Ep. 251: "Popped Out"
Merlin: Hello.
Merlin: Hi, John.
Merlin: Merlin, man.
Merlin: John Roderick.
Merlin: It's been like seven years.
John: I really got to get a better song for you.
Merlin: you know i just i'll just say that sometimes i'll just be walking around i'll go how do you feel
Merlin: Ain't got nobody.
Merlin: So how do you feel about that particular little hairpin in the career of D.L.
Merlin: Roth?
Merlin: How do you feel about that?
Merlin: What is it?
Merlin: Stinky from the Heat?
Merlin: What's it called?
Merlin: Loco del Color?
Merlin: What's the name of it?
Merlin: Taco Pastor.
John: Crazy from the Heat.
John: Crazy Loco del Color.
Merlin: Uh-huh.
Merlin: David Lee Roth official website.
John: How do I feel about it?
John: How did I feel about it then, or how do I feel about it now?
Merlin: Well, well, oh, goodness.
Merlin: Okay, I'm going to close this tab.
Merlin: Well, here's what you had.
Merlin: You had the Van Halen, who had, like, five really good albums.
Merlin: Well, you know, four really good albums.
Merlin: They had some good albums.
Merlin: And then DLR left...
Merlin: And Sammy Hagar asked the musical question, why can't this be love?
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: So I don't remember exactly what happened.
Merlin: I think there was some bad blood with Edward.
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: And DLR, DL Roth, goes off on his own and puts out Loco Del Calor.
Merlin: And what were the hits?
Merlin: He had the California Girls.
John: Yep.
Merlin: And just a gigolo slash I Got Nobody.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: Those were the big hits.
John: I don't even think it was a full record, was it?
John: Wasn't it like a big EP?
Merlin: Was it?
Merlin: Crazy from the Heat.
Merlin: Oh, my goodness.
Merlin: Oh, my goodness.
Merlin: Now, wait.
John: Oh, Eat Em and Smile.
Merlin: Eat Em and Smile came in 1986.
Merlin: Oh, my goodness.
Merlin: You are so right.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Here we go.
Merlin: We got four tracks.
John: It's like a 14-minute long record.
Merlin: Oh, my goodness.
Merlin: 1406.
Merlin: Ted Templeman has his imprimatur on that one, too.
John: Right.
John: I mean, think about how many copies of that EP sold.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: And think about how difficult... Every single person started a cover band.
John: Only a thousand people ever bought it.
John: Think about that and think about this is the thing I've reflected on this before, which is that David Lee Roth did not write any songs for this album.
John: They're all covers.
John: So how difficult would it have been for him to make a full length album at this point?
John: He could have just picked ten Tin Pan Alley songs instead of four.
Merlin: Okay, so he's got an Edgar Winner, an Edgar Winner song, an Edgar Winner cover.
Merlin: You've got a Louis Prima, right, Louis Prima cover.
Merlin: You've got a Beach Boys cover.
Merlin: You've got a cover of a song I've never heard of by The Love and Spoonful.
Merlin: Four songs.
Merlin: Four songs.
John: Now, why didn't he do Good Morning Little School Girl?
John: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones.
Merlin: Now, if I were nominating some covers for David Lee Roth, for DLR, the man himself, D.L.
Merlin: Roth, to do...
Merlin: in 1984, released in 1985.
Merlin: I think Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem Dry Bones has got to be high on the list.
Merlin: Absolutely.
Merlin: Absolutely.
Merlin: Wow!
Merlin: It's just a strange turn, is all I'm saying.
Merlin: It feels like a rush-to-market strategy, I think is the business term.
Merlin: You probably want to get something out.
Merlin: But look at the personnel.
Merlin: You look at the personnel on this.
Merlin: He had Carl Wilson and Christopher Cross in the studio.
John: Wow.
John: Well, he had the power, right?
John: Mm-hmm.
John: This is before he put together the band with Steve Vai.
John: Let's see.
John: You got Eat Em and Smile.
John: You got Yankee Rose.
John: See, what I'm saying, though, is that if you look at the five great or, let's say, four great Van Halen albums with DLR, every one of them's got Ice Cream Man or, you know, there's always a tune on there.
John: One break coming up.
John: There's so much of that stuff that would fit right on Eat Him and Smile or right on Crazy from the Heat.
John: David was chomping at the bit.
John: I think this is one of those, you know, the way Lennon talks about McCartney where he's like, oh, by the time I got to the end, I just knew exactly what he was going to play at all times.
John: He thought McCartney was corny.
John: And I think that Eddie Van Halen from the very beginning was like, this guy is such a cheese ball.
John: David always wanted to put more accordion in the thing.
Merlin: good morning good morning eventually he was like i i gotta i gotta do this myself i gotta get out there and put on a show for people and have fun he's a john roderick dl roth is above all a showman a show man in the business that is show you know you cannot keep that man in a box the answer to dlr in a box is not a bigger box let that man out of his box
Merlin: Because he's got to show.
John: And he did.
John: He did.
John: He shooed.
John: When that video came out, it encapsulated the 80s.
John: It really did.
John: That was peak 80s.
John: DLR on the beach with all the, and you know, and like shameless.
John: It was so shameless.
John: Check my math here, but it had a lot of girls in bikinis.
John: Was that right?
John: Girls in bikinis.
John: There was a lot of fisheye lens shots.
Hmm.
John: It was just like a costume parade.
John: It was like a day at Venice Beach.
John: I don't know.
John: There was a version of the 80s.
John: Let's say a version of the 80s that that was the peak moment of it.
Merlin: Peak moment of cocaine 80s.
Merlin: Peak mid-80s.
Merlin: I'm going to peg to either that or You Spin Me Round by Dead or Alive.
Merlin: Oh, we'll see.
Merlin: Yeah, sure.
Merlin: That was one of the first, well, excluding Bananarama, which we really haven't talked enough about.
Merlin: Excluding Bananarama, that's when the stock Aitken Waterman thing, I think that might have been their first, SAW's first big hit, was You Spin Me Round.
Merlin: And then they kind of owned it for a couple of years.
Merlin: Everything went bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.
Merlin: It was all octaves everywhere.
Merlin: Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.
Merlin: I listened to a, yeah, I listened to that the other day.
Merlin: I listened to the single version, which I like, but I listened to an extended, it starts out mostly instrumental.
Merlin: And you know, remember that thing when they do a remix, which is basically a long version where they would have part of the vocals and the vocals would be echoey and they call it a remix.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: But, man, that is a Swiss clock of sequencing.
Merlin: That's some nice-ass sequencing.
Merlin: Anyway, I'm taking you off your topic.
Merlin: But that was a pivot point in the mid-'80s, I think, was You Spin Me Around.
Merlin: But you might be right.
Merlin: You might be right about Loco Del Calor.
John: The break in that, in You Spin Me Right Round...
John: Where it goes... That's very tough.
John: It's fun to play.
Merlin: Even on an acoustic guitar, you go like, you know, like A-E-E-E-G-C-C or G-D-D.
Merlin: You do like a little walk down.
Merlin: Wait, that's an octave.
Merlin: It's an octave.
Merlin: It's an octave or a fifth?
Merlin: That's an octave.
Merlin: Anyway, it's super fun to do, but you do a walk down.
Merlin: It's basically a wipe out.
John: Right.
Merlin: It's the Wipeout Walkdown.
John: The Wipeout Walkdown?
