any of this, but suffice to say it was a very impressive play.
Casey:
And I just so happened to choose that play to take slow motion video.
Casey:
And it's really cool.
Casey:
And then last night, just goofing around, Aaron took a video of me like supermanning into bed.
Casey:
And, uh, it's really funny and I should probably post it somewhere, but, uh, it's, it's, it's really impressive, the slow motion camera and very cool.
Casey:
So.
Casey:
I'm not saying that you're wrong about coming from a 5.
Casey:
You're probably right.
Casey:
But let me tell you, from a 4S, it is night and day different.
Casey:
It is a whole new experience.
Casey:
And I would say a much better upgrade than it was to go from the 3GS to the 4S.
Marco:
I mean, really, this shows quite how big of an upgrade the 5 was.
Marco:
I mean, the 5S is certainly big, but I think people really, people shat all over the 5 when it came out, and it was really good.
Marco:
Like, it was night and day difference, even from the 4S to the 5.
Marco:
It was a massive difference.
Marco:
The combination of the new, thinner, lighter body, the bigger screen, LTE, the way faster A6 CPU, like, it was a big, big difference.
Marco:
And it really did not get the credit that it deserved by a lot of the press at the time.
Marco:
And the 5S is, from what I can tell so far, again with half a day of usage, the 5S is certainly an upgrade.
Marco:
But I don't think it's the magnitude of an upgrade that the 5 was.
John:
It depends on if you have any apps that you had to wait for on the 5.
John:
Like you tap it on the home screen, how long do you have to wait before you can use the app?
John:
The 5 was probably fast enough that you didn't have many apps that took more than like a second or a second and a half or two seconds, right?
John:
But if you had something like a game that you played frequently that had like a five-second load time and it reduces to a 2.5-second load time on the 5S, you would feel that change.
John:
So I think part of it depends on, and that has less to do with the CPU probably than the speed of the flash memory or other factors or whatever.
John:
But when people run benchmarks on it, they're like, oh, look at these apps.
John:
They launch twice as fast.
John:
It doesn't matter if it launches twice as fast if the majority of the time on the five was spent doing the animation in iOS 7.
John:
You know what I mean?
John:
Like that starts to become the gating factor where, okay, so the five as is faster, but there's a 0.3 second transition from the home screen to the launch screen, right?
John:
That's never going to get any faster than how fast your phone gets.
John:
Like you may have more frames of animation.
John:
It may, on a slower phone, it may take a while before that animation begins.
John:
So you got an extra 0.2.1 seconds before the animation begins, right?
John:
But if you had an infinitely fast phone, someone has programmed a core animation, you know, an animation with a fixed amount of time.
John:
And that becomes, once your phone is infinitely fast, the amount of time programmed for all the animations becomes the limiting factor in how fast your phone feels.
John:
We won't probably talk about animations when we talk about iOS 7 a little bit later, but that could be, those two things combined, one, that you didn't run a lot of apps that took a long time anyway, and two, that iOS 7 cranked up all of the transition speeds and now they become sort of the long stick in the pole of, you know, lunch times or transitions.
John:
That may be why it doesn't feel faster.
Casey:
Yeah, very well could be.
Casey:
I mean, all I can tell you is that I don't know that I would say that the 5S feels faster than the 4S because of actual speed and to your point, but the animations are so much more fluid.
Casey:
Like the frame rate based on just my eyeballs when no scientific test or empirical test whatsoever...
Casey:
The frame rate seems so much better, and it really improves the experience.
Casey:
And I didn't notice it.
Casey:
I know I said this before, but I didn't notice it in the 4S until I had tried it on the 5S, and then it was just immediately apparent, and it is a world better.
John:
Yeah, stuttering is terrible.
John:
And like I said, the thing I notice on my iPod Touch is the very, very brief pause before the animation begins, which you will never notice unless you have another device like that you also use frequently that doesn't have that pause.
John:
So yeah, there's the frame rate and there's like the pause before it begins.
John:
Like anytime the phone is unresponsive, even for a microsecond, it's just, it's crazy making, right?
John:
And so...
John:
That unresponsive time doesn't count towards time taken to complete the task because as far as you're concerned the The action that you want to perform hadn't begun yet, but it makes the phone feel slower and I have my fourth-generation iPod touch Should not have you an upgraded iOS 6 because it's all slow and crappy there and upgrading my iPod touch to iOS 7 It does okay, but I definitely noticed the length of the animations increasing So anything else about hardware
Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
It has a beautiful UI.
Marco:
This is a tool that is made to fit into the workflow of creative people.
Marco:
It is blazingly fast.
Marco:
You can log in with the iPhone app designed with iOS 7.
Marco:
Um...
Marco:
So once again, go to ding.io slash ATP.
Marco:
Their app, they got kind of the short end of the stick here.
Marco:
Their app was rejected for a minor thing last week.
Marco:
They've resubmitted it.
Marco:
It's probably going to be out by the time this podcast comes out.
Marco:
Just in case it's not, the app is right around the corner, so hang back in there.
Marco:
And Casey, you do client work.
Marco:
Now, do you have to track your hours?
Marco:
Oh, yeah.
Marco:
How fun is our tracking for people like you?
Casey:
It is extremely unfun.
Casey:
And the more things, more projects you're on, the less fun it is.
Casey:
So if I'm working a nine-hour day and it's all for one client, that's not too terrible.
Casey:
But if I'm even splitting that day between two clients or, God forbid, three or four, it gets really annoying really quickly.
Marco:
Yeah, I mean, it's... And the software to track time, I mean, there's like a million things out there to do this.
Casey:
Oh, and most of them are terrible.
Marco:
Exactly.
Marco:
I mean, it's not a great field.
Marco:
So Ding has walked in there.
Marco:
They sent me these screenshots of their app because you can't get the app yet at the time of recording this.
Marco:
But they sent me the screenshots of the app, and it is beautiful.
Marco:
They have this awesome iOS 7 redesign, or design, rather.
Marco:
And, you know, we're probably going to talk later.
Marco:
I have seen a lot of...
Marco:
Pretty mediocre iOS 7 redesigns of apps where, you know, an app that was just, you know, default UI kit stuff continues to be default UI kit stuff with no other rethinking of anything.
Marco:
And it ends up just looking really terrible.
Marco:
And...
Marco:
Ding, they have taken iOS 7 design to heart, and they have made apps that I think are better designed than many of Apple's iOS 7 apps.
Marco:
The Ding app is really incredible.
Marco:
You can tell these are designers at heart, and it's just really fantastic.
Marco:
The capabilities it has are awesome.
Marco:
Signing in is really quick.
Marco:
You can add comments to things.
Marco:
You can track your time.
Marco:
It's really beautiful.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
Check out Ding at ding.io.
Marco:
That's D-I-N-G dot I-O slash A-T-P and use coupon code A-T-P for a 90-day free trial.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to Ding for sponsoring A-T-P this week.
Marco:
That's just a cool name, too.
Casey:
It's like, bing!
Marco:
In fact, just one little quick thing.
Marco:
To give you some idea of the attention to detail that Ding pays here, in their screenshot, earlier today I saw somebody tweet, I forget who, I think it was Vitici, somebody who tweeted that it annoys them whenever they see Carrier on somebody's status bar in an App Store screenshot.
Marco:
Because when you screenshot the simulator where they normally say AT&T or whatever, it just says the word Carrier.
Marco:
And that's really tacky if you leave that in your app store screenshots.
Marco:
Ding on the screenshots they've sent me to show off their app.
Marco:
It's made by a company named Tite.
Marco:
And the carrier string has been replaced with tg.ht.
Marco:
for tight and that's just it's just like a nice little touch like they thought about that you know and I mean you'd be amazed how many like crappy status bars I see like in half screenshots like where like the battery's down to zero it's in the red and it has like some weird long carry anymore the word carrier you're like just crop that out no they take these things seriously and really great so thanks a lot to Ding for sponsoring alright so iOS 7 John you seem to have some thoughts about this
John:
We're not going to talk about Overcast.
Casey:
Well, we're getting there.
John:
All right, I'll save that to the end then.
Marco:
Wait, that's not a secret anymore?
Marco:
Oh, yeah, I talked about that.
Marco:
I've been trying so hard to not talk about that on this show.
John:
When I saw that tweet, who was it?
John:
I saw a guy English tweeted or somebody tweeted the word overcast.
John:
I'm like, oh, someone slipped.
John:
That was supposed to be a DM.
John:
Oh, no.
John:
Then scroll up.
John:
This was in real time while you were giving your talk probably.
Marco:
Right, yeah.
John:
Oh, my God.
John:
That was a rush.
John:
Felt bad for you for a moment.
Yeah.
Casey:
Just for a brief moment.
Casey:
Yeah, so do we want to talk about iOS 7 for a little bit?
Casey:
Yeah, sure.
Casey:
So, John, how was your first week with iOS 7?
John:
Yeah, so you guys have been using it for a while.
John:
Marco's been developing on it, and did you upgrade WWDC immediately?
Casey:
No, I waited.
Casey:
I don't remember what beta it was, but it was like maybe three or four, I'd say.
Casey:
Yeah, I think I did beta two.
Casey:
Yeah, you were before me for sure by like one or two betas.
Casey:
So I've been running it for maybe a month, maybe two now, I'd say.
John:
Yeah, and everybody has talked about it and done it, but I only saw it at WWDC.
John:
I only played with it on other people's phones briefly and then just, like, said goodbye to it.
John:
And I said, well, I'll come back to that again when it's released, I guess.
John:
Because I knew I'd be busy with Mavericks and I didn't want to distract myself with that stuff.
John:
And plus I figured it would give, you know, Apple a lot of time to fix stuff.
John:
So by the time I see it, I'll see, like, you know, the good final version.
John:
And so now I put it on my iPod Touch.
John:
the day it was released, which is a little bit of a challenge because of Apple's usual server woes.
John:
And I've been using it, and I tweeted sometime earlier this week.
John:
What did I say about that?
John:
It was the only video review of iOS 7 that you need to watch.
John:
And it's only 17 seconds long.
