Ep. 12: "Cold-Calling the Jewess"
Merlin: Hello.
Merlin: Hi, John.
Merlin: How are you?
John: Hi, Merlin.
John: Merlin, man.
John: John.
John: You need a better song for me.
John: I have a song for you.
Merlin: Darling, darling, darling, darling, John.
John: Yeah, all right.
John: That works for me.
Merlin: Doesn't that kind of, it's got a, what's that ping pong when you play the black keys only?
Merlin: That's not Phrygian.
Merlin: What do you call that?
Merlin: When you do that, you know the song I mean, that John Lennon song.
John: Yeah, there's a Radiohead song, too, that's all on the black keys.
John: That's really good.
John: It's that one that's impossible to learn because it was written by geniuses.
Merlin: Ugh, God.
John: Another one I'm talking about?
Merlin: Yeah, I'll bet it's no surprises now.
John: No, no, it's the piano one from one of those later records that was all bleeps and bloops.
Merlin: Yeah, I lost me a little on those.
John: They kept putting out those records that were bleeps and bloops, and I was supposed to not like them, and then every one of them had some great song on it that couldn't have been composed by mere mortals.
John: Really?
John: Just like, oh, you assholes.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: I'm going to write that down.
Merlin: I'm super intrigued by that because it took me a really long time.
Merlin: I sound like John Roderick.
Merlin: It took me a long time to warm up to Radiohead.
Merlin: Not a fan.
Merlin: Can you guess the reason why?
Merlin: I was way over Radiohead and I was fucking tired of hearing about how
Merlin: great Radiohead was, but more importantly, how I had to... We have to listen to the Radiohead.
Merlin: I was so... I liked the Creep song.
John: But you objected to being told that if you didn't like them, you weren't smart.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: It's weird.
Merlin: It's like... I don't know.
Merlin: It's like admitting you don't read books or something.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, you know, I had a... My Radiohead moment... I was working in a magazine store...
John: And I was reading the English pop magazine.
John: Was this in the late magazine store?
John: I was working in a magazine store back in the 60s.
John: Me and Lester Bangs and Tom Wolfe.
John: And it was the best job in the world.
John: It was basically the longest job I ever kept.
John: Because I would sit behind this counter in this newsstand.
John: And people would come in and say, do you have the local newspaper?
John: And I would say, what kind of newspaper stand would this be if we didn't have the local newspaper?
John: And then they would like throw their quarter down on the counter and storm out.
John: And I felt I get to feel superior all day.
John: And I would read the English pop magazines, you know, like.
John: Before Mojo and Q became just about repackaging the Beatles every issue.
John: You're talking about NME?
John: NME was always hard for me to really swallow because... There's a lot of jargon and in-jokes.
John: Yeah, and I wasn't 17 anymore.
John: Their coverage was... Very Volanchi, very Volanchi.
Merlin: Not you, the NME.
John: Oh, them, yes, right.
John: But anyway, so I'm reading this article about the recording of OK Computer.
Merlin: Yeah, super interesting story.
John: Yeah, and it's an in-depth article, and the guy is like waxing romantic about how this record's being made, and oh my God, these guys are making this incredible thing, and you may know them from their Creep song, but this thing, this record is a work of art.
John: And so I'm sitting there at the newsstand, and I pick up the phone, and I call the independent record store,
John: See, this story does take place in the 60s.
John: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
John: You still had phones.
John: You had phones.
John: I picked up the dial, the rotary phone, and I called the independent record store, which was down at the other end of Broadway.
John: Hello, Central.
John: operator get me the record store get off hey you're there you're there johnny johnny get off the get out this party line i got it's an emergency is it christmas day what about that turkey in the window the goose in the window um and i so i called down there and i said hey um so uh do you know is that radiohead record coming out anytime soon and the kid that answered the phone went
John: oh, it came out today.
John: And I said, really?
John: The OK Computer?
John: And he's like, it came out today.
John: It's the release day.
John: And you can hear him.
John: He's talking about it like he started to whisper like he's in church.
John: And I said, wow, is it good?
John: And he said, it's amazing.
John: And I said, well, now I have to have this record.
John: I have to get this record.
John: And he said, no, no, no.
John: You have to get this record.
John: And I said, I know right away you hate him, but this is 19-whatever.
John: 97.
John: And we were having a real phone experience, the two of us.
John: And I said, well, hey, look, I'm working at the magazine store down at the other end of Broadway.
John: And I don't get off till midnight.
John: And he said, oh, man, we close at 11.
John: But here's what I'm going to do.
John: I'll bring it to you.
Merlin: That's a fan.
John: And I said, really?
John: And he said, I'm going to bring it to you right now.
John: And so I sat there at my job and 20 minutes later, in comes this kid with, you know, like wearing some kind of whatever the hipster outfit at the time was, brown Levi's cords with boot cut bottoms and a chain wallet or whatever people wore back in the day.
John: And he's like, you know, and he hands it to me with both hands like, here you go.
John: And I was like, wow, thank you.
John: You know, and I gave him $10 or however much records cost.
Merlin: and uh tuppence i flipped him a copper here you go there you are boy good work crikey governor run along run along i was after him and i was kind of hoping that you would say that he was in a wheelchair like maybe he was gonna he had some kind of md where he hobbled in on a homemade crutch uh so anyway all we have left is his little stool
John: But we all have stories about certain records, like how we found them or why records matter.
John: And the fact that this guy at the record store made this trip, and just the coincidence of like, I'm reading this article, I'm going to call the record store.
John: It's not something I normally do.
John: It always made me treasure it above and beyond the initial experience I had of the music, which was I put it in and...
John: And that first song with its hypnotizing bass line, I wasn't sure if it passed the smell test at first, but it ended up... Of course, it's a great record.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
Merlin: I can't believe... I always thought he said that he went back to save the airbag.
Merlin: And then I had to go and read the lyrics and realize that it's a great... It's a fucking great song on... And that's actually a great image.
John: You could reincorporate that.
Merlin: I might take that in turn.
John: I went back to save the airbag.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Well, like all records, there's only one song on it that I despise.
Merlin: But other than that, it is a pretty much almost flawless record.
Merlin: And I was very... You want to come back to that?
Merlin: You want me to write that down?
John: What song?
John: Please write that down.
John: I bet you can guess.
John: I bet you can even guess.
John: No, I know what song you don't like on the Radiohead record, but what song don't you like on Rumors?
John: Oh, Daddy?
Merlin: I'm not crazy about Oh, Daddy.
Merlin: I don't know if I could do it in my head.
Merlin: You think you can guess?
Merlin: It's got 12 songs.
Merlin: Can you guess?
Merlin: Radiohead?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: I think it's the one song.
Merlin: I'm going to say it's Karma Police.
Merlin: No, not at all.
Merlin: You like Karma Police.
Merlin: Two later.
Merlin: What'd you call me?
Merlin: Sorry, start over.
Merlin: It's in the sequence, in the almost flawless, I know you enjoy a good sequence, electioneering.
Merlin: Oh, really?
Merlin: I think it sticks way out.
Merlin: It's the punky one.
Merlin: It's a skipper.
Merlin: It's a skipper.
Merlin: But, well, gosh, I have so much to follow up with.
John: We don't want to talk about Radiohead, though.
Merlin: I don't mind talking about... Well, here, I just want to say that this is bad on me, because, you know, you call this an availability heuristic, as you like to say.
Merlin: There are certain things where you see a pattern often enough that you go, meh, not for me, right?
Merlin: You know how this is.
Merlin: You do this all the time.
Merlin: You're a very reductive person in a good way.
John: The pattern that I'm expecting now is that you're going to segue somehow into talking about Sloan, and, you know, and it's a...
John: It's a thing I want to put the tie bash on.
John: Okay.
John: I want to talk about Sloan.
Merlin: You never want to talk about Sloan.
Merlin: Eric is the only one that would talk to me about Sloan.
John: There are a lot of people in Seattle that will talk to you about Sloan.
Merlin: I know it's, it's, it's, it's something to name check.
John: They try and talk to me about Sloane.
John: I've seen Sloane a half a dozen times.
Merlin: This came out the same year as one chord to another, if you're curious.
Merlin: How can you not like D turns to G?
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: But seriously, there are albums like this.
Merlin: And I have to say, John, I just feel like I don't know you perfectly well, but I feel like I see this all the time with you.
Merlin: A switch flips and you go, the more I hear about this thing, the more I'm so fucking never going to consume this.
