Ep. 76: "The Cherry of Somebody's Appeal"
Merlin: Hello.
Merlin: Hey, John.
Merlin: Hi, Merlin.
Merlin: How's it going?
John: Oh, it's so late.
John: It's late and you are a busy guy.
Merlin: No, not really.
Merlin: You're busy.
Merlin: You've been traveling.
John: I have to say, though, the work that you're doing is God's work.
John: Thank you, John.
John: Thank you.
John: You know, we talk a lot about civics on this program.
John: Yes.
John: You are putting your money where your mouth is.
Merlin: Well, my mouth is...
Merlin: In a chair for nine hours a day.
Merlin: This is boring.
Merlin: No one cares.
John: Oh, that's not true.
John: You are doing jury duty, which is every American's duty.
John: That's why they call it duty, jury duty instead of jury option.
John: It's not called jury option.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: It's not jury doobie.
Merlin: It's not jury doobie.
John: It's not jury doobie.
John: No.
John: No.
John: So you're in one of those wood chairs.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: No, no, no, no.
Merlin: It's come a long way.
John: And then Matlock comes over.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Well, you know, if you had not texted me like literally 15 minutes ago, I was going to go home and watch 12 Angry Men.
Merlin: But instead I was watching The Great Escape because I thought I'd give myself a little break.
John: That's a nice one.
John: When you're sitting there in the jury box, you can imagine yourself jumping your stolen Nazi motorcycle over a barbed wire fence.
Merlin: No spoilers, no spoilers.
John: Oh, sorry, sorry.
John: You've never seen it?
John: No, I haven't.
Merlin: Oh, wow.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: It immediately struck me as seeming a lot like that class of movies that we enjoy.
John: Yes.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: It seemed a little bit like Dirty Dozen, a little bit like Force 10 from Navarone.
John: A little bit of a later longest day.
Merlin: Should I watch that?
Merlin: What is that?
John: Have you not seen The Longest Day?
Merlin: No.
John: What is that?
John: Oh, The Longest Day.
John: Oh, great.
John: Here I go.
John: The Longest Day.
John: It's a movie.
John: Let me just say that again.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
John: Let me write that down.
John: The Longest Day.
John: It's a movie about D-Day.
Merlin: Okay.
John: And it's the original massive Hollywood picture starring every single...
John: actor like it's got it's got david niven it's got you love david niven is david niven your canonical guy with a beret who blows things up he is and you know it's the british guy with the bomb that you kind of want to be yeah the briefcase full of the briefcase full of bombs from force 10 from no he wasn't on force 10 was he
John: I'm not even going to go into David Niven's.
Merlin: You know, John, I'm not a Joseph Campbell archivist, but I'm pretty sure the this I know we're not going to talk about comics, but this is a character.
Merlin: The guy with the beret from England briefcase full of bombs.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: And he at first he seems a little bit poncy, but but but he knows where to put the bomb.
John: He does.
John: He does.
John: He knows how to blow up.
John: He knows how to blow up the mountain, but in such a way that there's plenty of time to escape.
Merlin: Are they coming via the beach or are they coming the other way?
John: Like where are they coming from?
John: It's a story.
John: They do come via the beach on D-Day, on Day Day.
John: as we say in the parlance.
John: D for Day.
John: But it's the whole story of D-Day.
John: It's like... When Saving Private Ryan came out, this may shock and surprise you, but when Saving Private Ryan came out, I had no interest in seeing it.
John: Because I had seen The Longest Day, and it was definitive.
John: You felt like it was a high bar.
John: It was... The Longest Day is made...
John: is made while the sand of D-Day beaches was still on the shoulders of half of the actors in the film.
John: You know, like there are a lot of actual World War II veterans in the movie.
John: And so Steven Spielberg with his slow motion bullets and stuff, I was just like, I don't need it.
John: I don't need to see it.
John: And it was only when I was introduced to...
John: Band of Brothers on one of my earliest JetBlue flights.
John: So the first time I took JetBlue, right after they had opened as a company, you know, back when having a TV on an airplane seemed like... It was literally unique.
Merlin: It was amazing.
Merlin: You could watch A&E on a plane inside of a seat.
John: Yeah, and I sat down in my leather seat and looked at this little postage stamp-sized TV and I said...
John: Are you kidding?
John: It's like flying has become fun again.
John: And I sat and I watched probably, I don't know how many episodes of Band of Brothers, probably four at least episodes of Band of Brothers back to back.
John: And that's an amazing television show.
John: And then it caused me to say, it piqued my curiosity about Saving Private Ryan enough that I went to watch it and I was like, all right.
John: But the longest day, that's where everybody needs to start.
Merlin: I'm breaking my rule and looking here.
Merlin: And it's alphabetical, so forgive me.
Merlin: You got Eddie Albert.
Merlin: Eddie Albert's there.
Merlin: You got Paul Anka.
Merlin: Yes, sir.
Merlin: Is that correct?
Merlin: Yes, they're all, you know, they're all in the prime of their life.
Merlin: Are you sure this isn't a prank or a canary trap?
Merlin: You got Richard Burton, Red Buttons, what?
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: Sean Connery, Fabian.
Fabian.
Merlin: Fabian, which I would put in the pile with Paul Anka.
Merlin: You got Henry Fonda, what?
John: Right.
Merlin: And this is a year before The Great Escape.
Merlin: This came out in, if memory serves, October 4th of 1962.
Merlin: Am I remembering that right?
John: Yeah, October 4th, I think.
Merlin: 110, 111, whatever it takes.
Merlin: Sure, and I think it's down approximately 2% in popularity this week.
John: It's a hell of a movie.
John: It's probably three hours long.
John: Ah, like a Torah, Torah, Torah.
John: Every one of those guys has their star turn.
John: Everybody gets their character development.
John: Everybody has their moment.
Merlin: When you finally watched the Ryan, I'm guessing, I'm just speculating, that you must have been kind of into the on-the-beach scene, right?
Merlin: That's pretty great, right?
John: Yeah, the war stuff...
John: is awesome.
John: But, you know, I don't care how many makeup lines you draw on Tom Hanks with the eyeliner pencil.
Oh, boy.
John: I still see him in Bosom Buddies.
John: Yeah.
John: With Peter Scolari.
John: Every time he comes on the screen, I see him with the falsies on trying to sneak up into his all-girl apartment building.
John: It's a good show.
John: It was a great show.
John: And then I feel like his most sophisticated role was in Bachelor Party.
John: And that's where Tom Hanks' character development stops for me.
John: You think that's the Hanks apotheosis?
John: He's standing there, and it's two steps down to the living room of his big hotel room, and his friends are throwing him a...
John: Throwing him a big bachelor party where he's going to have sex with a lot of hookers and girls, and he just can't because he loves his fiancee too much.
Merlin: That's complicated.
John: Who's his fiancee?
Merlin: I don't remember.
Merlin: I'm trying to remember who was in that.
Merlin: I mean, that's one of those movies that has not aged super well.
Merlin: I mean, it's one of those movies like, like what?
Merlin: It's like A Few Good Men.
Merlin: It's canonical in a lot of ways.
Merlin: Like you watch it and you go, wow.
Merlin: Like when I love this when it came out and and but it really feels like kind of of a ton.
John: Well, let me let me just answer my own question.
Merlin: Yes.
John: Objection asked and answered.
John: Tom Hanks' love interest and fiancé in Bachelor Party.
Merlin: Is it Tawny Katane?
John: It's Tawny Katane.
John: Oh, God.
John: Tawny Katane, David Covered Fails' Girlfriend.
John: Yes.
John: And now, I think, pretty...
John: pretty like resolutely over onto the other side of like kooky wah-wah land right isn't isn't she some kind of like conservative blogger or is she like a spanker or a vaccine person that that kind of thing or maybe like a like
Merlin: Like, what is she using her bully pulpit for?