John:
And this is a YouTube video that we'll put in the show notes of a little boy named Jack who looks to be, I don't know, four, five, three, two.
John:
I can't tell kids ages.
John:
Even though I have kids of my own who have passed through those ages, I still can't tell kids ages.
John:
Uh, and in the short video, it shows the boy crying and the mom, and he's, he's crying about something.
John:
And the mom says, what's different?
John:
He's the kid is crying about iOS seven.
John:
And then Jack says everything.
John:
And then the dad says, well, you're just going to have to get used to it.
John:
And Jack says, no, I don't want to.
John:
That's the whole video.
Yeah.
John:
A little boy crying about iOS 7, right?
John:
So that was you?
John:
Well, so that's what I posted.
John:
I said, this is the only video review of iOS 7 you need to watch.
John:
It's only 17 seconds long.
John:
Posted the link to Twitter, right?
John:
So there's multiple possible interpretations of that tweet.
John:
And occasionally I do this, sometimes intentionally, sometimes not intentionally.
John:
This time was kind of intentionally, where I didn't
John:
Uh, I didn't offer interpretation.
John:
I just, I wrote that one thing which said, you know, this is the only review you need to watch and you can't even tell if that's sarcastic or sincere and even if it is sincere, what does it mean?
John:
So, uh, possible interpretations.
John:
The first one is iOS 7 is so bad it makes little kids cry.
John:
Right.
John:
And that interpretation would be like, I hate iOS 7.
John:
I'm tweeting this link to this video.
John:
And so other people would interpret it that way, whether they liked it or not.
John:
And so you get people saying, iOS 7 isn't bad.
John:
You know, you're a duty head because you think it's bad.
John:
Or people going, yeah, right on.
John:
iOS 7 isn't a piece of crap, right?
John:
So there's a huge swath of my following public that thought I was posting that video because I thought iOS 7 was so bad it makes children cry.
John:
And the other popular interpretation is that iOS 7 is great, and anybody who complains about iOS 7 is a big baby, just like this big baby.
John:
And so I got the replies from those people going, I'm not a big baby just because I hate iOS 7. iOS 7 has legitimate problems.
John:
Or other people saying, yeah, that's right.
John:
All those people complaining about iOS 7 are just a bunch of whiners, right?
John:
So it's like four distinct reactions to these two possible interpretations in pretty even supply.
John:
And very little, very, very little kind of people...
John:
asking me what I meant by that tweet, because everyone responding thought they already knew exactly what I meant by that tweet, whether they agree with it or not, right?
John:
So what did I mean when I posted that tweet?
John:
Did I mean that it's so bad it makes kids cry, or did I mean that people complaining about it are big babies?
John:
I meant both.
John:
That's why I said this is the only review you need to watch, because it contains all possible positions, and I think all those positions are valid.
Yeah.
John:
And I'm going to get, like, touchy-feely for a moment here, but this is the reason I posted and the reason I thought the video was so great.
John:
We like to think that, like, as we get older and we mature, that we change into something better.
John:
Like, you know, little kids are crappy and stupid and do dumb things, and now we get older and we're like, oh, we're better people than that now.
John:
When we drop our ice cream cone on the sidewalk, we don't cry.
John:
We don't throw tantrums when it's time for bed at night.
John:
When someone tells us that we can't have something, we don't fall on the floor and kick our feet and scream.
John:
Those are things that little kids do, and we're grown-ups.
John:
We don't do that.
John:
So obviously we have changed into a better form, a higher form of life, right?
Yeah.
John:
So that's the common view of aging and maturing stuff.
John:
But another model that I think works equally well, possibly better, is to not think of it as us transforming from this crappy little mewling, screaming pink thing that poops his pants into some high-minded ideal.
John:
But think of it more like Russian nesting dolls.
John:
You know what those are?
John:
Like the little doll, and then you put another big doll around it.
John:
Is that what it's called?
John:
I don't know.
Casey:
I think so.
Casey:
Isn't that what the video file format is based off of?
John:
Is that what it is?
John:
Oh.
John:
I think so.
Marco:
That makes sense, yeah.
John:
What about the Wikipedia page in there?
John:
I just call them Russian nesting dolls.
John:
And in that model, as we get older, all you're doing is adding layers, increasingly sophisticated layers.
John:
And the reason this model...
John:
is interesting is because the screaming, crying four year old is still in the middle as like the like the smallest doll.
John:
Like it doesn't go away.
John:
It's still there.
John:
Right.
John:
And so when something like iOS 7 comes along, all of our inner cranky four year olds are crying about it.
John:
Right.
John:
It's like it doesn't matter how old we are, how mature we are.
John:
We're the big nesting doll.
John:
And inside every one of us is a little tiny, you know, four year old crying in there.
John:
And some people's inner four year olds cry louder than others.
John:
And in this model of viewing sort of human behavior, the extreme reactions to iOS 7, both the extreme good reactions and the extreme bad reactions.
John:
can kind of be seen as reactions to that inner child.
John:
So the extreme bad reaction is like, your inner child is cranky about iOS 7.
John:
I don't like it.
John:
I don't want change.
John:
But the outer sophisticated layer is like, well, come on.
John:
I'm not going to cry and stamp my feet about it.
John:
But I will channel that energy into a more sophisticated form of protest, which will be tweeting the words iOS 7 sucks and writing blog posts where you explain at length exactly why iOS 7 sucks.
John:
Right?
John:
And the extreme good reaction is that same four-year-old crying, going, oh, everything's different than it was in six, I don't know what's going on, still crying and everything.
John:
But the other reaction is, say, but wait a second, I'm better than that, I'm not a four-year-old, I'm not a big baby.
John:
And then trying to find, let me look at Iowa Sun, there must be something good about it.
John:
That four year old is just crying because things have changed.
John:
But I'm a much more sophisticated, rational adult.
John:
And so you're reacting against your inner four year old and calling yourself a big baby.
John:
And then you react most strongly to people who have the same kind of reaction.
John:
So when you see someone else whining, you're like, because you felt that same feeling inside yourself, like, oh, my God, everything's changed.
John:
I don't know where anything is.
John:
And it's kind of ugly and jarring.
John:
you fought that feeling back and, and figured out what the real situation is.
John:
And then you see someone else exhibiting it.
John:
You're like, it's kind of like where you like pick on people who have the same weaknesses as you do, like more violently than you would for people who have weaknesses that you don't have.
John:
There's probably some psychological phrase for that or whatever, but I,
John:
I think that's definitely the case when any piece of software or operating system or thing that tech nerds are like intimately familiar with changes in a big way.
John:
Whether the change is actually good or actually bad, change causes that little four-year-old to cry just like this little boy Jack in this video cries.
John:
And I think understanding why Jack is crying and how our inner Jacks are also crying about this helps us to...
John:
you know, if you're aware of that, if you're aware of this thing, if you have this Russian nesting doll model in your mind, then you can sort of figure out what the real situation is and not become a slave to these sort of inner motivations.
John:
Because if you don't think about it, if you don't like think about these feelings and try to like analyze them rationally,
John:
You will not be aware that they're there at all.
John:
You will deny their existence, but they will subconsciously sort of affect how you react to things.
John:
So that's why I really like this video of Jack crying.
John:
And I definitely experienced all of his feelings with my inner four-year-old when using iOS 7.
Casey:
So that video was 17 seconds.
Casey:
You've been talking for five or 10 minutes.
John:
I thought it was, I thought it was a great, and this is not John.
Casey:
This is why I love you.
Casey:
I just want you to know, and I'm not being funny.
John:
I liked how everyone else's reaction to it.
John:
Like, you know, it was part, it's like, it's like performance art that one tweet, everyone else's reaction to it was like, yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.
John:
All of you people.
John:
And I'm not telling any of them that they're right or wrong.
John:
It's just that like, that's what's going on with iOS seven.
John:
Um, um,
John:
The only thing I have to say about iOS 7 is... Well, I've said this in the past show.
John:
Everything Marco posted on his post about the animations being longer and annoying him, yes, of course it annoys me.
John:
Of course it annoys me that the animations are longer.
John:
I would love... The first thing I did was turn on reduced motion because I could not stand that parallax stuff.
John:
Lots of people when talking about motion sickness, which I am susceptible to, maybe... I did feel a little bit of vertigo even with reduced motion off just from the animations, but I found that my normal...
John:
way of dealing with motion sickness also works in ios 7 so the normal way in like a moving vehicle is to make sure that what your eyes see agrees with what your inner ear feels so you want to be looking out some window that lets you know when the car turns you see the scenery turning and so then you know everything matches up and you're fine well
John:
Things move on the screen in iOS 7, and there's no way my narrator is going to agree with that, but I can at least help my brain along by once I realize what the animation is going to be, looking in that direction.
John:
So if I tap the lower right icon and it zooms in to fill the screen, once I know that that's going to happen, I can...
John:
focus my eyes down that thing and sort of follow the animation through you know not like it's a big conscious thing that you do but eventually you learn where to look right before i was looking at the center of the screen because ios 6 would just make everything zoom out of the center but now when i when i tap in the lower right my eyes look in the lower right and follow it as it zooms out into full screen
John:
And that has helped me not feel quite as dizzy when the animations are taking, or just don't look at the front at all when the animations are going on.
John:
But yes, they do take longer.
John:
I understand why they're there.
John:
I understand the model that they're providing.
John:
I'm willing to give Apple mostly a pass on it, but I would like things to happen faster.
John:
if I had my choice.
John:
And the final bit here is, and the notes are with the science of usability.
John:
This is something that I love from the old world, Apple.
John:
It's, I don't know if it's missing from the current Apple, but certainly when Steve Jobs came back, he did not like this and he got rid of it as much as he possibly could.
John:
The science of usability idea is that
John:
there's a way that you can test with science.
John:
Imagine that whether something is usable or not, like that.
John:
It's yes, there's an art to it and there's style and there's creativity and stuff like that, but there's also things you can actually test, you know, like Fitz law is the one everyone knows about the guy who's testing how easy it is to acquire and, and, uh, click on targets based on their size and distance from the cursor and all sorts of things like that.
John:
Uh,
John:
And that same thing applying to physical things, right?