Merlin: personally i mean and i've had a lot of good reason to feel that way there are sometimes when i've been dead wrong there's a lot of times when i'm super right and it's why i fear how i have become the wire guy and the move guy like you got to watch the wire you got to listen to the move and i do it until everybody's sick of it no one likes it and now they're mad and they don't want to go listen to the wire now for me i don't know how this happened also was this recording to castle i gotta look
Merlin: Is this one of those castle recordings?
Merlin: Isn't OK Computer a castle recording?
John: I thought they did it on a canal barge.
John: I think you're thinking of October by U2.
Merlin: Oh, they did.
Merlin: Well, wait a minute.
Merlin: No, U2 definitely recorded in a castle.
Merlin: OK Computer, didn't they record it partly in hallways and bathrooms?
Merlin: Am I thinking of something else?
Merlin: I might be thinking of the Planet Telex record, which I also want to talk about.
John: I'm not sure.
John: I do know that David Gilmore has a studio in a boat on the Thames or something.
Merlin: Just to get away from Roger Waters.
John: Well, because at a certain point it's like I could either throw my money in the Thames or I could build a studio in a barge on the Thames.
John: Like I have too much money and I'm just going to do this.
Merlin: I'm writing this down just so I'll never have to talk about it again.
Merlin: I'm not going to bring up my glove.
John: Is that why you write things down?
John: So you never have to talk about them again?
Merlin: I write things down for a lot of reasons, John.
Merlin: I'm going to get a card on it.
Merlin: Listen, other Merlin who lives in my head.
Merlin: I'm writing this down, and we're done talking about it.
Merlin: You be quiet.
Merlin: You too.
Merlin: I'm just thinking Supergroup involving Mike Love and Roger Waters.
Merlin: We can come back to that if you want.
Merlin: Now, wait a minute.
Merlin: I'm a Roger Waters fan.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
John: Oh, my God.
Merlin: There's like 11 things wrong with that.
Merlin: You're a fan?
Merlin: Yeah, absolutely.
Merlin: Absolutely.
Merlin: I'm a Roger Waters fan.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
John: Mike Love could join that super group that we're putting together with Anthony Kiedis on vocals.
John: I wish you could see this hand thing I'm doing right now.
John: Robbie Krieger on guitar.
John: Like all the best players.
John: Lars Ulrich on drums.
Merlin: Just the cream.
Merlin: You don't think he's a good drummer?
Merlin: Lars?
Merlin: I mean, I don't know who mics his drums.
Merlin: Should we talk about Injustice for All at some point?
Merlin: Will you talk about that with me maybe?
John: Injustice for All is a tremendous record.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah.
Merlin: How do you like this trigger?
John: Drums.
John: There's nothing about the drums in Metallica.
John: This is the thing that is so great about James Hetfield.
Merlin: It sounds like he's playing a phone book.
John: James Hetfield is such a musician, such a tremendous musician, although his taste and his judgment are sometimes in question.
John: Didn't always get the credit.
John: But such a tremendous musician that he has made a massively popular band with some classic music in spite of the fact that his drummer and lead guitar player are both like absolute musical abortions.
Merlin: I don't think they could figure out a turn.
Merlin: They couldn't figure out a turnstile with a Sherpa and a flashlight.
Merlin: I think they're not bright men.
Merlin: When you watch the documentary, I always thought, you know, Hetfield was goofy, you know, and setting aside the alcohol stuff, I thought he was just dumb as shit.
Merlin: And that Kirk Hammett was the genius, the spoodily-doodily-doodily guy.
Merlin: But it's clear that, like, first of all, Hadfield does it all, and he plays a bunch of the good parts, right?
John: He plays them all.
John: He plays all the good parts.
John: And then, you know, then he, like, points through the glass at Kirk Hammett and goes, okay.
John: Spoodily-doodily.
John: All right, you got 45 seconds.
John: Go.
John: Woo!
Merlin: Yeah, and it becomes like that Yngwie-Al Demiola thing where you're just doing runs.
John: I wish that Lars Ulrich's dad was in Metallica.
John: That would be an incredible thing.
Merlin: Bobby Ulrich, what's his name?
John: You remember, he's the little dwarf that lives in a toadstool that appears halfway through the movie and talks shit about all their music.
John: He tucks his beard into his belt like he's one of those guys.
Merlin: I gotta go back.
Merlin: Is this some kind of monster?
John: Yeah, that movie that, oh my, just watching.
John: Terrible record, but like... I did a vitamin B12 shot just having seen the film.
Merlin: But when you walk away, though, like, you're so pulling for Hetfield.
Merlin: Isn't that a weird... I mean, at least I was.
Merlin: The whole time I was like, oh man, he's the Paul.
Merlin: Like, he's the Paul.
Merlin: He's the one who's trying to hold this shit together when he's got, you know, well, not... Paul probably had a few of the problems, the demons, the Hetfield demons, but... You think Paul McCartney had fewer demons than James Hetfield?
Yeah.
Merlin: I think they were probably easier to market.
Merlin: You think he's a demon?
Merlin: You think he's a haunted man, Paul McCartney?
John: Paul, yeah, he's haunted by the fact that nobody takes him seriously.
Merlin: He got divorced from a lady who lost her leg in a mine.
Merlin: I mean, that's complicated.
Merlin: That's a lot of layers to that, John.
Merlin: It was ugly.
John: I'm trying to think.
John: I mean, Paul McCartney, this is the thing about the Beatles that no one ever talks about, which is that, I mean, people talk about it, but it's not like the Zeppelin era where people really talked about it.
John: But the Beatles, I mean, think about all the birds that they shagged when shagging birds was a thing you could do.
John: And then Paul McCartney marries a 45-year-old one-legged girl.
Merlin: And before that, it was the photo lady who couldn't sing.
John: The photo lady who couldn't sing and frankly wasn't pretty.
Merlin: You ever heard soundcheck where it's just her monitors?
Merlin: I have.
Merlin: Oh my God.
John: Did you ever eat one of her frozen dinners?
Merlin: No, no, but I've seen them used to hold a door open.
Merlin: A vegan door.
Merlin: Really?
Merlin: Yes, made of pleather.
John: I remember walking through a supermarket and seeing her face peering out at me through the frozen, you know, like her vegan meals behind the freezer compartment.
John: And I just thought, oh, that tastes terrible.
Merlin: I thought it tastes terrible to look at it.
John: It tastes like an old panty.
John: Did she pass?
Merlin: oh yeah she's paul would never have divorced her they were that was like the love of the ages well i think he was trying to do a yoko thing you've seen the john lennon ice cream you ever seen the john lennon ice cream no the ben and jerry's uh oh god what's the horrible man imagine you know world peas or whatever what's it called like imagine chocolate swirl or whatever you know like everything a portion of the proceeds go to charity
Merlin: Okay, I encourage you, next time you go to your store that sells ice cream, and I know I buy a lot of ice cream.
Merlin: Next time you go, I took a photo of this, put it on the internet one time, but go and look at the service mark.
Merlin: It's just, I know this is five shows.
Merlin: We can't get into it.
Merlin: But it literally says on it, John Lennon is a trademark of Yoko Harano.
Merlin: And I know, I understand.
Merlin: Life is complicated in laws or the way they are.
Merlin: But I was like, you are.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: That's been true for a pretty long time.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: I got a copy of that.
Merlin: I got a copy of that.
Merlin: Let it be.
Merlin: But I can't watch it.
Merlin: I got the Beatles.
Merlin: I want to talk about Beatles and birds.
John: I'm reading glasses right now.
John: They aren't my prescription.
John: I don't know why I put them on, but it's making everything look super convex.
Merlin: Are these those half glasses?
John: No, no, they look like real glasses, but they're magnifying glasses instead of... Oh, so you look like John Linnell?
Merlin: You got, like, big eyes?
John: Super big eyes.
Merlin: Is that right?
Merlin: At the time I met him, John Linnell had absurd, jokey, like, magic store glasses on that made his eyes look like the size of silver dollars.
John: He has very thick glasses, but he also has huge eyes.
Merlin: He's a very, very handsome man.
Merlin: That floppy hair is hard to do.
John: Yeah, he's the kind of handsome where you just feel like snuggling up in his armpit.
John: It's a different kind of handsome.
Merlin: And he seems like about the last guy in the world that would let you do that.
Merlin: He would not let you do that, no.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: If John Vanderslice, you could get in the dog bed with him and just roll around.
Merlin: He'd be totally into it.