John: There's a Zeppelin tune that also does that.
Merlin: Yeah, there's a pretty well-known one with that exact same walkdown in the same key, I believe.
Merlin: Pretty well-known.
Merlin: By a band called Taurus, I believe.
Merlin: Well, who was the man they ripped off?
Merlin: Was it Taurus?
Merlin: Tarsus?
Merlin: Tarsus.
Merlin: Tarsus.
Merlin: It is early.
Merlin: Stairway Ripoff Heaven.
Merlin: Never going to give you up.
Merlin: No, that was S.A.W.
Merlin: That was S.A.W.
Merlin: You got Kylie Minogue.
Merlin: Pump up the volume.
Merlin: Pump up the volume.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Pump that beat.
Merlin: Maybe we should just vocalize songs we like from the 80s.
John: I feel like that was a low point.
John: That was the beginning of the end for me.
John: That high energy.
John: That's exactly, that's the genre.
John: It's N-R-G.
John: Yeah, that was, for me, that was where I started to pop out of 80s pop.
John: Oh, okay, pop out.
John: Because it was so, and I'm not talking about You Spin Me Round, because that was still New Wave.
John: It felt like that was an exciting moment of new wave.
Merlin: Yeah, that was well, that was also it was with his persona and video and the sound.
Merlin: I mean, that was such a new sound.
Merlin: That was I mean, that did not sound like Shannon.
Merlin: I'm trying to think of other bands of that type, but of that the high energy stuff.
Merlin: But it really had its own sound.
John: He was such a weirdo.
John: He was doing gender play, too, at a time when it was like, what's happening here?
John: It was very exciting.
John: He made Boy George look like a lumberjack.
Merlin: I mean, that guy was really swinging for the fences.
Merlin: He's a lumberjack and he's okay, too.
Merlin: No, you're probably right.
Merlin: But then you slide into, you're sliding into 86, which in some ways is, if not a high watermark, it's a mark.
Merlin: But 1987, things are starting to get pretty rough.
Merlin: 87, 88, and 88, I feel like things really, 87, 88, like under the surface of the water, the ducks feet are moving around, you're getting some Pixies action.
Merlin: But man, a lot of bands released some of their poorest work in 1987, 88.
John: I think of that era as being Bon Jovi-dominated.
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: Right, right, right.
Merlin: On a steel horse, he rides.
John: That was 88, I think.
John: Also, like, In Excess Kick, which I thought was a low point.
John: It was Death Leopard's Adrenalize.
John: It was all these bands that had started off kind of sounding like Teenage ACDC,
John: And by the end had become just like comedic stadium rock.
Mm-hmm.
John: that i just couldn't i couldn't uh i i had to bail out of all of that but it was also peter gabriel's so uh so was 86 sledgehammer's 86 yeah i think yeah okay here we go i don't want to go through this whole thing because it would take a year but the listed billboard hot 100 number one singles of 1987 now i admittedly no go to 88 80 go to 88 because you're right that was the that was dead dead time 88 okay
Merlin: Oh, start with Faith by George Michael.
Merlin: That's a good song.
Merlin: All right.
Merlin: So emotional.
Merlin: I think better in retrospect.
Merlin: I got my mind set on you.
Merlin: Not a great song.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: The Way You Make Me Feel, not Pete Jackson.
Merlin: Oh, Need You Tonight.
Merlin: That song bugged me.
Merlin: You and me, we go back and forth on the NXS, but I think the earlier stuff is probably a little better.
John: I Need You Tonight.
John: Well, NXS, I, yeah.
Merlin: This is my entire impersonation of NXS.
Merlin: Bam, bam.
Merlin: Oh, we're never going to give you up.
Merlin: Never going to give you up.
John: What you know is true.
John: I tell you, love your secret heart.
John: I don't know that one.
John: Yeah, you do.
John: What is that?
John: I was standing.
John: You were there.
John: Two worlds collided.
John: You will never tear us apart.
Merlin: Come on, that's a huge hit.
Merlin: Never tear us apart.
Merlin: Wait, is that the pow?
Merlin: Who is that?
Merlin: No, it's NXS.
Merlin: Oh, bam, bam.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Man in the mirror.
Merlin: Ugh, God.
Merlin: Get out of my dreams and get into my car, declaims Billy Ocean.
John: The Stone Roses.
John: When did Stone Roses come out?
John: I'm going to call that 89, 90.
John: That was a year later.
Merlin: Oh, shit dog.
Merlin: Look at this.
Merlin: Okay, hang on.
Merlin: Hang on.
Merlin: A couple more here.
Merlin: Let's see.
Merlin: Wishing Well.
Merlin: That's a pretty good song.
Merlin: To gather forever.
Merlin: The Flame.
Merlin: Terrible song by Cheap Trick.
John: I actually was really into Terrence Trent Darby.
John: for that first I don't know that first blast
John: And then, you know, where did he go?
Merlin: Dude, September 10.
Merlin: That was a good-ass song.
John: That was a good-ass fucking record.
John: That's when that showed up.
John: Steve Winwood, roll with it.
John: Have you noticed this, too?
John: I think what we're getting at here is the beginning of
John: This was the first generation gap that I strongly felt.
Merlin: Oh, really?
Merlin: Like you feel a little left behind or like you walked away from it?
Merlin: You popped out.
John: Well, yeah, not left behind by any means.
John: But like when I was a freshman in high school, the seniors in high school had music that I identified as my music.
John: Even the guys that had graduated a couple of years before I went into high school, the music that they were listening to that was popular at the time, we still claimed as ours.
John: New wave, punk rock, but also... But not like... I was going to say foreigner.
Merlin: I mean, there was this murder of bands from... You think of those...
Merlin: If I say late 70s hard rock bands, there's like six bands we could all name that pretty much everybody liked.
Merlin: You know, everybody like Foreigner, everybody like Boston, almost everybody like Sticks.
Merlin: Everybody had Back in Black.
Merlin: Yeah, well, yeah, and then you get into the heavier stuff.
Merlin: But there was like solid hard rock that was pretty unobjectionable to everybody up until like the early 80s when Foreigner got synthesizers and stuff like that.
John: But that was true all the way through... I mean, even into 86 when we were listening to Glenn Frey and... It's a politics and contraband!
John: All of that stuff came out of bands of the 70s.
John: You can still make a connection to it.
John: But between 86 when I graduated and 88, two years later, I still feel like I meet people in the world...
John: And you want to think, you graduated high school in 88, we are almost exactly the same generation.
John: But I feel so much more in common with the class of 84.
John: That is a really good point.
Merlin: Yes.
John: 84 was the end of the 70s in some ways.
John: Yeah.
John: And by the time I meet somebody who graduated in 88, almost all of their cultural touchstones...
John: are different.
John: They have different beginning points.
John: They're not based in an Aerosmith economy.
John: They're based in a, you know, they came out of New Wave and pop metal in a totally different way.
John: And so I'm always feeling like somebody whose moment was, you know, their junior year or whatever was in the late 80s.
John: I just can't, I don't have that.
John: And I felt it even then.
John: Like, what the hell is happening to you kids?
John: Right.
John: Right, right.
Merlin: And they're getting into the Vigi games.
Merlin: The Vigi games were really catching on around then, too.
John: Yeah.
John: And I was 18 years old, and I already felt like, wow.
John: You're on the cusp.
John: You're between.
John: You're between two generations.