John:
So you could have multiple designs of how do we arrange these things?
John:
Where do we put the buttons?
John:
How big are the buttons?
John:
Do we have buttons at all?
John:
Do we have scroll bars?
John:
What's easier to discover?
John:
So on and so forth.
John:
And you can argue about it all you want, but one of the tools you have in your toolbox to figure out
John:
whether something is actually a good interface or not, is science.
John:
You can have a theory, you can construct an experiment to test that theory, you can test it on actual people, and you can take the results and decide whether it was good or bad and refine and go on and on.
John:
Now, that's not to say that that's the only approach you should take, because if that's all you do is actual scientific usability testing, you can end up with an interface that is quote-unquote usable but is not pleasant to use, is not attractive, like has other qualities that may actually be at odds with usability but make for a more pleasant overall experience.
John:
So when
John:
Jobs came back to Apple.
John:
It seems like he was not in favor of the old Apple Human Interface Group, which did a lot of this research.
John:
Because as far as he was concerned, they were doing interesting research, fine.
John:
But where were the great products they were making?
John:
And he wanted to make great products.
John:
And all that sort of academic scientific research was not producing great products.
John:
Therefore, it needed to go and screw that.
John:
I can just use my gut and my artistic taste and then a bunch of smart people to make things that I want.
John:
And we'll go with that.
John:
And iOS 7...
John:
has brought back a little bit of the science of usability stuff in the criticism of it because people are like, okay, all these little outline icons, I don't like them.
John:
I don't like those outline icons.
John:
And so someone will pull out, and I put a link in the notes file here,
John:
I think the outline icons are harder to recognize.
John:
And so someone says, okay, well, let's sort of kind of use science to test that.
John:
Let's make a bunch of icons, some of them with outlines, some of them with solid things, and see test recognition speed and stuff.
John:
And the results were inclusive in this thing.
John:
But the whole idea that when something is not to your taste for some reason, whether it's because it's a change or because you just don't like how it looks...
John:
then only then people will go well i think this is worse and i'll try to find a way to prove it which is kind of the reverse of the way you should be doing you would hope that apple would only make these decisions because they found them to be usable in some way but i think it's a pretty good bet that apple just doesn't do that kind of thing anymore and they go almost entirely off their gut and artistic creative decisions and almost none of it is based on actual scientific usability testing certainly not directly uh and maybe not even indirectly uh
John:
And a lot of what I see in iOS 7 is a lot of art, a lot of style, and a lot of things, whether I like them or not, that I have to think...
John:
are not the result of testing and iowa 6 was the same way they're not testing like leather and stitching and stuff like that and maybe it doesn't even make a difference but sort of the underlying philosophy of how things should work i think they had a philosophy i think they're less interested in science than they should be and this is not just true of iowa 7 it's true of everything it just comes to the front now because iowa 7 is a transition point so now all the things that are different stylistically the people who don't like them are trying to look for
John:
explanations of why they're empirically bad and i don't think there are good explanations of why they're empirically bad or good because individual like bloggers are not going to do their own scientific experiments and apple has very little to support themselves or at least that they've shown to support their decisions other than this is the way we like it and we think there's sort of like a metaphor for layering that works
John:
uh and i put another link in the notes to dr drang's post about the ios 7 parallax effect of like when you pull up control center and tilt the phone how it doesn't quite work the way it should according to their physical model and whether that's a feature or a bug or whatever uh yeah that those that's basically my thoughts on irson oh and one one more thing if you were making
John:
a magazine design or a road sign or a newspaper or anything that you would want to be laid out with a bunch of information that's easy to consume and to find.
John:
Like there's important information and there's secondary information and you want it to be readable and organized in a nice way.
John:
Nobody in any of the established mediums for displaying, you know, basically text and images in a rectangular background would use hairlines for everything.
John:
I know they're excited that you can use hairlines because it's a retina screen.
John:
And I understand going to an interface that recognizes that everyone's going to be using retina so we can use these hairlines, except for the iPad mini, of course.
John:
We can use these hairlines and do fancy things and everything will be written in the future.
John:
So we use them.
John:
But overuse of hairlines is just like an epidemic in iOS 7, both in Apple's own apps and in other people's apps.
John:
I think it's fine to use hairlines, but you can't use them everywhere because if you use them everywhere, they lose their effect.
John:
you should use them i don't know i mean i don't use not as highlights so much but like it this should be used for a reason and in balance with other things because if you use everything you do everything in hairlines all you've done is just make the entire thing like weaker and lighter and dimmer it's the same complaint people have about the the typography
John:
So hairlines allow the bold things to contrast even more, but if you use hairlines everywhere, you've lost that.
John:
And I think the same thing is true of the outline icons, which aren't always hairlines, but they're kind of like fading off into the distance.
John:
And I know that's kind of what they want, where it fades into the background, and that's not supposed to be content, and the content comes to the front.
John:
But it's such a fuzzy philosophy.
John:
If I had one sort of artistic, again, non-scientific complaint about this, is that the hairlines, it seems to be a little bit too much for me.
Casey:
You know, really quick to go back a step, I actually want to point out that, to me, the 5S screen is actually considerably better than the 4S's.
Casey:
And I can't put my finger on why other than maybe that it's brighter.
Casey:
And I understand there's a control for that, blah, blah, blah.
Casey:
But I do think it looks a lot better.
Casey:
And I'm sure on paper it's not supposed to be.
Casey:
And maybe it's just the newness of everything.
John:
No, it's supposed to be.
John:
It's a better screen than the 4S, yeah.
Marco:
better color reproduction i definitely noticed it although i think it's the same as the five screen this time yeah i think they didn't change that component but but yeah they they every major redesign they um they like improve the color gamut and the brightness and the contrast and everything yeah um so john would you say ios 7 one thumb up two thumbs up still to be determined what do you think in summary
John:
It doesn't bother me.
John:
I like the new... Glowing endorsement.
John:
Yeah, well, I like the new look of things because you get kind of tired looking at the old thing.
John:
And I've said ever since Windows Metro appearance came along on the scene however many months or years ago, that you can't go back to... Once you see that kind of interface, when you look back... I was saying when I saw the Windows Metro demo, I looked back at my...
John:
iPod Touch, which was then running iOS 6, I guess, maybe even 5, and it looked like a piece of crap, right?
John:
Because that's the way the artistic ebb and flow of bell-bottoms are in, bell-bottoms are out, long hair, short hair, long skirts, short skirts.
John:
The fashion had gone way in one direction, and now it's swinging in the other direction.
John:
So having iOS 7, which is along those lines of the opposite direction as iOS 6 with the...
John:
less clutter and and more sort of uh matte colors and shades and stuff like that that's refreshing i even like you know the stupid new shape for the icons whatever you want to call that thing i like that and on the rightness green super ellipse yeah they're and they're slightly bigger now marco you would know yeah it's like three uh points bigger
John:
Yeah, I notice it.
John:
I like that.
John:
It's like, yeah, why weren't they so small before?
John:
I think they should be bigger.
John:
It's nice.
John:
And I like the outline, and everyone's doing their redesigns of their apps, which is great.
John:
I don't like the new Instapaper icon, though.
John:
You shouldn't tell them about that.
John:
Really?
John:
I do.
Marco:
I don't dislike it, but I like the old one better.
Marco:
Well, the old one would have looked ridiculous on iOS 7.
Marco:
Actually, I know it did, because when I was running the first few betas, before I had the Instapaper beta, I did have the old icon, and it did look ridiculous.
John:
Yeah, the thing that bugs me bad is the images on sort of the pseudo-newspaper behind there.
John:
The images look like they're blurry, and I know they're not.
John:
I know they're just like super low-contrast shrunken versions of the actual pictures.
John:
but they don't look as crisp.
John:
It makes the background look a little bit muddy to me.
John:
And the previous version had the same muddiness problem, but it made up for it with the super sharp, like, curling edges, which, again, wouldn't fit an iOS 7, but it was, like, enough sharpness there to balance out the muddiness.
John:
Anyway...
John:
so that's getting off track but i i'm liking iowa 7 the features are the part that i'm enjoying the most like being able to swipe up and turn off rotation lock makes such a big difference to me even though swiping up is sometimes a little bit slower and laggier just because i hate hitting the home button i don't understand why i hate hitting the home button so much maybe i'm the only person who feels this way but i hate hitting the home button
John:
You don't know how much I wish for like three finger squish to get back to home.
John:
Because on the iPad, I never touch that home button if I can help it.
Marco:
Yeah, you just have the whole hand pinch out and that's it.
John:
Yeah.
John:
And I can't fully articulate why does that incredibly awkward looking big hand pinch feel so much better to me.
John:
than pressing that home button on the iPad.
John:
And it's not because the iPad's in different orientations and I forget where the home button is.
John:
I just despise double tapping that home button for multitasking.
John:
I despise hitting it to get back to the home screen because I just feel like a touch device should be all about, you know, my fingers against that glass and not about pressing a button in and out.
John:
So I like being able to get to control center and do the rotation lock, which is my most frequently used feature on the thing, even though it's probably faster for me to do it the other way just because it means I don't have to press a button.
John:
Wow.
John:
You guys don't feel that way?
John:
I mean, maybe I'm the only one who hates hitting the home button.
Casey:
You know, it's funny.
Casey:
On the iPad, where I do have the five-finger pinch in to go home, I do that pretty much always.
Casey:
On the iPhone, it doesn't bother me.
Casey:
I don't know if it's because the screen is so much bigger on the iPad.
Casey:
And so, to your point, once I'm committed to being in an app or to operating only with the screen, it breaks the illusion if I have to hit a physical button.
Casey:
But on the phone, it doesn't bother me at all.
John:
It's the double tap on the phone that kills me, like the double click.
John:
It's just not a good button to double up on.
John:
The new Multitasking 7 is so much nicer where you can see the thumbnails.
John:
I still don't like how they scroll.
John:
I still feel like when I'm trying to flick my way through them, it still feels like it's getting away from me, like it's a runaway car.
Marco:
Although one thing that is really cool is that you can close multiple apps at once just by dragging them all away at the same time most of the time.
