Rock It in the Right Direction
Marco:
I had to re-expand my Audio Hijack window from the tiny little size that fit on the LG Ultrafine last week.
Casey:
Oh, the struggle!
Casey:
The struggle with your mere 5Ks, but now you're back with all six of them.
John:
But still not tiny enough.
John:
I know they did an update to Audio Hijack, probably partially in response to me complaining that you couldn't make the window small enough, and so they made it so you can make the window smaller.
John:
And I can make it narrow enough now, but I can't make it short enough.
John:
I got to fit into the little corner of my screen where it goes.
Casey:
So, you know, I was going to unload on YouTube about how ridiculous you are.
Casey:
The YouTube with your 6K monitors are somehow pressed for real estate, apparently.
John:
I have a few windows open.
John:
I'm not sure if you heard.
Casey:
Oh, God.
John:
Yeah.
John:
I can't move them all anymore.
John:
We'll talk about that in a little bit.
John:
They're still open.
Casey:
Too soon, John.
Casey:
Too soon.
John:
I'm picturing like a tile puzzle.
John:
There's no room to move them.
Casey:
That's it.
John:
No, that's not what I mean.
John:
I'm talking about the thing that got cut out of last week that is returning in this.
Casey:
Yeah, yeah.
Casey:
But no, here it is.
Casey:
I was going to make so much fun of you for you and your 6Ks apiece.
Casey:
But I have two 5K monitors.
Casey:
Do I really have 10Ks in front of me?
Casey:
Am I one to throw stones?
Marco:
I assume you have significantly more real estate than we do total.
Marco:
But you can't look at it all at once.
Casey:
That is true.
Casey:
I do need to turn my head.
Casey:
But I have what I consider to be my primary monitor and then my other stuff monitor.
Marco:
You should get some kind of weird glasses, binoculars thing so that one goes to one eye, one goes to the other, and you can make a stereoscopic image with your two 5Ks.
Casey:
Yeah, I should look into that.
John:
Casey's a predator.
John:
He's not prey.
Casey:
His eyes are in the front of his head.
John:
Always on offense, never defense.
John:
Always on offense.
John:
There it is.
Casey:
All right, so speaking of being on offense, guess what time it is, baby?
Casey:
It's merch time.
Casey:
The ATP store is back, and John got a hold of it, so nobody's going to care.
Casey:
But I have to put on the happy face anyway, so here we go.
Casey:
We have all the Mac Pro shirts you could ever want.
Casey:
We have a brand new design, the Mac Pro Believe shirt.
Casey:
I have to explain this one, Casey.
Casey:
Okay, please feel free.
John:
So in 2019, when they redid the Mac Pro...
John:
One of the things I did, I don't know, that was the launch of WWC, right?
John:
I think I did this for like the holiday store.
John:
I'm like, the new Mac Pro is out, right?
John:
At that point, I didn't even have one.
John:
But, you know, we knew what the design looked like.
John:
It was all over Apple's website.
John:
I decided I'm going to try to make some kind of merchandise related to the Mac Pro.
John:
So what I did was I made a big vector drawing of a front view of the big Mac Pro tower with all the holes in it and everything.
John:
uh at a pretty high level of detail still just line art right but i made the whole thing from top to bottom front view um and i could not figure out how to make make a shirt out of that because it just looks weird i tried all sorts of designs i tried just showing holes i just tried just showing one of the holes it was just it turns out it's a weird design of a computer it is but like it was hard to make it was hard to put it on a shirt in a way that worked in any so i just forgot about it right
John:
Well, but I kept the files around.
John:
So for this WWDC, I had an idea for a message that I wanted to send to Apple.
John:
And I said, you know what I can use for that message?
John:
That old Mac Pro thing.
John:
So I dug it back out and I found a way to make it into a shirt.
John:
it's not the world's greatest shirt but it is a shirt really selling it john really yeah here's the message i'm sending well the message i'm sending because at this point so that was 2019 here we are in 2023 and we're all waiting for the mac pro that apple said what two years ago at the end of that uh that presentation for whatever they were announcing like there's one more mac to go and that's the mac pro that story it's a story for another day john that's a that's a that'll have to wait for another day and we've all been waiting and waiting and waiting
John:
It could be that at WWDC this year, they announced the Mac Pro, or maybe they don't.
John:
Either way, my dream is to have somebody, maybe even me, but right now I'm not currently going to WWDC because I have no ticket, but I would like somebody or some buddies
John:
To be wearing this shirt and to be visible at Apple Park in person at WWDC for their little we're going to show you the video in person type thing.
John:
Because what's on this shirt is a front view of the top of the current Mac Pro tower.
John:
And then a single word underneath it.
John:
It says believe.
John:
And what am I trying to say?
John:
I'm trying to say, Apple, we here out in the audience, we believe in the Mac Pro.
John:
We want it to exist.
John:
We want you to ship it.
John:
We don't want you to cancel it.
John:
We don't want to have to wait five years between revisions all the time.
John:
We believe.
John:
And if we believe hard enough, maybe the Mac Pro will return.
John:
Now, if the Mac Pro has launched at WWC, we're like, hey, I was a believer.
John:
I was wearing the shirt.
John:
And then the announcement, yay, we did it.
John:
And if it's not announced, we can say, we still believe Apple.
John:
Ship this computer.
John:
We want it to exist.
John:
Do we, though?
John:
this is what i feel like i feel like apple you know at wwc granted there's probably very very few people who care at all about the mac pro but i think they exist and i think apple doesn't know they exist because at what point does anyone ever bring up the mac pro to apple it might seem like oh i hear all these developers are here with their laptops and they're going to be writing their apps for their phones and that's what it's all about i want the mac pro people to say we exist we exist in large enough numbers there's at least one of us
John:
at your own apple park with a shirt with a picture of a product you seem not to care about and go years between revising and seem to always want to be canceling or having second thoughts about shipping but you said you're going to ship it we believe you're going to ship it so if i actually end up going to wwc i'm going to wear one of these every day shirts
John:
If it's freezing cold like San Francisco, I'll have a long sleeve shirt on top of it, which will kind of defeat the purpose, but I'll do what I can.
John:
No, no, no.
Casey:
You have to do the long sleeve under it like it's early 2000s and I'm at college.
Casey:
I can't do that.
Casey:
I can't pull that off.
Casey:
No, you have to.
Casey:
It's the rules.
John:
What I ask is for somebody out there who's listening to this and who did win the WWC lottery and is going to be in Apple Park.
John:
Please, at least one of you, talk amongst yourselves, figure out who it's going to be.
John:
At least one of you, buy this shirt, wear it prominently, and make sure Apple people see it.
John:
And when they ask you about it, you can either lie and say, I really care about the Mac Pro and I want you to ship it, or you can tell the truth and say, I don't care about the Mac Pro, but John Syracuse does and I listen to his podcast, so please ship it.
John:
That's my wish.
John:
That's why this shirt exists.
John:
We've got it with black ink and white ink.
John:
That's why there's two different shirts.
John:
The black ink is on white, gray, and yellow, and the white ink is on a whole bunch of different colors.
John:
I think this will be another one of those shirts that goes down in history, kind of like my Mac Pro Trash Can Avenging Angel shirt that not a lot of people bought.
John:
But if you have it, if you're in the know, you're in the know.
John:
Anyway, this is my shirt.
John:
This is my message for this year.
Casey:
John, you shared privately with us that you had a very specific hope for this shirt.
Casey:
You've shared the broad hope.
Casey:
But if you had a reach goal for the shirt and the visibility of the shirt, would you like to share what the reach goal is with the class?
John:
I don't remember what you're referring to.
Casey:
What was my reach goal?
Casey:
Yes, you wanted a particular Apple employee to see the shirt.
John:
Oh, I want them all to see it.
Casey:
I don't have... Yes, but one in particular you were really enthusiastic about.
John:
Did I have to sing somebody out?
John:
I don't know.
Casey:
Yes, you did.
Casey:
You said you wanted to see a Mr. John Ternus see this shirt.
John:
Well, John Ternus, I think he also believes in the Mac Pro.
John:
So I would like him to see it so he can point to his friends and go, see, look at this person.
John:
Look, see, I'm not the only one because sometimes it feels like John Ternus is the only one at Apple who does care about the Mac Pro.
John:
And maybe he can, you know, point to it and, you know, talk to his peers in the org chart and say, you want to cancel the Mac Pro?
John:
There was that one person at Apple Park that one time who wore a shirt with a picture of this product on it.
John:
So now we have to ship it.
Casey:
So maybe if you're not interested in this shirt, maybe what you could do to show solidarity with everyone's favorite podcaster, John Syracuse, you could buy one of these shirts, but...
Casey:
have it shipped to John Ternus care of Apple computer.
Casey:
No, no, no.
Casey:
John Ternus care of Apple computer at whatever the hell they're.
John:
Apple computer.
Casey:
Oh, sorry.
Casey:
Yes.
Casey:
So you get what I'm driving at.
Casey:
If you don't want to buy the shirt for yourself, that's fine.
Casey:
Buy it for John and send the other John, John Ternus and send it to Apple Park, baby.
John:
He's not the one who needs the shirt.
John:
I mean, it'd be nice for him to have one.
John:
You go there and hand him one and say, here's a Mac.
John:
He's never going to wear that because he's a fancy executive.
John:
They don't wear T-shirts, but whatever.
Casey:
That's true.
John:
um you know he could give it to one of his kids or uses a rag to wash his car or something like that that's what he it seems like he's the one who was talking about the mac pro i feel like he believes in the mac pro maybe cfed doesn't believe in the mac pro maybe tim cook doesn't believe in the mac pro maybe someone should show up at apple park at wwc carrying a 2019 mac pro like that person was carrying the mac se the the store opening in india and he'll be so happy to see us carrying this 50 pound giant thing of aluminum oh please ship this computer anyway that's that shirt
Casey:
Yeah, so seriously, if you're not interested in the shirt, that's fine.
Casey:
If you believe in John Syracuse and his mission for a silly computer that nobody should buy, then buy the shirt and send it to, I think it's one Apple Parkway, according to Wedge in the chat.
Casey:
So send it there and address it to whomever you would like.
Casey:
But yes, so we have the Mac Pro Believe.
Casey:
We have that, like John said, in light ink and dark ink and various different colors.
Casey:
Then we also brought back the ATP six color shirt, but the logo isn't the six colors.
Casey:
It's different shirt colors.
Casey:
That's a little bit curious naming on our part.
Casey:
Sorry about that.
Casey:
But anyway, but the classic ATP logo is the point I'm driving at.
Casey:
And then in solidarity and celebration of Pro Max, because apparently this is John's propaganda season.
Casey:
Then we also brought back from the Disney, I mean, from the ATP vault.
Casey:
The Pro Max Triumph shirt, again, in white or black material.
Casey:
And that is the six color rainbow silhouette, if you will, of all the different Pro Max.
Casey:
Even though I really don't care about the Mac Pro, this is actually a very good shirt.
Casey:
And also, oh, there it is.
Casey:
The ATP logo shirt is down there.
Casey:
And you are welcome, everybody.
Casey:
I have convinced the boys to allow me to bring back the ATP Polo, mostly because I need one.
Casey:
And the ATP hoodie, mostly because I need one.
Casey:
And also, we still have a handful of mugs left.
Casey:
So check all of this out.
Casey:
You can go to atp.fm/.store.
Casey:
However, if you are a member, Marco, tell us what members should do, please.
Marco:
go to your member control panel at atp.fm slash member, and you will get a discount code that you can use during the sale.
Marco:
So please, you know, take advantage if you want.
Marco:
I mean, that's, you know, we're not going to force you or anything, but you can save, what is it, 15% on all the stuff, right?
Marco:
I believe that's right.
Marco:
Yeah, so save 15% by being a member.
Marco:
And that also means that if you're about to buy a whole bunch of merchandise, it might make sense to just become a member directly.
Marco:
Because you might be kind of getting the membership for no additional net cost for a while if you can save 15% on all your merchandise.
John:
We are good web people.
John:
So atp.fm.store has links to the member page where you get your discount, has links to become a member, has all this information in a single paragraph of text because we're not hiding this.
John:
So atp.fm.store is the only URL you need to know.
John:
All the information you need should be there, including things like, hey, is this mug microwave safe?
John:
Yes, the mug is microwave safe.
John:
Is it dishwasher safe?
John:
No, it's hand wash only.
John:
Anyway, all the info is there.
John:
The mugs, by the way, we didn't order any more of them, so we're just selling through our existing inventory.
John:
So if you want a mug, I would get one sooner rather than later.
John:
Everything else, don't worry about the stock.
John:
You order it, we'll make it.
Marco:
I would also say, first of all, that page also contains the typo that I just fixed.
Marco:
Thanks, John.
John:
I was in the process of going to fix that, and I saw it had already been fixed.
Marco:
ColorSoul, that one?
Marco:
Mm-hmm.
Marco:
Yep, all right.
John:
I went and did a search for it, and I'm like, oh, it must already be fixed.
Marco:
Yep.
Marco:
And I would also say that the mugs make very good desk mugs.
Marco:
Like, if you have a mug on your desk to hold pens and scissors and whatever...