John: That was why that Guns N' Roses record was so powerful, because it felt like a throwback.
Yeah.
Merlin: It felt like... It felt very... It was really well-crafted and felt really authentic.
Merlin: And I know we like to avoid that term on the show when talking about music, but it felt like, no, this is the real deal.
Merlin: Like, this is the shit, man.
John: Well, because those songs were written in a blues vernacular, they were blues scale songs, and all metal at that time had transitioned to mixolydian songs.
John: You know, it had gone through this weird classical, this Yngwie Malmsteen idea that classical music was what we were going to bring into metal.
John: Gone from hard rock to difficult rock.
John: Difficult rock, right, and just like scalloped fretboard rock.
John: I just left a joke.
John: That's so stupid.
Merlin: You're absolutely right, but also you had... You know what?
John: Somebody's got to laugh at your jokes, Merlin.
Merlin: Why not you?
Merlin: Here's the thing.
Merlin: So after that, I don't want to do all of these, but here's your run through, your speed run through the end of the year.
Merlin: It includes Don't Worry, Be Happy, Love Bites by Def Leppard, The Very Interesting Crazy Comeback of Red Red One by UB40, A Groovy Kind of Love.
Merlin: The worst, the worst here.
John: It's on the radio.
John: I leave the venue.
Merlin: Ready for this November.
Merlin: It gets pretty good.
Merlin: You get the Kokomo by the Beach Boys.
Merlin: You get Wild Wild West.
Merlin: With Rob Lowe on drums, right?
Merlin: That was Rob Lowe on drums.
Merlin: No, it's the father from the San Francisco baby show.
Merlin: John Stamos played something.
Merlin: I think he played accordion on that one.
Merlin: You get Wild Wild West, Bad Medicine, Your Love is Like Bad Medicine by Bonneton Jovi.
Merlin: You get Baby I Love Your Way slash Freebird Medley by Will to Power.
Merlin: Look Away by Chicago.
Merlin: And finally, you know it, buddy.
Merlin: Merry Christmas.
Merlin: Every rose has its thorn by Poison.
John: There it is.
John: There it is.
John: And that's it.
John: Annis Horribilis.
John: That is so bad.
John: That is such a bad collection of songs.
John: And you know, that should have been peak us.
John: I was 19, 18, 19.
John: I should have been like, woo.
John: And it was at the time I knew it was garbage.
John: At the time, I was listening to the Steve Miller band because there was nothing else.
John: It's going to buy me a Mercury.
Merlin: Let's see.
Merlin: Oh, Toy Soldiers.
Merlin: Now I'm into 89.
Merlin: I could do this all day.
John: Yeah, me too, but I don't want to, and I don't want to validate that year by talking about it.
John: It was such down time, and I had ejected myself from youth culture.
John: I don't think people now can understand the other thing that was happening.
Merlin: Youth culture killed your dog.
John: Well, it was the 20-year anniversary of...
John: of the year that the baby broomers crested, 1968.
John: And there was this total...
John: retro 60s the 60s are gonna make the 90s look like the to the 2010s it was you had it was 88 let's see no it might have been 89 when you had like the harmonic convergence coming remember that was gonna be a big thing oh yeah harmonic convergence more like moronic convergence
John: The Bhagwan Shri Rajneesh is out there Bhagwan-ing.
John: You got Waco.
John: You got your Bhagwan's Bhagwan-ing.
Merlin: You got your Waco.
Merlin: No, I think it was a little later.
Merlin: But that was a hippie year.
Merlin: Again, I felt kind of mad because I'd been into the hippie stuff a little bit before that, so I thought it was a little bit played.
Merlin: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Well, but it was hippie.
John: It was hippie music, but it was also what year did the Doors movie come out?
John: Oh, with what's his name?
Merlin: Val Kilmer.
Merlin: Doors.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: I'm going to say 1990 is my guess.
Merlin: 1991.
Merlin: 91.
Merlin: Okay.
John: So what was that?
John: Right in there somewhere.
John: Oh my gosh.
John: Oh my gosh.
John: But there was a movie, and this is before the 80s are going to make the 60s look like the 42s.
John: There was a Winona Ryder movie that had Iron Man in it.
Merlin: Oh, it's a transition from like Brat Pack to Love Bites.
Merlin: No, Love Bites, Love's Vulgar.
Merlin: What was her movie with the Love Stinks?
Merlin: Love Stinks.
John: Love Stinks.
John: Love Winona Ryder.
John: But it was a period piece.
John: It was set in 1968.
John: It may have even been called 1968.
Oh.
John: Yes.
John: And it had like a lot of it had a lot of those scenes where somebody's driving a Volkswagen bus and it and the soundtrack is Crosby, Stills and Nash.
John: You know, they're running away from their parents.
Merlin: That's like the official shitty 60s song, you know?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Who likes canned heat?
Merlin: Who comes home from work in the 60s and puts on fucking canned heat?
Merlin: I've never understood that.
John: Well, that was also the era of singles radio.
John: Everybody was buying 45s then, so you didn't have to... I mean, there was AM radio.
John: And all that great 70s music, like Long Cool Woman in a Black Dress.
John: You know, nobody bought a Hollies album, but they bought Hollies singles.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: Movies 1969.
Merlin: 1969 came out in 1980.
Merlin: 1969 is going to make 1988 look like the 42s.
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: You got Robert Downey Jr., Kiefer, Kiefer Sutherland.
Merlin: You got Bruce Dern.
Merlin: Oh, Marriott Hartley.
Merlin: She's a treat.
Merlin: Winona Ryder.
John: 1969, the movie.
John: And so that was that moment where it was like, I am 20 years old and I am celebrating the culture of 20 years ago and everyone's wearing little round glasses and drawing peace signs on their army jackets.
John: World party.
John: World party or Julian Lennon.
John: Yes.
John: And there was like this, it was all
John: It was that feeling that that was the high water mark of the 20th century youth culture and we don't have our own because punk rock had become the de facto youth culture of a tiny fraction of youth and everyone else was just listening to Dead or Alive and sort of no scene around it.
John: But even the cult, even the cult was putting out
John: 60s music and rocking 60s iconography.
Merlin: Can I toss in Tears for Fears, Sowing the Seeds of Love?
Merlin: as a 60s retro don't you think so it's it's basically i mean i've heard the talk about this it was very influenced i watched something a couple this is really quick a week or two ago this amazing recent live performance by tears for fears which are primarily it's the two guys plus band people and they sounded fucking great they sounded so good and i always liked that tune i was and it was very but it was very emblematic of that new psychedelia uh or you know what i mean kind of updated psychedelia feeling
John: The tears for fears is an embarrassing moment for me one of the One of several right that you get that you encounter throughout life and
John: When Tears for Fears was on the radio, I despised it.
John: And partly it was, I think I was picking up that retro psychedelic vibe without really maybe fully grokking where it was coming from.
John: But the two guys had such frowny faces.
John: They were just like so over serious and so like over emotive and just dramatic.
John: um and it was very synth driven stuff and i was i just felt like opposed to it because there was a lot of catchy pop on the radio at the time yeah and and it was also a big period in our lives where your reaction to culture was as much about what you were opposed to talking here about probably like more of songs from the big chair than the hurting you're talking about like the shout era right
John: Well, I mean, the whole... I thought the hurting was really good.
Merlin: I mean, you're right.
John: Once you turn against a band, you turn against them.