Marco:
The problem is there's this bug that's still in the GM where sometimes, well, pretty regularly, if you try to push away a few apps at once, the screenshot portion of the UI will be flung away, but the icon in the bottom will stay and the app will stay running.
Marco:
And so you have to exit the multitasking picture, go back in, and clear away the few that that happened to because then their screenshots will reappear when you go back into it.
John:
I'm still happy to do them just one at a time because that means anything that removes a tap and hold from iOS is my friend.
John:
Yes.
John:
Because I can't stand tap and hold in any context.
John:
It drives me nuts.
John:
And tapping those tiny little Xs always suck too.
John:
Yeah.
John:
It was like tap and hold, jiggle mode, hit the little X, and now it's just like flick, flick, flick so much nicer.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
Oh, and I will say that to go back to the hardware again, the Touch ID is magic.
Casey:
It is absolutely magic, and I love it.
Casey:
I never ran – we talked about this before.
Casey:
I never ran a passcode except when I was traveling.
Casey:
Now, like Marco said, I'm running one.
Casey:
And I would say my success rate is somewhere in the 90% to 95% range, and it is really fantastic and very, very stupefyingly quick.
Casey:
So two thumbs up for that.
John:
And I never did a passcode on my things.
John:
I never have...
John:
Numerical passcode, so it would be in Marco's camp where if I was to get something with Touch ID, it would be like I'm increasing my security for hopefully a very small new inconvenience.
John:
But for the people who don't have a passcode, iOS 7's ability to let you swipe the whole screen to the right is kind of the equivalent of before you had to get your thumb down onto this little narrow thing, which granted I could do with my eyes closed with both hands by this point.
John:
But it was still a little bit fidgety.
John:
Now knowing that I can swipe to the right anywhere on the entire giant lock screen,
John:
I do that now, and I find that I naturally swipe much higher than I did before.
Casey:
Yeah, same here.
John:
So now the line of thumb grease is now no longer just along the bottom part of my phone.
John:
Now it's kind of like in an arc across the top, which is much more natural.
John:
So thumbs up for those of us without a fingerprint sensor, still getting the benefit of more comfortable opening up of your phone after powering it on.
Marco:
I will say, so I've never used a passcode.
Marco:
When I got the 5S, of course, this is actually pretty interesting.
Marco:
During the little activation thing, the little welcome process where it had you log into iCloud and stuff like that, it tells you, all right, enter a passcode.
Marco:
Now it's time to enter a passcode.
Marco:
And you can skip it.
Marco:
But it presents it as the default that, okay, now you have to set a passcode.
Marco:
And, hey, do you want to set up Touch ID while you're at it?
Marco:
So it's interesting that they're really, like, pushing people to do this.
Marco:
That being said, I'm not sure I'm going to keep that on all the time.
Marco:
It's good enough.
Marco:
I mean, granted, again, this is a few hours of use, so ask me again next week.
Marco:
But it's good enough that I'm perfectly happy to leave it on if I'm going to be, like, at a conference or traveling.
Marco:
where it would be more likely somebody might steal my phone or pick it up off the table or something like that, even though my phone's always in my pocket.
Marco:
But as I'm just sitting at home, working at home, not going anywhere except the pizza place most days, I don't really think it's worth it because it is still some friction.
Marco:
There's still, between having a passcode and not having a passcode, there still is a few little delays here and there, even with Touch ID.
Marco:
There's still a few things you can't do.
Marco:
One thing I immediately found is that
Marco:
You can't launch an app for development from Xcode over the cable while it's locked.
Marco:
So you have to go unlock the phone so Xcode can launch the app if the phone was asleep.
Marco:
So there's little things like that.
Marco:
I am hitting some friction still.
Marco:
So I'm not entirely sure I'm going to keep it, but we'll see.
Marco:
I will certainly turn it on for conferences and stuff.
Marco:
No question about that.
John:
Yeah, I never understood the people who did the passcodes while they were in their house.
John:
It's kind of like going from room to room in your own house.
John:
And each time you go from room to room, you lock the door with the key behind you.
John:
Right, exactly.
John:
Every time you go into the kitchen, open the kitchen door with the key, go into the kitchen, close the kitchen door with the key, lock it.
John:
You're in your own house.
John:
I mean, everyone has a different threshold for security and how sensitive the information is in their phone.
John:
But even if I got something with Touch ID, I would only enable it if ever when I was going out somewhere.
Casey:
Well, and the other thing to consider, though, is that a lot of people have devices either provided by their employer or that are by virtue of being connected to their employer's exchange server or email server.
Casey:
They are subject to their employer's ridiculous passcode requirements.
Casey:
And so I haven't tested this, but to my understanding, even if you have a 39-character full-text passcode because your employer requires a 39-character full-text passcode, Touch ID, I believe, will still bypass that.
Casey:
And that has got to be just an incredible win.
Casey:
And luckily, my company is small enough that we don't have any of those draconian policies, but I've got to imagine for people who are members of really big companies, that must be fantastic.
Marco:
Although, how many of those big company IT people are going to have read the various stories and say, oh, we found out how to fake a finger and bypass it, and now they're going to say, oh, well, by the way, you can't use that either.
Casey:
Well, that's probably true, but not yet.
Casey:
That FUD hasn't spread yet.
Marco:
That's good.
Marco:
It only takes like one spreading of that, and then like half the people out there can't use it.
Marco:
That's true.
Marco:
You want to tell us about something else that's awesome?
Marco:
I would love to.
Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
That's 20% off.
Marco:
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Marco:
You've got to hurry up.
Marco:
Go to squarespace.com and use offer code ATP9 because it is month number nine.
Marco:
So, Squarespace is constantly improving their platform with new features, new designs, and better support.
Marco:
And they already have pretty good support and features and designs to begin with, so that's really saying something.
Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
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Marco:
It's incredibly easy to use, but if you want some help, Squarespace has an amazing support team.
Marco:
They work 24-7.
Marco:
There's over 70 employees in their New York office just dedicated to support, and they're always growing that team.
Marco:
Just the support team has won numerous awards.
Marco:
Recently, they even won a Gold Stevie Award.
Marco:
Squarespace starts at just $8 a month, and that includes a free domain name if you sign up for a whole year up front.
Marco:
Plus, every design automatically includes a unique mobile experience, a responsive design that matches the overall style you've chosen for your site.
Marco:
So your content looks great on every device, every time.
Marco:
You can start a trial today with no credit card required.
Marco:
You can start building your website today.
Marco:
See how you like Squarespace.
Marco:
Give it a shot.
Marco:
Just start building a site that you can import from some services.
Marco:
It's pretty great.
Marco:
Start a free trial today with no credit card.
Marco:
When you decide to sign up for Squarespace, make sure you use our offer code ATP9 to get 20% off.
Marco:
Now, as far as I know, it's only for the month of September.
Marco:
We don't know what they're going to do next month yet.
Marco:
They just said 20% off for September.
Marco:
So hurry up, get that started, and use our code ATP9 for that 20% off and to show your support for ATP.
Marco:
Thank you very much to Squarespace for sponsoring the show.
Marco:
They are everything you need to create an exceptional website.
Casey:
Let me tack on to that.
Casey:
We actually got an email from a listener, which was completely unsolicited.
Casey:
And so Ravenda wrote in and said, keep it up, guys.
Casey:
Thank you for introducing Squarespace to your audience.
Casey:
I recently made a Squarespace site for my wife, who is a fashion designer, and it looks awesome.
Casey:
I probably could not find a website designer who can come close to the site design I'm having now.
Casey:
So definitely well-received by our listeners.
Casey:
So just like Marco said, ATP9, go check it out.
Casey:
All right, so... So do you do anything over the weekend, Marco?
Marco:
Yeah, I traveled halfway across the country and entered a new product, then traveled back and made a couple blog posts.
Marco:
What did you do?
Casey:
Eh, not much.
Casey:
Went to a football game.
Marco:
That's good.
Casey:
So tell us about this app.
Marco:
Well, without making this too much of the Marco show, I announced at the XOXO Festival, which I guess is a lot like a conference, but it's good.
Marco:
So they want you to call it a festival because there are parts of it that are more like a festival than a conference.
Marco:
But I spoke at the conference portion of the festival.
Marco:
I believe I have this hierarchy correct.
Marco:
And that's in Portland.
Marco:
And it was my first time in Portland.
Marco:
And so first of all, from what I saw of Portland...
Marco:
A quick little anecdote here, and I hope this doesn't offend the Germans or the Portlanders, Portlandias, Portlandese.
Marco:
Okay, anyway.
Marco:
Portlandics.
Marco:
So a couple of years ago, I went to Munich, and it was my first time in Germany and my first time in Munich.
Marco:
And I was there only for a couple of days for another conference, actually.
Marco:
And I had a friend in France who drove in to take me and Tiff out for the night because he was familiar with Munich.
Marco:
And he took us to the Hofbrauhaus, which is famous.
Marco:
Now, I didn't know that it was famous.
Marco:
At the time, I had never heard of it.
Marco:
I didn't know anything about the place or the city or anything like that because I was a stupid American.
Marco:
And I still am a stupid American.
Marco:
Now I just know about the Hofbrauhaus.
Marco:
Anyway, so we were in Munich, and he takes us to this place, and he said, just so you know,
Marco:
the Bavarians take their culture very seriously.
Marco:
And even though there's a lot of tourists here, there's also a lot of people who just live here who come here.
Marco:
And this is not a joke.
Marco:
This is not a tourist trap.
Marco:
This is not over the top.
Marco:
This is actually just normal for Bavaria.
Marco:
And you go into this place, and it's like every stereotype you could possibly imagine hearing about Germans as a stupid American.
Marco:
It's like the giant mugs of beer, the big guys playing the big accordions and everything.
Marco:
Everyone's happy, and there's this big hall, and everyone's singing beer songs.
Marco:
And there's sausage everywhere, which, by the way, is delicious.
Marco:
It's every stereotype you could imagine.
Marco:
You would think that you walked into a Times Square, terrible, insensitive...
Marco:
parody of what we think Germans are.
Marco:
But that was real.
Marco:
And according to our friends, that is actually taken reasonably seriously.