John: Maybe it was something else, like she was arrested for waving a pistol around, or she was wearing some of those sweatpants that had Hollister written on the back, and...
John: and like date raped a girl i don't remember what it was but whatever happened to tawny katane it wasn't pretty and that's and that is a tragedy to me because i i found her very attractive in the 80s oh god yes
Merlin: What was the one that was the keyboard player from Journey's Girlfriend?
Merlin: Who was that?
Merlin: Jonathan Cain had a hot girlfriend, too.
John: I don't remember.
Merlin: Oh, come on.
Merlin: Stay with me.
John: I didn't go all the way into Journey's Girlfriends.
Merlin: Well, you got the greatest hits, though, right?
John: I could not handle Steve Perry.
John: I just couldn't handle it.
John: There wasn't anything about Steve Perry I could handle.
Merlin: Yeah, you know what, Steve?
Merlin: What he needs is context.
Merlin: He makes a lot of sense in context.
John: Yeah, but I never had the context.
John: I always was like, he's ambiguously gendered.
John: He's ambiguously... He's ambiguously talented is what he is.
John: He's ambiguously talented.
John: I'm not sure whether he's Asian South Pacific Islander.
John: I know his replacement is.
John: I'm not sure about Steve Perry.
Merlin: You're saying he's been replaced by a Samoan?
John: I'm saying the new singer in Journey is from the Philippines.
Merlin: Huh.
Merlin: You knew that.
Merlin: No, I didn't.
Merlin: But my mind, as you know, I am literally exhausted from jury duty.
Merlin: And I'm suddenly imagining these different super groups.
Merlin: And a woman involved the replacement singers from bands.
Merlin: So you've got the Samoa Steve Perry.
Merlin: You've got the guy who's not Rob Halford.
John: Right.
John: You've got Gary Cheroni.
John: Oh, come on.
John: That guy.
John: From Van Halen 3.
John: He could ruin a wet dream.
John: You're saying it's all singers?
John: It's all replacement singers?
Merlin: I think the girlfriend of anybody in a famous band should be named Tawny.
Merlin: I mean, just for archival reasons.
John: There was a girl in my high school named Tawny.
Merlin: Was that her nickname or was that her given name?
John: It was her real name.
John: And I always felt like she was an attractive girl.
John: Yes.
John: I was thinking the other day, I remember I was at a high school party.
John: Right at that transition when we were, I guess it's a transition that you make at the beginning of your senior year where you start to have parties in motels.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Instead of at people's houses where you're like, okay, you know, like we're old enough now we can go get a hotel and we're going to have a party there.
John: And it was at one of these motel parties in Anchorage.
John: And there, and it was, it was the socials, the socials were having a party.
John: Right.
John: And somehow at that point, by the time you're a senior, like you kind of like, I felt very comfortable crashing social parties, even though they didn't want me there.
Right.
John: And I showed up in my trench coat with the whiteout skull and crossbones on the back with my friend Kel.
John: And we were looking for trouble.
John: And it's all the girls with the sprayed up bangs and everything.
John: And this girl, very drunk, went into the bathroom, went potty.
John: She went number two.
John: Okay.
John: and she came out and had failed to flush the toilet oh no the poor thing and so the next guy in to the room whatever social guy was in there next comes out and he's like oh my god you guys have got to see this
John: And this girl's very drunk.
John: She stumbles off with her pink high heels wavering on the carpet.
John: But everybody else at the party then one by one files into the bathroom to see that this girl has made an enormous dookie.
John: So big.
John: Like wide?
John: Like wide and long.
John: It is a toilet filling dookie.
John: and it's and it's what's amazing about it in addition to just the massiveness of it is that it is one piece dookie so she's she's eaten right it is a it is like a boa constrictor oh no in the toilet and every single you know in any other place that would be seen as extremely healthy
John: Right.
John: If I had made a Dukie, I still envy that Dukie.
John: I think about it all the time.
John: I'm like, ah, God, if I could just.
Merlin: That is an aspirational Dukie.
Merlin: But her whole life was changed by one misstep.
Merlin: She did not hit the flusher.
John: Right.
John: Did you file in?
John: Did you file in?
John: Of course I saw the Dookie.
John: Sure.
John: And these are her friends.
John: You know, this isn't a case where some social girl came to a to like a one of our parties and we were raking her over the coals like these were her people.
John: These were her pals.
John: And I remember her being kind of a pretty girl who was aspiring to jump into a higher social class in high school or whatever.
John: She was just under the line for being one of the top girls as she saw it.
John: And this plummeted her status because...
John: Because you could see she'd be walking down the hall and there'd be some guy with a mullet walking behind her, holding his fingers 18 inches apart over her head.
John: And it was just like, think about all the times that that happened in high school.
John: I remember a guy, a really good friend of mine.
John: in eighth grade the story went around that he had a slumber party where a bunch of dudes a bunch of the cool kids came over to his house and he was kind of one of the one of the kids on the fringe of the cool kid group and the next day at school it was contested that he that somebody woke up in the middle of the night and he was jacking it
John: And all the kids, before First Period was out, the entire school knew that this guy was jacking it at a slumber party with all of his friends.
John: And I found it at the time, and I find it now, impossible to believe that he was legitimately jacking it.
John: But even if he were, he had to move.
John: He had to move and change his name.
John: Yeah.
John: And he did.
John: He moved and changed his name.
John: I know I'm on Facebook.
John: He still goes by a different name.
John: Changed his name forever.
John: Anyway, this girl with the dookie, I was thinking about it the other day.
John: This was before people had cameras on their phones.
John: Imagine now.
John: It'd be on the top of I can eat cheeseburgers.
Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah.
Merlin: I – oh, gosh.
John: I can have a meme generator.
Merlin: You know, it's one thing if you fart.
Merlin: It's another thing if you misspeak or your fly is down.
Merlin: But, you know, for a guy –
Merlin: I mean, first of all, I have to say I can't believe you can't imagine somebody jacking it at an overnight because, you know, well, I'm not going to say anything.
Merlin: I'm not going to say anything, but I mean.
John: Are you saying that circle jerking was actually a thing?
Merlin: No!
Merlin: I'm not saying that at all.
Merlin: I'm saying in the privacy of your own toilet moment, if you needed to run a batch, that might be something you would do as a dude.
Merlin: Now, if you get caught, that's kind of off-limits.
Merlin: But for a lady...
Merlin: I just – I can't imagine anything worse.
Merlin: If she were literally blowing the principal in the bathroom, it would be nowhere near as bad as forgetting to flush a giant and enviable dookie.
John: And the biggest poo that anybody had ever seen.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: But like so many things involving envy and status, right?
Merlin: Don't you think it's like kind of a complicated combination of like –
Merlin: I mean, like anything, you would go like, oh, it's like discovering that somebody makes two or three more zeros than you thought they made every year.
Merlin: Like you would go like, ooh, that person's rich.
Merlin: And in this case, she has made a literally perfect dookie at a party.
Merlin: And let me ask you, John Roderick, how often have you made a perfect dookie at a party?
Merlin: I've pooped at a party.
Merlin: I pooped at a party in LA one time, and it was super complicated.
Merlin: Complicated.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Was it a multi-stage job?
Merlin: I'll come back to that if you want.
Merlin: I will literally circle back to that.
John: But for a lady at our time, like... No, you don't want to show that you have any bodily functions of any kind.
Merlin: If she had left bloody panties, like literally on the keg, it would be not as bad as an enviable dookie.
John: Yeah.
John: Now, in contrast...
John: Like early on in seventh grade in my biology class, we were all sitting working on a problem at those big, long black tables that if you put your finger on it for a long time, it makes a little sweat spot.
John: You know, those black tables you use in biology.
John: Yeah, we got one of those.