John: And because I'd been a huge Flock of Seagulls fan, everybody else turned against them, but I didn't think you could deny those singles.
John: I thought they were so strong that you couldn't futz around with them.
Merlin: When Peter Parker goes to the Homecoming dance in the Spider-Man movie, he walks in there playing a Space Age Love song.
Merlin: great song i mean that's not a cultural reference point for me but yes i get that you saw a spider-man movie once but listen the one that just came out and made 117 million dollars and it's probably the best marvel movie ever made yeah that's the one i'm talking about you're gonna want to see it oh did they reboot spider-man oh thank goodness no origin story there's no origin story in it it goes straight to the meat and he's played by an actual kid it's really nice oh that is also there's a nice scene with uh save it for later
John: Which is a nice song.
John: That's a good song.
John: You know, Save It For Later and Harvey Dangerous Flagpole Sitter, same exact song.
John: But didn't they also cover Save It For Later?
John: Well, they did because I think somebody said, hey, your song is the same as that song.
John: And then they covered it as a kind of like wah-wah.
John: And then those guys, the Save It For Later dudes, the popster UK.
John: English beat.
John: Thank you.
John: The beat.
John: They became big Harvey Danger fans, and whenever the English beat was in town, they would call Sean, and Sean would jump up with them and do Save It For Later.
John: Wow.
John: That's really complicated.
John: That's a complicated anecdote.
John: And then Harvey Danger would do a medley of the two songs.
John: But what got more complicated was English beat singer guy, Blondie.
John: Blondie, we call him.
John: According to Sean...
John: He started calling him too much.
Merlin: Hey, Sean, you up?
John: Exactly.
Merlin: Until Sean was like, hey, sorry, I can't hang out, man.
Merlin: I've got other stuff going on.
Merlin: That's nice to hear.
Merlin: That's nice to hear.
Merlin: Is it Dave Wakeling?
John: the other guy was ranking roger i remember ranking roger yep because they were before the english beat uk they were in uh they had that earlier band that was even uh that was like a different no no no no you're reversing it the general public and before general public was the oh oh okay okay that's what it is general you know what a racist i am
Merlin: when I only knew them from having their singles collection, what is Beat, which is a great singles collection, I thought the black guy was a singer.
Merlin: How about that?
Merlin: How's that for racism?
Merlin: There it is.
Merlin: There it is.
Merlin: You're going to think so.
Merlin: Dave Wakeling.
Merlin: Oh, he looks good.
Merlin: He's got a good haircut.
John: But back to Tears for Fears.
Merlin: Oh, I see.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Later on, and I'm talking about 2002, my good friend, the Mike Squires,
John: That we talk about periodically.
John: Mike had some remarks recently.
John: He's a problematic figure.
John: Oh, did he have remarks recently?
John: What did Mike Squires have to say?
John: You can look it up.
John: Mike Squires has got a lot to say because Mike is too dumb to know.
John: Oh, no, no, no.
John: Stop, stop.
John: No, no, no.
Merlin: It's going to be East Coast, West Coast all over again.
Merlin: It has to stop.
John: Here's what happened.
John: I was at Mike's house in Portland, Oregon.
John: I don't know why.
John: I probably ran out of gas or something, and he was the only guy I knew nearby that had a car.
John: I was there, and Mike has an incredible vinyl collection that he curates, and it is really formidable, this collection of vinyl.
John: That's cool.
John: He cares.
John: And he put on Tears for Fears.
John: The Hurting.
John: And he said, hey, dummy, this is a great album.
John: And I said, nah, nah.
John: I don't like them.
John: And he said, shut up and listen.
John: And he played it.
John: and it's undeniable a classic pop album they're really really good songs and the performance is very distinctive the musicianship is very high and and uh as i listened to the record i had gradually their frowny faces their dumb british frowny faces went out of my head yeah and was replaced by this and you know like what ended up being an incredible appreciation of them so now
John: You know, it was a late-in-life epiphany.
John: And now I feel like, oh, I should have liked them all along.
John: I like them now a lot.
John: When their music comes on, I'm always excited.
John: And it was because that big, you know, oaf, Mike Squires, had to give me an education, which I didn't like getting from him, of all people.
John: Oh, it's kind of a double for you.
John: Yeah, but you know, he's served me a bunch of times.
John: That's one of the reasons that...
Merlin: One of the reasons history will record him in a ding-a-ling.
Merlin: History's greatest ding-a-ling.
Merlin: Scritti Politti, another one.
Merlin: There's another band, what's the one I'm thinking of, that got better every album?
Merlin: Scritti Politti was good, but then there was the one that, what was the band that had an 80s hit that we all kind of go, ha ha ha, 80s hit, but then they had better album after better album in the late 80s and early 90s.
Merlin: I'm spacing on it right now.
Merlin: But you know, it's funny, it's like a sweep-up, right?
Merlin: You get some innocent civilians, and
Merlin: get swept up in the dragnet.
Merlin: And I think that's the case.
Merlin: I mean, we've all certainly written off certain songs or bands because you go, oh, it's that thing.
Merlin: And I think that happened with Tears for Fears, but also Songs from the Big Chair really got, the singles from that got really overplayed to where I would dread hearing the beginning of Everybody Wants to Rule the World.
John: yeah absolutely although there were singles from that era that got over over overplayed that i never got tired of so there was something to that everybody wants to rule the world that i still have a trouble i still have trouble listening to that song it was just like jammed down my throat at the right it was such a prom theme you know it was just like prom whereas i will listen to that don henley song about the
John: about central america whatever the fuck that was uh all she wants to do is the greeks don't want no freaks oh sure right right right right right all she wants to do is dance i'll listen to that all day and that was on the radio constantly and that is a by all you know by all standards pretty bad
John: But when that comes on, I'm like, yeah, all right, I'll take it.
Merlin: Can I toss out a thought technology in your direction?
Merlin: I don't want or need an answer now, but it's something I've just been thinking about in the back of my mind for a while, especially since we've done this show and talked so much about cocaine in music.
Merlin: You don't have to answer this now, but I wonder if you were to cast your mind back over the years without knowing specifics necessarily, how much...
Merlin: do you think you would be able to go back and identify what songs are fairly legitimate zeitgeist hits which songs got pretty puffed up because of the way songs were recorded before sound scan would you be able to identify which songs were so improbably popular because of payola or similar do you think you could do that would you be able to go back and go oh that's why that's why starship was so popular
John: Improbably because of cocaine, you're saying?
Merlin: Well, I mean, on the one hand, okay, so I'm trying to get at these three axes, where, like, on the one hand, there's, like, you take a song like what?
Merlin: Sugar Sugar by the Archies.
Merlin: Like, that's a legitimately catchy pop song, and you can understand why that would be a really popular song.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: There are others where, I mean, and this is a story that's been told many times, when they flipped the switch to sound scan, a lot of stuff changed.
Merlin: Because I'm not telling you this, I'm telling anybody in our audience, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but basically it used to be pretty much reporting and self-reporting.
Merlin: There was a number of records shipped, and then they would call around, and you would call the record store.
Merlin: Frequently the record store would say, oh yeah, you know what's popular?
Merlin: This one album we have way too many copies of and need to move.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: So there'll be this on the second level.
Merlin: You got the dicey recording in the sound scam basically brought in this idea of like, OK, here's the reports on what people actually bought with money in a record store this week, which was revolutionary because what do we discover?