John: You know what?
John: Funny you should mention that.
John: Vanderslice is here right now snuggling in my armpit.
John: Oh, my God.
John: I love you, man.
John: I'm like, JV, come on.
John: I'm doing a podcast.
John: And he's like, oh, man.
John: I love you, man.
John: Roderick.
Merlin: Okay, here's what I've got right now.
Merlin: We've got to come back to the Beatles.
Merlin: I think we need to tackle the Paul issue at length because I have some very strong Paul feelings.
John: I really do too, but I don't feel like I can start talking about Paul.
Merlin: No, you need to stretch.
Merlin: It's like yoga.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: I've also got the radiohead wheelchair.
Merlin: I want to talk about my cured meats.
Merlin: I want to drill down a little bit more on recording in a castle.
Merlin: I think that might be a Brian Eno thing.
John: It's a huge, the recording in a castle, that's the bottom thing, right?
John: They made all the bottom drum sounds in the stairwell of the castle.
Merlin: I thought he put aluminum foil in his kick drum.
John: Did you ever hear that?
John: No, I didn't hear that.
John: I did hear that he would throw a drumstick at any recording engineer that got within 15 feet of his kit.
John: Good for him.
John: He mic'd his own drums?
John: Well, he didn't want close micing.
John: He only wanted the far mics.
John: Recording engineers always want to put a mic close up.
Merlin: Makes their job easier.
John: So they'd sneak in and they'd start moving the mics toward his kit and he'd huck sticks at them until they got scared and ran away.
Merlin: If you get an SM57 far enough up an engineer's ass, you get a very, very dry sound is what they call it in the industry.
John: Are you speaking from personal experience now?
Merlin: I mean, don't you use, like for a snare, SM57 is pretty flexible for a drumster, not on the kick, but you can get by with an SM57, right?
John: You can put an SM57 on any instrument.
Merlin: You can hammer nails with that shit all day long.
John: You can do anything.
John: You can make an entire record with just one SM57.
Merlin: I can't tell you how many stinky SM57s I have smelled.
Merlin: I have smelled some really bad SM57s, and they all pretty much work.
Merlin: It's always the cord.
Merlin: It's very seldom the mic.
John: They smell like low tide, like the tide goes out, and then the crustaceans are kind of rotting there on the beach.
John: That's what a lot of those mics smell like.
Merlin: Low tide.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Were you ever a ribbon mic guy?
John: I've certainly used them.
John: I think they're wonderful.
Merlin: Did you ever bring your own in a box and shit like that?
Merlin: No.
John: Those are expensive.
Merlin: Oh, they are expensive in the ribbon.
Merlin: I mean, that ain't no SM57.
Merlin: Don't those break super easy?
Merlin: If you sing too loud, it can break.
John: The new ones are more robust.
Merlin: That doesn't sound ribbon-y.
Merlin: I want to get back to recording in the castle.
John: The SM57 is like the Telecaster.
John: They made it perfect the first time.
Merlin: You could put it in the trunk.
Merlin: You could take it apart and put it in the trunk.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: We should come back to that.
Merlin: I had a telecaster.
Merlin: I had a great telecaster.
John: But recording in a castle, what you're thinking of is Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman.
John: Oh.
John: She owns a castle that she rents out to bands to record.
John: Hmm.
John: Is that true?
John: Yeah, she lives in a castle, and when she's making Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman or whatever, she makes other films and stuff, I think.
John: Hmm.
John: She rents this out to rock bands, her house.
John: What?
John: Make albums.
Merlin: Does she have a webpage for that?
Merlin: That's my job.
John: She's an actress.
John: She's Anne Hathaway or somebody.
Merlin: I saw her boobies in something once when she was young.
Merlin: You know who she was?
Merlin: She was in a James Bond movie.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Yeah, she was a Bond girl.
Merlin: I'll look that up.
Merlin: Telecaster.
Merlin: I think I've told you this story.
Merlin: Well, first of all, part B, I haven't – we've explored this a little bit offline and talking to some of our non-fans.
Merlin: But I think it would be interesting to – this is a really dumb idea.
Merlin: But I was thinking it would be fun at some point to do a series on REM records, the ones that I'm familiar with.
John: This is an idea.
John: I'm just tossing that out.
John: Are you somebody that includes green or somebody that stops?
Merlin: I was just out of generosity.
Merlin: I was going to say monster, but green would be fine with me.
Merlin: Oh, you'd go all the way to monster?
Merlin: See, just because I love.
Merlin: I'm an internet personality.
Merlin: I have to please people, John.
John: Yeah.
John: No, no, no.
John: I stop at green.
John: Stop before green.
John: Up to green.
John: I know every note.
John: Okay, is this how you want to roll?
John: From green on?
John: It's like, okay, whatever.
Merlin: You want to stop at Life Rich Pageant?
Merlin: You're not going to get an argument from me.
John: Pick your tunes or whatever.
John: And I'm speaking as a super fan.
John: Okay.
Merlin: I, you know what, let's keep it, let's keep it tight.
Merlin: I think, okay, so what, what's the one after life's pageant?
Merlin: That's, uh, that's green.
Merlin: Is that green?
Merlin: Uh, 86.
Merlin: Let's come back to this.
Merlin: Anyway, my point being, you know, uh, when you're younger and you have a modest amount of money, this takes us back to the independent record store thing.
Merlin: I would go to Tampa to this place called final fever, uh, to buy records.
Merlin: It's like a, you know, half hour, 45 minute drive.
Merlin: You go there and hit great records at imports.
Merlin: It's where I bought my level terrorists apart seven inch.
Merlin: It's like where, where you go to buy your records.
John: Um,
John: Do you still have that level terrace apart 7-inch?
Merlin: You bet I do.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: And with BW, you know what BW stands for?
Merlin: Backed with.
Merlin: Did you know that?
Merlin: Backed with.
Merlin: BW.
Merlin: They see BW and don't know what that means.
Merlin: It's level terrace apart BW these days.
Merlin: And I bought it in 1989.
Merlin: five or six in europe or in tampa yes and like a lot of the factory director you know it costs it costs them literally 17 to make each one of those and they only charged a quid nobody even knows what a quid is quid is a uh it's a it's a how many okay so how many you got farther you guys how many part you got so many far you got shit shillings go into uh going to parsecs parsecs go into tuppence tuppence going to bob coppers how many how many bobs are in a copper
John: I think it's four bobs to a copper.
John: Copper's your uncle.
John: And then 11 teen coppers to sixpence.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: And then what's the Exchequer?
Merlin: The Exchequer is like the, not the Secretary of State, it's like the, it's a finance person, Exchequer, right?
John: Well, it's, yeah, it's like the Minister of Finance, yeah.
Merlin: I had this long list of names that I wanted for bands that were all uniformly awful.
Merlin: And I really, when I was in high school, I really wanted a band called Exchequer.
John: Hmm.
John: That's a good name.
John: No, it's not.
Merlin: It's really not.
Merlin: So I'd heard the reviews.
Merlin: I'd heard the end of year lists.
Merlin: I'd seen the paths and job.
Merlin: I'd seen it all.
Merlin: And I knew clearly in order for me to make this next step in my life, I was going to go have to go buy a copy of this album called murmur.
Merlin: okay and this is at a time this is a very strange point for me because this is when on a trip to vinyl fever i might walk away with the secret policeman's other ball uh the the thompson twins into the gap and in a joint you might buy that that zapper record that's all orchestral arrangements i was like i want to i want a zapper record
John: This one's only 99 cents.
Merlin: Ship arriving too late to save $8.69.
Merlin: So I go in there.
Merlin: It's almost closing time.
Merlin: You remember this, right?
Merlin: And you're sitting there.
Merlin: These kids today don't understand this.
Merlin: You just go and download the entire Who's Career Do discography and come back from lunch and you got it all.
John: There's so much they don't understand.
Merlin: No, they don't understand.
Merlin: This is truly an economic decision.
Merlin: And I'm sitting there, and I don't remember what the other record... I really do have this weird recollection of it being a Thompson Twins record, but I'm probably misremembering that.
Merlin: Because I'm not sure Into the Gap was out yet.
John: It could have been Fun Boy 3.
Merlin: Oh, sure.
Merlin: They did something with Bananarama, right?
Merlin: They did Our Lips Are Sealed.
Merlin: Our Lips Are Sealed?
Merlin: Is that Fun Boy 3?
John: The singer of Fun Boy 3 co-wrote Our Lips Are Sealed with Jane Wheatland, and they each did a different version of it on their respective records.