Marco:
I've had one on my desk for now, I think two or three years, whenever we made it.
Marco:
It's great for that because it's kind of squat and wide for a mug in that ballpark.
Marco:
And so it really holds a ton of pens and stuff.
Marco:
And it's nice and heavy, so it stays put.
Marco:
So it's a great desk mug.
Marco:
In case your coffee mug collection is totally full, maxed out, or you think your spouse might kill you if you add another one to the cabinet or whatever else, it's also a great desk mug.
John:
I have to make my my pricing pitch slash explanation to, you know, as with everything, prices on all this stuff just continue to go up.
John:
I don't know if it's inflation.
John:
It's just the passage of time.
John:
But yeah, these are expensive shirts.
John:
It's just the way it is.
John:
Part of how we tried to mitigate this was like the six color shirt.
John:
that is all the shirts that only have one color of ink on them they are less expensive than the ones that have seven or eight colors of ink because everyone additional ink colors at a different additional printing pass and that's labor intensive and they cost more to make right so the shirts with just one ink color are less expensive that includes both of the mac pro believe shirts and the atp six color shirts again the six colors refer to the colors of the shirts not the colors of the ink
John:
uh the ones that have lots of different colors on them look really cool but they're also more expensive but in general if you don't care about any of this merchandise you have enough t-shirts you don't care about mugs you don't want a hoodie but you're like but i just want to give money to the show if you want to give money to the show membership is the way to do it even though these shirts are very very expensive the profit margins on them are very very small uh so if you want to give money to the show membership if you want t-shirts
John:
And remember, at least one of you who is going to Apple Park for WWDC has to buy the Mac Pro Believe shirt.
John:
Again, I leave it to you to figure out who that's going to be.
Casey:
Excellent.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
I will even go so far as to say, this was not planned.
Casey:
I just came up with this.
Casey:
The first 10 people that send me an image of them at Apple Park wearing a Believe shirt that is clearly not Photoshopped or Photoshopped so well that I can't tell the difference...
John:
No, don't include that second part because people can fool you pretty easily.
Casey:
Fair enough.
Casey:
But you know what I'm saying?
Casey:
Just be honest, people.
Casey:
Be honest.
Casey:
First 10 people, I will send an ATP sticker.
Casey:
So send me.
Casey:
You can find my email address on the internet.
Casey:
It exists.
Casey:
Send me a picture.
Casey:
Send me your mailing address.
Casey:
And if you're one of the first 10 people, I will send you a sticker and I will bill John for the labor involved and the posters.
John:
You're pretty optimistic if there's going to be 10 people wearing the shirt and go to WMDC.
John:
Well, we'll see if we can pull that off.
John:
And I feel like if you if you get like a selfie with an Apple executive, a prominent actual executive that we recognize and you show them your shirt in the selfie case, it will give you more than one sticker.
Casey:
I can confirm.
Casey:
Can confirm.
Marco:
And if you happen to be in the background when Tim Cook takes his PR shot next to whatever the new product is, extra points for that.
Casey:
Let's just say that if you really go above and beyond and can prove it, we are not above comping you ATP membership for life.
Casey:
I'm not saying we will.
Casey:
I'm saying it is on the table.
John:
You're just making work for Marco.
John:
I don't think we have the ability to do that.
Casey:
I'm not sure that we do.
Casey:
I think we do.
Casey:
I'm pretty sure we do.
Casey:
All right.
John:
I don't remember what things we've implemented or not.
Casey:
We can make it happen.
Casey:
So, well, I'm not saying we will, but I'm saying we will.
Casey:
It is on the table if you really, really go above and beyond.
Casey:
So, yeah, to recap, atp.fm slash store.
Casey:
If you are a member or become a member, which you can do at atp.fm slash join, then you get a discount code.
Casey:
You can check for that on your member page.
Casey:
But anyway, atp.fm slash store.
Casey:
Mac Pro Believe in black or white ink, the ATP in white ink on various color shirts, the Pro Max Triumph on black or white shirts with rainbow of colors, the OG ATP logo shirt, the ATP polo is back for the first time in a couple of years, the ATP hoodie, and there are a handful of mugs.
Casey:
ATP.fm slash store.
Casey:
I will do the lecture about not forgetting another week since we've gone on for a while, but don't be that person.
Casey:
Don't do it.
John:
Oh, yeah, we should tell them that the sale ends on Saturday, May 6th.
John:
So that's how long you have.
John:
Indeed.
Casey:
Let's do some follow up.
Casey:
If you are an ATP listener or a member, excuse me, and listen to the bootleg, then you got a whole bonus section that we ended up cutting from the released version of the show last week.
Casey:
Because, John, you've been on a journey.
Casey:
So can you recap what's going on here?
John:
Last week, I talked about a bug I was experiencing that I thought maybe would get resolved on its own, but wasn't getting resolved.
John:
And so I was, you know, taking advantage of the fact that I have a podcast to bring this bug to the attention of Apple.
John:
Of course, by then I had already filed the feedback with all the information I had available.
John:
I just wanted Apple folks to know.
John:
But after the bootleg was released, but before the edited episode was released, I thought I had fixed the bug.
John:
And I was going to still talk about it in this episode because I thought the way I had fixed the bug was interesting.
John:
What had happened was through various back channels, Apple people had been made aware of the feedback I had filed.
John:
And they had sent a message back out of Apple to me to say...
John:
Oh, hey, I don't think anyone else has seen that issue.
John:
It might just be a you thing.
John:
I don't see any similar reports or whatever.
John:
And that made me think that tiny little piece of information, which I got zero information from feedback, obviously, but that tiny piece of back channel information made me think, huh, if they haven't seen any similar reports and this bug is like 100% reproducible for me, maybe it's a me thing.
John:
So I investigated further and I was like, let me just look at what else is on my system.
John:
Do I have any weird stuff on here?
John:
And I started disabling system extensions and looking if I had any old kecks laying around.
John:
And lo and behold, something that I did fixed it.
John:
I removed a bunch of third-party software and the problem went away.
John:
And so I was like, you know, this week's follow up was going to be see what even just the tiniest bit of feedback can do.
John:
This bit of feedback, again, back channeled, not through the actual feedback system, because that doesn't work.
John:
Well, the only information was, huh, we don't seem to have similar reports or, you know, we don't see a lot of reports like that.
John:
That tiny piece of information got me to reconsider whether this is actually a bug in the released OS or whether this is a bug that has something to do with me specifically or whatever.
John:
I'm like, look, and that helped me to fix it.
John:
That's what I was going to say on this week's episode.
John:
But actually, apparently, whatever I did to quote unquote fix it didn't actually fix it.
John:
Shortly after the episode was released with that part of the episode cut out, the bug came back and it is still with me right now.
John:
So I refiled the bug because at that point I had closed the feedback and said, oh, this was just a me thing.
John:
Here's what I disabled and it fixed it.
John:
But no, it's back.
John:
And I double and triple checked everything in my system.
John:
I am running no third party kernel extensions, no third party system extensions.
John:
and the bug is still here, what is the bug?
John:
I posted about it in Mastodon.
John:
I'll put a link in the show notes for real this time.
John:
So you can see the video of me experiencing the bug.
John:
It's that when I grab a window, any window, and move it around, it lags behind my cursor like crazy and jumps all over the place.
John:
And it does it in response to how many other windows are visible on the screen, either below it or near it.
John:
So if you hide all other windows, or if you take a window way up in the corner of the screen and push all the other windows away from it,
John:
window dragging works fine but if you drag the window near other windows it gets super laggy and freaks out and starts jumping all over the place and i think it has to do with something some part of the the you know mac os window manager server thingy that does like the window snapping so when you bring windows close to another window it will like snap to the edge before it goes over it or whatever this started happening immediately after mac os 13.3 was released so like well here you go it's a 13.3 bug this didn't happen before now it's happening all the time
John:
I thought I had fixed it because I had been doing all those restarts and removing system extensions.
John:
It does stay away after a reboot for a little while, but it always comes back.
John:
Just before the show, in fact, I rebooted just because it was happening.
John:
My computer was all laggy with dragging windows all day.
John:
I'm like, let me just reboot so I have a fresh computer for the podcast.
John:
But I have no doubt that within a few hours or maybe by tomorrow morning, this bug will be back.
John:
And it's terrible for someone like me because all I do all day is open and close the windows and drag them around.
John:
And it becomes almost untenable to drag stuff around because...
John:
It's really slow and really laggy and really jumpy.
John:
I included a spin dump of the window manager process, which jumps to 100% CPU when I drag a window around.
John:
I included a video of me dragging a stickies window around, seeing how incredibly laggy it is.
John:
Everything else in the system is fine.
John:
There's no other processes that are using CPU, plenty of free RAM.
John:
You know, it's like the system is not stressed, but window dragging freaks out.
John:
So please, Apple, figure out what this is and fix it, because apparently whatever I thought it was, that's not it.
John:
is it possible that you have too many gpus in your fancy mac pro i mean i suppose i could remove one but like again this never happened until like immediately after mac os 13 point i updated to 30.3 so i have to think it's an os update thing you know i gotta say that i'm not having that particular problem on my lowly macbook pro marco are you having any problems on your piece of garbage macbook pro
Marco:
No, no, not at all.
Marco:
In fact, my MacBook Pro, which only has, well, depending on how you define it, either one or like 38 GPUs, is fine.
Marco:
I don't have this problem at all.
John:
Funny how that was.
John:
It's not.
John:
That's what the person said, that it doesn't seem to be widespread.
John:
But when I talked about it on Amastadon, a bunch of other people said they were also having the problem.
John:
Not a lot of people, maybe like four or five, but enough.
John:
And they had all sorts of different computers.
John:
Some of them had MacBook Pros.
John:
Some of them had, I don't think any of them had Mac Pros.
John:
So I'm the only Mac Pro user, but the other people had regular computers and they were also experiencing this.
John:
Some of them said also immediately after updating to 13.3.
John:
So I don't know what the deal is.
John:
I'm curious to find out, but I just want my computer to work right again.
John:
It's a little bit annoying, so.
John:
Please, Apple.
John:
I guess the new feedback number is FB121-221-06.
John:
The link will be in the show notes with the feedback number.
John:
Indeed.
John:
Quote, I'm the only Mac Pro user, John Syracuse.
Casey:
Yeah.
Casey:
Remember me?
Casey:
John Syracuse.
John:
Remember this diagnosis?
John:
Remember this spin dump?
John:
I could spin dump one in a manager all day long.
John:
Good grief.
Casey:
All right.
Casey:
So we were talking about how General Motors hates your phone and CarPlay last week.
Casey:
And I stand by everything we said.
Casey:
And I was talking to a friend of the show, Jelly, about this.
Casey:
And Jelly made a really good point.
Casey:
And I got to add a little bit of context.
Casey:
So both my car and Aaron's car have wired CarPlay.
Casey:
I have a 2018 Volkswagen Golf, Golf, whatever.
Casey:
Aaron has a 2017 Volvo XC90.
Casey:
Both of them support wired CarPlay, but I have a little box that I use as an adapter, if you will, to give me wireless CarPlay.
Casey:
In Aaron's car in particular, the infotainment, while good, takes about 13 calendar years to get activated once the car is started.
Casey:
It is really slow to get going, and then once it gets going, it's fine.
Casey:
And I was talking to Jelly about this.
Casey:
Jelly has a Polestar 2, which is a sort of kind of but not really Volvo, that has the Android Automotive that runs all of the infotainment stuff, and it does support CarPlay, I believe, wireless.
Casey:
And Jelly and I were talking about, you know, the last episode and what we were saying on it, and he made a really, really, really good point in that part of why having CarPlay is so nice, Jelly said, is that there's no real reliance on the car's onboard CPU.
Casey:
It's basically just a monitor for the phone.
Casey:
And that is such an obvious thing that I hadn't thought about, and I'm glad that Jelly pointed it out to me, because in Aaron's car, again, the infotainment, once it gets going, isn't bad, but getting it going is awful.
Casey:
And one of the nice things about CarPlay, like Jelly had said, is that no matter how bad the infotainment is, as long as it can handle putting stuff on the screen, which pretty much everything can if he uses CarPlay...
Casey:
That takes away a lot of the problems.
Casey:
Now, this gets exacerbated a little bit if you are a wireless-only car, because that does introduce a smidgen of latency.
Casey:
But still, I thought, well, a smidgen of latency on cars that actually have decent implementations of it.
Marco:
I was going to say, mine's like almost two seconds of latency for everything.
Casey:
Yeah, that's not good.
Casey:
But nevertheless, it is a good point that I hadn't considered, so I wanted to point that out.
Casey:
Continuing on, Nathaniel Irons writes that, at least for now, GM's decision to yank CarPlay or Android Auto only applies to future EV models, with a carve-out not just for gas vehicles, but also future model years of their EVs now for sale.
Casey:
There's NARS Technical Links that discuss this, and Nathaniel continues, GM will feel no pain in sales figures around this decision for at least as long as they keep selling every EV they're capable of manufacturing.
Casey:
But optimistically, GM dealers will still have a chance to see people weighing the tradeoff between EVs like the Bolt, which continue to support phone projection systems, versus the newer lines, which don't.