Merlin: Hey, people like hip hop and people like country and country owned the charts for years after that.
Merlin: Once they changed the way it was the codex measured everything.
John: Right.
John: And hip hop, hip hop, too.
John: Right.
John: Hip hop took over from there.
Merlin: Absolutely.
Merlin: And like, I think it probably helped a lot to realize, wow, this stuff actually is really selling very well.
Merlin: And it's getting at that point was, of course, getting a little poppier.
Merlin: But I mean, I wonder, I just sometimes wonder, like, you know, it's a little bit a little bit Alex Jones conspiracy theory stuff here.
Merlin: But like, I wonder, like, if with that particular lens, if you think you could go back and go like, oh, that explains why we heard so much.
Merlin: Like Def Leppard.
Merlin: I don't like Def Leppard.
Merlin: I, you know, I'm sorry.
Merlin: I don't like post photograph Def Leppard so much, but I understand why they're popular.
Merlin: It was like, you know, it was poppy, you know, uh, that one guy, uh, Shania Twain's ex, you know, that guy made some pop.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Do you think you could go back?
Merlin: Would you be able to eyeball it and know which ones were pretty much straight up?
Merlin: Like here's some cocaine play this album.
John: I feel like the other thing in there is that, again, because it was hard to know whose culture we were dealing with at that time.
John: Because the baby boomers, like do you remember the TV show 30-something?
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Right.
John: The baby boomers were in their mid 30s, which now we think of because you and I are in our 40s or, you know, around our 40s, you know.
John: We look at 34-year-olds and say, I mean, 34, you're just, like, getting started.
John: You're just a child.
John: You're only just getting normal right now.
John: Come on, 34.
John: Like, finally, you're kicking into gear, right?
John: When you're 29, you think you know anything.
John: But by 34, you're like, okay.
John: Yeah.
John: And at the time, right, we were teenagers.
John: 34-year-olds seemed like they were, you know, like...
John: Might as well give up.
John: I mean, you've already transitioned into irrelevant adulthood.
John: But that was the baby boomers then.
John: And they were so much larger a generation than we were that they were still shoving...
John: heard it through the grapevine down our throats.
John: Right.
Merlin: They were still a predominant market force.
John: Well, and they were the most self-congratulatory generation of all time.
John: And the most like self, you know, just like soaking in their own what turns out to be fairly recent past.
John: And so what you have is Jefferson Airplane turning into Jefferson Starship who actually had
John: A couple of pretty good hits in the late 70s.
John: Oh, gosh, yes.
John: You know, pretty good rock songs.
John: And then they switch over to Jefferson, or they switch over to Starship.
John: Right.
John: And they get two or three, two, I think, just gimme hits.
Right.
John: where it's like they've earned it somehow.
John: They are still around.
Merlin: Grace Jones, in that oral history of We Built This City, Grace Jones had basically said, I want to make some money.
Merlin: I want to be able to retire.
Merlin: Whatever it takes, I would like a giant, giant hit, please and thank you.
John: And what they had then was the pre-sound scan.
John: They had the goodwill and the relationships with the music business people.
John: who, again, were all pre-40 years old, and they could just say, here's our new record, make it a hit.
John: And the president of the record company had probably made his bones to Jefferson Airplane.
John: And you look at that 80s heart record record,
John: Uh, where heart was like incredible band throughout the seventies.
John: And then in the eighties, it was just like, what are you doing?
John: Stop, please don't do that.
John: And I love those girls.
John: And I, I know, you know, I'm really good friends with one of the women that, that co-wrote some of their songs.
John: who's a Seattle luminary and Grammy-winning artist.
John: Linda, what's her name?
John: One of my favorite.
John: No, no, no, no.
John: Not Linda, what's her name?
John: Okay.
John: She didn't co-write the big 70s hits, but she was a friend and a co-writer with them.
John: Because they're based in Seattle, right?
John: Yeah, yeah, Seattle, man.
John: And I adore them, but during the era, those...
John: Those mid-80s tunes.
John: You're talking about like these dreams?
John: Yeah, it was just like a knife in my heart.
John: No pun intended.
John: And then you get all the members of the Eagles and all the members of Genesis and all the members of... And you get the Rolling Stones solo records.
John: And it was just like payday for all these people that had made...
John: made their epaulets throughout the 70s that they were still in charge of the culture.
John: There were no upstarts.
John: And punk rock was kept out for the most part.
John: I mean, New Wave was gathered together and almost immediately defanged and turned into bubblegum music.
John: But that's what I account for.
John: And I think cocaine is...
John: accessory to it because that whole generation also had the incredible bad cocaine judgment.
John: I mean, think about the Eric Clapton hits of the 80s.
John: And then that weird 80s blues revival with
John: bb king suddenly being a huge star and robert cray and all this stuff of course you got the you got the stevie ray vaughn circa 8045 yeah and stevie ray is just he's just playing texas hendrix those are good albums i mean they're killer albums yeah killer blues rock albums but you're right you're right on zz top you got your buddies in zz top kind of uh we can't we can't talk about southern rock oh no no i'm not talking about any of these people in that case but no you're right but like
Merlin: Yeah, Clapton had the—he did that new version, the slow version of After Midnight.
Merlin: He did—what was his other big stuff?
Merlin: You're right, though.
Merlin: Yeah, you're right.
Merlin: You're right, though.
Merlin: Everybody was—cashing in is the wrong word because it doesn't totally capture it.
Merlin: It was more like some credibility bond had matured, and lots of people were cashing in bits of their credibility bond at that point.
Merlin: Do you know what I mean?
John: Yeah, absolutely.
John: And one of the ones that I would make an exception for is Permanent Vacation by Aerosmith, which was Aerosmith's comeback record post-Run DMC.
John: Run DMC pulled Aerosmith out of the trash bin of history.
Merlin: What an amazing how-did-this-ever-happen story, when you really think about it.
John: Run DMC gave us such an education in the history of hip-hop by doing that.
John: This is how we did it.
John: We took these records that had these cool breaks.
John: We just looped them.
John: And wrapped over them.
John: So that's how it started.
John: So anyway, thanks a lot.
John: We're going to give this little like we're going to throw this bone to Aerosmith who have been I mean, there's a there's a great story in that Aerosmith autobiography of Joey Wanaka or whatever, where he's driving his Ferrari on the highway on like, you know, interstate.
John: uh 95 or something like that and um and he's just like so drugged out he's not paying attention and a semi truck stops on the highway in front of him and he just drives the ferrari right up underneath that's right up underneath the semi i guess he has time that's time to duck and there was some scene in the in the recording studio with those guys where
John: Where somebody was shooting a crossbow like in the studio.
John: I mean, those guys should have there's not a single member of Aerosmith that should be alive.
John: And then they came out with that with permanent vacation, which.
John: Although it features the garbage track, dudes, dude looks like a lady.
John: It was a killer record.
John: It had killer tunes on it.
Merlin: Is that also like the beginning of the Alicia Silverstone videos era?
John: That came later.
John: Permanent Vacation.
John: Permanent Vacation was the tour that Guns N' Roses opened for Aerosmith.
John: Really?
Merlin: I think also, didn't that Linda, what's her name, write some of those for Permanent Vacation?
Merlin: I think that was her jam, too.
Merlin: Oh, come on.
John: Is that right?
Merlin: Linda, what's her name?