John: Jane Whedland wrote that?
John: Can you believe that?
John: Jane Whedland wrote a lot of the hits.
John: I mean, she was a great songwriter.
John: Are you friends with her?
John: Are you friends with her on Twitter?
Merlin: Oh, total super Fox.
Merlin: She's a pixie.
John: I tried to be friends with her on Twitter.
Merlin: You wear too much fur.
John: There was a culture gap, a communication gap.
Merlin: We've got to come back to this.
John: She was living in a different... You know what I did this week?
Merlin: I started following Amy Mann, so now I'm following Amy Mann.
John: Amy Mann, she's a real Facebooker.
John: She does the Facebook very well because she likes longer form...
Merlin: I have to give her some longer form.
Merlin: That's not even funny.
Merlin: What if I was Romeo in black jeans?
Merlin: Here's the thing.
Merlin: Don't you like that Michael Penn record?
Merlin: You ever hear that one with the no myth on it?
John: Great record.
Merlin: That's the one she's married to, right?
Merlin: It's not John Bryan, right?
John: No, she's married to Michael Penn.
Merlin: And John Bryan's the one that was in the band with Jason Faulkner.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: The Jason Faulkner's great.
John: He's also great.
John: Matthew Speed, also great.
John: You've seen him lately?
Yeah.
John: Big guy now.
John: Big fella.
John: And he's making records with Susanna Hoffs, who's still just as beautiful as she ever was.
Merlin: Oh, God.
Merlin: That cover of September Girls is awful.
Merlin: The thing is, so I'm in the store, right?
Merlin: I think it's at, where am I at?
Merlin: I can't even do this.
Merlin: 14th and Fletcher, I think, in Tampa.
John: Anyway.
John: 14th and Fletcher.
John: So right in the heart of Tampa.
Merlin: uh it's it's it's it's in the bong and bondage gear district yes and so i think it's near that near that ventricle of uh it's near that university i'm super grateful i didn't end up going to yeah the one that's all that looks like a like a wedding cake
Merlin: No, no, no, no, no.
Merlin: That's the University of Tampa.
Merlin: Totally different head.
John: That's such a fancy-looking university.
Merlin: It is.
Merlin: It is.
Merlin: And I think they've got a bookstore and a place where they give out the diplomas.
Merlin: So I'm in Vinyl Fever.
Merlin: And, okay, so you know record store guy, right?
Merlin: It's not that different than camera store guy, guitar store guy, comic book guy.
Merlin: You know, there's a type.
Merlin: And I got to say, I also used to be video store guy.
Merlin: There was a video store guy in Sarasota that loved fucking with people.
Merlin: Because you go in and it was an awesome indie, like you could go and get all these crazy, you know, whatever, you know, hard to find film you could get.
Merlin: And if you ask him for advice and he thought you were a bozo, he would recommend something horrible to you.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: You should try Stars and Bars.
Merlin: God, this is awful.
Merlin: So anyway, I go in there and I know I told you this, but I treasure this story.
Merlin: I go in there, I'm holding two LPs in my hands and I'm like...
Merlin: You know, 869.
Merlin: You know, that's 869.
Merlin: They can't go to anything else, right?
Merlin: And I'm like, this R.A.M.
Merlin: record, this Murmur, I hear a lot about it.
Merlin: And, you know, is this good?
Merlin: Should I get this?
Merlin: And without missing a beat, he goes, it's pretty good if you like keyboard-oriented music.
Merlin: Oh, the classic code.
Merlin: Tick-tock, tick-tock, this door is closing.
Merlin: I'm now holding something like the Thompson Twins, maybe in the name of love.
Merlin: And a record that is.
Merlin: And a record with kudzu on the cover that might be keyboard-oriented.
Merlin: Keyboard music.
Merlin: Keyboard-oriented music.
Merlin: And you know what?
Merlin: I did it.
Merlin: I bit the bullet.
Merlin: You bought it?
Merlin: I took it home.
Merlin: I spun it.
Merlin: I want to say I got it at the same time as Secret Policing's other ball.
Merlin: But anyway, my friends literally laughed at me because I did the thing that you hate.
Merlin: I know you hate this.
Merlin: You know what I did.
Merlin: I did the thing.
Merlin: I did the needle popping.
John: I would go first 10 seconds of every track.
John: Oh, God, I want to strangle you when you do that.
Merlin: And my friend who still was not out of the closet went...
Merlin: My God, it's a country record.
Merlin: And then, you know, the Merlin of 19, I guess that was probably 84.
Merlin: I was a little late to the game.
Merlin: No, I was a little late to the game.
Merlin: But Reckoning was the one that really, really, really grabbed me.
John: That's a great keyboard country record.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: If you love keyboard-oriented...
Merlin: country music yeah sure bob wills texas playboy centerfold i uh murmur makes a ton more sense i tell all my kids this i i say start with the chronic town jump to reckoning and then you're ready maybe for murmur get the remastered version a whole different world this is something you say to merlin's i say this to all my kids you know when you walk through a store ask if it's keyboard oriented
Merlin: He didn't pass, did he?
Merlin: Jerry Lewis is still with us, right?
Merlin: Jerry Lewis?
John: Yeah.
John: Of the two of us, you are the one who would know the current status and whereabouts of Jerry Lewis.
Merlin: You know, I have exactly one person I can talk to.
Merlin: You know who this is.
Merlin: Yeah, I have exactly one person.
Merlin: Robin Goldwasser is the only person I can talk to about...
Merlin: Not only can you talk to her about it, but... She matches me shot for shot, literally.
Merlin: Literally shot for shot on Jerry Lewis.
John: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to blow up the fourth wall here and speak to you directly.
Merlin: No, John, that's really... John, please don't address our listeners directly.
John: And I'm going to say that Merlin, on the topic of Jerry Lewis, is a thing to behold.
John: He should have a Jerry Lewis-centered podcast all to himself.
Merlin: Would you say it's multifaceted as well as deep?
John: I think that you love Jerry Lewis both earnestly and ironically.
Merlin: I love the complexity of Jerry Lewis.
Merlin: So there's plenty of room for irony with the love and the giving and the thing.
Merlin: This is an industry that fears a genius.
John: But there's also the inescapable truth, which is that you resemble Jerry Lewis.
John: Okay.
John: You know what?
John: Here's the deal.
John: Here's the deal.
John: Identification.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: I'll see your discomfort and raise you an asshole.
Merlin: From now on, if you really want to get me, when I go Valanche, you can go Jim Carrey.
Merlin: Because if I hear that one more time, I'm going to fucking gut somebody.
Merlin: I'm going to gut it.
Merlin: I'm going to do like in the old Kung Fu movies.
Merlin: I'm going to show them their heart world still beating.
John: Yeah.
John: You don't remind me of Jim Carrey.
John: Your face isn't as elastic.
Merlin: I got a pretty elastic face.
Merlin: I'm aging.
John: He's aging.
John: But Jerry Lewis, you pull some... Here's the thing.
Merlin: This is the high level.
Merlin: I'm going to give you the elevator pitch on Jerry Lewis.
Merlin: First of all, stop what you're doing.
Merlin: Go... Not to the bookstore.
Merlin: Go to your computer and buy The King of Comedy by Sean Levy, which is the started... It started... Sorry, I'm doing that lozenge thing that Jerry does.
Merlin: It started as an authorized biography...
Merlin: And quickly became totally unauthorized.
Merlin: And it is about a man.
Merlin: You will hear about how he paid a bellboy to crush up his Percocets.
Merlin: You will hear about him throwing a champagne bottle at a wall and saying, I christen this hotel motherfucker.
Merlin: You will hear how he kept a loaded gun.
Merlin: In the bathroom next to his drugs that his family found.
Merlin: I won't go on.
Merlin: Only Robin understands me on this.
John: You know, you need a gun in the bathroom.
John: I'm with him 100% there.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: Never mind.
Merlin: Never mind.
Merlin: I'm not going to ask you this.
Merlin: I've learned with my friends who are crazy with the weapons not to ask them too many questions because there's a certain you need an element of surprise.
John: That's right.
John: If somebody says, where are all the guns in your house?
John: Right.
John: And you go, oh, well, let me tell you where all the guns are.
John: It's like saying, where's your porn?
Merlin: It's distributed.
Merlin: It's like you've got to level your resources.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
John: I don't want to come home and meet a guy who has been in my house for half an hour and collected all my guns.