Casey:
Moving on, Sam Tierney writes in, I recently got the HTA 9 system after your mention, and apparently it's excellent as per Sam.
Casey:
They realized, however, that when using Plex, played via the Apple TV 4K, to play their Blu-ray rips, it can't pass through Atmos or DTS-X, as in the object-based audio, especially the height elements, and Infuse, which is a media player that everyone loves to talk about,
Casey:
breaks down the issues here, including a template for submitting a feedback, our favorite thing these days.
Casey:
We'll put a link in the show notes.
Casey:
But apparently, in short, Apple only supports, and I had actually seen this recently as well, Apple only supports lossy spatial audio used in streaming apps or for Dolby EIC3, for example, and not lossless, again, for Dolby True HD.
Casey:
Currently, only the Nvidia Shield Pro, Dune 4K, and some other Android-based media players support true pass-through audio.
Casey:
Amazon has started to support some of it with the new Fire Cube, though only for Atmos, not DTSX.
Casey:
John, make me care about this.
John:
I mean, I don't think it makes that much of a difference.
John:
Like if you have a Blu-ray player or something, you're probably going to need, well, I always think that receiver is a solution to all these problems because receivers, guess what?
John:
They support all this stuff.
John:
But this is talking about using the Apple TV with the HT-A9, which doesn't need and can't use a receiver.
John:
So it complicates things.
John:
This is kind of one of the trade-offs when you buy one of these systems, whether it be a soundbar or the Sony system or whatever that's like,
John:
This is it.
John:
Buy this and connect it to your TV and you're done.
John:
You don't need a receiver.
John:
And that's true.
John:
But whatever limitations that setup has, you're stuck with them forever.
John:
Whereas if you buy a receiver, the whole point of the receiver is a component and they tend to support all the things that they could possibly support.
John:
So you have flexibility in the future in exchange for having this big giant box that costs a lot of money, right?
John:
um so when i see things like this oh here's this limitation of that just look at the limitations of the setup and if you don't care about them if you're like well i don't even know the differences and i can't hear the difference between you know ac3 versus dtsx and honestly i can't either and most people's speakers aren't good enough to tell either way uh you probably shouldn't care but if you do care one way to uh deal with that is just get a receiver
John:
And make sure it includes all the alphabet soup of stuff that you care about, often to the future.
John:
Buy as future-proof a receiver as you can, and then you don't have to worry about this.
Casey:
That is not the answer I was expecting, but I will allow it.
Casey:
Gilbert Tang writes in to tell us about how to keep dust off your sensors.
Casey:
Tell me about this, please, John.
John:
I do wonder if this is one of those sort of like traditions passed on among photographers with...
John:
potentially not too much scientific testing to see whether it does anything but it doesn't seem like it's harmful anyway here it is kebert says uh provided your lenses and sensors have enough clearance and sony e-mount ones do it's common to add a square of double stick tape to the interior of the lens back and body caps to capture dust during normal movement so you see what they're saying here is there's like a little cap that goes on to to both the
John:
your camera body and also on the part of lenses that attach to your camera body and he's saying put a piece of square of double stick tape there to catch the dust he says i've been doing this for around 25 years this is already suspect and you're doing anything for 25 years like hmm
John:
25 years ago, did we have science?
John:
Anyway, I've been doing this for about 25 years with my Nikon Hasselblad and select like some simply don't have the clearance and Sony gear.
John:
And it's astounding how much sensor cleaning it has saved me.
John:
Plus, it helps sensor shake work even better during cleaning operations.
John:
Also, some cameras close the shutter over the sensor.
John:
I'm not we didn't talk about this last time, but like there is a mechanical shutter and
John:
these cameras that you know goes up and down over the sensor and i always wondered why don't they just close the shutter when you twist off the lens well a whole bunch of them do including the sony a1 a9 a92 a7 r5 a bunch of the recent sonar cameras do that um gilbert continues because the lens back and body cap double stick technique
John:
If I've been doing swaps in dusty environments, I'll actually disable this feature on my bodies that have it simply because the shutter could otherwise keep dust captive.
John:
This I also think is suspect.
John:
It's like, I want the dust to be free so it can hit my magical double stick tape.
John:
It's like, I'd rather just have the shutter because like, where's the dust coming from?
John:
It comes from, I don't know.
John:
Like if the little thing curtain goes down over the sensor when you take it off, I guess dust could get in there and then the shutter goes back up and then the dust is free again and you want it to hit the tape.
John:
I just, I really need to see some simulations of like, this is like whether it's better to run through the raindrops or walk slowly, right?
John:
Is it better to have the shutter closed over your sensor for dust?
John:
Anyway, so he continues.
John:
To be clear, it's a very, it's very temporary and I only do it after the shoot is over and the good vibrations from returning travel help knock stuff loose.
John:
Again, more sort of magical thinking here.
John:
Like I, this double stick tape is for when it's traveling.
John:
So when the cameras are shaking, it'll knock the dust up and the dust will fly around and it will hit against the double stick tape.
John:
All right.
John:
He says, and no, I've never once had a piece of double stick tape dislodge itself.
John:
I suppose this is a risk with poor application or crappy tape.
John:
But yeah, people are doing this with $50,000 RE Signature Primes too.
John:
When it's dirty, I remove the tape, clean the cap interiors with alcohol and reapply.
John:
I'm pretty diligent about it.
John:
So there you go.
John:
One endorsement of the 25 year old technique of sticking double stick tape to catch the dust like it's a Venus fly trap for dust flies.
John:
I mean, I suppose it couldn't hurt because as long as the tape doesn't come off, it's not doing anything bad.
John:
But I am very suspicious of this technique.
John:
I am, however, very interested in eventually getting a camera that closes the shutter over the sensor when you change lenses.
Casey:
Good talk.
Casey:
And then a couple of people wrote to point out to us last week tonight, which is a show I enjoy, or at least watching the segments on YouTube anyway, they did a 25 and a half minute thing on homeowners associations.
Casey:
And
Casey:
It is just as bad as you would expect.
Casey:
It is quite funny.
Casey:
And if you have 25 minutes to kill, I definitely recommend it.
Casey:
We'll put it in the show notes.
Casey:
But yeah, if you're not American and are not familiar with this, I was whining about this a year or two back because I kind of got guilted into being on my homeowners association.
Casey:
And basically in America, if you threaten people's perceived wealth, then they feel justified in doing whatever they want.
Casey:
And
Casey:
homeowners associations are usually like neighborhood groups that have some amount of authority slash control over what the people the homeowners in that neighborhood do and if they do if the homeowners do anything that these people think will quote ruin their property values quote then they get then they get to retaliate and basically any means with any means necessary and it's garbage so if you have 25 minutes to kill it is quite funny and worth watching
John:
so a couple of surprising things that i learned from this was the how prevalent homeowners associations are in the us now uh when i was growing up and even when i was looking for a house it was like yeah some places have homeowners associations but it's kind of like for the ritzy areas with the obnoxious people who don't want you to be able to paint your house any color you want and we just won't look in areas like that or whatever but apparently
John:
something like 82 percent of new home sales in the u.s now uh have homeowners associations like you have no choice if you buy the house you you agree to be subject to the homeowners association uh there is no opting out right 82 that seems really high and you may be wondering why are they so prevalent uh watch the program for some explanations but it comes down to the same usual stuff like there there are now private companies
John:
that sort of administer the homeowners association on behalf of the terrible people who run them and those private companies make money based on how many violations they find so they are financially it's just like having the private you know private prison systems like the incentives are all aligned for everything to go horribly wrong right so private companies should not run prisons private companies should not run homeowners associations the one thing i felt like this segment left out was an explanation of the like what is the accountability mechanism for these homeowners associations it did point out that like
John:
The government can't do anything.
John:
If you have a crappy homeowner association, that's your problem.
John:
It's a private company, private thing that you agreed to, like tough luck.
John:
So don't go crying to the government because they can't help you.
John:
These organizations are not governmental organizations.
John:
And sometimes the homeowner associations do things that in other countries with competent governments are run by the government, like water, sewer, street paving.
John:
Sometimes the homeowners association do that.
John:
So it's not like these associations have no power.
John:
They have tremendous power.
John:
In fact, the program shows them foreclosing on people's homes because they fell behind on the fines they incurred by having shutters that were the wrong color.
John:
It's ridiculous, right?
John:
But what is the accountability?
John:
Presumably the homeowners association is like...
John:
appointed or elected by the people you know by the neighborhood that they run or whatever so if you do get a homeowners association that is doing terrible things like what is their accountability and the program didn't quite make that clear i guess that's a question for casey like say your homeowners association goes evil what what is the recourse that you have do they get elected for some period of time can you vote them out how does that work
Casey:
They do.
Casey:
I mean, I haven't looked at our bylaws in a long time, but generally speaking, to the best of my recollection, they are elected typically annually.
Casey:
And yeah, the homeowners could band together and vote out the jerks.
Casey:
And that in principle is fine.
Casey:
But taking my neighborhood, for example, and I want to say there's like...
Casey:
50 to 100 houses in my neighborhood.
Casey:
I forget exactly how many.
Casey:
Literally nobody wants to be on the HOA, but we are legally compelled to keep an HOA.
Casey:
And if we don't, then the bylaws state that we have to hire one of these HOA firms to do the work.
Casey:
And everyone assumes that that will be a fortune, either because we will have to, you know, the neighborhood as a group will have to pay the firm to do it.
Casey:
Or like you were saying, they will fine us for everything just so they can earn their money.
Casey:
And so as far as I know, right now, our neighborhood, which is supposed to have an HOA leadership board of like five or six people, I think it's a president and a treasurer and that's it.
Casey:
Because that is the bare minimum that we can do to keep from having to farm it out to some other company.
Casey:
And it's been this way for like two or three years now.
Casey:
It's basically since I left.
John:
Yeah.
John:
And I'm assuming the reason the evil ones don't get voted out then is, you know, this is kind of a workaround for, I forget what the laws used to be.
John:
There's tons of laws in the United States that would keep minorities out of the neighborhood, basically.
John:
It was illegal to sell a house to somebody who was Jewish or not white or whatever, right?
John:
That was incredibly common in the U.S.
John:
because that's what our country is founded on.
John:
Yeah.
John:
And that became illegal at some point, ridiculously late, like the 70s or something.
John:
HOAs give you a way around that because, you know, you can't put that into the contract for your home ownership.
John:
But what you can do is find the people who all the other neighbors decide are undesirable and find all the things that are wrong in their property.
John:
And then, you know, levy fines against them in an amount that you decide.
John:
And if the whole neighborhood decides, it's kind of like speeding laws, you know, like...
John:
you could you could pull over anybody for speeding on any given highway right but who do you choose to pull over so you make the bylaws that say hey it's a ten thousand dollar fine per day if your shutters are the wrong color then you find the person you don't want to be in the neighborhood you tell them the shutters are the wrong color everyone shutters are the wrong color but you just enforce that on this person and you're like well why wouldn't the neighbors vote out that hoa well they all don't want minorities in the neighborhood either and so what have you done you've recreated i forget what it's called redlining or whatever you've recreated the unconstitutional
John:
institutional uh recently made illegal practice of uh legally keeping minorities out of your neighborhood you've just done it in a different way with a private company and there's no recourse in the government so america anyway sorry to get depressing yeah it's like if you if you hate your local governments well the alternative is worse so yeah private companies yeah as bad as local government is private companies are usually worse
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Casey:
Apparently, my purchase of the studio display, which I never had buyer's remorse over, although I flirted with a little bit after the camera debacle, which never really got that better.
Casey:
But I also had a little bit of remorse or I flirted with remorse when like weeks after I took delivery of mine, there was reports that, oh, there's going to be a super hot, like high refresh mini LED ProMotion version coming out any minute now.
Casey:
And apparently, no, it's not.
Casey:
Because according to some people who watch the supply chain, we'll put a link to 9to5Mac in the show notes.
Casey:
Apparently, that's not happening.
Casey:
And we aren't going to be getting this new 27-inch display with mini LED and ProMotion after all.
Casey:
Which selfishly, at least right now anyway, sounds good to me.
Marco:
I mean, you probably are eventually.
Marco:
It's so hard to put a lot of faith in what the rumor mill says about any product that's more than a couple of weeks out.
Marco:
Usually when stuff is imminent, you get rumors about it, and that's usually fairly accurate.
Marco:
But when somebody says, like, oh, Apple's working on this new kind of display for release in 2025, well, is that really, like, how accurate is this forecast?
Marco:
And then, you know, the rumor sites start treating it as fact.
Marco:
And then when somebody gets different information that conflicts with that, then they report that.
Marco:
And then the rumor sites say, Apple canceled this display.
Marco:
It's like, what?
Marco:
did they or was your information already bad and you just got different information that might itself also be bad like so it kind of it's it's this whole you know storytelling that we do with with these rumors that oftentimes is based on not a lot of reality or or it's people who have information that they interpret the wrong way or that is actually you know a different product they're telling a different story that than what they're than what they're reporting and so
Marco:
All this stuff, you know, it's it's wise to not put a ton of time and thought into these like far out product rumors.
Marco:
It was a ridiculous concept.
Marco:
And we said so at the time that immediately after the studio display came out, that there were rumors that they were going to, you know, sometime soon make a much better one.