John: And I'm sitting there working on a problem.
Merlin: It's like where you got a lab partner.
Merlin: It's like too wide.
John: We're all sitting there.
John: The class is deathly quiet.
John: You can hear a pin drop.
John: And I feel that I have to make a fart.
John: And so I kind of, you know, I lift up one side of my bottom.
Merlin: You provide an affordance.
John: That's right.
John: I afford an exit area.
Merlin: A simple means of aggress.
John: That's right.
John: And I keep working on my project.
John: My lab partner is there.
John: And I proceed to, for whatever reason, make the loudest fart in history.
LAUGHTER
John: Was it flappy?
John: It was loud and long and perfect.
John: Now I recognize it as the perfect fart.
John: Because all this, I mean, everything was set up.
John: Biology class, seventh grade.
John: It's perfect silence.
John: Hard wood chair.
John: I'm in the front row of the class.
Merlin: There's nowhere to hide.
John: And I make a perfect 30 second long super fart.
John: And it was a situation where the reaction was so instantaneous and also so perfect.
John: Everybody, like, jumped back as if...
John: As if a cobra had sprung out of a hat.
John: Chairs are falling back.
John: Kids are falling over each other to escape.
John: And it's all happening instantaneously.
John: The sound wave hasn't even made it to the wall.
John: And kids are scrambling to get away from the blast zone.
John: Girls are screaming.
John: Boys are yelling.
John: And I remember sitting there, and there was no mortification because it was not possible.
John: Like, I couldn't be mortified in that moment because it was so far over...
John: It was so far past... There was no question that you had dealt it.
John: Because the kids on either side of me flew away from me.
John: Because they were at ground zero.
John: Clamoring over tables to get away.
John: And I just sat there, continued writing, made no gesture of any kind, and just, like, owned it.
John: I had the presence in seventh grade...
John: to own it with no, I was not trying to pretend that I hadn't, like I had a superior smirk on my face and just kept writing on my piece of paper.
John: And it was then, then it was up to them.
John: Right.
Merlin: So it wasn't precisely like nothing happened, but it was like, Oh, that happened, but I'm just going to keep moving.
John: Oh, it happened.
John: But, and I mean, the teacher is sitting at her desk and I think maybe even she stood up and took a step back.
John: but then I continued to write.
John: So now the burden, the burden of proof, the onus is on everyone else in the room.
John: Like, what are you going to do now?
John: Right.
John: Like you're all crowding against the walls.
John: What are you going to do next?
John: Yeah.
John: Like eventually you have to take your seats again.
John: And I'm still just going to be sitting here writing, writing my assignment with the, with the self-satisfied smile and,
John: And eventually they did.
John: Eventually they all like crept back cursing me and, and yeah, but it, but it, like it was bulletproof by the next day.
John: It was, it was like the stuff of myth.
Yeah.
John: The stuff of myth and also, like, it was a feather in my cap, right?
John: I mean, that's what you have to do.
Merlin: Because, like, if you had, like, receded and, like, tried to, you know, play it off legit and go, like, oh, no.
John: Or anything.
Merlin: Yeah, like, no plausible deniability.
Merlin: You dealt it.
Merlin: You owned it.
John: If my face had even gotten red, I would have been, it would have been, like, I might as well have cut off my hands.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: John, that is career defining.
John: It was.
John: It was a moment of self-knowledge where I was like, that's right.
John: That's right.
John: It's kind of sexy, almost.
John: That was the best part any of you will ever hear or see.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And you were there the whole time.
John: But for a lady... I mean, I have to feel like if this girl had stood in the door of the bathroom and sold tickets for a dollar...
John: it would have been better for her than to just kind of stumble out of the bathroom and drunkenly stumble away.
Merlin: Oh, no question.
Merlin: There's a thousand ways that could have been better for her.
Merlin: Like if she had, if she had gone like, Hey guys, and then chat on a copy of escape by journey, that would have been like a thousand times more hot.
Merlin: That would have been hotter than like necking with the second cutest girl.
Merlin: But the fact that she spaced the flushing is,
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: That's miserable.
Merlin: I'm not going to live that off.
Merlin: That's just.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: So, yeah, it just goes to show.
John: I'm not sure what it goes to show.
John: Flush.
Merlin: You know what they say, you know, in music, you know, if you hit a clam.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Do it three times and it's a part.
Merlin: I think that was the Lonely Smoke that said that.
John: Yeah.
John: Once it's a clam, hit it three times, it's a bit.
Merlin: But, you know, like, you know, I learned this too late.
Merlin: But they would say that, you know, if you hit a clam, don't make a face.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: Like, if you hit, like, a, you know, a half step off on an important part that everybody can hear, like, don't make a face.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Because a lot of people will not even notice that.
John: Yeah, well, and there's an interesting adjunct to that story.
John: My good friend Dave Bazan, who is now a friend of yours also, David Bazan, tells a story when he was a young man playing the drums in like, and he was a drummer who backed up church music at his, because his father was a music pastor.
Right.
John: and so dave started out his career as a drummer teenage drummer behind all these people singing and playing in church and he said he was playing drums behind some some singer in in a church band who was really cheesy singer and really pretty bad
John: And after the performance, he walks off stage and his mom grabs him by the shirt.
John: And she says, you were behind the drums making faces at that singer.
John: When the singer missed a note, you would make a grimace.
John: And you can never, ever, ever do that.
John: And Dave was like, oh, I was just like, you know, it was so awful that I couldn't.
John: She was like, you can never, ever, when you're on stage, make a face when someone misses the note.
John: Like, that your job, if you have any job, it is to stand up there and present not only your own flubs as...
John: you know, as professionally as you can, but like you are representing that singer, you are representing yourself and everything while you're up there.
Merlin: You're, you're there to support them.
Merlin: It's kind of the, uh, Paul Schaefer axiom where like you can make a face to like support them and go, wow, that was really rocking.
John: But no, no ugly face, no, no shit face.
Merlin: Because it becomes like a footnote, like a really, really loud vision.
Merlin: Yeah, exactly.
John: Poor Dave.
John: One of my saddest moments.
Merlin: But Dave also, he has a very emotional face.
Merlin: I mean, I think Dave, it's, you know, I'm not super tight with him, but I enjoy his stuff a lot.
Merlin: And when I watch him perform, I mean, it seems like he gets very involved in the music.
John: He's into it.
Merlin: But he's not making like guitar face.
Merlin: He's not making like, look at me.
Merlin: I'm like hitting a, you know, I'm bending a five, you know, like he's, he's like involved in the music.
Merlin: And it seems like I bet it was kind of involuntary.
Merlin: He wasn't, he wasn't making, in other words, he was not making a deliberate comment on the flatness, sharpness, or badness of the singer.
Merlin: He was just like...
John: playing the song right i mean it wasn't like he was trying to undermine no no i mean this is why i can't go to karaoke like sitting in a karaoke performance i feel like i feel like lemmy winks is up my butt i am so uncomfortable
John: with when people sing flat, that, that it's reflexive.
John: Like my shoulders.
Merlin: I'm like that with improv.
Merlin: If I go to improv and somebody goes, okay, I'm going to need something involving a toilet and a pizza delivery.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Got that.
Merlin: And when, and when it becomes uncomfortable, I rock, even if I'm not medicated, I rock back and forth and have this like really like on the wall.
Merlin: Well, now, now it's worse.
Merlin: Now, at least then I would seem crazy, but I rock back and forth with a fake smile on my face because I'm feeling every scintilla of like a rigor mortis smile.
Merlin: You know what's bad is – so with the karaoke or with performing, you feel bad for that person because they may not be fully aware.
Merlin: Yeah, but that's the thing.
Merlin: They're having a great time.
John: Right.
John: You're feeling sympathy for them and they require no sympathy.
John: So I stay out of that stuff.