John: It's a non-blonde lady, right?
John: Didn't she write?
John: No, that has to be later.
John: Poor non-blonde lady came later.
Merlin: Okay, so you got hearts down time.
Merlin: Dude looks like a lady.
Merlin: Ragdoll.
Merlin: Yeah, see, that's a good song.
John: 1989 you got pump oh look at that looks like the truck's having intercourse look at that yeah and i was in europe when pump came out and i'd been a permanent vacation fan i remember walking down the streets of some little town and there was a record store and prominently featured in the window was the record cover of pump their new album which they had raced out you know uh
John: Pretty quickly after permanent vacation.
John: And I felt that weird feeling you used to get in Europe when you would see something American and feel a kinship with it immediately.
John: Because Europeans still had mostly positive feelings about America.
John: And there would be something in the window of a shop that was like, the new record from American Band.
John: Aerosmith?
John: And I was like, that's right.
John: That's right.
John: How do you like us now, Frenchies?
John: Yeah, listening to Aerosmith, I bet.
Merlin: No, I agree.
Merlin: Sorry.
Merlin: I'm looking at pictures of Aerosmith and Run DMC.
Merlin: I'm a little bit distracted.
Merlin: That was a very, very strange time.
Merlin: So I don't know.
Merlin: I'm not saying I could pick it out.
Merlin: But, you know, it's just it's another data point is all I'm saying.
John: It's a very confusing time, and I think we might be too close to it to properly analyze it, because every time you think you've got the 80s by the nose, then, you know, then somebody throws out some new thing where it's like, oh, well, what do you have to say about Metallica?
John: And then you're like, oh, fuck, Metallica, how does that, where does that fit into anything?
John: That first, the first two, you know, like, ride the lightning.
John: How do you account for that?
John: so it's um yeah it's it's a little bit of a what was that what was it what was that band i'm trying to remember the band the very late 80s band where the singer was so cokey just frenetic high energy dancey music and the singer had like colored dreads that were he was a white guy colored dreads piled up on top of his head and he was dancing around just
John: flailing waving his arms it was the beginning of that era where music videos happened on a completely white background oh it's like the kind of music that would become like yeah unbelievable like would become that kind of music yeah that stuff or pre delight uh like dance music but but done as though it's rock
John: uh it's not jamiroquai that's later on no that's later on big hat music there was that music from the big hat do you remember the there was that video of a band like maybe they even had two hits or he had two hits
John: It was a guy that wore his hat down over his face and you could never see his face because he had his hat down over his eyes.
John: It was the type of thing.
John: And the cover of his record was just the bottom of his tennis shoes.
John: And you could kind of see him in the background.
John: I missed a lot of this stuff.
John: It really appeals to the English, like an English pop music fan.
John: The small device of like, this guy wears his hat down over his eyes.
John: And it's like, he's the hit of the summer.
John: How does the British pop market
John: understand itself.
John: How can you look yourselves in the eye?
Merlin: What was the band with the chainsaw?
Merlin: What was that?
Merlin: The band with the chainsaw?
Merlin: The band where the guy would play chainsaws.
Merlin: He would do like a little fifth bend with a chainsaw.
Merlin: What was that?
Merlin: What was that band?
Merlin: Let's ask Google.
Merlin: Band with chainsaw.
Merlin: Don't overthink it.
John: Jackal.
John: Jackal.
John: Oh, Jackal.
John: J-A-C-K-Y-L.
John: Jackal.
John: Where you wonder, are they Christian?
Merlin: Ah, yes.
John: My friend here in Seattle who co-wrote Heart Songs did not write the early 70s ones, but did, I'm now researching, did co-write Straight On.
John: No, really?
John: Coming Straight On for you.
John: Yeah, right.
John: Even it up.
John: These are killer, killer late 70s heart tunes.
John: Right.
John: You want to think it's all Barracuda, but then you like heart kept it coming.
John: Yeah.
John: And then Dog and Butterfly, which was a song that.
John: uh that ken stringfellow and i covered on the uh ken stringfellow tour where the long winters were his backing band oh i was i was at that yeah so i met scott miller that night i don't know if i mentioned that to you you met scott miller that night i probably never mentioned it to you right right so so there were there were several phases of heart the several phases of heart
John: But, oh, the 80s Hart.
John: And then Hart brought it back, of course, by the grunge era.
John: I think Hart saw themselves, or they saw grunge in themselves, not least because Cameron Crowe made the Nancy Wilson crossover.
Merlin: Yeah, so she was doing soundtracks and songs for his films a lot, right?
John: That is a thing.
John: That is a thing.
John: That is a thing.
John: Yeah, no, I'm not criticizing.
John: I'm just saying.
John: No, no, no.
John: If I could do soundtracks for Cameron Crowe films, I would.
John: I heard, I heard that, and you know, when you think about it, like Ann Wilson was 30 years old in 1990.
Hmm.
John: What?
John: Is that right?
John: No, she's got to be older than that.
John: Oh, she's 40 years old.
John: 40 years old.
John: But still.
John: Yeah.
John: I mean, 40 seems young now.
Merlin: She's a good deal older than Cameron, right?
Merlin: Well, I was talking about Anne.
Merlin: Oh, sorry.
John: No, I'm lost.
Merlin: Keep looking at these pictures of Harry Smith and Wendy MC.
John: I know.
John: We're both looking at the internet, which makes for a great podcast.
John: Wow.
John: I heard through the grapevine that Cameron Crowe was a fan of the long winter.
Merlin: Oh, I feel like you might have mentioned this.
Merlin: You were waiting for a call for a long time, weren't you?
John: This is one of these grapevine situations where you're like, how do I verify that?
John: Right.
John: Who do I call to say, hey,
John: I hear you're a fan of the band.
John: I'm also a fan of you.
John: Big movie director whose movies I like.
John: Big fan.
John: Big fan.
Merlin: All the great shows.
Merlin: Joel McHale.
Merlin: Joel McHale.
John: Yeah, Joel McHale.
John: Yeah, you know him.
John: Like one time we played in New York City and after the show, somebody said, oh, A.C.
John: Newman was here.
John: I was like AC Newman was at a long winter show.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: You know, big fan of the band.
John: Big fan.
John: And so then I'm like, oh, shit.
John: AC Newman's a big fan of the band.
John: Yeah.
John: And so the next time I saw him.
Merlin: That's a big deal.
Merlin: I mean, when you're like, you know, it's like a Scott Miller type situation.
Merlin: Like when there's somebody who's like your special, like, you know, I don't be creepy about it, but like, you know, Zupano and New Pornographers were like, man, that was that was my jam.
John: Yeah, sure.
John: I mean, he's one of the great pop songwriters of our generation.
Merlin: He's got that kind of like at least maybe less so now that, you know, they've kind of the people know them and stuff.
Merlin: But like or like Ted Leo, for that matter, where it's stuff where you're like, no, but like that's my special secret band.
Merlin: And like to even the inkling that they might even know who you are.
Merlin: Such a big deal.
Merlin: That's so exciting.
John: Well, and so every time I would see him at, like, festivals or something like that, I would kind of roll up on him.
Merlin: Like, hey, what's up?
Merlin: And he is not a roll-up kind of guy.
Merlin: What's up, AC?
Merlin: How's it going, Carl?
Merlin: Hey, Carl, I know your real name.
Merlin: Going through changes.
Merlin: Ruffle his hair.