Merlin: He's holding your best gun and the rest are on the coffee table by the candles.
John: He's petting my best gun.
John: And he's like, welcome home, John.
John: I'm a big fan of your podcast.
Merlin: Why don't you have a seat?
Merlin: I suppose you're wondering why I've called you all here.
Merlin: I want to talk about the candles too.
Merlin: I'm going to come back to that.
Merlin: A lot of fucking candles.
John: Oh, I moved the candles.
Merlin: Oh my God.
Merlin: It's so creepy, John.
John: It's massively successful.
John: I moved the candles.
John: All onto the piano?
John: Onto the piano.
Merlin: It's so creepy.
Merlin: I got to get a photo of that for the thing.
John: Super creepy.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: R.E.M.
Merlin: Record Store.
Merlin: Jane Wheatland.
Merlin: Oh, yes.
Merlin: Shoot.
Merlin: We dropped some threads here.
Merlin: Amy, man.
Merlin: She seems cool.
Merlin: Facebook thing.
Merlin: That's a non-starter for me.
Merlin: Jane Wheatland, we've already done.
Merlin: Indie Record Store.
Merlin: And Justice for...
Merlin: You know, we can pretty much take this anywhere you want.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: It would be kind of lame to have a feature on here.
Merlin: I think, you know, part of what makes Roderick on the line such a national sensation is that it's, you know, whatever.
John: Podcast blogs.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: They really did lose me, though.
Merlin: I mean, that's why I've said they should be four bands.
Merlin: Because I really like one of those bands.
Merlin: I'm okay with the second band.
Merlin: And then, you know, I'm just glad they're successful.
Merlin: I'm happy for them.
John: Are we talking about R.E.M.?
John: Well, we don't have to.
John: We're talking about Sloan.
John: Who are you talking about right now?
John: I was talking about R.E.M.
John: REM.
John: You know, the great insight that I had into REM.
Merlin: They get Ken Stringfell a job, though.
Merlin: Nothing wrong with that.
John: There's so much wrong with that.
Merlin: They just prolonged his life.
Merlin: They gave him new places to find fresh blood.
John: When Peter Buck was living here in Seattle, I learned through my good friend Sean Nelson, who was recording some songs with him, that the way that REM writes songs is that Peter writes 600 songs and records them
John: in his attic with baseline guitar, mandolin, all that stuff.
John: He just makes, he makes CDs with 30 tracks on them.
John: Every one of them sounds like a classic REM song.
John: Hmm.
John: And then he sends those CDs to the other guys and Michael Stipe like picks which ones he likes to start, you know, writing his parts to.
Merlin: He's always done.
Merlin: I mean, apparently on reckoning, this is a, well, do you have the remasters?
Merlin: Do you have the re-releases?
Yeah.
Merlin: I don't.
Merlin: Oh, you know what?
Merlin: I'm not that guy, but I'm just telling you.
Merlin: You know how Murmur is such a headphones album?
Merlin: Most people don't realize how much of a headphones album that is.
Merlin: You're not even going to believe how Murmur sounds in the new version.
Merlin: And you know, my ears are dead.
Merlin: My ears are totally dead.
Merlin: But Reckoning and also the bonus stuff on both, the bonus concert on both are great.
Merlin: But seriously, you need to get those.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: I'll help you with that.
John: The classic line from the recording of Murmur was just like...
John: It's the first band in history where all four guys keep saying, can you turn me down?
John: Can you turn me down in the mix?
John: Like, I'd like my parts to be lower in the mix.
John: Like, the only band in history that all four guys were fighting to be... I can't believe, like, I mean, Bill Berry.
Merlin: God damn, I love that guy's drumming.
Merlin: He's like, he's a Ringo, you know?
Merlin: The guy's just so fucking solid.
Merlin: And I don't know, I mean, some people say he has a limited palate, but I just, I love his drumming, so...
Merlin: much nothing wrong with limited palette drumming well that's the thing is go listen to rain oh my christ you know what i'm gonna move this card further away put it over here the uh you think it listened to rain and when people when people give that that bullshit about ringo not being a great drummer like go listen to rain usually the people that don't like ringo's drumming are lars lars ulrich sorry coincidentally megadeth fans oh i like megadeth there's nothing about megadeth to like
Merlin: Nothing at all.
Merlin: Nothing about Megadeth.
Merlin: You don't think he's kind of interesting?
John: I do not think he's interesting.
Merlin: I think Megadeth of the big four is a little overrated.
Merlin: I think they're a little campy compared to the other stuff of the time.
John: Here's what Megadeth is.
John: Megadeth is a jar of pre-mixed ketchup and mayonnaise.
John: That's French dressing.
John: That's French dressing.
John: Well, but not mixed like... Mustard mustard mayonnaise?
John: Not mixed together so that it's kind of light orange.
John: I'm talking about mixed together like that peanut butter and jelly that is kind of swirling.
Merlin: Oh, like an epoxy with the two tubes.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: It's like that.
Merlin: He's like metal epoxy.
John: He's terrible.
John: And you know what?
Merlin: What do you mean I sound like mayonnaise and ketchup?
John: I'm not catching up with anyone.
Merlin: I think at least 10 years, he has been completely into the G's.
Merlin: Is that really your official name for our Lord and Savior?
Merlin: The Jesus.
Merlin: Is that right?
Merlin: Because all of a sudden I understand what the fuck you're talking about.
Merlin: Is that who you're talking about?
John: Yeah, the Jesus.
John: The Jesus.
John: Okay.
John: The Jesus.
John: The thing is that there has been a process over the last 15 years of really making Jesus more and more hip all the time.
John: You know, like 50 years ago, rock and roll music was still like...
John: Like devil Jigaboo music.
Merlin: I really, really, John, this is a three-parter.
Merlin: I so want to talk about all of this.
John: Now rock and roll is like, now it's Jesus music.
John: Certainly in Seattle, there is a lot of Jesus.
Merlin: Can you talk with Mr. Zan about this much?
John: We talk about it almost... He seems like a nice guy.
John: So we're unconscious from lack of oxygen.
Merlin: Can you hook me up with him?
Merlin: I'd like to meet that guy.
John: I will.
John: I'll put you guys together.
Merlin: What about Carl Newman?
Merlin: Can you do me up with Carl Newman?
Merlin: You don't really know Carl Newman.
John: No, I... I introduced myself once.
Merlin: I introduced myself once at a new pornographer show.
Merlin: Like my first introduction to John Doe.
Merlin: I was... How many sheets to the wind can you be?
Merlin: Did you lick him?
I...
Merlin: he's seen you know he's a very uh he's he's he strikes me you know except when he's getting crazy with the hockey on the twitter and um he's a very he strikes me as a you know not shy but he's not like a run around go out and get out there kind of guy and i tried to be my shy in fact i would even go that far
Merlin: Okay, well, I'm doing my best, like, don't be creepy that I can do, given that I am the world's maybe single and giantest Zumpano fan of all time and an old school from the first note new pornographers fan.
Merlin: And it went very, very badly, very badly.
Merlin: So I don't even want to talk about that.
John: Well, the thing about Carl Newman in my experience, I mean, I was always a massive fan.
John: Did you like Zumpano?
John: How can you not like Zimpano?
John: I know Sean likes Zimpano.
John: You into Zimpano?
Merlin: Zimpano's amazing.
Merlin: They were on Sub Pop.
John: Sean and Eric Corson, former bass player of The Long Winters, they both introduced me to Zimpano.
John: Former.
John: I'm writing that down.
John: But in any case, Carl was like a hero.
John: And then after a show one time, we played in New York.
John: After a show, Nabeel, our drummer, was like, oh, yeah, I was just hanging out with Carl Newman.
John: And I was like...
John: he was the bill who used to have a record store and now runs a label i'll run the label he was like i was just hanging out with carl and i was like he was here and he was like oh yeah yeah yeah he's a he's a long winners fan at the show and we're hanging out afterwards and i was like what why didn't you come get me and he was like
John: Oh, I don't know.
John: It was just hanging out together with him.
John: I'm Nabil.
John: I don't think about these things.
John: Went and had some dinner even.
John: And I was like, oh, you bastard.
John: So I knew that he liked The Long Winters and that he had seen us play.
John: And so the next time we were standing together, as we had done before, kind of standing backstage at a rock show, I kind of sidled over to him like, hey, how's it going?
John: I'm John, you know, and he's like, oh, hey, you know.
John: Did he know you were in the band?
John: Yeah, yeah.