Merlin: I've been admonished by the judge in my case, not to discuss what's going on in the case.
Merlin: But I will tell you that on a couple, three occasions today, I had to pass by the family court area or the legal assistance area.
Merlin: And there was an unbehomed woman.
Merlin: Sitting there with a lot of bags.
Merlin: And she was there to get some extra help with her meds.
Merlin: And she was singing 99 Red Balloons by Nena.
John: In German or English?
Merlin: English.
John: Not the canonical version, but okay.
Merlin: So she, she did not know all the words and she was even like, I'm a sharp singer.
Merlin: She was a super flat singer.
Merlin: And if I could say John Roderick, she didn't know all the words and she kept singing it over and over.
Merlin: A lot of words in that song.
Merlin: My only thought, I've been admonished about this.
Merlin: I shared this with some other jury members that, you know, if you're going to be a crazy homeless lady singing Nana, you
Merlin: over and literally over like at least know the words it's okay if you're a little flat and know the words but right i mean we'll give you a pass so was she was she improvving some words based on what she was seeing in the court or was she was getting just getting just enough wrong that like a casual observer would go oh you kind of don't know the words to that song was she just doing the captain kirk verse over and over
Merlin: No, I mean I can't really – I don't want to impersonate her because of admonishments.
John: Are you telling me that the judge in this case has singled you out for personal admonishment?
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: I couldn't say.
Merlin: It's like the NSA or it's like one of those – it's like one of those things you get where like you can't say if you've received the letter where you can't say what you can't say.
John: Yes, I understand.
Merlin: No, I don't want to.
John: You know what?
John: From the bench, he has pointed his gavel.
John: He or she has pointed his or her gavel at you.
John: Thank you.
John: And said you.
John: You.
Merlin: Let me just explain juror number eight or otherwise.
Uh-huh.
John: They're going to love you in the jury room during deliberations.
Merlin: Oh, God.
Merlin: I'm so going to be like the cherry of somebody's appeal.
Merlin: I can feel it already.
John: But walking by, she was like, Johanna, I have a good authority that one of the jurors I have here the transcript of a podcast.
Ooh.
Merlin: But, you know, here's the thing.
Merlin: So here's the thing.
Merlin: Pick a song.
Merlin: If it's Louie Louie, if it's Faithfully, whatever it is, if you're going to sing it over and over, get it right.
John: Nobody knows the lyrics to Louie Louie.
John: You just picked the classic example of a song that no one can sing properly.
Merlin: Yeah, but if you put your heart in it and do the intonation and try not to be too flat, I don't know.
John: That song, 99 Luftballons,
John: I mean, that's a long and involved story.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: I'm not surprised she doesn't know all the words.
John: I'm just surprised at her subject.
Merlin: I don't think it's going to help her get Prozac, though.
John: Did she look a little bit like...
Merlin: John, I literally cannot get into this.
Merlin: She was there with another guy who had binoculars and he was wearing lots of roots rock reggae kind of colors.
Merlin: He had lots of red, gold, and green.
John: Did he have that black Bart Simpson shirt on that said it's a black thing you wouldn't understand?
John: And wearing a giant Africa Mumbata shirt?
Merlin: necklace no no you mean like a de la soul necklace no nothing like that no god john i haven't slept um you know what i'm gonna say is that that that there is a uh if i could say i'm not a miller scholar as you know but there's a crucible that happens in high school it starts in junior high it goes into high school did you just conflate the words crucial and crucible crucible
John: Did I say that wrong?
Merlin: How's it pronounced?
Merlin: Winona Ryder?
Merlin: How do you say that?
Merlin: Let me start over.
Merlin: John.
Merlin: It's late.
Merlin: It's late.
Merlin: Is it Arthur Miller or Henry Miller?
Merlin: I'm surrounded by empty pill bottles.
Merlin: Oh, John, you know what?
Merlin: High school is a crucible.
Merlin: Literally don't get me started on empty pill bottles right now.
John: That's why they're going to appeal that case.
John: They're going to go to the juror's room and see the wastebasket is filled with empty tilt.
Merlin: So, Counselor, I'm going to go ahead and file a 325 objection.
Merlin: Juror No.
Merlin: 8 has not been able to visit his psychiatrist to refill his Schedule I prescription.
Merlin: And he's clearly reading Spider-Man comics.
John: So this woman, she's there and she's waiting.
John: She looks like Margot Kidder, doesn't she?
John: I'm picturing late stage Margot Kidder.
John: Sure.
John: Yeah.
John: No, no.
John: Did I ever tell you I ran into Margot Kidder in a sushi restaurant?
John: In your house?
Merlin: No, she was getting sushi.
Merlin: She was there eating chili with the dismemberment plan in your house.
Merlin: Chili's complicated.
Merlin: So was she in Seattle?
John: Margot Kidder.
John: No, it was in New York City.
John: She was eating sushi.
Merlin: Oh, really?
Merlin: Okay.
John: Yeah, in a little place.
Merlin: Can you just give me a general sense of what... Are we talking about post-2000?
John: I think in about 2000.
Yeah.
Merlin: Okay, so as they say in Northern Ireland, it was during the problems.
John: It was during the problem era, and she had some leaves in her hair.
John: She had, I think she was missing a tooth or two.
John: Oh, no, John, you know how hard that is.
Merlin: It was pretty bad.
Merlin: John, people judge you when you're missing a tooth.
John: Yep, she has come all the way back, I think.
Merlin: Good for you, Margo.
John: Yep.
John: I bet she knows all the lyrics.
Merlin: I'm listening.
Merlin: Keep going.
Merlin: I want to hear more.
Merlin: Well, I got a lot to say about Robert Downey when we come back to that.
John: I feel like I feel like he's got to be missing some teeth.
Merlin: I feel like – why do I say that?
Merlin: Just in terms of – I understand if you have an objection regarding relevance or foundation.
Merlin: I'm literally exhausted.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
John: Did you know Margot Kidder dated Pierre Trudeau?
Merlin: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.
Merlin: Margot Kidder.
Merlin: That was a hearing aid joke.
Merlin: I did not know that.
Merlin: I did not.
Merlin: My bell's not here.
John: Let me get it for you.
Merlin: Thank you.
Merlin: John, hang on.
Merlin: Margot Kidder.
Merlin: You're telling me literally Margot Kidder, who seems like she should have been in some Cassavetes films, but wasn't.
Merlin: Like she's, she's got that kind of, uh, Cassavetes feel, but we mainly know her from, uh, Superman.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: And kind of seeming like the cute girl in, uh, Raiders of the Lost Ark, but not really.
John: Oh, is that not, that's somebody else.
Merlin: Karen Allen.
John: That's Karen Allen.
John: Oh yes.
John: She's cute in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: It's, it's conflation.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Anyway.
Merlin: So, so, uh, anyway.
John: Yeah.
John: Oh, she dated, uh, she dated the prime minister of Canada.
Merlin: Oh, I'm thinking of the filmmaker.
Merlin: Oh, Trudeau, the filmmaker?
Merlin: Is that who I'm thinking of?
Merlin: Who's the guy with the hearing aid in Close Encounters?
Merlin: The French filmmaker.
Merlin: Pierre Trudeau, right?
Merlin: Pierre Trudeau.
Merlin: Now, which one's Margot Hemingway?
John: Margot Hemingway?
John: Wasn't she in The Shining?
Merlin: She was in Lipstick.
Merlin: She was in Lipstick, I think.
Merlin: So anyway... Oh, but that's right.
John: Margot Hemingway was Woody Allen's stand-in for Sun Yi.
Merlin: In Manhattan?
John: In...
John: Manhattan.
Merlin: I'm going to tell you two things.
Merlin: Number one, lipstick, lipstick used to be on pay cable a lot.
Merlin: And I saw it a lot.
Merlin: And here's the other thing.