Merlin: Like, ruffle, ruffle, ruffle.
John: What's up?
John: What's up, little guy?
John: and he i was like a very introverted guy or whatever super you know he'd always have a super smile on his face but i'd be like remember me guy from the long winters that you saw that you were at our show you were at our show yeah and
John: was like okay you know he was always really friendly and we had we used to have fun on the internet together but you know but i definitely like feel like i kind of was so glad that he was at that show what an awkward question john there should be a way to ask like you know and this would have gotten you past so many so many both of us got us past so many all the great shows moments there should be some kind of a code word where you just go and they're
John: am i wrong did you have any idea who i am like this is gonna be really awkward for for for six minutes to 14 years if we don't get this settled well this was always my thing with doug marsh i would roll up on him at every single event and doug marsh is as introverted as a fucking clam is he really i didn't know that oh yeah he opens his show a little bit and you're like hello and he squirts salt water slams shut
John: And every time I'd see him, I'd go up and I'd be like, hi, it's me again, John Roderick.
John: And love your band, love your stuff.
John: And he would just be like, squirt, slam.
Merlin: He'd give you the clam slam.
Merlin: Yeah, the clam slam.
John: And after a while, I was like, all right.
John: I'm not even going to try.
John: You know, if I'm standing next to him at a buffet backstage somewhere and he takes a strawberry, maybe I'll take a strawberry.
John: But I'm not going to say I'm not going to be like, hey, look at us, two strawberry loving guys.
John: The strawberry boys.
John: We should do a record together.
John: But this camera.
John: The Cameron Crowe thing, I actually went to my people, various people, publicist, agent, you know, and I was like, hey, the word on the street, and I cannot tell you where this word came from.
John: At the time, I probably could have, but now I have no recollection.
John: But Cameron Crowe is a fan of The Long Winters, so you guys do your job and figure out how to get Cameron Crowe to do something.
John: where he loves me publicly.
John: And my people were just like, huh, what?
John: We don't have his phone number.
John: And it's really a thing in that situation.
John: We don't really have a workflow for this particular kind of thing.
John: Yeah, just like, I'll call his people.
John: Hey, hi, this is Joe Publicist.
John: And they're in the same situation.
John: Can you say a way you can find out from Cameron if he's ever heard of John Roderick?
John: Just don't make a big deal out of it.
John: Yeah.
John: Do you like me?
John: Yes or no.
John: Check one.
John: Exactly.
John: And, you know, it still is possible that one day he'll make one of those classic Cameron Crowe films and there'll be a long winter song in it.
John: And I'll be like, validated.
John: Life validation.
Merlin: The song Lumberjack was released by Jackal, J-A-C-K-Y-L in 1991.
Merlin: Here's some of the lyrics.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
Merlin: Was that a rat reference?
Merlin: Was that a little, like, tap a little rat reference there?
Merlin: They go round and round.
Merlin: I'm a lumberjack baby.
Merlin: I'm a lumberjack baby.
Merlin: I'm going to cut you down to size.
Merlin: I'm a lumberjack baby.
Merlin: And you're the one that gets my prize.
Merlin: When you hear my motor running, you know I surely be copping a rise.
Merlin: So I'm going to crank it up and cut it down.
John: No, none of that.
John: I have an interesting story about that.
John: Jackals, the lumberjack?
John: A little bit, yeah.
John: So I took my daughter to a choir class, which is like little girl choir.
John: Apparently at the level of choir, the genders are really separated still.
John: Because there is girl choir, and I have no idea whether there is boy choir because I have a little girl and you are not given access to boy choir.
John: And there are no boys at all at girl choir.
John: Not only no little boys, but also there are no boys in the form of adult peoples waiting in the hall even.
John: It's like a very mom-daughter kind of culture.
John: It's like some kind of halal situation.
John: They got a whole separate building.
John: If there is a boy choir, it ain't in here.
John: I don't know where they are, and I don't know where their concerts are.
John: I have no idea whether they even exist.
John: Okay, got it.
John: But I said, you know, I said, I have a little girl.
John: I want her to go to choir, obviously, for obvious reasons.
John: I went to choir, and choir is important.
Okay.
John: And so I'm the dad at choir who's standing in the hall listening to them, you know, sing the ABC song because they're little girls and they, you know, not a single one of them can carry a tune.
John: And so I'm out in the hall and I'm talking to the other moms.
John: And we're, you know, talking mom stuff.
John: And the choir, the little girl choir that's happening, is happening in one of what you would describe as Seattle's more affluent yet still downtown neighborhoods.
John: It's not one of the affluent neighborhoods where people have moved out to the suburbs and have just abandoned all hope.
John: It's the downtown neighborhood where people are buying 1902 houses with eight bedrooms in them and God knows what, doing what with them.
John: There are two bedrooms that are just full of junky kids' toys because nobody needs an eight-bedroom house.
John: You get a gift-wrapping room.
John: You get a mud room.
John: That's right.
John: This is my office, and that's Daddy's office, and never come into my office.
John: You can come into my office, but not my den.
John: Right.
John: Exactly.
John: Don't go into Daddy's library.
John: And it's because one or both of them work at either Microsoft or Amazon, maybe Starbucks, and they just have more money than they know what to do with.
John: But they want to retain their downtown-ness, so they buy a house in town.
John: Anyway, so I'm talking – and there are a lot of people like that that meet that criteria at the playground that's around my daughter's school because the school and the neighborhood –
John: Where my daughter's school is it either the people that live there are either University of Washington professors and it's the class.
John: It's the traditional neighborhood of that.
John: Or people that that have a very short commute to the Microsoft campus, but still live in town anyway.
John: So I'm talking to the moms.
John: And one of them says, you know, one of them kind of has this like East Coast accent.
John: And we get talking and she's like, well, yeah, you know, I moved out here, you know, sort of in the 90s.
John: And, you know, and now we live in this big house and I kind of, you know, got this little girl and mom, I'm momming it up.
John: And I'm like, I'm momming it up, too.
John: And I was here in the early 90s, like, did you move here for grunge?
John: And she said, grunge.
John: Grunge.
John: I hated grunge and I was like you hated grunge you and I are the same age and you were in Seattle in 1991 what the hell were you doing here we didn't allow 22 year olds to come here who hated grunge why would you come here and she her face lit up and she said I was
John: i'm from philly and i was part of the new jersey hair metal scene of the late 80s and i was like say what and i pulled up a like a church pew and i was like continue
John: I sat down and, you know, and she is not rocking any of that now.
John: She's rocking like she's rocking full on.
John: Yeah.
John: Hellified.
John: Rich mom thing.
John: And she but all of a sudden her face is transformed.
John: And she was like, you know, like I was a high school dropout from my inner city Philly neighborhood.
John: And we would go over to to Trenton.
John: And then eventually I hooked up with the guys in Warrant or whatever.
John: She listed all these bands and I recognized them all.
Merlin: It suddenly occurred to you that these bands sold millions of albums and probably there were hundreds of people doing what she did.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: And but all of a sudden I'm looking at her and I'm just like, it's one of those things where you look at a you look at kind of a holographic overlay of some historic.
John: You look at the thing and then you look at the holographic overlay of it and you're like, holy shit, that's what before they tore all the buildings down.
John: And I see her with hair, this poodle hair that's like foot and a half high and spandex and
John: Like hanging out with these these guys with the pointy guitars.