John: I mean, he knew who I was.
John: Oh, he'd seen you on stage.
John: As I say, he has seen me play.
John: Right.
John: But there was that feeling of like, so you and me, here we are standing next to each other now and we know each other and know each other's music.
John: So it's okay for me to say...
John: hey, I really like that... The Sylvia Hotel song you do is really good.
John: I really like that record you made.
John: And it immediately went completely sideways because he was just like, oh, thanks.
John: And then I'm like, and... Really?
John: So was it awkward?
Yeah.
John: Well, only because I made it awkward.
John: Like, he wasn't being awkward.
John: He was being normal.
John: I was being awkward.
Merlin: You know what, John?
Merlin: I retract my request.
Merlin: I already feel bad about asking.
Merlin: I don't want to freak that guy out.
John: No, no, no.
John: But this is the thing.
John: So over time now, we have seen each other multiple times.
John: We communicate via email.
John: We tweet back and forth.
John: And it's just one of those things where...
John: you don't you cannot you can't sidle up to him and and expect him to um he's not going to like he's like a cat right you gotta wait for him to come to you yeah exactly he's not gonna say oh my god hi a super fan you know car parts boom because he's just he's you know he's a shire shire he's on the shire end of the spectrum
John: But I find him an amazing songwriter and a super, he's a super, super nice guy.
Merlin: He's an incredible songwriter.
Merlin: And they have, if you can dig it, I don't know if you saw the thing I linked to, but their version of that Jimmy Webb Orange Air song, flip side of BW of Rap Around Shades.
Merlin: Somebody out there, it might be the same dude who linked to all those...
Merlin: uh they did like a whole session of not jimmy but of like baccarat david songs and you know and they're not even doing that whole like did you say baccarat david baccarat uh baccarat cal david oh i see okay who'd you think i meant was that you think i was doing a jewish thing i thought you were doing a yoda thing walk on by i will
Merlin: You don't understand that joke.
Merlin: You're not a fan.
Merlin: I have the box set, bitch.
Merlin: I have the Bacharach box set.
Merlin: The last one to be.
Merlin: Anyway, I cut you off.
John: How did you just get reverb on your voice?
John: All of a sudden, you step back from the mic and it sounded like you were going to... I'm doing that Chris Walla thing, you know?
John: Echo chamber.
Merlin: Yeah, no, that's because I have great mic skills.
Merlin: Did you know that, John Roddick?
Merlin: That's why it's so overdriven when I do this.
John: What happens if I back off from my mic?
John: Do I get reverb?
Merlin: I'm leaving you all of my car parts.
Merlin: I'm sorry, I cut...
Merlin: I'm really sorry I cut off the Skype jam, by the way.
Merlin: I'll never do that again.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
John: Well, you got a little shit for cutting off the Skype jam.
John: I saw on the internet people were saying, why did you cut off the Skype jam?
Merlin: Yeah, both listeners were mad, your girlfriend and the other one.
Merlin: So I cut you off before Carl Newman, you, and it was post-Amy Mann.
Merlin: God, this is so star fucky.
Merlin: Oh, Pete Buck?
Merlin: Pete Buck.
John: Yeah, what about Pete Buck?
Merlin: Oh, I heard a pick slide.
Merlin: I heard it.
Merlin: Don't make me get that out.
Merlin: What is those car parts is in A or C?
Merlin: What's it in?
Merlin: Car parts?
Merlin: You know, I learned it all the way through one time.
John: In D, I think, or E.
Merlin: That first half second of that song takes the wind out of me.
Merlin: The big inhalation.
Merlin: I love it so much.
John: It's pop music.
John: It's so fucking good.
John: You never see it coming.
John: You don't see it coming.
John: That's the thing about pop music.
John: You never see it coming.
John: And then, poof, there it is.
Merlin: Well, you know, there's some songs.
Merlin: You could never create this without it being stupid.
Merlin: But that song...
Merlin: mother of god hello it's me um uh there's some beatles songs like this uh but where there's the little like you know what i mean if you tried to do this it'd be really stupid but when you've got the little like before the song thing you know you remember the hidden track deal my band always did this and it was totally stupid remember the 90s thing of always having a hidden track of course you had to have a hidden track it was so played out now now wait a minute now you with the with the dog and your dad singing that's that is that a hidden track
John: Well, here's the problem with that track.
John: It's a great song.
John: So we needed 10 songs for the first record.
Merlin: To fulfill your deal with Barsouk.
Merlin: Yeah, and I only had nine songs.
Merlin: I could see Josh chewing on a cigar.
Merlin: These nine songs aren't going to work, kid.
Merlin: Listen, kid, you need ten songs.
Merlin: You need a cover song about a grass shack, see?
John: And I had nine songs, and it was a plenty long enough record.
John: It could have been nine songs, but we needed ten songs.
John: And this song, Little Grass Shack, was a song my dad used to sing to me when I was a little kid.
John: And he sang it to me my whole life.
John: When my dad and I were driving in the car, if we were driving for very long, one of us would start singing it and the other one would take the harmony parts and we would sing the Little Grass Shack.
John: So I'm like, well, I don't have a 10th song.
John: I mean, I did, but I didn't have one that I was ready to record.
John: And so we did Little Grass Shack.
John: Well, then it turns out, I thought that this song was just some song that the slaves sang to each other.
Merlin: Is it like Pete Seeger or something?
John: Well, no, but it is a song that still was under copyright.
John: It was written by somebody and the sheet music was still out there.
John: And it was owned by...
John: One of the big music publishers, you know, Sony BMG or whatever.
John: Did you get ass capped?
John: Well, no, because we put it on the record and just didn't
John: mentioned that it was on the record like there's there's only nine songs technically on that record the 10th song isn't really hidden because it's it's it's not to have it be a truly hidden track on a on a 90s style pop record there needs to be 20 seconds 17 minutes of silence yeah so it comes on as a surprise nah
John: In fact, what was the record?
John: There was one that had like 17 minutes before it went into the... Was it Michelle Shocked or maybe Indigo Girls?
John: There was one of those records that had a hidden track.
Merlin: What the fuck, John?
Merlin: Where are you coming up with these?
John: Michelle Shocked or... George Winston?
John: I was staying over at a girl's house.
John: I believe it was Keith Jarrett, I believe.
John: 87 or something like that.
John: And we're all baked and we're making it out and we're listening to Michelle Shock, you know, like you did.
John: Uh-huh.
John: Like you did.
John: Campfire, around the campfire in Alaska, right?
John: Maybe we were listening to, you know, You Got a Fast Car, Tracy Chapman, all that.
John: That was the time when you could be a dude and listen to girls.
John: Are you going to play Fast Car right now?
Merlin: Oh, sorry.
I was going to... Let's see.
Merlin: I went to see the doctor of the divinity.
Merlin: That's a total abuse of the D-sus four.
Merlin: I should be the fucking mayor of D-sus four.
Merlin: That music really... Anyway, you were high and sleeping in a car in Alaska and listening to the lesbian song about the car.
John: I was high and sleeping with a girl who... And this was before girls like... You're turning into Mickey Rooney.
John: This was before girls relentlessly shaved all the hair off of themselves.
John: Ah, Yoko.
John: This is when girls were like, you know, natural girls, and they were like boys, basically, but with girl parts.
Merlin: Yeah, like a Japanese shrub situation.
John: Yeah, and you'd sleep with each other and listen to lesbian guitar music.
John: I did that.
John: This is the 80s.
John: Anyway, and so we fall asleep.
John: We're not 100% asleep.
John: We're just like 98% asleep and baked.
John: The being baked was taking care of the last 2% of awakeness.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: and then this this record with the 17 minutes of silence like another song comes on i don't think it was michelle's shock something else another song comes on we both like jump up out of bed because it was you know it was kind of cranked and and uh last thing we were expecting jump up out of bed like into into combat pose while you're high yeah just like
John: And, uh, and it turned out it was, it was a, it was a secret track.
Merlin: I had two of those songs when I'd be baked and going to sleep in college for me.
Merlin: Um, I don't, I think it was, uh, I want to say, I don't know by one of the, one of the replacement songs.
Merlin: I'm pleased to meet me, but it's a song where you hear this, like, um, you hear this, like, like coming out of like stereo, right?
Merlin: And it's like, and then there's a church song.
Merlin: It does the same thing even more.
Merlin: So I think, uh, almost with you.
Merlin: Uh, it's, but it, it, it, the thing is I listen to the record every night is, you know, you ever, you ever go to sleep records?