Merlin: What I'm realizing is that Allah, your, uh, epochal fart and the dookie of the famous girl.
Merlin: Like I, I, I spend so little of my time, so little of my life worrying about how it would look in court.
Um,
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Like there's some, so little of my life where I'm like processing, like, how would I even be, I couldn't explain what I did for a living to these people.
Merlin: The other jury members are still asking me like what I quote unquote unquote do.
Merlin: And I, you know, I slough it off and go, you know, like I always say, I have two answers to what I do.
Merlin: Well, if it's obvious, you don't care.
Merlin: I say that I'm a ceramicist.
Merlin: Oh, that's right.
Merlin: You're a ceramicist.
Merlin: That's the best answer.
Merlin: And if you seem like you may be a little care, I say I do things with computers.
John: Yeah.
John: I've heard you say that you're a ceramicist to people.
Merlin: Have you really heard that?
John: Yeah.
John: And watch them nod.
Merlin: Cause I think people don't believe I actually, I actually say that.
John: I think – I generally get the sense that you are going to say it only to people who are not – who you can tell are not – already not listening.
Merlin: Well, it's the same problem you run into with the circles you move in in the corridors of power.
Merlin: That might be a mixed metaphor.
Merlin: But you run into people who like want to – like at the slideshow with the African-American kids, right?
Merlin: You run into people who want to suss out whether they should be talking to you.
John: Are you an entrepreneur?
No.
Merlin: Hmm.
John: We're all entrepreneurs.
Merlin: Cause I'm a serial entrepreneur.
Merlin: My problem is like my entire life is not structured around any aspect of having a straight answer.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: No, not by design.
Merlin: It's just that, you know, setting aside my, my, uh, uh, liberal artisticness, like it's really hard for me to explain all kinds of things.
Merlin: And, uh,
Merlin: I just, I never process what I do.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: So here's, here's one admission.
Merlin: I'm going to allow this.
Merlin: It is that sometimes I will say like, I want to stop what's happening right now because as a father now, I sometimes wonder whether this will appear on a form in an emergency room.
Merlin: sometimes I will think like, how will this look if I have to explain this in a, you know, the forms, they don't give you a large area and I'm somewhat, you know, bibulous as they say.
Merlin: And so, uh, I don't want to have to explain things because I rarely can.
Merlin: And let alone my job, let alone in decision I've made, like, uh, it's the worst.
Merlin: I mean, like, like, what do you say when people ask you what you do?
Merlin: I mean, you, do you just say rockstar or like, what do you say?
John: Well, this is the thing.
John: As you probably can guess, I've spent my entire life prepared to, at any moment, be put on the stand in a capital murder case.
Merlin: God damn it, I wish I had a bell.
Merlin: You grew up knowing that you could someday be called to a Senate hearing where they would say, listen, listen, we're fast tracking you for this.
Merlin: I cannot promise you this is going anywhere, but you might be the head of the CIA.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Get on a Cessna tonight.
John: Right.
John: Right.
John: A Cessna citation.
John: At which point I would put my hand over the microphone and I would consult with my attorney.
John: And then I would come back.
John: I would come back and say, I also, Senator, own stock in AT&T and IBM and Weyerhaeuser Timber or whatever.
Merlin: And they bring in your brother from Sicily.
Merlin: And just his appearance in the courtroom makes you so unhinged.
John: That you say, well, I was in the olive oil.
Merlin: God, I love you so much.
John: But in any case, the two things that I'm always prepared for at any moment are to be subpoenaed and also to go to prison.
John: So it's more than packing a small bag.
John: Like you're really you're ready.
John: I'm ready.
John: And one of the one of the one of the ways that I have I maintain that readiness, particularly in the case of going to prison, is that I have never read Shakespeare's sonnets because I'm saving them for prison.
John: You need to know what you're going to read in prison.
John: Okay.
John: In order to have your whole, like, Phoenix Rising from the Ashes story.
John: You've got something to look forward to?
John: Yeah.
John: Malcolm X read the dictionary in prison, and that is bullshit, first of all.
John: But second of all, that's like, that made...
John: That made that autobiography of Malcolm X. I mean, that is the turning point of that.
John: That's the crux.
Merlin: I think that's Alex Haley imagining that if he were in prison, with all due respect to literally everyone involved, that's Alex Haley imagining that he might read the dictionary.
John: But that had a profound effect on me when I was however old I read it.
John: And I was like, what am I going to read when I go to prison?
John: I should think about that.
John: That's right.
John: And I said, you can't just come out of prison and say, yeah, I read a lot of Dashiell Hammett.
Merlin: Or I read a lot of... I read InStyle magazine when I could get it.
John: I went down to the prison library every week and got three National Geographic's.
John: And a Henry Huggins.
John: No, you have to go into prison with the knowledge that you are there and you are going to read...
John: And in my case, it's all of Shakespeare from start to finish.
John: And I have intentionally, I never took a Shakespeare class in college for this very reason.
Merlin: You're keeping your powder dry.
John: That's exactly right.
Merlin: And let's be honest, I don't want to give up your game here, but it seems to me, yes, you are preparing a reading list for literally when you are perhaps unjustly
Merlin: It doesn't matter.
Merlin: Absolutely.
Merlin: I will have been framed, clearly.
Merlin: Which is all the more reason to know what you want to say you read while you were in prison.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: So yes, you will set aside some of these sonnets, which are actually, I don't want to know spoilers, but they're actually not that good.
Merlin: But you will come out saying, I've learned a lot about myself and I've learned a lesson about love.
John: That's right.
John: I read all Shakespeare's.
John: I read everything.
John: I read Shakespeare from front to back.
John: You know, I haven't been able to avoid reading Shakespeare.
John: I've tried.
John: But, I mean, I've had to do it, but I have saved large portions of it for prison.
John: Now, as for the subpoena that could come at any moment...
John: This is a corollary of the lie detector question, which is, do you think you could fool a lie detector?
Merlin: Oh!
Merlin: Wait a minute, wait a minute, back up.
Merlin: So F. Lee Bailey says to you...
Merlin: counselor, do you think you could fool a lie detector and you're ready for that?
John: You have to, yeah, you have to have an answer.
John: Okay.
John: Sorry.
John: Sorry.
Merlin: Go ahead.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: So, so, so number one, you got your reading list.
John: You got the reading list for prison where you're going.
John: On a frame-up job.
John: But while you're sitting, while you are testifying in court, you have to, like, we all know the wrong way to do it.
John: We all know that, you know, you don't break down on the stand and admit you committed the crime.
John: You don't look too smug.
John: You know, you have to be personable.
John: I mean, I'm telling you, you're a sitting juror.
John: You know what it's like.
John: I'm sure that the defendant... John, I couldn't say if I knew.
Merlin: I know, I know that I have heard it is said that conduct during the trial, it is said, it is said that it is up to us to decide what evidence we will believe in all or in part is.
Merlin: And it is said, not we, it's the royal we.
Merlin: You can also consider like how somebody behaved during the trial, which is generally stupid.
Merlin: If you behave like you generally don't know things, you will tend to do better.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: Really?
John: Really?
John: As opposed to... Can we talk about this again in a week?
John: As opposed to appearing like a smug guy who's got all the answers.
Merlin: Well, you know, you're the one who's thought this out, but I'm just going to say, if you sit there and go, yeah, I know that.
Merlin: Like 40 times in a row, and then you go, duh.
Merlin: That's going to be problematic if you keep going, could you repeat the question?
Merlin: I was distracted by the fucking fluorescent lights.
John: You want to get on there and you want to be a homespun.
Merlin: You got to be even.
Merlin: Very even.
John: Nice face.
Merlin: Whatever persona you have, it has to be plausible.
Merlin: It is said.
Merlin: You got to stick with it.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: And it has to give you lots of wiggle room for being a dumbass.