Marco:
Like we know how Apple updates their displays now.
Marco:
The answer is they don't.
Marco:
They update their displays about as often as they update the Mac Pro.
Marco:
Maybe less.
Casey:
Oh, sick burn.
Marco:
That's a twofer.
Marco:
We're lucky they still make displays, and we know they don't offer them very much, very frequently.
Marco:
See, also the Mac Pro on both counts, right?
Marco:
So the idea that they were going to follow up the studio display, which came out, what, a year ago?
Marco:
They were going to follow that up
Marco:
like fairly soon with something that is significantly different and better but replaces that same product category that doesn't make a lot of sense and it didn't make a lot of sense then it doesn't make a lot of sense now and if they do ever update this product i think and i think they eventually will as long as they keep making them at all but if they do update this product it's probably still a few years away and at that point and nothing you hear from the rumor mill today is going to be very accurate about what the details of that might be
John:
I think the reason this particular rumor had legs is, well, first of all, when it originally came out, the rumor was, hey, Casey, you just bought a studio display.
John:
Well, they're going to release a better one like in a month.
Casey:
Yeah, it was like within a couple of months
John:
Yeah, it was ridiculously close, and it was the type of thing where the only way it could possibly be true is if they wanted to launch both of them but couldn't, and so they delayed one of them or something, which occasionally happens, right?
John:
But that was the rumor.
John:
They never update the displays, and you're saying they just released a display and they're going to release an even better one within a month or two?
John:
That seems impossible, and it turns out not to be true.
John:
So that was kind of ridiculous, right?
John:
But the reason this rumor kept going is the one they released...
John:
was less than we thought it might be right not that it was bad or anything it was you know it's a 5k display just like in the 5k mac and they put it in a display like good job and it was weird with the all a13 and the bad camera but like but in other words it was fine right but we know that in the world of technology that apple is competing in better display technology exists other manufacturers and even apple itself have better displays like the mini uh mini led ones that are in their laptops and the you know the fancy ones in their big ipad and you know
John:
Lots of third-party manufacturers make displays that have dynamic backlights.
John:
So we know that's out there.
John:
We know it's not just like an advanced technology that's too expensive.
John:
It's existing products are like that.
John:
So we're like, okay, Apple came out with a studio display.
John:
It's like this.
John:
There's obviously room for them to make a better version of this that has mini LED backlight for better blacks or whatever, or higher refresh rate because ProMotion is a thing, right?
John:
So it's one of those things where there will eventually be a better, again, like Marco said, if they keep making monitors, which is not a given, right?
John:
But if they keep making monitors, we know they're going to come out with that eventually.
John:
So that's why this rumor, despite it saying, oh, it's coming out next week in case he's going to be sad, that was unbelievable and didn't happen.
John:
But the rumor that there will eventually be a better one
John:
makes sense and it's just a question of when and when it's two or three years out you're like yeah i can see that happening a couple years from now they'll probably come out with a new one but a couple years pass in apple land which as happens when you're waiting for the mac pro or a monitor and we start approaching the date that everybody said this thing's supposed to come out and then you start with the rumors of like oh remember we said it was supposed to come out well it looks like it's not gonna
John:
and that feels like a you know the rumor was it's on and now it's off combine this with the persistent rumors ever since the 24 inch iMac came out that apple's going to make a bigger iMac which they also haven't done but anytime there's leaks from like the supply chain of a 27 inch display people like is this for a monitor is this for a 27 inch iMac lots of rumors about 27 inch iMac is like they made a bunch of prototypes they were thinking of making one it never got to the point where they said there's going to be one but they said
John:
that this is a thing Apple has, you know, toyed with internally, made prototypes of, which makes sense.
John:
Like, it makes sense that they would do that, but, you know, they haven't actually released anything and don't actually have any plans to release anything.
John:
But that complicates all the rumors of better 27-inch displays because every single one of them you could be, maybe that was just, like, the big iMac that they were toying with and decided not to make.
John:
So, you know, this, if they still keep making...
John:
27 inch 5k monitors if there is eventually a better studio another studio display it will be better in these ways and it will be good it's just a question of when that happens if they ship a mini led backlight pro motion 27 inch display five years from now
John:
that'll be a little bit late but you know not out of uh out of the realm of possibility for apple and the way they handle monitors should they have shipped one two months after casey got his no that seems silly should they ship one now i think it's perfectly reasonable to ship and i think it's reasonable to ship something like this and still keep the old studio display around because a then you can price this one even higher and apple loves that and b that like some people don't care about mini led or promotion and they should be able to get the cheaper one
John:
So I have my fingers crossed that something about this rumor comes to fruition at some point in the next year or two.
John:
But for now, it's an example of one of those stories that stayed in the news because it makes sense technologically.
John:
It's not a fantasy.
John:
It's not ridiculous.
John:
It makes perfect sense.
John:
It's just that with Apple, what makes perfect sense doesn't always happen.
Casey:
Indeed.
Casey:
I mean, I would love to have a monitor like this.
Casey:
And my dream scenario is that I bump the studio display to be my accessory display, which is the most privileged thing in the world.
Casey:
But nevertheless, and then I have this new fancy Mini LED ProMotion Studio Display 2 as my new primary display.
Casey:
And that would be amazing.
Casey:
But yeah, I mean, it sounds like it's not happening imminently.
Casey:
And, you know, that's all right.
Marco:
You could always get that Samsung thing.
Marco:
Yeah, that's true.
John:
I just said that, you know, the thing that, you know, it makes sense that this would happen, but Apple doesn't always do what makes sense.
John:
Well, this next bullet item is a thing that never really made sense to me, and it looks like it's not happening.
John:
Carry on.
John:
So this is the rumor, we talked about it many, many shows ago, about the quote-unquote solid-state buttons in the new iPhones.
John:
This would be buttons that are like, we keep using this analogy, and I wonder how many people listening don't know what this is, but there was a phone called the iPhone 7 once,
John:
And it had a thing called the home button.
John:
And the iPhone 7 switched the home button from a button that would move up and down like a regular button, right, to a button that did not move, kind of like the trackpads on modern MacBooks and MacBook Pros, but would just vibrate when you pressed it.
John:
And that sounds awful, but it turns out Apple did an amazing job and the home button on the iPhone 7 felt great.
John:
It didn't exactly feel like the actual physical home button, but in many ways I thought it felt better.
Marco:
By the way, for whatever it's worth, not only did I use that home button today, but I also just today arrived in the mail a brand new iPhone.
Marco:
Well, not brand new, but a modern iPhone that I just purchased that has that button.
Marco:
It is the iPhone SE 3 for reasons that are too long to get into now.
Marco:
I bought a refurb really cheap iPhone SE 3 from Amazon to serve.
Marco:
Basically, we are killing Apple Watch family setup from our child's Apple Watch thing.
Marco:
He's outgrown it.
John:
And also, it's really buggy.
Marco:
Oh, my God, it's so bad.
Marco:
Like, okay.
Marco:
Sorry for the rant.
Marco:
So quick diversion, us.
Marco:
The Apple Watch family setup, this is the feature they launched back with the first Apple Watch SE a couple of years ago, where you could set up an Apple Watch for a family member without having a paired iPhone for it.
Marco:
Normally, of course, Apple Watches require them to be paired to a particular iPhone.
Marco:
You can't pair them to iPads.
Marco:
And it has been so buggy for the last few years.
Marco:
We've had problem after problem with family setup.
Marco:
Most common problems are the watch basically doesn't back itself up at all.
Marco:
It thinks it does sometimes.
Marco:
It never actually is.
Marco:
Whatever your kid does on the watch, consider it very temporary data because it will be lost at some point.
Marco:
Usually next time you have to move it to a different OS version or whatever.
Marco:
Or move to a different watch if that one gets upgraded or breaks or dies or whatever.
Marco:
So that's problem number one.
Marco:
All the data on the watch is even more ephemeral and temporary than Apple watches usually are because it doesn't back up to a phone.
Marco:
Even the phone that you set it up doesn't really back it up.
Marco:
Number two, any app that has a phone counterpart where the watch app cannot be installed by itself, like directly from the little tiny watch app store.
Marco:
Any app like that cannot run on a phone with family setup because there is no paired iPhone effectively.
Marco:
So there are no iPhone counterparts.
Marco:
So like, for instance, we just as a family, we've started running together.
Marco:
Tiff is a Nike Run Club person trying to make Adam a Nike Run Club person, just like using their app.
Marco:
We were trying to get Run Club on his watch and you can't really do it.
Marco:
Because it needs the phone paired app and all this stuff.
Marco:
And I'm like, you know what?
Marco:
At this point, this has caused us so many problems.
Marco:
Oh, and family setup is super buggy with cellular, which is the whole point of it.
Marco:
I don't know why it's so buggy.
Marco:
Super buggy with cellular.
Marco:
A lot of times you just can't reach the person.
Marco:
Some of this is the fault of watchOS and the way it handles cellular.
Marco:
Some of it is, I think, due to family setup because of weirdness there.
Marco:
So anyway...
Marco:
i just needed a phone any phone to pair to adam's watch and we're not to be clear the phone is staying in a drawer in my office we're not giving him the phone but it is just any phone that can be paired so it can be treated like a normal apple watch with all the regular code path that way it can at least be
Marco:
the regular level of Apple Watch bugginess, because at least Apple engineers use the watches this way, instead of the extra buggy level of family setup where I don't think anybody who works at Apple uses that feature.
Marco:
And you can kind of tell when there's a feature like that with Apple.
Marco:
So anyway, stay on the commonly used path for Apple success and happiness, and that is pairing it with a phone.
Marco:
And normally, I normally have a drawer full of old phones, and the problem is, all of my old phones, like my two old phones that would have been perfectly candidates for this,
Marco:
are an iPhone 7 with the wonderful home button and an iPhone SE first-gen, neither of which can run iOS 16.
Marco:
And Adam's Apple Watch is on watchOS 9, and it can't be paired to iOS 15 phones.
Marco:
So it's like, okay, now I've got to find something that can run iOS 16 that I also don't need for anything else ever, because it'll be signed into his account, and I'm not going to be putting betas and crap on it.
Marco:
So I basically went and bought an iPhone SE,
Marco:
pretty much for this purpose i can occasionally use it for like os testing here and there or testing on this old form factor but it works fine it was it was like 200 it was super cheap um for like you know refurb for amazon so very very i'm very happy with that and i and i it's kind of amazing like you know i pick up this phone like this thing has it's like either i think it's either an a14 i think it's an a15 in this like it has such incredibly modern computing guts in this thing
Marco:
but to use a phone today as somebody who's used, you know, the face ID style phone since the iPhone 10 to use a new iPhone today that has the new guts, but still has touch ID and the home button and the rectangular screen.
Marco:
It feels so weird and so unbelievably old.
Marco:
It
Marco:
It's shocking how much I feel like I'm going in the past with this brand new, well, mostly new phone that is the current model that Apple sells that I'm pretty sure has an A15 in it.
Marco:
Anyway, that's my rant.
Marco:
Family setup.
Marco:
Goodbye.
Casey:
So out of curiosity, you're not getting any cellular service for the phone then?
Marco:
So far, I don't think I need to.
Marco:
So I was worried that I would need to.
Marco:
So we just left the plan on the watch and we restored the new phone.
Marco:
And I haven't quite figured out location tracking yet.
Marco:
I might have to do some weirdness there.
Marco:
But so far, he was at the playground yesterday and was able to call us.
Marco:
with his watch after it had been paired to this phone.
Marco:
The number, it came from like a random phone number instead of his Apple ID.
Marco:
It was like a FaceTime call, but it came from some, you know, some random phone number that the watch was assigned by AT&T a million years ago.
Marco:
So I don't know...
Marco:
if we're going to be able to keep it that way or if you could set it up new that way if you didn't first set up with family setup i don't know but right now the phone has no cell plan the watch has its you know whatever ten dollar a month cell plan and he's able to call with this phone number so i don't we'll see let's see if this is a stable situation or if at some point you know at&t or apple are gonna you know end this for us but right now we don't need a cell service thing
Casey:
Fascinating.
Casey:
Where were we?
Casey:
Solid state buttons.
John:
Yeah, the solid state buttons on the SE.
John:
We have the SE3 or whatever.
John:
They're still selling them because they still sell phones in that form factor.
John:
Like I said, it's a thing that Apple customers deal with all the time, probably primarily on the trackpads on their MacBooks and MacBook Pros because they're all like this.
John:
They don't actually move up and down to hit some kind of sensor.
John:
You just press on them and your pressure initiates a vibration motor that makes you think you clicked it or something, right?
John:
So the rumor for the iPhone 15 was that the volume up and down and the sleep wake buttons on the iPhone 15, or maybe it was just the pros, I forget.
John:
But anyway, the new iPhones that are coming in the fall, they would be like this.
John:
They wouldn't actually go in and out and press something.
John:
They would be pressure sensitive.
John:
And when you press them, there'd be a little vibration motor that would give a little, you know, wiggle inside there and make you think you have clicked the buttons.
John:
And when we talked about this originally, we were like, all right, I mean, sure, I guess, but that's like two more vibration motors and there's not a lot of space in there.