Merlin: Well, I... No, that's not how you listen to music.
John: Not how I listen to music.
Merlin: Yeah, it was probably... So it was the lady here that had you listening to... Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: I went through a phase where my roommate was having sex with his girlfriend really loud, and I had to put on music to drown them out.
John: And in that case, my go-to-sleep record was Loveless by My Bloody Valentine.
John: I would just crank that.
Merlin: Oh, so you were fighting back.
John: Well, I wasn't fighting back until he climbed out of his loft, which was, you know, we lived in a huge warehouse and there were no walls.
John: So he was at the other end of this 60-foot wall.
Merlin: So his sound echoed around, your sound echoed around.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: It was terrible.
John: We were competing over...
John: hate the loud sex we were we were creating we were creating like a sound apocalypse 20 feet above the ground and 30 feet from either of us there was this place where the sound meshed but he would climb down you could hear him come down the ladder
John: and walk over and turn down my bloody valentine because it was it was interfering with like the lovemaking he was trying to do ironically enough when you sleep and really really loud and then he's back up the ladder and i'd wait until he was all the way up the ladder and back in bed and you could hear them start giggling to noodling and all that shit that they used to do and then i would get up and go down to the stereo
John: and crank it all the way back up again and then go back to my little bed and he come down the stairs and he would never come over come all the way around to my bed and be like fuck you man you know he would just turn the stereo down again and then i had some i had like a kip winger record or something some tape some cassette tape i found on the street that i would that that was my like nuclear option i would put that in at the
Merlin: the shags or maybe like the first velvet underground record i had um i had a next door neighbor who's you know pretty nice girl i think she had like a one of those little like uh four day crushes on you know you get on somebody in college she had liked me a little bit and she we both really liked um just like that guy reminds me of jim carrey i didn't look like jim carrey then i look like no you didn't you look like uh the guy from princess bride
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: Combined with Michael Palin, like early Dave Perner, and somebody with a restraining order.
Merlin: Dave Perner?
Merlin: You ever heard that cartoon song?
Merlin: No, they used to be really good.
Merlin: Everybody in Minnesota, eventually, they start out wanting to sound like Husker Du, and they end up fucking up sounding like the later replacements.
Merlin: Do you know that?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Like, look at, look at the, uh, look at the, uh, the heroin guy with the, with the, with the owner of Renona Ryder.
Merlin: Like he started out, they asked the, you know, you listen to the first few lemon heads records there.
Merlin: They, I know you're not familiar with his radio, but that, that clam dip and other delights.
John: That's a great record.
John: That's a great record.
Merlin: Well, yeah.
Merlin: And you know, the crossover one that Ed Stacey produced, this is literally the most boring podcast that has ever been done except for maybe two people.
Merlin: Uh, and it's, uh, musicians that don't listen to us, but, uh, the one, uh, hang time.
Merlin: I'll put up the video for Cartoon.
Merlin: There are three songs.
Merlin: I started a band in college to play three songs.
Merlin: To play September Girls by Big Star, Cartoon by Soul Asylum, and that's when I reached for my revolver by Mission of Burma.
Merlin: That's the three songs that made me want to start my first band.
John: Once you played those three songs, why did you guys keep playing together?
John: We were some good pop songs.
Merlin: No, but seriously, what we did to Couldn't I Just Tell You by Todd Rundgren, I should be in a Turkish fucking prison for the rest of my life.
John: For many reasons.
John: I remember sitting in a cafe.
Merlin: Scott Miller, too.
Merlin: Scott Miller.
John: I was sitting in a cafe in like 1991.
Merlin: So much follow up here, John.
John: And I was looking, I felt like I was looking good that day.
John: I'd comb my hair and I had on a sweater or something and I was sitting here drinking coffee.
John: And this was, I was still at the age where I was really trying to figure out, I knew that guys picked up girls.
John: I understood that this happened.
John: Right.
John: It wasn't like my experience of, of, of dating girls was that we had a class together and she sat next to me in the class.
John: And then pretty soon we, we were going out, but I knew that there were, right, right, right.
John: There's a process, but you knew there were people that like, I knew there were guys that walked up to girls in bars and cafes.
John: And then they were like 20 minutes later, they were ripping each other's clothes off back in one of their little shitty apartments.
John: And I was like, I, I would like to be one of those guys.
John: I would like to try this out.
John: And so I was sitting in the cafe, I was drinking coffee, and there's this girl sitting at a neighboring table.
John: And, oh, she's really pretty.
John: She's wearing glasses.
John: She has dark curly hair.
John: She's also maybe wearing a sweater.
Merlin: You have a fondness for Jewesses, isn't that right?
John: I like Jewish girls, and she was Jew-y enough that it... Did you call them Jewesses?
Merlin: Is that...
John: I don't use Jewess.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Hebrew mine.
Merlin: Hebrew mine.
John: Yeah, right.
John: So you walked up to her?
John: So I'm like, and this was very hard for me to do to like just cold call somebody.
Yeah.
John: cold calling the jewess i'd like i'd like to talk to you about your insurance or whatever and i you know and i kind of like lean over and say and she might have had headphones on and my opening gambit might have been i'm ashamed to say what are you listening to oh god you might as well said can i sniff your panties it was just this bad you know and she responds positively like oh hi you know i'm listening to soul isle
John: What year is this?
Merlin: What year is this?
John: Ninety-one.
John: Okay.
John: And I said, oh, Soul Asylum.
John: I know about Soul Asylum.
John: And started to talk to her about Soul Asylum.
John: And we, you know, and I kind of scooped my chair over and pretty soon I'm sitting at her table and we're talking.
John: And I am...
John: so excited that this girl is like receptive to my, to my, uh, you know, my entree that I'm just, I'm giving her everything, right?
John: I'm giving her the shotgun blast, like of everything I know.
John: And I think I start to perspire because I'm like, am I doing this right?
John: Is this working?
John: Are, do you, do you like me yet?
John: Should, should we go?
John: Are you married?
John: Would you like to be married?
John: And after about 20 minutes, she said, and this is something, this is something I still, I still am ashamed.
John: She, she starts putting her books in her bag and she leans in kind of close and with a kind of wry, like almost Ani DeFranco look on her face.
John: She says,
John: I think you're just trying too hard.
John: And she put her stuff in her bag and said, bye, and walks out.
Merlin: You were so close.
Merlin: You were on the wire, but you were almost to the other side.
John: I sat there absolutely certain, first of all, in this crowded cafe, there were 90 people in this place, espresso machines going, music playing.
John: I was certain that everyone in the room had heard it, had heard the line as if it had gone out over the public address system.
John: And
John: And, of course, realized, bathed in shame that I had been trying way too hard.
John: But at the same time, asking myself, I thought that trying was what you wanted or that's what people want, right?
John: That you're trying?
John: And I immediately, I think, stopped trying and didn't try again for 14 years.
Merlin: Hmm.
Merlin: What did you do in the interims?
John: smoked pot for the first four and then for the next ten I just sat there sneering sat in the corner sneering and checking the closet door every minute and a half to make sure the knob was still locked just a wash of occasionally changing guitar strings and appearing in court sneer people would come over and say hi is this seat taken and I'd go you know what fuck Soul Asylum you know what
John: Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
John: And then they'd be like... That's a soul asylum record.
John: What?
John: Fuck you and the horse you rode in on?
John: Somebody hit the horse they rode in on.
John: Pretty close to it, yeah.
John: It's a tragic tale, one of many.
Merlin: That's awful.
Merlin: I hate those stories.
Merlin: You know, I wish... That's why I'm such a porcupine.
Merlin: One of my December resolutions is to stop talking about what I've learned.
Merlin: Because nobody fucking cares.
Merlin: They don't.
Merlin: But, you know, it's – this is the problem, John.
Merlin: This is the false dilemma because on the one hand, every douchebag guy on the one hand thinks like me.
Merlin: You start out with a very earnest and I think nice thing, which is like if I tell girls that they're nice and I like them, they will like me.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Which in retrospect is incredibly creepy and a total turnoff.
Merlin: And then, of course, on the other end, you get the fucking, you know, seduction community dickheads.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Which is, you know, which is like, you know, I think as Tom Wolfe would say, it's date rape with a persuasive theory.
Merlin: You know, it's like a lot of big, big hats and nose rings.
John: You said the R word.
John: We've been taken to task on some internet comment pages for making light of rape.
Merlin: Oh, I'm sorry.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: Well, no, no, no.