Merlin: Like we occasionally got to go, I can read, but I'm confused.
John: Yeah.
John: Ronald Reagan popularized that defense.
Merlin: Yes.
John: He barely remembered anything.
John: Right.
Merlin: And then, you know, the Iran-Contra thing, like you're either stupid or incompetent.
Merlin: Let the jury figure that out.
John: It is said.
John: Let the jury decide.
Merlin: Do you know how much on appeal this podcast is going to be problematic?
John: But that's the wonderful thing about this podcast.
John: We very seldom...
John: make any reference to dates.
John: That's right.
John: As you like to say, you like them to be evergreen.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And so really, any time after October of 1986, people will still enjoy this, even though it was literally recorded.
Merlin: So the subpoena comes along, you're ready, you got a bag packed, you got a Cessna Citation?
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Is that a safe plane?
John: Cessna Citation?
John: Yeah, that's a safe plane.
Merlin: How far can you go with that?
Merlin: A Beechcraft Baron?
Merlin: Let me rephrase the question.
Merlin: To your knowledge,
Merlin: If you were in the continental United States, how far do you think – strike that.
Merlin: You're ready.
Merlin: You got the subpoena.
Merlin: The subpoena comes along and what's your preparation?
John: Oh, my preparation?
John: I mean – Well, you know, I mean like – There is no preparation.
John: Like they show up at the door and it's just like – I don't buy that.
Merlin: I'm sorry, counselor.
Merlin: I'm going to object to that as unresponsive because it seems to me that you must have thought through –
Merlin: If you're taking a pattern, if I may say, as large as subpoena arrives, you've thought about a general kind of comportment because you have literally no, if I could say, fucking idea what they're going to subpoena you for.
John: You may know.
Merlin: It's like Benjamin Franklin and spanking, right?
Merlin: Hit him every day.
Merlin: If you don't know what it's for, they will, right?
Merlin: So they spank you with a subpoena, you get on something called a citation, you show up, you borrow a tie, you sit down like a fucking gentleman, and you're ready for anything.
John: But here, there's four possibilities.
John: One, you are not guilty, and through your actions, you appear not guilty to your interrogators.
John: Two...
John: You are not guilty, but through some misaction on your part, you appear guilty to your interrogators.
John: Or either through some poor action on your part or through prejudice on their part.
Merlin: So number two is like the seeds of a frame-up.
John: Yeah, they discern guilt where there is none.
John: And you, in your innocence, are unable to dislodge them.
John: from this misapprehension.
John: Third possibility is that you are guilty, but succeed in appearing innocent.
John: And the fourth obviously is that you are guilty and fail to appear innocent.
John: Okay.
John: So in these subpoena scenarios, I have no idea which one, well, I have no idea whether, first of all, I'm innocent or guilty of what they're accusing me of, because it's very possible that I'm guilty of,
Merlin: I think spending a lot of time on number... With all due respect to the lady in the bathroom, spending a good amount of time on number two preparation is a pretty good idea.
John: Yes.
Merlin: Because number one, what you're really saying is, I've been called in here and I'm not your guy.
Merlin: You're wasting your time on me because even if you prove what you're trying to prove, you will not prove enough... I actually didn't do it and I'm not that interesting...
John: All four scenarios, what you are aspiring to appear to be is the guy in the first scenario.
John: Right?
John: If you are not guilty and you appear not guilty, that is what you want to look like, even if you are totally guilty.
John: So everybody's reflecting back...
John: to guy number one and trying to imagine how they can act like him.
John: How do you act not guilty?
Merlin: But more than not guilty, guy number one is not guilty and he shouldn't even be there.
John: Right.
John: Not guilty.
Merlin: I mean, that's important, right?
Merlin: Not only not guilty.
Merlin: Because number two is you go, oh, I'm raising an eyebrow.
Merlin: Because clearly guy number two seems like our guy.
Merlin: Let's hear what he has to say.
Merlin: Number one is you go like, clearly this person is...
Merlin: you know, incapable of this, or there's so much mitigating evidence that this person is like, Oh, sorry.
Merlin: Like in two questions, you go like with all due respect, you're a retard.
Merlin: Let's move on to like a two, three or a four.
John: Well, the other, the other night I'm driving home.
John: I got, I got rooked into going to see, uh, this dumb, fast and furious movie.
John: This recent one.
Mm-hmm.
John: And I have never been to see any of the other Fast and Furious movies, so I had no context for it other than I understood that they were going to go fast and that they were furious.
John: And so I go to this thing, and it's insensible.
John: It's just a bunch of action sequences strung together with some, like, all the actors appeared to be wearing wood underpants.
John: And they're reading the back of a cereal box aloud that someone's holding up right off camera.
John: Yeah.
John: And then they get in a car and then it's exciting for 10 minutes.
John: But I'm driving home from the theater.
John: It's 2 o'clock in the morning.
John: I'm in my hot little car.
John: I have a little hot car that I drive sometimes.
John: And I'm driving along and I'm like, you know, I've just watched a movie where people are really, really driving their cars fast.
John: And I have that in me too.
John: And I know on the stretch from downtown to my house, I know all the places where the state troopers hide.
John: I'm driving along and I just get this feeling like, what if I just say screw the troopers and just drive like a bat out of hell?
John: And so I'm driving along and I'm imagining...
John: I'm imagining one, then two, then three troopers in hot pursuit of me.
John: And I'm thinking to myself now, if I'm going to lose these troopers, you know, troopers know all the back roads, too.
John: Troopers know a lot of the stuff that I know.
John: But...
John: You know, no one expects the Spanish Inquisition and the troopers are not expecting me in my hot little car.
Hmm.
John: Because, you know, I grew up driving on ice, so I understand how to drift, if you get my drift.
Merlin: Yeah, but they got, like, cop engine, cop shocks, cop suspensions.
John: Yeah, they do.
John: They need a cigarette lighter, but they have all that other stuff.
John: And I'm thinking, how am I going to get away from these troopers?
John: And, you know, there's a lot of, like, you're counting on blind corners where you can zig around.
John: And, you know, zig up and then zap over and then cut your cut your lights and hope that they keep going straight into a hopeful cornfield.
John: And I was and I was practicing that I was practicing the routes that I would take home if I were being pursued by cops.
John: And I felt pretty good about my chances.
John: pulling up at my, pulling up at my house, cutting the engine, getting out and making it into the inside before they started doing block to block searches.
John: You know what I mean?
John: Like they would know, they wouldn't know in a short amount of time that, that I had, that I was in a certain area and then they would just start going block to block.
John: But my hot little car is a kind of anonymous car.
John: It's, there are so many of them out in the world.
John: It's like,
Merlin: As your counsel, I'm going to say don't say any more.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: But you've got a car that is plausibly capable of arousing the interest of a cop.
John: Right.
Merlin: And you've got the means, the motive, and the opportunity to drive fast as a practice run.
Merlin: Right.
John: Okay.
John: So I'm sitting in my house now, and now I'm rehearsing Knock on the Door.
John: Now, you're going to open that door, and there's going to be a really angry couple of state troopers standing on the porch.
John: And they have come down your block with their spotlight on.
John: They found your car.
John: They've gotten out.
John: They've put their hand on the hood, and it is hot.
John: Yep.
Merlin: Encyclopedia Brown.
John: And now they're standing on your front porch, and you are standing there in your bathrobe, let's say.
John: And you are saying...
John: Good evening.
John: Can I help you?
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Now, how you play that, because they cannot prove that that was you.
John: They didn't get your license number.
John: And they're trying to say that because you are, let's say, driving a green Subaru Outback that has recently been running,
John: that you're their guy, and you are going to stand there on the porch and say, well, there are green Subaru Outbacks everywhere.
John: It's kind of a ubiquitous car.
Merlin: What a suspicious thing to say.