John:
And it seems really tricky and complicated to do because you got to make sure the buttons work to like turn on a phone.
John:
So there has to be some power going all the time to sense the pressure in them.
John:
Right.
John:
And what happens if the battery goes dead?
John:
And since then, there's been all sorts of stories saying, oh, Apple solved this.
John:
They have a new super duper low power, tiny little chip in there that even when the phone battery itself is 100% dead, still this other presumably tiny dedicated battery, should the super low power system make sure the volume and power buttons still work so you can put it into DFU mode and stuff like that, like that they had found solutions to all these problems.
John:
Still, I was always wondering, okay, but like,
John:
To what end?
John:
Is this just for waterproofing because it's easier to seal them when the buttons don't move?
John:
You know, are the buttons a failure point?
John:
Maybe Apple knows something that we don't about like it turns out that the sleep-wake button or the volume buttons end up failing because people press them a lot.
John:
Like what's motivating this?
John:
But anyway, the most recent rumor is, hey, remember those, quote unquote, solid state buttons on the iPhone 15?
John:
Yeah, they're not doing that this year.
John:
And the rumor is that they were testing them and they just basically had, quote unquote, unresolved technical issues.
John:
And so, I mean, that happens sometimes.
John:
You're pushing the envelope.
John:
You want to do something that is not particularly common in the industry and you want to ship literally hundreds of millions of iPhones with this thing.
John:
The buttons better work and better be reliable.
John:
So if they tested this and it turns out there are some issues they couldn't resolve,
John:
By all means, go back to regular buttons.
John:
Now, the thing I think is interesting about this is this is another one of those rumors, kind of like the display where it's like rumor of thing that's coming.
John:
Actually, the thing we rumored is not coming.
John:
And then the story is like Apple cancels this thing they never announced, right?
John:
I'm sure Apple tries all sorts of things with their phones.
John:
But as iPhones, which are heavily leaked products, get closer and closer to their launch day or more precisely closer and closer to the point where the factories start churning these things out to be ready for launch day so they can ship hundreds of millions of them all over the world.
John:
We learned basically everything about them, short of their names, colors and prices and stuff like that.
John:
Oh, I bet it's going to be called iPhone 15.
John:
In this case, we're getting close off to the point now where people are like 3D printing the exact shape from the, you know, the quote unquote CAD files for the things you can see exactly what the phones are going to look like.
John:
down to the curvature of the case, you know, is this is so that people who make iPhone cases can manufacture them to fit exactly on the stuff like what the cameras are going to look like, the gigantic, you know, camera mount and how much they're going to stick out and everything about that, right?
John:
One of the things that all the 3D models that people have done is they share a common trait that the volume buttons on the side of the phone, instead of there being two little holes, one for the volume up and one for the volume down, there's one long skinny hole that
John:
That would have been presumably for the solid state button that would act kind of like a seesaw rocker, where if you press the top of the button, that would mean volume up and you press the bottom and be volume down.
John:
And when I saw that, I mean, you can see it very clearly on the case.
John:
There's there's just one long opening instead of two little ones.
John:
Right.
John:
I hate things like that.
John:
I don't want to go into a car rant, but car manufacturers seem to love this idea.
John:
And I want someone to shake them and say, please don't do this.
John:
the thing that car manufacturers do is uh they want to have a bunch of buttons but they don't want to have real button buttons so first they did capacitive touch where there'd be this big expanse of shiny black plastic and there'd be these light up symbols right and if you just touch your finger to one of the light up symbols it's not a screen mind you it's just a light up symbol like that you know individual stenciled out little light up symbols you touch your finger to that light up symbol it's capacitive and it will sense that you touch it and it will activate it
John:
And then you put those controls in the steering wheel, which is a terrible idea because when your bare hand swipes across one of them, you turn on cruise control or something.
John:
So you're like, all right, that was a bad idea.
John:
It takes them five years to learn this.
John:
Oh, no, it's still happening.
John:
Look at the new golf.
John:
They still do it.
John:
But some manufacturers figured out that's a bad idea.
John:
Let's do something better.
John:
I know what we'll do.
John:
Let's have a big, expansive, shiny plastic with light up little areas that you also touch.
John:
But instead of them being capacitive,
John:
Why don't we make them pressure sensitive?
John:
And like, but wait a second, it's a giant sheet of plastic.
John:
How are you going to make a pressure sensitive?
John:
How will I know how it works?
John:
I've got an idea.
John:
We'll make it capacitive to figure out where your finger is.
John:
And then we'll make it pressure sensitive to figure out that you're pressing.
John:
And then some other genius says, I've got an even better idea.
John:
Let's make it not pressure sensitive, but let's make it a regular button.
John:
So now they have a huge piece of plastic that when you press anywhere on it, the entire piece of plastic goes in by like two millimeters and
John:
They have capacitive sensors to figure out, hey, we know the whole big giant thing went in, but what part of it was your finger touching when it went in?
John:
So basically, it's one big button, but with, like, it knows where you press the one big button.
John:
And it's like, guys, you can just use individual buttons, I swear.
John:
Just make six buttons instead of one giant button with a capacitive sensor so that it knows where it is.
Marco:
I'm pretty sure, by the way, I'm pretty sure my Defender's steering wheel buttons are this.
John:
Yeah, no, they love it.
Marco:
And it works fine about 95% of the time, but that other 5% is really frustrating.
John:
And I guess they're saving costs because instead of having six buttons, you have essentially one button and the capacitive stuff is cheap enough.
John:
But it's like, it's such a terrible idea, especially in like, you know, something that's supposed to be fancy.
John:
So when I, anyway, getting back to the phone, when I look at this long, skinny, single volume button, right?
John:
Right.
John:
where you just rock it from side to side.
John:
I hate that because it's like, okay, I pressed it, but I pressed too close to the middle.
John:
So what I actually did was I actuated volume up and down at the same time, or I actually did volume up and then volume down.
John:
Like when they're separate buttons and you find the one you want to press, if you just press that button, the other button doesn't get pressed at all.
John:
But when it's a single piece and it's supposed to rock like a seesaw, you have to make sure you press enough on the edge to rock it in the right direction or whatever.
John:
It just seems like such a bad idea.
John:
So,
John:
Given this rumor that, you know, they were going to be the kind that don't move, but now they're not going to be.
John:
They're going back to regular buttons.
John:
I do wonder, does that mean that they're redesigning the case as well to have two openings, one for volume up, one for down?
John:
Or are they sticking with the single long volume button only now is just going to be a regular button that rocks back and forth?
John:
Didn't the iPhone 3G and 3GS have a single big rocker button?
John:
I think so, yeah.
John:
I think they did it where they had a divot in the middle, and the new rumors are that there'll be a little line in the middle as well.
John:
You make a divot.
John:
It's still one piece, but there's a raised part and another raised part, which helps you a little bit to make sure you know you're pressing on the half that you're pressing on.
John:
But it just seems to me like such a weird choice.
John:
What's broken about the two separate buttons that they need to fix by having one?
John:
It seems like the same amount of surface area for water ingress as having two buttons, but I don't know.
John:
So anyway, we'll see when this phone actually comes out.
John:
Does it have pressure-sensitive buttons or not?
John:
Or does it have a single long volume rocker or two separate volume buttons?
John:
And of all the things to change, again, I'm still kind of curious about this.
John:
Apple perhaps knows something that we don't.
John:
My only guess is water and dust ingress and reliability of moving buttons.
John:
but given their track record with the home button it seems like they could probably do a good job of the solid state buttons uh but just maybe not for this year and the other rumor is that the the mute switch is going to be a button which still that's that's still on that rumor is still on and i think that'll be great because i'm already thinking about what i'm going to use that for because the mute switch i just always have it on silent so i don't need that switch to be there i would love that to just be a small button and i'm pretty sure my day one attempt to map that button not that i'm going to have this on my wife will but anyway uh what i would map it to is
John:
a rotation lock you know the good old days when the ipads had a rotation lock i would probably map the button to rotation lock because i do rotation lock and unlock my thing usually i'm laying down i want it locked when i'm sitting up you know whatever uh but i'm i'm willing to uh imagine that i might find a better use for it i'm sure lots of people will hook it up to some kind of shortcut and
John:
or do the same function that you currently have mapped to like triple tap on the back of your phone so adding another button to the phone basically by making the mute switch into the the ring silence switch or whatever the hell it's called by making that into a button solid state or otherwise i think that's going to be a big upgrade and that one is a separate button and not just a weird rocker thing
Marco:
yeah that i think the most just the most obvious thing to do with that is have it launch the camera app of your choice like that would be amazing you know i think a lot of people would do that oh that's interesting launch a camera i mean and there's all you know launch the flashlight maybe you know whatever you use it could launch the default camera app i know there's 50 ways to do that you can swipe sideways you can press the little
John:
icon but but you can't do really any well i guess you can do the swipe sideways without looking but still you kind of got to make sure the screen is active or whatever i i think maybe if i find that rotation lock is not worthwhile maybe i would use camera because i just spent the day today i was uh touring in college with my daughter um and i was taking lots of pictures on my phone because i'm an embarrassing dad and she wouldn't let me bring a real camera um
John:
And so you got to take out your phone and you got to activate the camera a lot because I'm trying to do it stealthily, activate the camera, take a picture, put it back, right?
John:
Because I don't want to embarrass anybody.
John:
And I have traditionally been a hold down in the little camera icon on the lock screen person, but I tried to start being a sideways swipe person because it seemed like it might be easier, but I don't know if it's easier.
John:
It seemed like it really wanted me to swipe a long distance.
John:
Sometimes there's notifications there and I'm afraid I'm going to accidentally swipe it on the way.
John:
So either one of those actions, though, I think the...
Marco:
the upcoming action button or whatever the hell they call it on the iphone 15 series will be better so i guess i'd try that as well yeah i can also you know i think by far the the most common use for it will be camera um and and i think again a lot of people will probably use it as a flashlight um if you currently use the triple tap accessibility shortcut for things like magnifier or things like that like i think that'll also be a very common use for people who use those features uh there's a there's a lot of features i can
Marco:
Love that.
Marco:
And if they do open it up to things that can be done with the phone, that would require the phone to be unlocked, such as launching a third-party app or running a shortcut, that would add some complexity because you'd have to let Face ID run first before it would finish the task.
Marco:
uh but that would also i think dramatically open it up and that would do especially that would be great for third-party camera apps like because then they they could have themselves be the ones that launch when you hit that button instead of the built-in one and that you know if you use a third-party camera app that would be you know probably your holy grail um and even if you don't and and if apple just you know lets it be their own stuff that can run with the phone locked even if it's just launching camera or flashlight or magnifier or you know changing the mute status
Marco:
Those are all very, very nice features for almost everyone who uses them.
Marco:
So I think that's the plan for the mute switch to become an action button basically sounds awesome.
Marco:
And we'll see what Apple does with it, like what they actually allow us to do, how it actually works.
Marco:
But that sounds awesome because I think most people are not flipping that switch frequently.
Marco:
Most people, I think, typically have it in one state or the other.
Marco:
Uh, so it, I think it's totally fine to make that a bit more of like a software based thing.
Marco:
Um, also hitting that switch the way almost everyone uses their iPhone, which is in a case is terrible.
Marco:
Like trying to flip that switch one handed when it's in a case with most cases is difficult to impossible.
John:
It's an any belly button.
John:
It just collects lint.
Marco:
yeah and collect tons of lint and and yeah and it's and it's hard to operate so like you know i recognize if you are if you are a caseless unicorn and you you know you want to like be able to hold and feel it in your pocket or flip it in your pocket that's great but you also probably recognize that you are the minority of phone users by not using the case and so when you are using a case it's depending on how the case is shaped around that it's very difficult to operate that switch or to detect what state it's in without just taking out of your pocket and looking at it
Marco:
So making it a button that that would be just you just push it in and then the phone does something in response.
Marco:
Maybe it gives a little vibrate, you know, to indicate whether if you if you leave it on mute mode, maybe it gives a little vibrate to indicate muted status.
Marco:
So you could still do it in the pocket 100 percent by feel.
Marco:
that's the kind of thing, that's how I would expect them to do it, and that I think would be totally fine.
Marco:
And similar to, you know, when the iPhone 7 came out and it didn't have a real physical pushing in home button, we all thought that was going to be bad.
Marco:
We all thought it was going to be somehow worse than having the physical home button.
Marco:
And by the way, remember, the physical home buttons in the iPhones that preceded the iPhone 7 often died during the time you used the phone.
Marco:
Like, they often wore out and led to this whole...
Marco:
world of people who use like the um what's the on-screen little blobby thing but you know a little blobby thing where you have to put a home button thing on your screen yeah it's an accessibility feature i don't remember the name of it but it basically was it's an on-screen incarnation of the home button for people whose home buttons broke right and and then and what turned out happening was like huge places like i believe this was big in china huge places huge amounts of people would assistive touch thank you to veg in the chat room
Marco:
Huge populations of people would turn that on right from the start.
Marco:
They would just always use the phone that way because they didn't want to wear out the home button.
John:
It was like people who put plastic over their furniture so it would be protected, right?
John:
But they would never take the plastic off of the furniture.
John:
So I wanted my furniture to look good forever, but now it's going to look like it has plastic on it forever.