Marco:
That's not an insensitive joke.
Marco:
That's how Portland was.
Marco:
Like, you see... And granted, I was only there for a few days.
Marco:
But you see... Like, the... It's just... Every stereotype you've heard about Portland.
Marco:
Like, everything.
Marco:
And even if you've seen a few episodes of Portlandia, like, I saw a few of them.
Marco:
It's exactly like that.
Marco:
Like, it's not a joke.
Marco:
That actually... Like, the people are all... Like...
Marco:
I don't know how to describe it very well, except that it's as if the entire city is really nice.
Marco:
Everyone wants to give you a hug figuratively.
Marco:
I didn't get any physical hugs, but figuratively... Well, actually, no, I did get a few.
Marco:
But most people just want to figuratively and emotionally give you a hug.
Marco:
And everyone's laid back, nice, non-judgmental, and...
Marco:
Everyone's driving crappy cars and going to really cool coffee shops and beer.
Marco:
Everywhere has cool coffee and cool beer.
Marco:
And all the coffee is very lightly roasted because that's the right thing to do.
Marco:
And there's tons of stores that just sell gourmet ice cream.
Marco:
It basically seems as though the entire city is built by Etsy and Kickstarter.
Marco:
Just everyone there, I'm pretty sure the entire population of Portland works on their own project that was either funded by Kickstarter or is sold on Etsy.
Marco:
Now, some of this obviously is the crowd I was with, but definitely the entire city had that vibe to it where I could not believe that it wasn't a joke, that it was real.
Marco:
And it's in all the best possible ways.
Marco:
But it was very real.
Marco:
So Portland was awesome.
Marco:
Anyway, while I was there, I spoke at the conference, and there's going to be a video posted soon.
Marco:
I don't know when, but it will be soon.
Marco:
And I announced during the video my next new app project, the big app that I've been talking about on the show for a few months, which I announced.
Marco:
As a podcast app.
Marco:
And it is a podcatcher, as some people would call it.
Marco:
It's an app that plays podcasts.
Marco:
It does not record podcasts or help you produce podcasts.
Marco:
It is a podcast-playing app.
Marco:
And it's called Overcast.
Marco:
And it's not out.
Marco:
It's not even close to being out.
Marco:
But I'm probably...
Marco:
three to five months away maybe from releasing 1.0 uh so yeah that's what i'm doing so why bother announcing a few things one was that i was filing for various like trademark things and company creation and stuff like that so i was you know similar to how like apple announced the original iphone six months in advance because they were filing all this fcc stuff and they figured it might leak um
Marco:
So part of it was that, that I was doing a lot of paperwork stuff that if anybody did any digging, they would be able to find.
Marco:
And normally, I would not be so arrogant as to think that people were digging through my trash looking for secrets because I'm not that important.
Marco:
But the possibility that somebody might come across a trademark filing or something, I thought, you know what, I don't want to have to deal with that.
Marco:
I also wanted to talk about it.
Marco:
I'm facing a lot of interesting decisions and design challenges and technical challenges during a lot of this.
Marco:
Some of which are going to be interesting to talk about in public.
Marco:
Some of which, like, I don't want to, like, have to be worried about if I ask a question on Twitter or Stack Overflow about some, like, core audio code.
Marco:
I don't want everyone to have to try to, like, guess what I'm making with core audio, you know.
Marco:
Stuff like that.
Marco:
Like, there's...
Marco:
There's a lot of practical advantages.
Marco:
I'm also trying to open source a lot of this stuff.
Marco:
I open sourced the FC model class last week, and that went well.
Marco:
I want to be able to open source some of my utility classes that I'm making.
Marco:
I don't want people trying to connect the dots and figure out what I'm making based on what I'm releasing and the questions I'm asking.
Marco:
And so all of that combined into me deciding, oh, and I was giving this talk in front of this audience that is pretty much the perfect audience to announce something like this at.
Marco:
So I figured it was a very good opportunity for me to say, you know what, I'm just going to announce this here.
Marco:
And, yeah, and I did.
Marco:
And it went very well.
Marco:
You know, I've done the secrecy until release thing before.
Marco:
And it certainly has its advantages.
Marco:
There's a reason why Apple almost always does that.
Marco:
But, you know, as I said in the talk, it is very stressful.
Marco:
And so one of the things is I'm experimenting here.
Marco:
I don't know if I'll always do this.
Marco:
I'm experimenting and I'm trading the stress of trying to keep it secret for the stress of everybody asking me if it's done yet.
Marco:
And I don't know if it's going to be overall better.
Marco:
We'll find out.
Casey:
Did you feel like you needed that pressure, that external pressure?
Marco:
A little bit, certainly.
Marco:
You know, I think...
Marco:
There's certainly been diversions.
Marco:
I believe I discussed it on this show, but I at least discussed on Twitter how I had an original trademark issue with the name that I had picked, and that name was Overcast.
Marco:
I ended up working it out, and I made a big post on my site, I'm not going to go into it now, about how I worked it out and why I worked it out, and how I came up with other names and why I didn't use any of them.
Marco:
But...
Marco:
That demotivated me for a while because it was holding things up.
Marco:
Without settling for a name, I can't yet create the company, so I can't create my developer account, so I can't easily test things like push notifications, stuff like that.
Marco:
There was all sorts of little things that demotivated me.
Marco:
you know in in both psychological and like roadblock ways like okay it kind of would help if I had this thing first before I could really work on this part of it you know so there was a lot of that but certainly the external pressure will help and yeah my original goal was to have it out for iOS 7 obviously that didn't happen and that's not even close so we'll see so best guess when like do you have a goal for when you want to release
Marco:
I would like to have it out this year.
Marco:
In reality, that's probably going to mean late December, if anything.
Marco:
But we'll see.
Marco:
I don't think there's a great chance it's going to be earlier than that.
Marco:
There's a decent chance it might be a couple months after that.
Marco:
Maybe January, February, something like that.
Marco:
I really don't know.
Marco:
I'm...
Marco:
I'm absolutely terrible at estimating time like this, and as most developers are, but I'm even worse at it.
Marco:
I really have no idea.
Marco:
The underlying data and sync and audio layers are all basically done.
Marco:
I'm basically now building the interface.
Marco:
And parts of it are done.
Marco:
Parts of it are very much not done.
Marco:
There's still a lot of missing features that I haven't implemented yet.
Marco:
Basics, like adding and removing subscriptions.
Marco:
I haven't done that yet.
Marco:
There's big, big things that are not done yet that would block a 1.0.
Marco:
So there's still a lot to do.
Marco:
It's very hard for me to estimate when it's going to be.
Casey:
Now, do you feel like you brought up the interface a second ago?
Casey:
Do you feel like you've got a pretty clear design or idea and you're just kind of filling in the blanks at this point?
Casey:
Are you still toying with it, messing around, trying totally different paradigms?
Casey:
Where do you feel you are with the UI side?
Marco:
Well, I said in my post, the most important design challenge in a podcast app is the now playing screen.
Marco:
Because you have all these incredibly competing pressures.
Marco:
And you can't satisfy everything.
Marco:
There was this great blog post on Joel on Software forever ago, but not as forever ago as some of his other posts.
Marco:
I think it was in the 2010s decade.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And it was it was talking about the design of a city garbage can.
Marco:
And he was saying how, you know, OK, it has to be both heavy to stay in place, but also lightweight so that people can empty it easily.
Marco:
And it has to be easy to throw things in, but hard to throw certain things in and hard to get things out and tip things over.
Marco:
And like it's like so it had to be like heavy and light, big and small, you know, easy and hard to use.
Marco:
Like there's all these competing pressures.
Marco:
There's a lot of that in the design of lots of things in software, and the podcast now playing screen is no exception.
Marco:
You look at all the controls that most of these apps try to cram in there, and you can see why they do it.
Marco:
If you have the big album art, it looks really nice.
Marco:
but it also takes up the vast majority of the vertical space.
Marco:
So you can not have the big album art, which is what Downcast does.
Marco:
You can shrink that away, and then it leaves room so you can show show notes.
Marco:
But you still lose a lot of that vertical space.
Marco:
You can show the big album art like what everyone else does, but then you have these basically two zones to put skinny controls, the top bar and the bottom area,
Marco:
And what most of these apps have done is basically clone the iOS 7 music app with its arrangement of controls for the most part.
Marco:
Almost all these major apps have done that.
Marco:
And I don't think that's necessarily the best of arrangement.
Marco:
There's a lot of that that I'm going to do separately or differently from what they're doing.
Marco:
But this is not an easy problem.
Marco:
At all.
Marco:
A lot of them have also done things that I think are a little bit odd.
Marco:
The cool new thing, which a few of them have done, is to pull colors from the artwork to use as the interface tint color.
Marco:
I've had this running a development for a while.
Marco:
I actually turned it off a couple weeks ago because the colors it pulls are not always good for the controls.
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
And it was weird having the interface be that inconsistent.
Marco:
Like every time we'd look at it, it would be a different look.
Marco:
And it was a little bit jarring.
Marco:
It causes a few other problems like, okay, well, if the now playing screen has that tint color, what about the rest of the app?
Marco:
Do you give it to the whole app or do you give it just to that screen?
Marco:
And if you give it to the whole app, well, then what happens, you know, if you're not playing anything, what color do you use?
Marco:
Or if you give it to just that screen, then how do you make the transitions between those two screens look okay?
Marco:
Like there's all sorts of little,
Marco:
bothering challenges involved in that.
Marco:
So that's annoying.
Marco:
The other thing they also do is most apps, including Apple's, show the artwork in the list screen as a grid.
Marco:
You have just the big thumbnails of each show as a grid.
Marco:
And it looks really cool.
Marco:
It looks like you're scrolling through a grid of LPs, if anybody listening to this actually knows what an LP is.
Marco:
And
Marco:
And so you're scrolling through this grid.
Marco:
I have that working in mind too.
Marco:
It's easy because it's a collection view.
Marco:
And collection views make that extremely easy to do.
Marco:
But I'm pulling it out because it drives me crazy whenever I have to find a show in it.
Marco:
Because finding a show in a grid is terrible.