John: But you're not going to say that because that's not the first thing out of your mouth.
John: They're going to cuff you right away if you've thought about it.
John: So you have to stand there and go through the dance with them.
Merlin: You have to be confused and scared.
John: Yeah, that's right.
John: Confused and scared.
John: But how to act confused and scared in your bathrobe in the night
John: and how to gradually make the transition to a kind of indignant, like, are you accusing me of something?
Merlin: Yeah, I'm a homeowner, right?
John: Yeah, and then make it all the way to...
John: Well, I like to help the police as much as I can, but I don't like your tone, sir.
John: How to smooth that all the way from one... With the certain knowledge that you are guilty and you are standing there in your bathrobe
John: as play acting, boy, that's tough.
John: You've got to be a real... You know what?
John: You've got to rehearse that.
John: You do.
John: You have to practice it.
John: Right.
John: So I'm practicing it all the time.
Merlin: So, I mean, you know, I mentioned Encyclopedia Brown because that is truly one of the great stories.
Merlin: You know, if you can put your baby on the hood of the car, it's obviously...
Merlin: Not been driven.
Merlin: So they come out, they feel your hood, if I could say.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And they go, this is somebody worth talking to.
John: That's right.
John: That's right.
Merlin: Right.
John: He fits the criteria.
John: Like he's within this five block area.
Merlin: His Subaru or similar is hot.
Merlin: It's hot.
Yeah.
Merlin: And so now your job is to obfuscate.
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: You know, we're going to cut all of this out.
Merlin: I know.
Merlin: But I mean, you know, one idea might be to keep some Marlboros and diapers by the door.
Merlin: Uh-huh.
Merlin: And just say...
Merlin: Well, yeah, obviously you're going to be wearing a bathrobe.
Merlin: I went to the store.
Merlin: What's the matter?
Merlin: No, no, no.
Merlin: Here's the thing.
Merlin: You show up in your bathrobe with a fake baby or not in your arms.
Merlin: And you say, oh, I know what this is about.
Merlin: I forgot to pay for these diapers or Snickers bars.
John: Oh, interesting.
Merlin: Because you know what?
Merlin: Red herring.
John: Yeah, red herring.
John: Don't you think?
John: You give them a reason.
Merlin: I'm nervous.
Merlin: I'm nervous because I feel like a bad person.
John: You've got a baby in your arm and you open the door and you say, what did that bitch say I did next?
John: Right.
John: And they're like, what?
John: And you're like, oh, my God.
John: Classic misdirect.
John: So you won't get off my jock.
John: Am I right?
John: Yeah.
John: Did I ever tell you about the time I tried to run from the cops?
Merlin: No.
John: No, John, I don't think you have.
John: I actually tried to run from the cops.
John: No, I want to hear.
John: So it was back in the 80s, and this guy I knew in Spokane, whose dad had recently died, and he bought a brand new 4Runner, Toyota 4Runner, which was the coolest car any of us could think of at the time.
John: because that was during the era when we were mountain ski bum types.
John: I was a mountain ski bum aspirant.
Merlin: That's like a sexy minivan meets a Range Rover?
John: Yeah, it's like a four-wheel drive, but the original 4Runners were still small scale, so it felt like a Jeep kind of rig.
John: But it seated four or six people.
John: You know, it was kind of like the proto-SUV before there was such a thing as an SUV.
John: And he said...
John: That he was going over to Seattle.
John: We were in Spokane.
John: He was going over to Seattle because he wanted to see a show.
John: A rock show.
John: And so this is 1980, let's say 1988.
John: And I have spent years trying to figure out what rock show it was.
John: Because...
John: In 1988 in Seattle, this kid in Spokane wants to make the trip over the mountains to see this rock show at the Central Tavern.
John: It had to have been some amazing rock show.
John: And at the time, I didn't recognize the name of the band.
John: I was just like, oh, you're going to Seattle?
John: Can I tag along?
John: And he's like, yeah, sure, you can split the driving with me or whatever.
John: And so we head out of Spokane, but for whatever reason, we don't take the interstate.
John: We take the small road.
John: We take the upper road, which is like two-lane highway.
Merlin: The blue highways, as Billy Idol says.
John: That's right.
John: We take the blue highways.
John: That's actually a book, Blue Highways, about taking the blue highways.
John: Anyway, we're driving and we're driving.
John: It gets to be night.
John: It turns out that taking the blue highways was a bad idea because what was a five-hour drive to Seattle became like an 11-hour drive because we were stopping in all these one-horse towns for their one stoplight.
Merlin: Oh, and they got the stoplight they're monitoring.
Yeah.
John: And so at a certain point, this guy, whose name was Chris, he says, I'm going to climb in the back and try and get some sleep.
John: You drive.
John: And I'm like, okay, I'm driving.
John: So here we go.
John: We're going to make up some time.
John: And we're going across the Cascade Mountains.
John: And I'm kind of putting the pedal down, as we say.
John: And the fog is coming in.
John: And it's nighttime.
John: And we're going through this little mountain road.
John: And we come through this town.
John: Little like, you know, wide spot in the road kind of town.
John: And I'm, I'm kind of hauling ass.
John: And it's one of these towns where the speed limit dropped down to 25.
John: Right.
John: And I'm still at 65 and I blow by this cop.
John: Oh no.
John: And I look at him and he looks at me and we look at each other.
Merlin: I'm like, fuck.
Merlin: You had your Smokey and the Bandit moment.
John: I did.
Merlin: Kind of right.
Yeah.
John: Absolutely.
John: I look at him.
Merlin: Did he actually throw his hat at you?
John: It was the type of thing where he did a spit take of his sandwich.
John: He spilled his coffee in his lap.
John: And he was like, those Duke boys.
John: And I said, fuck it.
John: And I floored it.
John: And I'm like, it's foggy.
John: It's nighttime.
John: I'm in a four-wheel drive truck.
John: The odds are on my side.
John: I'm in a four-wheel drive truck.
John: I'm 19.
John: Like, I've got this.
John: And so I stay on the highway for a little bit, hauling ass, and as soon as I start to see his flashers, his rollers, like, in the distance, like, reflecting off the fog in my rearview mirror, I hang a right off of the main road onto, like, a dirt side road,
John: which leads back into a kind of like side part of this town.
John: And I go up three blocks over two blocks, take a left and pull in.
John: And I'm trying, I'm going to pull into the driveway of a house, kill the lights, but I kind of pull in to the front yard of this house and I kill the lights and,
John: I pull the emergency brake and duck my head down.
John: And Chris in the back, still asleep.
John: And I sit there for like one, two, three, and then cop from the left, cop from the right, cops in every direction, cops everywhere.
John: And I had failed to lose these cops.
Wow.
John: And so they get me out of the car super mad.
John: And they say, what the, what, you know, like, what's your story?
John: And I say,
John: My story was I didn't see him.
John: I was just driving and I was going a little fast because I really had to pee.
John: And I pulled off the road looking for a place to pee.
John: And I ended up... I needed to pee so bad that I stopped here.
John: And the cop said...
John: pulled up on a person's lawn you're driving in the mountains and you went into a town and four blocks in three blocks over and pulled out of a person's lawn to pee that's your story he said you look me in the eye and i said i did i swear to you i didn't see you i was just very distracted by needing to pee
John: And so they pull Chris out of the back of the truck, you know, out of a deep sleep.
Merlin: So he was asleep for the entire chase.
John: He wakes up surrounded by cops.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: And it's his.
Merlin: He's got the title on that.
John: It's his truck.
John: And the cop says, what's this guy's name?
John: Well, who's the who's the driver?
John: How do you know him?
John: And Chris said, John something.
John: I'm not sure.
John: And the cop's like, you don't know this guy?
John: And he's like, well, I mean, not really.
John: Chris was like a... He was a skater dude and kind of didn't say a lot.