John:
So you'd preserve your home button, which you would never use, I guess for resale value or whatever.
Marco:
right that's that's how my grandparents former living room always was there was always there was a whole room of the house filled with furniture and we could never go into it except on christmas day and on christmas day we would go into the room but the plastic would still be on the couches we would just sit on it well you don't want to mess it up you want it to always look good just
Marco:
Ignoring the fact that it always looks bad because it has plastic on it.
John:
Right.
Marco:
And it's totally unusable as furniture.
Marco:
Anyway, so when the iPhone 7 came out with that home button virtually done with the Taptic Engine, again, we all thought it was going to be worse, but it turned out it was... I wouldn't say way better, but it was fine.
Marco:
It was...
Marco:
It was exactly as good as the old home button in terms of how it felt and everything, but then it worked pretty much 100% of the time.
Marco:
It was way more reliable.
John:
I liked it better because it required less travel, so it felt less onerous.
John:
People don't remember, the old home buttons moved a lot.
John:
They didn't just move like a half a millimeter in and out.
John:
They moved up and down a lot.
John:
The thing about the old home buttons is that we were all aware of home button failures, so it made perfect sense to us why Apple would want to
John:
make that solid state setting aside waterproofing which which also kind of came around then i think the seven was the first one where they really advertised the waterproofing stuff um but that made sense but the the volume power buttons like i'm willing to believe that there's reliability and waterproofing benefits but i don't i don't see them myself in like my my my overview of the iphone market and my usage of the iphone like
John:
It doesn't seem like there's a crisis of volume up and down and sleep wake buttons dying on iPhones and Apple needs to address this.
John:
So, I mean, maybe it's not that pressing and maybe they bailed on it because they couldn't figure it out, but they'll, you know, return to it in the future.
John:
The action button, on the other hand, I think is a great example of Apple discovering that buttons are useful.
John:
I mean, people look at it and say, oh, it's just like on the Apple Watch Ultra.
John:
But I feel like it's the same ethos that put the HDMI and SD card back on the Pro Max, like that, hey, having a clean appearance is one thing, but features pay dividends every single day.
John:
So you want to strike a balance between, you know, not having a million buttons and things sticking out of it, but also having enough functionality.
John:
Can the iPhone support one more button?
John:
I believe it can.
John:
I mean, they're not adding a button.
John:
They're just changing something that used to be a switch, turning that into a button.
John:
But still, it's a big win, especially if they let us, you know,
John:
assign things to it for like what's single tap double tap triple tap tap and hold like i don't think they're going to go hog wild with it but if you think oh well then once i pick one thing for that button it's game over apple does have the ability to be fancier and we just mentioned the triple tap on the back of your phone that's a triple tap action which is fairly rare for apple to go single tap double tap triple tap so if they're willing to do that i really hope they'll be willing to let people assign things to single tap on that action button double tap on the action button and you know hold down the action button
John:
There's lots of potential flexibility there, depending on how far Apple wants to go.
Marco:
I mean, I can tell you why it's triple tap on the back of the phone.
Marco:
At least I'm pretty sure I know why.
Marco:
A long time ago, as I was brainstorming features for Overcast for how could I use this while walking?
Marco:
This is before the Apple Watch came out.
Marco:
How could I control Overcast?
Marco:
So I actually prototyped tapping the back of the phone while it's in your pocket and
Marco:
As some kind of gesture to detect and maybe make it track skip or whatever.
Marco:
It was extremely difficult to get that to work reliably and not have false positives.
Marco:
Because as you're walking, the phone is being shocked with every step you take.
Marco:
And so to try to detect the difference between regular motion while walking or running or jogging or whatever...
Marco:
and a tap or a double tap your error rate is is significant whereas triple tap if you do that within a fast enough time that gives much more data a much more identifiable pattern of vibration with the accelerometers and everything to the point where they can probably detect that pretty reliably with with almost no wrong false positives um so that's probably why that's a triple tap they should have done it like uh they should have required mario 64 timings for the triple tap for the triple jump yeah
John:
Yeah, right.
John:
Tap, tap, tap.
John:
Oh, sorry.
John:
You didn't do the timing right.
John:
You did a double jump and then just did a single jump after.
John:
Try again.
Casey:
I believe you're thinking of Mario, John.
John:
I'm not, actually.
John:
Yes, you are.
Casey:
Anyway.
Casey:
Yeah, I don't know.
Casey:
I like the idea of a...
Casey:
of some sort of action button or, you know, smart button.
Casey:
Uh, I do use my, um, my silent switch as a fidget toy, which I know I should not do, but as of yet, I have not broken one.
Casey:
Um, I, I never flick it otherwise.
Casey:
So like my phone, uh,
Casey:
certainly since i got my first watch in like 2014 and i think even mostly before that my phone was always on silent just always and again once i had an apple watch on my wrist pretty much always there seemed to be no purpose to ever have it not on silent and i'm not one of those absolute monsters that has a chime on their watch you know that's why i wear a watch i can be silently notified if something needs my needs my attention and
Casey:
And so anyways, I don't really have a need for a switch.
Casey:
I don't do the rotation lock often.
Casey:
I tend to leave my phone on rotation locked to portrait pretty much always.
Casey:
And I will occasionally turn that off if I need to show a photo in landscape or something like that.
Casey:
But I like the idea of having that as the action button activator.
Casey:
I love the idea of having the camera as what gets activated in this mythical action button.
Casey:
And certainly for the iPad, I would love to bring back the switch.
Casey:
It used to be that the thing that's a silent switch on your phone, there was something similar on the iPad, and that would be your orientation lock.
Casey:
And it was amazing, and I miss it all the time, and I would love to have that back.
Casey:
But anyways, I love this idea.
Casey:
I hope that maybe these reports are wrong, although I doubt they are.
Casey:
And maybe it will land in the iPhone 15.
Casey:
But we'll see what happens.
John:
Oh, everyone agrees the action button is coming.
John:
It's just a question of whether the buttons will be solid state or not.
Marco:
And I think it's tricky with the solid state because when you look at how they did... If you look at a teardown of any of the Touch ID phones from iPhone 7 forward, you can see how they achieved that pressure button was that the Taptic Engine, which is kind of like a big subwoofer in your phone.
Marco:
It's basically a...
Marco:
relatively large, low-frequency driver that goes back and forth, like a speaker driver, sort of.
Marco:
But it's such low frequency that you just feel the vibration instead of hearing audible sound.
Marco:
What's interesting is that the way they did this is that the Taptic Engine, I think, just happened to be, in the design of the phone, at the bottom.
Marco:
And so they realize, oh, well, we can just use that since the home button is already right there.
Marco:
Let's just move the taptic engine a little bit over and boom, boom, there's our click.
Marco:
Because you have to feel it when you're close to it to really maximize the way it feels right.
Marco:
The problem is, taptic engines are big, and in order to do this for the iPhone volume buttons, you would have to move it up there and then maybe even have a second or third one.
Marco:
And so...
Marco:
that takes up a lot of internal volume.
Marco:
And in the iPhone, they can't really spare internal volume very often.
Marco:
If there's space in the iPhone, they want to use it for battery if they can.
Marco:
So it seems like a bit of an odd choice unless they found a way to either use one taptic engine to do all of this or to have much smaller ones that still have enough of a feel.
Marco:
Plus, the home button wearing out thing, as we were talking about a minute ago,
Marco:
You think about how many times is a home button pressed, you know, even in light use of a phone, maybe it's pressed 50 times a day.
Marco:
And, you know, if you're a heavy phone user, more than that.
Marco:
Whereas how many times do you press the volume buttons on your phone?
Marco:
You know, even if you are just the volume all the time, you're probably not pressing them 50 times a day.
Marco:
So sleep, sleep, wake might be pressed a lot because people press it before they put it back in their pocket, you know?
Marco:
yeah maybe i mean it depends on like you know some people even don't even realize it's there but but even then yeah i mean so maybe 20 to 50 times a day for that like not as much as a home button because the home button you you know you press it every time you switch to apps so it was and everything we unlock the phone so it was it was very it's pressed a lot
Marco:
so i don't know that it's necessarily um needed for like you know resilience purposes on those buttons i think what it would be for would be for water resistance because keep in mind too like apple apple has dual reasons for wanting to make the phones durable one is that they want people to be happy with their phones and if their phones are too fragile see also the reason why they make the backs out of glass god knows why if the phones are too fragile people don't like them but number two
Marco:
If Apple has to repair a lot of the phones that are under warranty or AppleCare, they eat the cost and they lose money.
Marco:
Anything they can do to reduce service needs, to reduce warranty failures, they have a pretty strong incentive to do that.
Marco:
So...
Marco:
ideally you know they they want to that's why they remove the headphone jack that's why you know they try to make everything as solid as possible that's why there's always these rumors about oh they're going to remove all the ports and everything like that because apple has strong incentives to make their phones not fail at least while they're under warranty or apple care coverage so you know again glass aside that still makes you mad but but like me like if apple does eventually not use glass on the back of their phone
Marco:
It's probably going to be for that reason mainly.
Marco:
And then secondarily, maybe about weight.
Marco:
I would love these phones to get lighter.
John:
You'll be happy to know the rumor is titanium instead of stainless steel on the Pro, so that'll be lighter.
Marco:
I know, that'll be great.
Marco:
I hope that's real.
Marco:
But anyway.
Marco:
You know, as for like if they actually do this Taptic Engine volume rocker and sleep button thing, I bet it will feel totally fine.
Marco:
I bet we won't really notice a big difference.
Marco:
They did show with the iPhone 7 and forward home button.
Marco:
They can do that.
Marco:
They can achieve that.
Marco:
And the illusion works.
Marco:
Again, the trackpads and the laptops, we've had that illusion for since about 2015 on every model.
Marco:
Like that's that illusion works fine.
Marco:
So the illusion works.
Marco:
They can do it.
Marco:
I trust them to do it.
Marco:
I just question whether they will do it because of the interior space constraints that they probably have while doing it.
John:
Yeah, the reason we know that they were going to use two additional Taptic engines was because the rumor was from a supply chain about who was awarded the contract.
John:
There was like, this is a big win, and the stock price of the company that makes the Taptic engines is going to go up because now instead of selling them one Taptic engine per phone, they're going to be selling them three, right?
John:
Yeah.
John:
uh and the rumor was that the taptic engines for the volume button and the uh sleep wake button were very small like they weren't the size of the big one because they didn't need to shake the whole phone like when it rings or whatever they just needed to provide feedback for the buttons and they would be right next to the buttons still taking up space but right next to the buttons and that was part of what was boggling my mind is like like you said they're gonna they're gonna take space out of that i can't imagine it taking less space than physical buttons so they're gonna take space and power
John:
for these little taptic engines two additional tactic engines just to pull off this feature that nobody really wants that presumably make the phones a little bit more durable um i do wonder if the technical issue they couldn't resolve has nothing to do with the low power thing and what do you do when the battery dies and is instead uh related to like the experience i think a lot of people had with the original apple watch that the the tiny taptic engine and the series zero very often sort of gave up the ghost and just could not shake your watch anymore i think it still happens occasionally with later generations that
John:
The very small taptic engines sometimes just can't even, and they stop doing their little wiggle.
John:
And you don't hear about that so much with the big taptic engine that's underneath the trackpads or inside your phones at the bottom, right?
John:
So maybe something about making a very tiny taptic engine and making that reliable is what the technical issue was, because we've definitely seen that specific technical issue with the very small taptic engine that's in the Apple Watch, but...
John:
We won't know until they announce the product, but this was definitely something that seemed like it was very heavily rumored to the point where they were, you know, talking about which supplier was awarded the contract and excited about there will be more Taptic engines.
John:
And then this latest rumor from the same from the same source from Ming-Chi Kuo saying, yeah, it doesn't look like that's happening for this year, which.
John:
which is a thing that happens.
John:
You know, you try a feature out, you put it in prototypes.
John:
If you can't get it up to the reliability levels that you want, your fallback is just do regular buttons, right?
John:
It's a fallback that you can have readily available because it's not like they don't know how to make regular buttons.
John:
So we'll see how this ends up.
John:
But if it doesn't come this year, if there really are benefits, like you were saying, Marco, like the reliability or, you know, water intrusion or whatever, they'll try again, right?
John:
They'll try with the 16.
John:
They'll try with the 17.
John:
Like eventually they'll get there.
Marco:
We'll be right back.
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Casey:
Let's do some Ask ATP.
Casey:
And Xerxes wants to know, do any of you run third-party anti-malware on your Mac?
John:
Is that time of year again?
Casey:
Yeah, everyone asks at least once or twice a year.
John:
Yeah, and the reason I keep putting it back in there is because I always want to see, has our answer changed?
John:
We probably answer this maybe once a year, once every year and a half or whatever.
John:
like it's not safe to assume that things will stay the same forever in technology world so here we are 2023 uh are any of us running anti-malware on our macs in the past we had said we were not so let's see now casey says no
John:
Nope.
Marco:
I also like to me, you know, first of all, I think anything that is a significant threat of malware to the Mac, Apple will most likely use their X protect system and block it.
Marco:
And that, you know, so that will be fine.