Marco:
When you're just skimming with your eyes and looking at a screenshot, it looks good.
Marco:
It looks really good.
Marco:
However, it doesn't work.
Marco:
Because you have to zigzag with your eyes back and forth, and it just does not work well.
Marco:
And in fact, John, didn't you always complain about Instapaper's iPad app in that regard?
John:
I did.
John:
You showed me the grid at WWC 2011 or something.
John:
So I didn't like it.
John:
You kept it anyway.
Casey:
Wasn't that in the CAF area?
Casey:
Because I believe I was sitting there when this happened.
Casey:
And my recollection of it was you said, hey, John, look at what I'm doing for Instapaper on the iPad.
Casey:
And it was, I don't like it.
Casey:
Immediately.
Casey:
There was no hesitation.
John:
I think it was in Presidio when you first showed me the grid.
John:
But yeah, no, I'm not a fan.
Marco:
Right.
Marco:
And with Instant Paper, it was a little bit better in that I'm not usually scrolling through to find something in particular.
Marco:
I'm usually just looking at the top view and saying, oh, give me that one.
John:
But I am, and it was killing me because I wouldn't always read from the top.
John:
I'd read the fifth one down on the right.
John:
And that would shift everything over.
John:
So items that used to be on the left are now on the right.
John:
And items that used to be on the right are now on the left because it's two columns.
John:
And so now I couldn't even use like my spatial memory of where was that article about the whatever.
John:
I start skimming the left hand column, not realizing that because I had read something higher up, everything had shifted.
John:
And now I have to look in the right hand column.
John:
And then eventually you just go revert to zigzag because that's the only, you know, viable hit every point to make sure you're finding a thing.
John:
Whereas when it was just a big linear list, it looked awkward because it seemed like they had too much horizontal room, although I liked seeing all the titles.
John:
But then you just look at one spot with your eyes and scroll.
Marco:
Yeah, and it's also easier if you know they're going to be sorted in some way, especially if they're going to be sorted alphabetically or something like that.
Marco:
It's really, really easy to then browse that and find what you're looking for.
John:
Or even time.
John:
I just find it more natural to go back in time as a linear list instead of going back in time as left, right, left, right, left, right, left, right.
Marco:
Exactly.
Marco:
So yeah, I'm going to be making very different decisions in some areas as these other apps.
Marco:
Because obviously, as you can tell, if you've ever listened to me ever anywhere, I have opinions that are pretty strongly held sometimes.
Marco:
And I'm not afraid to look at something and say, you know what, everyone else is doing this this way, but I think that's wrong.
Marco:
Or I think I have a better way to do it.
John:
You want a free, free feature suggestion?
Marco:
Yeah.
John:
This is one you probably shouldn't use because kind of like my, probably like my annoyance with the home button.
John:
It only applies to me, but it definitely applies to me and me and probably like five other people.
John:
So if you want to sell six copies of this program, you know, this is the feature for you.
John:
Uh,
John:
I listen on my iPod Shuffle, so I'm really not in the audience for your app at all anyway because I like to have the physical button.
John:
I like having a little thing I can clip onto my, you know, clothes or whatever.
John:
And I like to be able to use it without looking, all of which you pretty much can't do no matter what you do with the now playing screen, so you shouldn't even bother optimizing for that case.
John:
But anyway, when I am using an iPod Touch to listen to podcasts, which I occasionally do, like I hook it up to a speaker dock.
John:
I don't have an AirPlay one, but I hook it up to a speaker dock and, you know, listen to it in the house and stuff.
John:
The challenge for me is...
John:
Going to an episode and then moving the little scrubber thing to find where I, like, left off because maybe I was listening to it on my iPod Shuffle, which, of course, doesn't synchronize the Playpoint with, you know, my iPod Touch, doesn't synchronize with it.
John:
Like, it's all an island.
John:
They're not synchronizing with each other at all because it's too many different devices.
John:
So I need to find, like, where was that spot where I was listening?
John:
And very long podcast, which I listen to, when you have two hours on, like, the width of an iPhone screen...
John:
There's not enough resolution in moving that little thumb thing to be able to get to the spot that you want.
John:
You can get close, but then you're like, okay, I've got to grab that little circle thing with my thumb, and I move it one pixel.
John:
Oh, wait, no, one pixel is actually like a minute and a half, and I'm too far, and I'll go back.
John:
It's really – I mean, it's just not possible.
John:
There's just not enough resolution there.
John:
Yeah.
John:
When I think about how I would like this to be, I think about it like a video game where instead of being the direct manipulation, which you're totally supposed to do on iOS and on the Mac, where I move my thumb an inch, the little circle moves an inch, it stays right under my thumb.
John:
That's exactly how it works.
John:
You have to end up going to a model where you are controlling the little line that's intersecting the timeline of audio.
John:
And you have kind of like a jog, shuttle, whatever thing, where as I push it to the right, that little line goes faster and faster.
John:
And as it goes faster and faster, the zoom zooms out to see more of the line.
John:
So at maximum speed, I can see the entire two hours of audio.
John:
But at slower speeds, I'm actually seeing in the full width of the screen, you know, maybe like a minute of audio or 30 seconds of audio.
John:
And so you kind of understand, it's kind of hard to explain.
John:
Like where you're not sliding the thing back and forth, you're basically doing accelerate to the right...
John:
accelerate to the left depending on how far off center you put that thing and the key thing is that as your little guy goes faster you have to zoom out kind of like in super smash brothers where when you get far you know far away from each other on the board it zooms out so they both stay in view but when they get closer together it zooms in i don't know if i'm explaining it well but this is the type of system that would give give me enough control to when i get closer to where i want to go to fine tune it this is true actually in any audio editing application any video editing applications
John:
When I want to fine tune something, I want like that second, that half second, that microsecond to fill the full width of my screen so I can really finely adjust it.
John:
But when I want to select an hour and a half of it, I want to see the whole thing, right?
John:
And you have the little zoom in, zoom out that you can manually do, but I would like it to sort of be automatic based on how fast my little guy is moving to scrub around.
John:
I don't know who wants that feature.
John:
30-second back, 8-second forward, whatever is perfectly fine for normals.
John:
But for me, I would definitely be interested in any audio playback application that let me scrub and find my spot with that kind of precision.
Marco:
Yeah, I totally get what you're saying, and I have actually really thought about doing some kind of really cool scrubber to allow that kind of precision, kind of like a logarithmic type of view.
Marco:
I've talked in the past about how I wish somebody did a logarithmic calendar view.
Marco:
The same thing applies to GPS and directions display, where I want to see the next...
Marco:
the next block of my direction in great detail, but then I don't need to, you know, but then I also want to see like, what am I doing over the next half hour in far less detail?
Marco:
Uh, same thing like with the calendar, you know, I would, I really need to see today in, in hour by hour detail, but,
Marco:
Maybe the rest of the week, I don't.
Marco:
And then for the next three weeks, I really don't need to see that at all.
Marco:
So having that kind of logarithmic decay of the view scale in some kind of sensible way, I've always really enjoyed thinking about that and occasionally trying to build it.
Marco:
I think I can apply a similar kind of technique here with the scrubber.
John:
The good thing about the scrubber is you don't actually, unlike the calendar thing, which is definitely also a good idea, you don't actually have to see.
John:
You just need to see today in detail when you're moving slowly.
John:
And the only time you need to see more of the outside is when you start to move faster.
John:
Because I'm not saying show the audio waveform.
John:
It could just be a horizontal line, and the thickness of the line shows how far zoomed in you are.
John:
So when you're moving super slow, the line is super thick, and your vertical line intersecting it is just moving along slowly.
John:
But when you move fast, you can tell you're zooming out because the line gets thinner.
John:
You could use the audio waveform, I guess, but it just seems like more work than necessary.
John:
And maybe it would help in terms of showing loudness levels or whatever.
John:
But this is a type of UI that...
John:
Most people would think that's stupid eye candy.
John:
And you'd be just like trying to go for an ADA by making this cool iOS 7 looking zoomable waveform at 60 frames per second.
John:
It's like a little OpenGL game embedded in your application.
John:
And there is an aspect of that.
John:
Like it would be neat and cool.
John:
And a lot of people would see it and be like, this seems ridiculous.
John:
But I think there's an actual practical benefit for the five people on earth who want precision when trying to find where they left off on their seven other non-internet connected iPod, you know, podcast playing devices.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
So we're running a little bit longer.
Casey:
Let me ask you a couple of quick questions.
Casey:
One, how much is it going to cost?
Casey:
Do you want to announce that?
Casey:
Nope.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
And you said, you know, you were thinking about some UI things that you were going to make it special that we're going to make overcast special.
Casey:
Is there anything else that you're willing to talk about that would make this special?
Marco:
Nope.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
I just want to make sure we establish that lest we get a million questions about it.
John:
I'll announce the price for them.
John:
It's $100 million, right?
John:
Isn't that what you said on your blog?
John:
That's for the .com.
John:
You just need to sell one copy and you can finally get that .com.
Casey:
You could finally get the .com you've always wanted.
John:
No way.
John:
Didn't he come down to $95?
Marco:
Yes.
Marco:
He came down by $5 million in his first email.
John:
That's right.
John:
You haggled someone down $5 million in price.
John:
You're quite a negotiator.
Casey:
Just like that.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
Does that mean we're done?
Marco:
I think so.
Marco:
All right.
Marco:
Thanks a lot to our two sponsors this week, Squarespace and Ding.
Casey:
And we'll see you next week.
Casey:
John didn't do any research.
Marco:
Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental.
John:
It was accidental.
John:
And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
John:
And if you're into Twitter, you can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S.
Marco:
So that's Casey Liss, M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-E-N-T, Marco Arment, S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse.
Marco:
It's accidental.
Marco:
Accidental.
Casey:
They didn't mean to.
Casey:
Accidental.
Accidental.
Casey:
Wait, so we have a major issue.
Casey:
Archagon in the chat is saying, hey TP guys, I was just in Montreal and I tried the bagels and you were wrong.
Casey:
New York bagels are better.
Casey:
When did we ever say New York bagels were not better?
John:
I certainly never said that.
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Marco:
I never said that.