John: So he was giving the cop one-word answers.
John: And I didn't realize... Chris had no idea what my name was.
John: He was like, John, Jim, Joe.
John: And so I sit there and just stick to my guns, stick to this ludicrous story.
John: that i was just looking for a place to pee man and i swear i you know like i would never run from the cops what am i stupid and event and the the the cop that that looked at me he was apoplectic with rage but there was no
John: There was no, you know, they really, they tried to pull a good cop, bad cop thing.
John: And eventually I heard the one saying like, there's nothing we can do about it.
John: You just have to let it go.
Merlin: Really?
John: And they gave me a ticket for speeding.
John: What?
John: Because they had me on the radar.
John: That's it?
John: Yeah.
John: And they said, they told Chris not to let me drive anymore.
Merlin: That's so fruity.
Merlin: I can't believe they didn't run you in.
John: We drove away.
Merlin: That's crazy.
John: Yeah.
John: Let me off.
John: And, you know, years later, that would have been like one of the three strikes during the three strike years.
John: Sure.
John: Evading.
Merlin: What would you do differently today?
Merlin: I mean, you know, given the same thing, let's say you, for whatever reason, really had to get somewhere.
Merlin: And, you know, you had your reasons.
John: It was cannonball run, let's say.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You got the, what was it, Coors?
Merlin: As the New Yorker would say.
Merlin: You had to really get it somewhere.
Merlin: I'm Roger Moore.
Merlin: Hello.
Merlin: And so, you know, like for whatever reason, you had your reasons, you were driving fast, maybe you had to get to a show or whatever.
John: Right, right, right.
Merlin: Or a blog.
Right.
Merlin: I had to get to a blog.
Merlin: You had to get to a blog.
Merlin: You were driving fast.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: What would you do differently today?
Merlin: Like, starting at the whole, like, I'm on the open road.
Merlin: Does it begin with, like, I'm a grown man and I don't have to drive fast?
John: Yeah, yeah.
John: I have dealt with speed traps.
John: You know, during the touring years where I was...
John: you know, doing tens of thousands of miles of highway time a year, the whole speed trap game is just not one that, it's just not worth rolling the dice on.
Merlin: No, no.
Merlin: Those really add up.
John: You roll into West Texas, and as dumb as it is, you just know that you're going to go 55 for a while.
John: This happens in Florida.
Merlin: When I would go on I-75 or US-19 or whatever, you would get that.
Merlin: I think what you're describing, if I hear you correctly, counselor, is that it would suddenly go from 55 or, I guess, what's the upper speed limit?
Merlin: 70?
Merlin: I don't know.
John: Now I think it's 70.
John: Yeah.
John: Is it 80 maybe some places in Wyoming?
Merlin: But in Florida, it would not be unusual to go from whatever the upper limit is to like, here's a little sign to let you know it's 55.
Merlin: And here's this one that's really hard to see about how it's now 10.
John: Yeah.
John: The sign behind a large rhododendron.
Yeah.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Exactly.
Merlin: And then you get the blinking red light, which kind of says – it's a pussy light.
Merlin: Let's be honest.
Merlin: And you skate through it.
Merlin: But I mean you're – I think there's – first of all, a lot of people do legitimately have to pee.
John: Yes.
Merlin: They want to get to the Cracker Barrel.
John: It's a real problem.
Merlin: They want to get a tarpaulin at the Walmart, whatever reason.
Merlin: And I'm not here to judge.
Merlin: I'm not a –
John: Maybe they're making a campsite.
John: Maybe they're camping with their RV and they need a tarpaulin.
Merlin: Maybe they need to cut some trail.
Merlin: But the point is that that does happen.
Merlin: For people who don't travel, that is a real thing.
Merlin: From maximum speed limit to easily bustable speed limit might be half a mile or a mile.
John: Yeah.
John: And I don't mess around with them anymore.
John: I just, I see this because I've been, I've been nailed in so many speed traps somewhere.
John: I have tried to run from the cops somewhere.
John: I have mostly, I have not, but then it's up.
Merlin: Your margins are not huge, right?
Merlin: Like you cannot afford a $200 ticket.
John: Well, the famous story, the first time I ever met, not a surf.
John: They got pulled over.
Merlin: They were smoking in France.
John: They got pulled over in West Texas.
John: And the cop walked up and Ira, the drummer, rolled down the window and the cop was like, all right, boy, I can smell the reefer.
John: So either I get a bunch of dogs out here and we go through your whole truck and car and everything.
John: And I find it, and then I'm like, I'm not going to be gentle.
Merlin: Hard or easy, Dreadlock.
John: That's right.
John: Or you can just tell me, you can show me the pot right now.
John: And Ira, in his stone drummer...
John: Dumbness was like, oh, okay, here's our pot.
John: Pulled out the big bank pot.
John: Not a surf.
John: Everybody out of the van.
John: And he put them in jail.
John: No.
John: In stripy pajamas.
John: With this little stripy.
John: He put them in Auschwitz pants.
John: He did.
John: He put them in stripy pajamas with the little stripy pillbox hat.
Yeah.
John: That's so unflattering.
John: And they were on their way to Austin to play a big show.
John: It was the first time we were ever going to play together.
John: I'm sorry, John.
Merlin: They've got those folded up and just sitting around.
Merlin: It's not something where you go to like – so here's the thing.
Merlin: There's jail and there's prison, Counselor.
Merlin: Like there's jail, which is a place where you go for a sub-felony offense for usually, if I understand correctly, Counselor, less than a year.
Merlin: And then prison is a – Pearl Jam?
Merlin: What?
Merlin: You go to a place then, once you're sentenced –
Merlin: And then prison is where you go to serve your term.
Merlin: And like if you're in someplace like that, you know, crazy guy in Arizona, you sleep in a tent and they give you pink clothes.
Merlin: But like my sense was you mainly wear civvies when you're in like overnight jail.
John: Yeah.
John: I mean, they don't.
John: Yeah.
John: In overnight jail.
Merlin: Who has the resources for stripy pajamas?
John: No, these were humiliation pajamas.
John: These were stripy jail pajamas so that they could take your picture with the little pillbox hat on.
John: They could take your picture and laugh and laugh and laugh.
John: I'm sure they have photo albums at that jail.
John: I mean, I'm sure they put Willie Nelson in those.
John: I'm sure they put everybody in those.
John: I'm sure they got a picture of a red-faced Alec Baldwin.
John: Put on this brassiere.
John: There you go, boy.
John: Change into these.
John: We ain't going to take no risks of you hanging yourself with your... That's a jail brassiere.
John: Shoelaces.
John: So the next night, we're all waiting at the show, waiting at the venue.
John: Like, are they going to make it?
John: Are they not?
John: You know, they had to bail themselves out of this fucking jail, this West Texas jail.
John: So I don't mess around with speed traps.
John: I just slow the fuck down.
John: That's what they want.
John: It's only two miles long.
Whew.
Merlin: I feel like I've already grown because I don't have a giant sense of this.
Merlin: What I do know is this, that whatever your plan – I should not even say this because this might be admissible, counselor.
Merlin: But whatever your plan is, it should be a plan that comports with your default freakout nature.
Merlin: And if your default freakout nature is you clam up –
Merlin: Like that's okay.
Merlin: But for me, my default clam up nature might be like your friend, the drummer, which is like, duh, duh.
Merlin: Here's what I did wrong.
John: Okay.
John: Right.
Merlin: All right.
Merlin: You're right.
Merlin: I killed her.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: So you got me.
Merlin: You got me.
Merlin: Cletus.
Merlin: But like, what if you, and I don't know if you have this kind of control or access, but what if you literally shat yourself like as you're being pulled over?
Merlin: They call that the Ted Nugent.
Yeah.
Merlin: Thank you.
Merlin: We're done here.