Marco:
um it so far life on a mac has has repeatedly shown that malware is not a massive concern for most of us who run things at all responsibly uh and so we are i think pretty it's a pretty low risk for us um secondly the reality of anti-malware software like third-party anti-malware software the reality of what that does to your computer is
Marco:
is itself in my in my opinion kind of like what malware does and so like i don't i don't want those negative effects and i don't want my computer to be slowed down and messed up and giving some weird company like you know what these companies like norton and whatever like
Marco:
They're weird companies, too.
Marco:
Why am I giving them access to everything on my computer?
Marco:
Do I really trust them?
Marco:
Should I really trust them?
Marco:
Do I trust them not to have their own security holes?
Marco:
Like, if I'm opening the door to them to give them... Because, you know, these things need, like, you know, root access or whatever.
Marco:
How do I know they aren't going to introduce their own security hole that somebody can exploit?
Marco:
Like...
Marco:
it's just it it's adding it's adding risks to my computer it's taking away risks i don't think are very big uh and you know in the sense of not just the total malware risk to a mac but the delta between what could apple protect against directly versus what these can protect against i think that's a very very small gain in practice
Marco:
And then the downside of having them is they make my computer worse.
Marco:
They make it perform worse.
Marco:
They introduce privacy questions.
Marco:
I have to pay for them in some way.
Marco:
It's like, well, that's kind of like what malware does.
Marco:
So I'd just rather not do that.
Marco:
And as long as the risk of Mac malware continues to be as low as it is, and as long as Apple can do a good enough job with their built-in stuff to protect against anything that actually gets big, I'm fine with that.
John:
Yep.
Casey:
Agreed.
John:
I'm not as pessimistic as Marco is about anti-malware software.
John:
I think the big difference is the reputable anti-malware software vendors, their intentions are good.
John:
They're trying to protect your computer.
Marco:
It always amazes me that they're trying to sell you a protection scam.
Marco:
Let's be right.
John:
But but they're not you know, they're not trying to like encrypt all your stuff and then send you a ransom.
John:
So historically, and I think still currently, Apple has had in macOS 10 slash current version of macOS, various places for anti-malware software to hook into the system.
John:
For example, I think there has been and probably might still be the hook that says, hey, every time anything tries to access a file anywhere, here's a part where you, third-party developer, can insert your anti-malware thing to make sure that the file access is not malicious or whatever.
John:
you know like that there are really deep low-level hooks at like the kernel level for anti-malware software to intercept things like network requests or file access or whatever to perform the function of anti-malware and over the years apple i think has made those hooks safer so that if there is a bug in the anti-malware it doesn't itself become a security exploit like the network stack stuff is now using moved into user space i believe and anyway um
John:
all that said i don't run anti-malware software i i never have and i continue not to uh not because i think anti-malware software is like bad for my computer or whatever but for example the thing that sprang to mind immediately is this bug i talked about at the top of the episode where my window dragon got all messed up if i had any of those things installed that would be my first thing that i would look for right
John:
What is in my operating system that's third party at the lowest level messing with literally everything that happens, every file access, every network or whatever, that's going to be my first culprit to say, all right, uninstall that and see if the problem went away.
John:
Not because, again, they're doing anything bad or wrong, but just to perform the function of anti-malware, you have to be so deep in the system and you have to watch every single thing of a particular type that happens.
John:
You can't just watch some network request or some file I.O.
John:
You would miss the malware, right?
John:
You have to be there and catch it all, right?
John:
and apple itself already has an anti-malware system built into mac os at the lowest level that it's it's limited and there's not a lot of surface area to it but apple uses it and periodically updates it with new malware or whatever so it's not like i'm running entirely unprotected but the main reason i don't run any malware stuff is that you know it's
John:
There is a cost to running it.
John:
I was forced to run anti-malware stuff when I had my various jobby jobs, so I know what it's like.
John:
There is a cost to running that stuff.
John:
Some of it can be worse than others, right?
John:
And the benefit is just not there, in my opinion.
John:
It's not as if I'm like, well, it's okay for you not to run it because you're a savvy user and you won't do anything dumb.
John:
No.
John:
Like, I'm not much more savvy than the average user.
John:
Like...
John:
Malware exploits human weakness and exploits your complete unawareness.
John:
I load web pages.
John:
I don't have some magical knowledge that knows, hey, I'm sure this web page doesn't exploit some zero day thing in my web.
John:
But no, I don't know that any more than anybody else does.
John:
So I've been using Macs without antivirus, without anti-malware since 1984.
John:
And I've never had a problem with it.
John:
So until that changes, there's no way I'm going to voluntarily run some software that I know has downsides in exchange for an upside that I just do not see.
John:
So the answer to, you know, has this changed?
John:
Are we still running it?
John:
We're still not running it.
John:
Now, I know companies have to run it probably for liability reasons.
John:
And if your company forces you to run it, I'm sorry, I've been there.
John:
It happens, right?
John:
But for regular people, I still think the correct answer is,
John:
don't install third-party and emailware software unless you find that you need it.
John:
And I don't think you will find that you need it.
Casey:
Jesse Wilson writes, in your discussion of Lifestreams, John noted that Rewind.ai doesn't encrypt local application data.
Casey:
I don't know if that's still true, by the way, but at the time this was written... Yeah, at the time this was written, that was true.
Casey:
Does macOS allow apps to keep encryption keys and data private from one another?
Casey:
Do you use any Mac apps that encrypt their local data?
Casey:
John?
John:
Yes, macOS does allow apps to keep data private.
John:
That's what Keychain is for.
John:
Applications can store stuff in Keychain that other applications can't see.
John:
Obviously, on the Mac, there's always the top level root privilege where you can see everything and you as a user can unlock your Keychain and look at all the contents.
John:
But there are mechanisms that application developers can do.
John:
to try to keep their stuff separate from other people's stuff sandboxing helps with that not every mac app is sandbox but the ones in the mac app store are and a sandbox mac app really has very limited access to reach into what other apps are doing non-sandbox apps can reach pretty far and wide so you have to you know trust the developer that's making them but
John:
the operating system does provide mechanisms to try to keep data private and keychain is the the ultimate one of those but you can't just say oh because this mechanism exists i'm sure every mac app is safe no because developers have to use these apis they have to opt into sandboxing and so do other apps and in the end because it's a mac you do have the ability to say well i'm just going to become root and bypass all of these uh you know protections and just get it what i want
John:
There is a higher level of that, like system integrity protection and, you know, having a read-only system volume, right?
John:
So it is more secure than it was, so just keep that in mind.
John:
But yes, applications like Rewind can do better than leaving all their data unencrypted on disk, and I'm assuming that since this SKDP question was sent to us probably many months ago, that actually has changed with this specific application.
John:
It's tricky on the Mac because, like, you could say, well, I'm using an encrypted disk.
John:
I'm like...
John:
My laptop comes and I'm using encryption on the entire disk.
John:
Isn't everything encrypted and safe?
John:
Yeah, but you have to unlock it to use the computer.
John:
And when you're logged into it and your screen is unlocked and everything's unlocked and your keychain is unlocked, yeah, it's all encrypted, what we call encrypted at rest, as in on the disk, it's encrypted.
John:
But right now, live on the computer, it's ready and able to be read by anyone who sits in front of your keyboard and your mouse because your computer's unlocked, your keychain's unlocked.
John:
So security's complicated.
John:
But yeah, the standard is...
John:
uh actually make it encrypted on the disk because that way if you shut down your computer and someone yanks out the ssd chip and tries to like read stuff from or whoever there are many levels of protection that's preventing them from getting at it but the final one would be oh and by the way if you actually do manage to read it it's all going to be encrypted anyway
Casey:
Indeed.
Casey:
And finally, True writes, if you hadn't already gotten the Mac Studio for your wife, John, would you now opt for the M2 Mac Mini instead?
John:
I wouldn't because my goal with buying her computer is to, you know, like buying my computer or my Honda Accord or whatever, just get one and then make sure it is good for many, many years.
John:
So the M2 Mini, I think, doesn't come with the Max chip, the M2 Max.
John:
I believe that's right.
John:
It goes up to the Pro only.
John:
Right.
John:
You can't outfit it with 64 gigs of RAM.
John:
That is a big future-proofing thing because, you know, things just get more RAM-humbry over time.
John:
And there's no SD card, which seems silly, but her previous 5K iMac had an SD card slot, and so does her Mac Studio, and I actually use it by sticking SD cards from my cameras into it.
John:
Even though it's under the desk, I can still get at the SD card slot.
John:
So I personally wouldn't, but for a lot of people who don't care about any of those things and aren't trying to buy some sort of future-proof computer, you can save a lot of money by buying an M2 Mac Mini with some decent specs rather than the Studio.
Marco:
Thanks to our sponsors this week, Squarespace and Backblaze.
Marco:
And thanks to our members.
Marco:
You can support us directly at atp.fm slash join.
Marco:
Don't forget our cool new merch sale at atp.fm slash store.
Marco:
And we will talk to you next week.
Marco:
Now the show is over.
Marco:
They didn't even mean to begin.
Marco:
Cause it was accidental.
Marco:
Oh, it was accidental.
Marco:
John didn't do any research.
Marco:
Marco and Casey wouldn't let him.
Marco:
Cause it was accidental.
Marco:
Oh, it was accidental.
John:
And you can find the show notes at ATP.FM.
John:
And if you're into Twitter...
Marco:
You can follow them at C-A-S-E-Y-L-I-S-S So that's Casey Liss M-A-R-C-O-A-R-M-N-T Marco Arment S-I-R-A-C-U-S-A Syracuse It's accidental They didn't mean to Accidental Tech Podcast So long
Marco:
i have a bit of an odd problem oh no i don't quite know how to fix it let me guess let me guess the fix is throwing lots of money at it in this case i don't think so because dog treats are pretty cheap not the ones that i get advertised on instagram yeah i was gonna say i'm sure you can find like the super fussy one does your dog eat grass does your dog ever lick its own paw does your dog ever look at you
John:
Your dog is probably dying from parasites.
John:
Buy these $40 treats that last a week.
John:
Oh, my God.
John:
That's all I get on Instagram is sick dog ads.
Marco:
So you mentioned earlier, Casey, that you have all your phones on mute because why would you ever need to hear sound effects?
Marco:
I have started doing this myself.
Marco:
I actually have had my phone on loud mode much over the last few years just because I live in the middle of nowhere in the winter and there's no one around.
Marco:
And so who cares?
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
And so I'll just leave it on because sometimes maybe it's out of my pocket or something.
Marco:
Somehow, something has changed in the last couple of weeks where my wonderful dog, Hops, who is a tiny little 12-year-old diabetic shit poop, has started really freaking out with phone notification noises.
Marco:
And this is new.
Marco:
He's not usually a nervous dog.
Marco:
This is a new thing.
Marco:
I can't figure out what was the inciting incident here.
Marco:
I thought maybe a phone notification noise preceded some traumatic event or nervous event for him.
Marco:
But I can't figure out what that would be.
Marco:
My only theory is maybe every time the phone dings...
Marco:
i subconsciously like look alert towards it and maybe that that makes him nervous that he thinks oh no something something that requires alertness is happening maybe it's something bad you know that's the only thing i think of but even like i don't think i'm that bad about it honestly but anyway so it's gotten to the point where the thing thing is we have a lot of devices in our house we have all my stuff we have all tiff stuff all of adam's stuff
Marco:
And so trying to make sure that no devices unnecessarily play Apple's default dings and doodoloots, that's actually very difficult in the sounds.
Marco:
There's a lot of things that can cause that.
John:
You can be a mute switch family.
John:
I mean, I realize that I don't actually know all the sounds that a phone might make because my phone is set to silent all the time and so is every other device in the house.
John:
And the few times I've turned it off, I'm like...
John:
Oh my God.
John:
It makes a sound every time a message comes in and every time you send one and I immediately turn it off.
John:
So I know how hops feels because anytime I hear that sound, I also want to break something.
John:
yeah and like and to be clear it's not making him like aggressive it's making him nervous making me nervous too i'm upset about the idea of your bloop bloop ding bloop no it's like a giant video arcade please just just go around the house and put all the switches into mute and you know it doesn't have to be in your pocket because when it vibrates and it's on a hard surface you can still hear it
Marco:
Yeah, but also, but like, okay, so think, so also my Mac makes these sounds and sometimes I have it playing through speakers or at least open backed headphones.
Marco:
So he can definitely still hear it.
Marco:
What is your alert sound set to?
Marco:
I just, I just, what are the defaults are?
Marco:
So, so I, what I hear a lot of.
Marco:
I don't know the default.
Marco:
Look it up.
Marco:
What is it?
Marco:
Is it funk?
Marco:
Is it glass?
Marco:
So Glass is the one that's... Is that that one?
Marco:
That one is definitely one that gets it.
Marco:
So as far as I can tell, it's at least that.
Marco:
He hates that, and I think he also hates the... That's like the standard iOS notification sound.
Marco:
So there's two problems.
Marco:
Number one, we have a ton of devices in the house, and three of them are Macs, and so that's going to be difficult to never play these sounds.
Marco:
The second problem is...
Marco:
is we've watched TV shows from Apple TV+.
John:
Yeah, product placement.