Merlin: In this case, I'm not.
Merlin: I'm certainly not.
John: My position is that we have never made light of rape.
John: No.
John: I'm very upset about this.
John: Very upset about this because our podcast was posted on Metafilter.
John: Yes.
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: No, I saw the comment.
John: Some commenter was like, I can't listen to this, even though I love both these guys.
John: And I think it's really funny because they made a joke about rape.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: No, I think we made a joke about rape jokes, which is an entirely different matter.
Merlin: I was so mad.
Merlin: I was like, you don't understand.
John: We weren't making a joke about rape.
John: You didn't respond, did you, John?
John: No.
John: You gotta quit responding.
John: No, I know enough not to respond.
John: I just don't know enough not to read the thing.
John: See, this is your problem.
John: Then you steam.
Merlin: You know, I was urinating.
Merlin: I got some coffee, and unfortunately, I opened my refrigerator.
Merlin: I think I might have some meat going bad.
Merlin: We should talk about that.
Merlin: While I was urinating, it occurred to me that I would never... You're John Roderick, right?
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: I'm the... I can't think of a sidekick.
Merlin: But, you know, I'm the... Is it really that gay?
John: Yeah, I don't... No, not Robin.
Merlin: Kato.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: See, that's the problem.
Merlin: You're going all ping-ponging again.
Merlin: You can't do that.
Merlin: I was urinating, and it occurred to me that I would never...
Merlin: You understand I will do nothing to impinge on what you have to share with people and how you help people, but if I were going to state rules and I'm not and I hate talking about the thing I'm doing while I'm doing it, I would say no computers, no politics, no addressing the audience, and no discussing people's response.
Merlin: But now I've broken all of those, which is seriously ping pong in a lot of ways.
John: On this podcast, we have broken all the nascent rules that we did.
Merlin: Once you've done it, you want to do it again an hour later.
Merlin: Now, a serious rule that I've got... Now, this took me a long time to learn.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: I'm talking about how creepy I think.
Merlin: I'm not encouraging rape.
Merlin: I'm encouraging that we say what these fucking seduction community douchebags are.
John: Well, the thing about seduction is that it is... John, it's a community.
Merlin: It's not seduction.
Merlin: It's a community.
Merlin: It's more about the forum than the seduction.
Merlin: It's more about the leveling up.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Anyway, let's not get into that.
Merlin: But here's my rule.
Merlin: Um, my rule, I have to urine in again.
Merlin: One of my rules is this, be careful where you met that person.
Merlin: This is going through my head the entire time.
Merlin: I was thinking about this before or after Nevermind that you approached the Jewish.
John: This was during Nevermind.
Merlin: This is like fall.
John: It was simultaneous.
John: Sweater weather?
John: Was it sweater weather?
John: It was sweater weather.
John: So we're talking about Nevermind and 10 by Pearl Jam have both been released.
John: Bandwagon-esque.
John: They have not swept the nation yet.
Merlin: That last... It was a pregnant moment.
Merlin: After that summer, I didn't know where to turn.
Merlin: There were so many records I loved.
Merlin: Oh my God, that was an amazing time.
Merlin: There was a golden age of indie rock.
Merlin: Maybe not for the kind of bullshit you listen to, but for me, I think of it as this Matador merge era, but there was this period from about... I want to say... Pavement was your...
Merlin: Very heavy.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, but for me, GBV, too.
Merlin: But also, like, God, this is so fucking boring.
John: It's really boring.
John: When did we start talking?
John: Nobody cares about music, John.
John: Two guys in a record store.
Merlin: And there aren't even record stores anymore.
Merlin: People want to talk about Facebook and vampire shows.
Merlin: Here's my rule.
Merlin: You like Guided by Voices.
Merlin: We could have just said that at the top.
Merlin: I don't know why this is such a problem for you to like Sloan and Guided by Voices.
Merlin: I know you're not a fan.
Merlin: Did you watch the video?
Merlin: Did you watch the video?
Merlin: I watched the video.
Merlin: What'd you think?
Merlin: It's fine.
Merlin: What'd you think of his expression?
Merlin: It's fine.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: A little grass shack.
Merlin: I'm going to find out the provenance of that.
Merlin: Jane Whedon, I give up.
Merlin: Amy Mann.
Merlin: I see.
Merlin: Amy Mann, I'm going to keep a distance.
Merlin: I know she'll never like me.
John: I was really hoping that Jane Whedon and I would strike up a kind of friendship.
Merlin: See, that for me, that's a level two.
Merlin: I mean, to me, that would be hard Frenching and I'd stop it there because that's disgusting, John.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: I don't want to encourage any more ping pong talk.
Merlin: Here's the rule.
Merlin: The rule is be careful where you met somebody.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Okay.
John: Well, now explain that because I like the sound of it.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Well, there's a, there's, I think there's, there's once again, you know, me, uh, you know, there's two kinds of people.
Merlin: And so there's, there's, there's two, two parts to this, right?
John: You meet somebody, two parts.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: And you know, the story, you know, the story of how I met my lady, right?
Merlin: Do you know the story?
John: You were in line at a pharmacy getting your prescription filled.
Merlin: Getting some fashion contact lens holders.
John: Right.
Merlin: And she was there.
Merlin: I wrote about this.
Merlin: I'll link to this.
Merlin: For our anniversary, I wrote about this.
Merlin: But we were at a Thinkin' Filler show.
John: Oh, sure.
John: I remember this whole story.
John: Yes, you were at a rock show.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And we were introduced by a mutual friend who gaslighted Gaslit.
Merlin: Who gaslit both of us, saying to my wife, oh, you've got to meet this guy.
Merlin: He really wants to meet you.
Merlin: He's really into you.
Merlin: Saying to me, you've got to meet my friend.
Merlin: She's really interested in meeting you.
John: Brilliant.
John: My dad used to do this to me all the time.
John: With girls?
John: No, your cousin really wants to play on your new record.
John: I would say, oh, all right.
Merlin: And then I'd call her up and be like, so... I've never asked, John, because I know that I'm no Scott McCoy, but I'm just saying, if you ever want me to do nothing in a studio, I would love to be there.
Merlin: Isn't that awkward, though?
John: Bring up the track.
John: Let's put some more Merlin in there.
John: Look at me.
John: I'm like Jim Carrey.
John: Just wiping your nose.
Merlin: I have allergies right now really bad.
Merlin: I tried taking some herbs for it.
Merlin: It made me nauseated.
Merlin: Well, here's one of the things about California.
Merlin: Can we come back to my, when you're done?
Merlin: I want to talk about my rule.
Merlin: I want to talk about mandolins.
Merlin: No, no, let's go to the rule.
Merlin: Here's what I got.
Merlin: Okay, listen, we're running along here.
Merlin: I've got mandolins.
Merlin: I've got my rule.
Merlin: I've got your candles, Planet Telex, and Scott Miller.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Okay, here's my rule.
Merlin: You got to be careful where you met them, okay?
John: You got to be careful where you met someone.
Merlin: My wife, this should never have worked out.
Merlin: I'm sorry about my allergies.
Merlin: I'm not actually coked up.
John: How is that possible that you meet somebody that you're with for the rest of your life?
Merlin: This is the exception that proves the rule, whatever the fuck that means.
Merlin: I still don't understand what that means.
Merlin: We're in a bar.
Merlin: We've both been drinking.
Merlin: At the time, her favorite band, Thinky Fellers.
Merlin: And we made out.
Merlin: We grabbed each other.
Merlin: At the bar?
Merlin: Started making out in a bar, which I've done.
Merlin: At the show?
Merlin: Yes, which I did once ever.
Merlin: Wow.
Merlin: She grabbed my butt.
Merlin: We went home.
Merlin: Three weeks later, she moved in.
Merlin: Now we got a kid or whatever.
Merlin: So this totally breaks the rule in a lot of ways.
Merlin: It was an amazing night.
Merlin: I'm not as big a Thinkyfellers fan.
Merlin: I like the turtle song, but I'm not as into it as she is.
Merlin: The peak night.
Merlin: My friend, the tortoise.
John: See, now if that had been a Posey show, it wouldn't have worked out.
Merlin: Because Constringfeller would have taken her back to his coffin.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Can we talk some night about that night we met?
Merlin: Because you remember, Ken insisted on driving in the car with my wife while I drove with you in the van.
John: Absolutely.
John: And I was thinking the whole time, I hope he doesn't put spiders in her.
Merlin: I'm fine to stop right there.