Marco:
Well, most of us are going to be at Singleton in a couple of weeks in Montreal, but
Marco:
I've never had the bagels in Montreal.
Marco:
I've just heard that I should.
Marco:
The same.
Marco:
Yeah, so I've gone there over the last two years for Singleton, but I still have never had the bagels there.
John:
I've already had the bagels for Montreal, so one up on you guys.
Marco:
Oh, Mr. Fancy.
John:
I've talked about it.
John:
I mean, they're a thing.
John:
It's like Chicago pizza.
John:
It's not what I expect from pizza.
Marco:
It's using the same word to describe what should be a different food classification.
John:
I mean, you could still call it a thing.
John:
It's a regional bread product shaped in a ring.
John:
it's a Montreal bagel it's like you know I mean and granted mine had endured the how long does it take to get down from Boston because mine were basically purchased and then driven down to Boston and then I ate them and so it's not that long a couple times five six hours probably yeah it's I mean they weren't super fresh but they were you know made that day
Casey:
Yeah, Chicago pizza, though, that's not pizza.
Casey:
That's like pie or cake or something.
John:
I know.
John:
It's the same type of thing.
John:
The Montreal bagels are very kind of doughy, and they're a little bit misshapen and differently sized, but it's fine.
John:
They're just not New York bagels.
Marco:
They're Canadians.
Marco:
They're a little bit off.
John:
They're more than a little bit off.
John:
No one would confuse.
John:
If you took a New York bagel and that thing next to each other, no one would be able to... You could tell they were different.
John:
Maybe you wouldn't know which is which, but you would know these are clearly different.
Casey:
Do they apologize when you bite into them?
John:
Maybe.
John:
Are you resisting the hairlines in Overcast UI?
Marco:
I have like one or two.
Marco:
Actually, I'm doing most of the UI design myself, but I'm running everything by Louis Mantia.
Marco:
And so he's kind of like an editor of my insane ideas sometimes.
Marco:
So my first pass at the play, rewind, fast forward icons, I'm doing as many of the graphics as I can.
Marco:
I'm drawing them procedurally.
Marco:
So I had them all as just a stroke at the thin outline.
Marco:
And Louie's like, what are you doing?
Marco:
Fill those.
Marco:
And I did, and it looked better.
Marco:
So I'm keeping this.
Marco:
I really don't like most of the iOS 7 icon designs, like the action or toolbar icons, them being so thin and hairline, being outline-based rather than being filled shapes.
Marco:
I'm not crazy about that.
John:
Did you put in the Skype thing about that?
John:
i haven't opened it yet though yeah like it was someone i feel the same way a lot of people i think feel the same way because we see all of them and like your eyes just rebel and and you start to think that these must be worse in some measurable way because of how much they annoy us and then like some guy went out to measure it and he was not successfully able to prove that they're worse and doesn't mean they're not worse but he didn't do it so uh but i feel that way too like there's a
John:
There's a sameness to them.
John:
And it's not just a sameness to them in terms of recognition.
John:
There's a lightness.
John:
Like, everything in the UI can't be light.
John:
You know?
John:
Right.
John:
Filling them is not so much that they were bad when they were outlines and that you shouldn't do outlines.
John:
It's just that if everything else on the page is an outline, and they're an outline, too, it just becomes this, like, it's like a list programming.
John:
It's like fingernail clippings and oatmeal.
John:
It just becomes...
John:
the sameness of like everything is outlines when everything is outlines you know nothing stands out whereas you can make some things hairlines and like those are once you fill them they're probably the biggest solid color recognizable shapes on the page and it's like oh yeah now i see where the play and the pause button are right off the bat i don't have to scan 17 little things of outlines
Marco:
So yeah, I think I'm still experimenting with a lot of the visuals.
Marco:
The playback screen, I'm pretty well set for the design for 1.0 of the playback screen.
Marco:
All the other screens, like the navigation, the lists, the playlists.
Marco:
Oh my god, I just realized I have playlists.
Marco:
All of those screens are pretty much undesigned right now.
Marco:
They all just have placeholder table views and collection views and stuff.
Marco:
But I'm working on that.
John:
We should do every show from now on.
John:
I'll give you a feature suggestion because I already have like two more queued up for the next two shows.
John:
That's great.
John:
Yeah, let's do it.
John:
And you should implement none of them.
John:
I'll just keep suggesting them and explaining why you shouldn't implement any of them.
John:
But why, if you did, I would be the one person to use them if I actually used an app like yours, which I don't.
Casey:
So what you're saying is you would pay $95 million if he actually implements all these things.
John:
I don't know.
John:
I still like physical buttons.
John:
I listen to podcasts, you know, when I'm on the move and I'm in the car, you know, like in places where I can't look to touch a touchscreen.
Marco:
That's why the now playing screen is so hard to design because you want to have everything at easy reach, but...
Marco:
For me, I also listen to podcasts a lot while I'm on the move, while I'm walking or in the car or something.
Marco:
And so I can't – either in the case of the car where I really can't look at the screen most of the time or in the case of walking where I can look at the screen but I'm moving and so I'm not going to be that precise with my touches and I'd rather not have to look at the screen for longer than I have to.
Marco:
There's all these conditions where having a bunch of tiny controls and trying to cram all this functionality into one screen while also making it look good and making it hard to hit the wrong thing, it's very hard to find the balance there.
Casey:
How's the review coming, John?
Casey:
Any new news?
Casey:
I know it was pretty much done.
John:
Some new benchmarks.
John:
I've got to update some more graphs.
John:
I've spent some time squishing my JPEGs.
John:
You know, it's like just waiting around.
John:
The RS people are doing copy editing now.
John:
They're copy editing text that we know is not final.
Marco:
Nice.
Marco:
How does the most recent beta feel?
Marco:
Does it feel releasable?
John:
I guess.
John:
I mean, like, now that everything works, and now that most of the, you know, the iCloud stuff seems to... Because that's the other part of it.
John:
It's like, are these bits on disk or, you know, not on disk, but are these bits that you're downloading ready to ship versus are the bits on Apple servers somewhere ready to ship with them?
John:
And half of it is the servers because for the longest time, like...
John:
You know, iCloud stuff was like not working.
John:
It was crazy wonky.
John:
Was it because of the client side stuff?
John:
Was it because of the server side stuff?
John:
But now when you have the same build, like DPA has been out for a while and it's gotten better, I think.
John:
And it's like, well, the bits haven't changed on disk, so it must be Apple servers getting better.
John:
it's close like if i don't think they could say hey the dp8 you've had the whole time as the gm because like they're not in a hurry obviously they're not in a hurry they're shipping the imax without with uh with mountain lion right yeah it's kind of weird huh yeah i mean they're just they're not in a hurry i mean but that is like totally now it's thinking like oh i you know if they're gonna do that they didn't mention anything about a free upgrade so maybe you know mavericks is gonna be free i don't know if it is be good to tell me so i could write about that uh
John:
But they're close.
John:
If they say the next build is GM, I would not be shocked.
Casey:
So you don't sound too stressed, which is good.
John:
Well, it's like, what can I do about it at this point?
John:
At this point, I don't even want to look at it anymore.
John:
I just want to know the information, update the final text, give it one last read-through to make sure I'm not crazy, and make a bunch of books.
John:
The second phase of it is just fighting with the e-book stores and getting everything upright on the website so everything works and fixing broken links and doing all the stuff that you do.
John:
I want to move on to that phase.
John:
to know how spectacularly I'm going to screw up the e-book part of it this year.
Casey:
Do you want to tell us how long it is?
John:
It's like the same length as last one.
John:
It's a little bit shorter, I think.
John:
I mean, like, in terms of words, it's a little bit shorter, but in terms of, you know, size and number of the screenshots, maybe it's similar, but the screenshots are all retina.
John:
So volume-wise, in terms of megabytes, it's like twice as big because, you know, that's where all the size is.
John:
So...
John:
It's not that long.
Casey:
You know, it's funny when our splits it across, you know, 39 pages, because that's how long it is.
Casey:
That is one of the few times that like an in tech or non tech or whatever, whatever it's called.
Casey:
Those are like the only times that being split across 100 pages.
Casey:
I do not find annoying.
John:
And I split it across the pages.
John:
They don't paginate it.
John:
Like, when I did my initial run of paginating, I tried to do it on logical sections.
John:
Like, here, I'm talking about this.
John:
Okay, now I'm going to talk about that.
John:
Okay, now I'm going to talk about that.
John:
And sometimes you're talking about something that goes on for a long time, like the energy, about energy-saving stuff.
John:
Like, there's a lot of energy-saving stuff in there because that's a lot of what Mavericks is about.
John:
Clearly, that section needs to be cut up into sections.
John:
So, like, here's, like...
John:
Parts one and two of that section and the next page is parts three and four or whatever.
John:
And I just do my initial logical run through and I end up with way too many pages.
John:
And then I go back and say, okay, well, you know, I start, I start counting how long the pages are in terms of page downs.
John:
Like how many times can I hit page down before I hit the bottom of this quote?
John:
page and it varies wildly because one could be like four page downs and the other one could be like seven or eight and like one quote unquote page is twice as long as the other it's like yeah but i do want to split into logical sections so i play with that up to the last minute trying to strike a balance between
John:
So logical breaking points where you can be like, all right, I'm done with page two or page three and then know where you want to come back to.
John:
And also not leaving any pages super short or any pages ridiculously long.
John:
It's not easy to do because when I write it, I don't have that in mind.
John:
This is all a post-processing step.
John:
So I ended up initially with way more pages than last year and I've been cutting it down slowly to be like same number or fewer pages than last year.
Casey:
Nice.
Casey:
You know, I think I've just figured out when it is that you should stop writing the reviews.
Casey:
And that's when somebody makes like a killer infographic about how many links you had per review and how many words and how many occurrences of how many of these particular words and a, and a tag cloud.
Casey:
Cause that's still trendy.
Casey:
Right.
Casey:
And when that mega infographic happens, kind of like who the, the person that did like the mega research into maybe it was David Smith, actually, but whoever did the mega research into a hypercritical show lengths and all that stuff.