Marco:
Yeah, so we've been watching Ted Lasso and Shrinking recently, both of which take place like in the modern day.
John:
I do like the fact that at least on Ted Lasso, I don't watch Shrinking, but at least on Ted Lasso, they use the dynamic type features of the OS to make the text readable on screen rather than faking...
John:
stuff like it shows no way it's all faked it's all faked no they fake it with real i think with actual video footage it is it is composited in the sense that like it's fake that way exactly but it's actually using ios it looks like yeah it's the real apps and the real os and the real dynamic type type feature which i think looks so much better than when they you know try to take an interface and blow up the text for the purposes of reading on the screen but it's not actually a supported thing of the future and yes the screens are composited on so they read on camera
Marco:
but i'm just saying the the actual software is real apple software only with you know you just assume everyone on ted lasso has bad vision because the the fonts are all cranked up but yeah i so you know in all in ted lasso and in shrinking there and i think i think the morning show also had this that that hasn't come back yet but um when we watch that i think they have a lot of like you know showing iphones having text chats and so you end up hearing a lot of ting
John:
and you hear and the whoo whatever the you know the i message i feel like that is the bad character moment because granted some characters would be terrible people who have the sounds on but some characters would have the sound and they just i feel like apple's branding overrides everything look everybody has to be has to have the mute switch you know set to uh to the noisy mode right and that's not true some character i feel like it should be a character moment we see what kind of character is a terrible person who lets their sounds go on their phone
Marco:
agreed but setting that aside it doesn't solve my problem so like it's getting like it's very hard to watch these shows now without you know something will happen on the show and then like house is he's basically he likes you know he he leaves his normal his normal tv state for years has been you know tipped over power save mode you know as we're as we're watching tv at night and he's now like you know climbing on me nervous like that and this is so unlikely so i'm trying like how like
Marco:
What do I do?
Marco:
At first, I'm like, maybe I should start playing the sounds and giving them a treat.
John:
Yeah, every time the sound plays, give them a treat.
Marco:
Yeah, resensitize it to be a positive thing.
Marco:
But then I'm worried.
Marco:
I'm like, am I going to break my dog?
Marco:
Is he going to then...
John:
want to treat every time my computer actually makes the ding sound like i i don't know or am i gonna like confuse his association and then make him hate treats i don't i don't know i don't know what to do yeah i mean the thing you should you should actually do from a dog training perspective that i don't actually know how to do but i think this is what dog trainers would tell you is what you want to reward is not hey when you hear the sound you get the treat what you want to reward is the behavior you want and the behavior you want is sound goes off and dog remains calm and so you have to find
John:
the smallest reproduction of that phenomenon where he can actually remain calm?
John:
Because right now he can't remain calm.
John:
The sound goes off and he isn't calm.
John:
So you have to find something like some noise that is like that noise, but not that, like, basically you have to say, a noise happened and you remained calm.
John:
And that's what you reward, the calmness after the noise.
John:
Then you'd work your way up to the actual noise that he is now coming out.
John:
i don't know how to do that because like what do you use as the you want the dog to be successful essentially so you need a scenario where i can make a noise that is close to the ding noise but it is not the ding noise such that i know hops will successfully be chill about it and when he's chill you reward him for the chillness and what that trains him to do is then eventually you work your way up to when i hear the noise his reaction is oh when i hear that noise if i'm chill i'll get a treat and then he's chill and then you give him the treat
John:
uh so that's the theory behind what you're quote-unquote supposed to do and in theory it would work i just have no freaking idea how you would do that i'm i'm not sure his stack is that big like i i don't think he can actually this is how a dog training works it is for the people who know how to do it somehow they're able to train their dogs to like do their taxes for them using this technique through
John:
through a series of very tiny steps like i started out just by by you know like i would knock on the floor with one finger and if the dog didn't bark i would give it a treat and now a marching band can come to the front door and the dog's just their reaction is we're just going to be so relaxed and calm because we know if we just lay here and snore we'll get a treat
John:
I don't know if those were ever Shih Tzus, though.
John:
You say that, and you're like, well, sure, it works for your dog.
John:
Your dog is magic, but it's not going to work for my dog or my breed or whatever.
John:
But the dog training people, I've seen them train all sorts of dogs that you think should not be able to do taxes, and they're just filing returns.
John:
So I don't know.
John:
I don't know what magic they know how to do that we don't know how to do.
John:
But purely with positive reinforcement and a series of minute, mind-numbingly boring steps over the course of months, they train these dogs to do amazing things.
Marco:
i watch too much of this on youtube yeah yeah i don't know i i just like because i don't i don't want to like it's been a while since we've had to train him for anything because he's such a chill dog in every other possible way he always has been so he's actually he's been a very easy dog like to to keep you know on the on the good path um and so i mean he's 12 and so we've had we haven't really had to train much of anything since he was a puppy so people get older you have the same problems
Marco:
i know and and the problem and and he's he's never really been nervous about stuff so like that's another thing where it's like i don't really know how to handle this yet but but one thing for sure like you know it's really hard to watch any apple tv plus shows yeah i mean the other thing i get i get advertised on people talking about the chat room i get advertised on instagram is the like basically pot for dogs right the little doggy drugs like
John:
oh my dog used to be so nervous but now i give him these little druggie treats and he's chill on a car ride oh the cbd i'm not doing that that's that sounds like a terrible idea i don't i mean hey you should try it i mean if you try it and your dog likes it and it solves the problem like you know i don't know you'd have probably talked to your vet about like are any of these actually effective which one of them will not kill my dog like i would say talk to your vet yeah
Marco:
Well, the other thing, too, is, like, he has diabetes.
Marco:
I don't want to, like, mess with stuff too much.
Marco:
Like, I don't even, like, it's already, like, I don't even give him a lot of treats normally anyway just because of that.
Marco:
So, like, I already, if I'm going to, like, you know, train him with treats, I got to figure out, like, okay, what's, like, the, you know, the lowest calorie density treat I can give him that will actually work?
Marco:
And, you know, fortunately, you know, dogs aren't that picky.
Marco:
You know, I can... Give him, like, a one millimeter square of bacon.
John:
No, I mean, he... He's a small dog, so it's hard.
Marco:
Like, his current treat... Yeah, I know.
Marco:
His current treats are these, like, you know, they're basically, like, chicken dust balls.
Marco:
Like, they're...
Marco:
It's like there's not much.
Marco:
They're basically like.
Marco:
That's not an appealing brand name.
Marco:
I know.
Marco:
It's like dried chicken like formed into like a little disc.
Marco:
Their logo is a tumbleweed.
Marco:
Yeah.
Marco:
That's what they look like.
Marco:
They don't look appealing at all, but he's fine.
John:
He has low standards, you know.
John:
Yeah.
John:
The treats we give our dog, I break up into like a thousand pieces because dogs just love the smell of the treat so much.
John:
The fact that they're getting a piece of treat that's the size of like a period at the end of a sentence, they're still just as happy.
John:
And that one treat lasts for like, you know, seven days as you break off tiny pieces of it.
Marco:
yeah i guess he's not he doesn't even like chew or enjoy he just inhales whatever treat you give yeah yeah exactly he's his diabetic food keeps him so he's so hungry all the time poor guy all right i'll have to give that a try i have to like you know look at like what dog trainers say and i don't know i i mean i don't i don't understand how the dog training thing would work i'm just saying that that if you look online you will find people saying try to do this but like they always have scenarios that are just simpler like that you
John:
My dog barks whenever someone knocks at the door.
John:
And you can see the series of steps that you would do to like, how can my dog be successful?
John:
What is like knocking but is minimally invasive?
John:
What if it's not a stranger?
John:
What if it's me?
John:
What if I tap one finger on the floor?
John:
And you can see them building up to it.
John:
But they do it like in a time lapse or like fast forward and now the dog knows how to do it.
John:
And you didn't get to see me spending hours a day, not hours a day, but like, it's only like five minutes a day every single day.
John:
for, you know, six months.
John:
Yeah, exactly.
John:
And then the dog, but that's how dog training actually works and sticks.
John:
And, you know, I don't know if doing with old dogs is more difficult or not, but I would say talk to your vet about like calming treats.
John:
Like there are many, I know because I get them advertised all the time, there are many calming treats for like,
John:
uh, dogs that get nervous in car rides or, you know, freak out when you're not there or so on and so forth.
John:
I, I personally have not had any success for them with my dog, but mostly I was, I was, we tried them a couple of times when, uh, my dog was a puppy and she was, you know, a puppy, but like that's, you know, she grew out of that.
John:
Right.
John:
Um, but for your dog with, with a new thing, especially with senior dogs, maybe your vet knows like, Oh, you can actually try this and it will not be in conflict with the diabetes and has been shown to work on older dogs, but do ask your vet.
Casey:
I wonder, kind of building on what John was saying, I wonder if maybe the approach could be you have Hopps do something he's good at, like stay or sit or something like that.
Marco:
He's a 12-year-old shit boo.
Marco:
His default behavior is staying.
John:
What is he good at?
John:
What is his major skill set?
John:
He mostly does UI kit, but he's learning SwiftUI.
Marco:
He used to be our doorbell, but I think he's been recently caring a lot less about that.
Marco:
So I think he might be retiring from that job.
Casey:
Well, so the point I'm driving at, whatever it may be, so let's suppose that you're in the context of doing sit training, which obviously is kind of silly because he already knows how to do that.
Casey:
But in the midst of that, okay, hop, sit, here's your treat.
Casey:
Hop, sit, here's your treat.
Casey:
In the middle of that, then...
Casey:
have you know one of the glass tones or tritone whatever fire off and if hopefully he's distracted enough to not lose his mind and then maybe you say okay good job here's your treat you know what i mean and like that's an idea it's it's it's almost like a background thing and he only gets the treat if he doesn't lose his friggin mind but if he loses his friggin mind then you say no no you know go and sit and whatever and then try it again in a few minutes and see what happens i don't know that that's what i would
John:
not getting the treat because he lost his mind has no effect on dogs like that like if you don't get the behavior you want and they don't get the reward that has no effect the only thing that has effect is the is rewarding the correct behavior which is so frustrating that's why you have to find someplace where your dog can be successful what is a a thing that is like the thing i'm trying to train but i know my dog will be successful because if your dog fails that's your failure as a trainer they're learning nothing from that they only learn from success you had
John:
They have to succeed.
John:
Whatever it is you're trying to get them to do, whatever increment, they have to succeed and you can only reward the success because you're training them.
John:
This is the behavior I want you to perform.
John:
Everything else, they do not make enough of a connection to understand like you're not getting the treat because you didn't do the behavior.
John:
They're like, there's a million things I could have done.
John:
I have no logical connection to not getting a treat.
John:
All I know is I didn't get one.
John:
So it's all about reinforcing what you want.
John:
The opposite, punishing what you don't want or withholding from what you don't want is not as successful.
Marco:
And I would imagine it's difficult to let the dog succeed in something where they're getting anxious about something.
John:
Yes, that's what I'm saying, like the knocking at the door or the strangers or whatever.
John:
It's like a version of training for people who are afraid of spiders.
John:
You show them a picture of a spider from across the room on day one, and you work your way up over the months to touching a spider, right?
John:
You have to find those increments, but they have to succeed.
John:
Unlike people where you can explain and there's logic and everything, dogs have to succeed.
John:
Yeah.
John:
Whatever it is you're trying to get them to do, you have to find the thing where they succeed and so you can reward it.
John:
And then you keep cranking it up.
John:
And, you know, if you crank it up too fast and they fail, you go back a level.
John:
Let's go back to where you're successful.
John:
Right.
John:
And that's how you that's how you ratchet up that ladder.
John:
Or you could just mute all your computers and silence all your phones.
John:
That's really and and not watch any Apple TV shows.
John:
Yeah.
John:
And then and then don't ever go into a deep enough sleep where the sounds of the TV show does not wake him up.
Marco:
I mean, I have to observe more.
Marco:
I mean, oftentimes his regular tipped over power state on the couch watching TV at night, oftentimes that's when he'll start the adorable sleep barking.
John:
Yeah.
John:
The little twitchy dreams.
Marco:
Oh, God.
Marco:
The best is when he wags his tail and he's like slapping against the couch.
John:
The little paw twitchy dreams.
John:
Yeah, they're great.
John:
And a little whoop, whoop.
Yeah.
Marco:
Just barking without opening his mouth.
Marco:
It's so cute.
Marco:
Yeah, that's usually during that time.
Marco:
So I think he's in deep sleep a lot of that time, but I think it still gets through.
Marco:
I mean, the good thing is, like, these noises are not difficult for us to reproduce.
Marco:
Any Mac I have, I can just, you know, write a shell script in two seconds and just, you know, play it every five seconds if I have to.
Marco:
Like, you know, it doesn't...
Marco:
It's not difficult to generate the noise if that needs to be part of the training, which it probably does.
John:
That's like the end of the training.
John:
Maybe super low volume.
John:
I'm trying to think of what would approximate.
Marco:
Yeah, like something like that.
Marco:
Or have it just play it at random times every few seconds for a few minutes and just try to, I don't know, sit with them.
Marco:
I don't know.
Marco:
I don't know what it is.
Marco:
I got to figure it out.