John: And I was like, Jesus Christ, I need to know all about this.
John: Yes.
John: And she said, I, you know, I was part of that scene and we were hardcore.
Merlin: She pulls out a cigarette.
Merlin: Warrant.
Merlin: That's a name I haven't heard.
John: Yeah.
John: Right, and all of a sudden her heels get spikier, and her fingernails get larger, and she's smoking them more.
John: And we're talking about the time, you know, that we're talking about like Bon Jovi era, but just slightly post-Bon Jovi's big fame when everybody in New Jersey was a poodle metal guy.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: And she says, we lived this incredible life.
John: It was a fantastic moment in history from 85 to 90.
John: And I was tending bar.
John: And I hadn't even graduated from high school.
John: And we were playing metal.
John: And we were partying.
John: And then grunge.
John: And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
John: This is where my story picks up.
John: Let me make this connection.
John: Let me feel this.
John: Let me feel this moment.
John: Let me feel your anger and frustration because I've only read about this in magazines.
John: You were there and this was not L.A.
John: Sunset Strip.
John: This was the other one, the Stone Pony.
John: In fucking like sewer kill New Jersey.
John: Right.
John: And she said, I realized that my life was like a dead end.
John: And I went on a road trip to Princeton and...
John: met somebody in a record store and I was like, how do you guys, what does one have to do in life to live in a place with trees?
John: And the person at Princeton was like, well, you go to college and then you can live where there are trees.
John: And she was like, I had never seen a tree ever.
John: Let alone a bunch of trees altogether where it blocked the sun and was shady and cool.
John: And she said she had this incredible moment where she where she said, I'm going to go to college.
John: And she did.
John: And she moved to Washington with her already feeling like she was too grown up.
John: For rock and roll.
John: Wow.
John: And like went to university, became a computer person, worked in computers, retired, like met her husband who had, you know, had gone to Cambridge or whatever and had 25 degrees in computer science.
John: And now they live in this beautiful home.
John: And her story was one of these stories that was just going to walk past me on 15th Avenue.
John: I was going to be up there looking for looking for a shade grown coffee beverage that had been cold brewed somewhere.
John: And she was going to be walking by with some bag of organic things.
John: on her way somewhere else and we would just be two ships passing in the night and i would see her and just be like oh what's up you know rich mom from the neighborhood and she would say like she would pass me and not even notice me because i just because i look like somebody that's delivering things and yet here it was like history in the making so i went over to her house
John: And she pulled out her photo album.
John: You're kidding.
John: Did she invite you?
John: No, no.
John: I went over and peered in the window.
John: It's me, John.
John: Hi, remember me from Girls Choir?
John: I just wanted to see your living room.
John: Big fan.
John: You've got really great furniture.
John: I like your hair like that.
John: No, she was like, come over and see my shit.
John: And so she pulls out this photo album, and it's like she's laying across the hood of a Camaro.
John: Oh, God.
John: And Warren D. Cucurillo or whatever, standing there twirling drumsticks.
John: And you're just like, what am I looking at?
John: This is something that I never thought that I would be so close to.
John: in some ways what i regard as the enemy and so she she's got a daughter approximately your daughter's age yeah so interesting yeah yeah and yeah right and she's she has like that this is all these these photo albums are like in the attic this is her past that that she never talks about never gets to talk about
John: both because I don't think anybody in her circles are interested and it's just not relevant.
John: It's not relevant to what she's doing now.
John: But I, you know, as soon as I dragged that church pew over and was like, I sat down and I was like, you tell me right now everything.
John: And she was like, wow, really?
John: And the more she talked, the more I was like, yes, more, more, more.
John: Tell me everything.
John: Tell me about your culture.
John: Tell me about your way.
John: And, you know, the streets of Philadelphia, like, this is all just stuff that exists in a mythological context to me.
Merlin: Well, it's like, it's almost like something like Quadrophenia, or I'm thinking of, like, that Twisted Sister documentary, which is really surprisingly good.
Merlin: And, like, you realize there's this entire, like, you know, just because you haven't thought about it or it's not your thing, like, one may not realize there was an incredibly rich and nuanced and, like, potentially very subtle subculture going around about this thing.
Yeah.
John: Well, Heavy Metal Parking Lot is what it is.
John: Right?
John: She was Heavy Metal Parking Lot.
John: And we watched that film as though it was a message beamed from outer space.
Merlin: That's what it felt like.
Merlin: Yeah, this is real.
Merlin: Was it a rat concert?
Merlin: It's a rat concert, right?
Merlin: No, Judas Priest.
Merlin: Oh, of course, Judas Priest.
Merlin: Why did I think it was rat?
John: Was rat opening for them, maybe?
John: Maybe.
John: You know, the first rock concert I ever saw...
John: was Dio with Dockin.
John: Wow.
John: And I always put Dockin and Rat.
John: I feel like they were contemporaries, and I feel like they were very much more New Jersey than they were L.A.
John: Although I may be wrong.
Merlin: Rhymes with Rockin.
Merlin: I saw Rat open for Billy Squire in 1984.
John: And that was with Billy Squire.
John: It's like the Motions in Motion era.
Merlin: That was pre-Ripped Pink Tank.
Merlin: I think it was Rock Me Tonight, probably.
Merlin: My girlfriend, that was her jam.
Merlin: Let me put it frankly.
Merlin: She was very sexually attracted to Billy Squire.
Merlin: She liked the dancing around in that video.
Merlin: She liked it a lot.
John: I'm going here to rat and I see that
John: Looking at rats, looking just at the search records, it appears that I have already clicked on rats Wikipedia entry recently enough that it's a different color of purple.
Merlin: Okay, you tossed out Warren Cucurillo, you tossed out George Lynch.
Merlin: Was George Lynch in Dokken?
Merlin: I know he's in Dokken.
Merlin: Was he in rat at one point?
John: Well, so here are the members of RAT.
John: George Lynch.
John: And this is what makes me feel like it's a Jersey band.
John: Carlos Cavazzo, Warren Demartini.
John: That's the one.
John: Right?
Merlin: Warren Demartini.
Merlin: Warren Demartini.
John: I mean, they're all part of it.
John: I think he passed.
John: It does say they're from Los Angeles.
John: That's weird.
Merlin: No, that's got to be a typo.
Merlin: They should be from New Jersey.
John: Well, maybe they moved.
John: Maybe they moved.
John: The origins of Rat go back as far as 1973 in Hollywood, so apparently they didn't move.
John: Yeah, there's a reason that guy always wears a bandana.
Merlin: I think he wears the bandana for professional reasons.
John: Well, isn't that true also of the guy from...
John: Who's the guy that has a second career as a reality star with the long blonde hair that always wears a bandana?
John: Oh, Brett Michaels?
John: Brett Michaels.
John: He's poison, right?
John: Yeah.
John: That boy is poison.
John: You've got to wonder what's going on under that.
John: Oh, man.
John: Dawkins from L.A., too.
John: Ron's just rocking.
John: Rocking with Dawkins.
Hmm.
John: The guy from Dokken, George Lynch.
John: George Lynch, he had the tips, remember?
John: Yeah, and that was one of those lower-tier, B-grade metal guitar players that I still liked.
Merlin: Oh, he was great.
Merlin: Paris is burning, breaking the chains.
Merlin: That stuff was great.
John: When I went to see them, he had a sticker on his guitar that said, Ball.
Merlin: Yes please.