Casey:
When that moment happens, that's when you can mic drop and walk away.
John:
I think that's already happened.
John:
And if you look at all the trends, it's like they got longer and longer.
John:
They peaked around Tiger and now they're getting shorter and shorter.
John:
But again, I don't measure my things.
John:
I'd rather have a fewer number of higher quality words than more crappier words.
Casey:
We have one more important thing to discuss on the air.
Casey:
How about that new M3 slash M4?
Marco:
Oh, man, that looks awesome.
John:
Send me a link because you guys have been talking about it, and every time I click on that stupid Beamer whatever forum thing on my iPod Touch, the page is unreadable because people don't understand that mobile devices exist.
John:
So send me it again.
Marco:
Well, to be fair, it's like a PHP BB site, so it's basically stuck in 2002.
John:
You should look at that page on your phone now.
John:
It's the craziest page I've ever seen rendered on a phone in my life.
Marco:
No, there's no way I'm looking at that on my phone.
Marco:
I like my phone.
Marco:
My phone's brand new.
Casey:
I'm not going to break it.
Casey:
I just put the link in the chat.
Casey:
I think this is the one we were passing around earlier.
John:
Wow, I never would have guessed that this is what it looks like.
Marco:
Yeah, and this is like a big hack to the forum.
Marco:
Also, they always do this on this site.
Marco:
They'll have their big info block sections.
Marco:
They'll have a thread for each thing.
Marco:
Yeah, it does look ridiculous on phones.
Marco:
But you can see the big news here is the very powerful engine.
Marco:
So the big news is that it's a twin-turbo inline-six, which we knew it would be an inline-six, and we knew it would be turbo.
Marco:
Number of turbochargers is new information, although it's pretty obvious.
Marco:
And...
Marco:
The biggest news is, you know, we knew it would have a little over 400 horsepower.
Marco:
So apparently it's roughly 430 and tons of torque.
Marco:
The biggest news, though, is that the thing is really light.
Marco:
It's it's the curb weight they're saying is, quote, under 3300 pounds or under 3306 pounds.
Marco:
And that's really good.
Marco:
I mean, for a car to have 430 horsepower and be that lightweight is really, really impressive.
Casey:
Yeah, it's going to be nice.
Casey:
And the interesting thing to me was that it's basically my motor with another turbo and much better internals.
Casey:
And 18 pounds of boost is a load of boost.
Casey:
I mean, that is ridiculous.
Marco:
And what does your car weigh, just for comparison?
Casey:
Now, I have an xDrive, which makes it worse.
Casey:
But I want to say it's like 36, 3700 pounds, something like that.
Casey:
I don't remember offhand.
Casey:
Let me see if I can find it.
Casey:
E90, whoops.
Marco:
3560, it looks like.
Casey:
Well, you type better and faster than I do, apparently.
Casey:
Is that an XDrive or not an XDrive?
Casey:
And you said how much?
Marco:
3560 on this one site.
Casey:
Okay.
Casey:
So, yeah, I mean, and I have, what, 300 horsepower or something like that?
Casey:
Yeah, exactly.
Casey:
So you're talking about 130 more horsepower and, what, 300, 400 pounds less, 500 pounds less?
Marco:
About 250 less, roughly.
Casey:
Okay.
Casey:
I mean, that's going to be ridiculous.
Casey:
It's going to be absolutely ridiculous.
Yeah.
Marco:
And they also made some moves to try to push the center of gravity lower.
Marco:
They have a carbon fiber roof if you delete the sunroof, and a few other little tricks that they're pushing the weight lower.
Marco:
So basically, it's probably going to be a really, really good car for enthusiasts.
John:
The LaFerrari is, what, 2,100 pounds?
John:
900 horsepower?
John:
Really the center of gravity.
Casey:
Is it really that little?
Marco:
I believe you can buy probably about 10 M3s for the price of the Ferrari LaFerrari.
John:
Then it'll just weigh even more.
John:
That was supposed to be the goal for the new M's, right?
John:
To actually make them lighter than the non-M variants, which is a change from recent years.
Marco:
Yeah, that was.
Marco:
That was exactly the goal.
Marco:
Try to keep roughly the same horsepower, but go to a natural V8 to a turbo i6 and save a bunch of weight.
Marco:
That was the goal.
Marco:
And yeah, it looks like they definitely have.
Marco:
And of course, to make both of you happy, it still comes with a manual transmission.
Marco:
As it should.
Marco:
It has automatic rev blipping.
Marco:
As it should not.
Marco:
No, no, it's optional.
Casey:
I thought it wasn't optional.
Casey:
I thought it was hard-coded.
Marco:
No, somewhere I read that the way they do... Oh, no, it's how they do it on the M5, and I'm pretty sure it's going to be the same here, where in Sport Plus mode, it does not rev blip, so that you can still heel-toe if you want to.
Casey:
Oh, see, as someone who does heel toe regularly, I can tell you there are few feelings better in the world than doing a perfectly rev matched heel toe downshift while braking.
Casey:
I mean, it's just fantastic.
Casey:
And so having that taken away from me would really suck.
John:
We should take the synchros out of your car too, Casey.
John:
Be more excited.
John:
How about the electric starter?
John:
Take that out.
John:
Well, you're rev matching in a car with synchros.
John:
There's no matching required.
John:
Yes, I understand you want to get the engine up to more RPM.
John:
It serves a purpose, but I wouldn't call it rev matching.
Marco:
The big question mark here, I think, is the electric steering.
John:
Yeah, I was going to say, is this a hydraulic steering or no?
Marco:
It doesn't.
Marco:
And it's a brand new electric steering system that the M division was not happy with the regular one on the new 3 Series.
Marco:
I don't blame them.
Marco:
It's terrible.
Marco:
I've driven a couple of the new 3 Series cars, and I like them in every other way, except that steering really is just totally numb.
Marco:
It feels like Tiff's Lexus.
Casey:
I have not noticed that.
Casey:
I have not noticed that.
Casey:
Now, I've only driven the new F33 series a couple times.
Casey:
It was always quickly.
Casey:
But I was actually, I had lunch with a friend of mine, Brad, who has a F30 328 Sport line.
Casey:
And I didn't drive his car today, but I have in the past.
Casey:
And I've never noticed it.
Casey:
But again, I've only driven them very briefly.
Casey:
It never really chucked them around very much.
Casey:
So I'm not saying you're wrong.
Casey:
I'm just saying I never found it to be egregious.
John:
Yeah, it didn't feel good to me.
John:
Anyway.
John:
I've never driven any of these, but every review I've read of every car company's first generation electrical steering, everybody hates.
John:
It doesn't matter if it's BMW, Honda, because it takes a while to figure out how to do it right.
John:
And so this is a second crack.
John:
And it's kind of good that they waited for the M car because either you go with a hydraulic system that they knew had down pat, but it's kind of like old tech and you get worse mileage and blah, blah, blah.
John:
Or go with the new tech, but wait.
John:
So you at least get to be the second generation electric steering system.
Marco:
I think what we're seeing here, and people have talked about this before, there's the big softening of these cars.
Marco:
BMW is becoming closer to Lexus.
Marco:
Lexus is trying to become more like BMW.
Marco:
BMW is a major luxury car maker, and the market demands a soft ride and a soft feel and easy turning of the wheel and stuff like that.
Marco:
There's all these things that the market demands that...
Marco:
that enthusiasts hate but the fact is if you look around at people on the road who you see driving 3 Series and 5 Series cars you see I would say the vast majority of them would not want
Marco:
firmer, more direct-feeling steering.
Marco:
And the vast majority of the people I see on the road, I would guess they would like the softer, cushier, more disconnected ride.
Marco:
And so now what we're seeing is, in a lot of previous generations, the M cars weren't that different from the regular consumer variants.
Marco:
Now I think this is the beginning of them starting to be more different by a lot.
Marco:
That...
Marco:
Because the goals are totally different.
Marco:
The enthusiasts want a totally different set of things a lot of the time, not all the time, but a lot of the time as the rest of the customers.
Marco:
And so we're seeing the regular 3 Series and 5 Series become bigger, heavier, softer.
Marco:
And then now we're going to see these M variants take it to a more extreme enthusiast direction where they're...
Marco:
They're more expensive, but they're lighter.
Marco:
There's more carbon fiber.
Marco:
They use more highly-tuned engines, and they have more enthusiast-friendly transmission options and firmer suspensions and all these crazy new steering technologies, stuff like that.
John:
The chat room is complaining about my rev-matching comment on the synchros.
John:
Did you understand what I was saying, Casey?
Casey:
Well, yeah, because in theory, with synchronized gears, you don't actually have to rev match.
John:
You're not matching the revs so the gears can mesh together because the synchronization of that for you.
John:
That's what I would call rev matching.
John:
When you're heel-toeing, you're just trying to get the RPM of the engine up so that it's not like – because it takes a while for an engine to go from low RPM to high RPM.
John:
So if you want to be braking, but you also want to be getting ready for the downshift that's coming so get the engine revs up, you know, like –
John:
it's not you're not matching there's no matching type thing you just want the revs to be higher because you know you're going to be changing i guess you're kind of matching them because in the lower gear the range and rpm will have to be higher at your current speed and if the engine rpm is lower and you shift into a lower gear then you get engine braking blah blah blah that's what i was getting at not saying that you would you would like to double clutch although i can imagine casey is the kind of person who would also double clutch in a car with synchro just because it's fun
Casey:
I would.
Casey:
But no, they're not dog gears.
Casey:
So you're absolutely right.
Casey:
And my friend, Bob Barker, I mean, Keith in the chat also points out it helps to avoid weight transfer.
John:
Yeah, because it's engine braking.
John:
If you're switching into a lower gear and the engine is going at the appropriate speed for the higher gear that you were in, once you switch into the lower gear and re-engage everything, you're going to get engine braking if your revs are not higher.
John:
But you're in the middle of braking in the turn, so you want to get the revs up.
John:
So when you do the downshift, then you'll, you know...
John:
And the weight transfer is because the car accelerates.
Casey:
Right.
John:
Happy, everybody?
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
Defending his honor.
Casey:
Mic drop not included.