Ep. 328: "Inaccurate But True"
Merlin: Hello?
Merlin: Good morning, John.
John: Oh, hello, Merlin.
Merlin: Good morning.
Merlin: How are you?
John: Oh, just dandy, thank you.
John: It's been a minute since we've done the British accent.
John: It has.
Merlin: And how are you?
Merlin: I'm quite well.
Merlin: One would complain, but one would not be listened unto.
Merlin: It's becoming a little bit D&D.
Merlin: God unto thou I do not.
Merlin: Oh, good, good day.
Merlin: I said good day, sir.
Merlin: I say.
Merlin: Stick with an accent, they said.
Merlin: I said I think not.
Merlin: Oh, you might.
Merlin: Roll this twenty-sided die.
Merlin: You scoundrel.
John: Yes.
Yes.
Merlin: How's it going?
John: Sounds like I'm doing a little bit of an Alec Guinness.
John: Alec Guinness.
Merlin: That's a name I haven't heard since the last campaign.
Merlin: He died at the hands of a rowdy drow elf, if memory serves.
Merlin: Oh, drow elf.
Merlin: I don't see color, except in the drow.
Merlin: Nasty type, they.
Merlin: Can we do it for one whole hour?
Merlin: He'd like to pass as a high elf.
Merlin: I can see from the texture and lack of pointiness in his ears.
John: He's a low elf.
John: Introduced to the Elrond.
John: Oh, no, no, no.
Merlin: This isn't how we talk.
Merlin: Rather.
Merlin: It would be rather trying, one thinks.
Merlin: Yes, it would.
Merlin: My daughter was playing with dungeon dice this morning.
Merlin: Hooray!
Merlin: Does she know anything about their powers?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: We talked a lot.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: It's a good time to talk about the maths.
Merlin: Oh, yes.
Merlin: Because you could talk about why a 20-sided die is used so often, because it's real good for doing stuff around 100 in increments of 5.
Merlin: So I asked her, you know, if you need to get 35, what number do you get?
Merlin: And she says 4, and I said, you're bad at math.
Merlin: You throw this saving throw against your 5th grade modest skills.
John: Your armor class has been smitten.
John: We had this exact thing yesterday.
John: I said, Marlo, turn the... I said, child.
John: Yeah, you did.
John: You said, child.
John: I said, child of mine.
John: Happy birthday, by the way.
John: Thank you.
John: I'll pass that on.
John: I said, turn the oven to 350.
John: Universal setting.
John: And she walked over, and the knob has 300.
John: Dot, dot, dot, 400.
John: Okay.
John: And she said, I don't know where 350 is.
John: And I said, well, let's see.
John: Is it between 200 and 300?
John: And she said, no.
John: Idiot.
John: I said, is it between 400 and 500?
John: No.
John: All right.
John: We've narrowed it down.
John: Yeah.
John: She's like, well, there are only three dots here.
John: What do they represent?
John: 10?
John: It's like, well, count by tens from 300 to 400 using those three dots.
John: And she did 310, 320, 330, 400.
John: And I said, hmm.
John: Oh, yeah, I can see.
Merlin: See, yes, yes.
John: It must not be 10.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: And we worked on this.
John: God, how much we take this all for granted.
John: I know.
John: We worked on this problem for so long.
John: I was like, really?
John: 25 seems like a weird number when you think about it.
John: Well, and the thing is, so yes, it's weird.
John: It's an odd number, which confuses her because she's like, well, odd numbers you can't cut in half.
John: And I'm like, well, true.
John: But how are we going to?
John: How are we going to add a zero to this and make it into something you can cut it in half?
John: But also the three dots.
John: And then we die of starvation.
John: I just want to eat.
John: I just want to eat.
John: In the meantime, we like slipped and the oven was 550 degrees and filling the cabin.
John: No, I said, you know, the three dots are not what we're thinking of.
John: Really, we're thinking about the spaces between the three dots.
John: Whoa.
John: Right?
John: Because it's not like dot, dot, dot.
John: It's like 300 space.
Merlin: She's in third grade?
John: She's in second grade.
John: Second grade.
John: Oh, that's a big ask.
John: Well, we're working on it.
John: We were working on it and working on it.
John: We got the paper out.
John: That's kind of a division problem.
John: It is.
John: And she was like, ah, division is like the minus of times.
John: I was like, yes, division is the finest of times.
John: That's inaccurate, but true.
John: Oh, we worked and worked.
John: And at some point I was not able, I knew, you know, in my head I'm like, do not start talking about decimal places.
John: Do not.
John: She's in second grade.
John: No one has asked her to know about those.
John: But I couldn't resist.
John: I was like, look, here's what a decimal point is.
John: Oh, no.
John: And she was like, uh, and I said, the decimal point is just a way of moving.
John: You know how we add zeros to numbers?
John: A decimal point is a way of taking zeros away from numbers.
John: She was like, I'm taking zeros away.
John: And I was like, bear with me.
John: And we finally got to a place where she had done the math and she recognized that the dots were 25s.
Merlin: Really?
John: For real?
John: Yes.
Merlin: Did she kind of back solve, estimate?
John: How did she arrive at that?
John: There was no estimating.
John: We got to the fact that, well, you know, for a while there we were like, we were talking about three times two is six.
John: Three times four is 12.
John: 12.
John: I don't remember why I was talking about that.
John: Three times three is nine.
John: It's a magic number.
John: That's right.
John: Three times eight is 16.
John: Watch this cartoon.
John: Daddy's going to make lunch.
John: Five is 15.
John: Three times four is 12.
John: Three times three is nine.
John: Three times two is six.
John: And three times minus three, of course.
Merlin: Three.
John: That's a magic number.
Merlin: Man and a woman had a little baby.
Merlin: Yes, they did.
Merlin: They had three in the family.
Merlin: And that's a magic number.
Merlin: This episode of Roderick on the Line is brought to you in part by Marine Layer.
Merlin: You can learn more about Marine Layer right now by visiting MarineLayer.com.
Merlin: Once upon a time, okay, it was 2009, two guys set out to make the perfect tea.
Merlin: A tea that felt like an old favorite from day one, perfectly broken in and absurdly soft.
Merlin: Those guys were named Mike and Adam.
Merlin: It took them a year to nail a custom fabric, and once they did, they made their first batch of tees and bought an old VW bus to transport them.
Merlin: It's only broken down like 27 times, so they're feeling good about the investment.
Merlin: Nine years, a few credit cards, and two buses later, they've built a brand around those absurdly soft shirts.
Merlin: And I should mention, they make more than tees.
Merlin: Now, they make Henleys, jackets, pants, sweaters.
Merlin: You get it.
Merlin: It's all designed in the Marine Layer Workshop here in beautiful San Francisco.
Merlin: And it's all really soft.
Merlin: And when they say their stuff is soft, they really mean it.
Merlin: It's not just, oh, this feels nice soft.
Merlin: It's like, holy crap, how did they make this?
Merlin: I'm never taking it off level of soft.
Merlin: That's super soft.
Merlin: Turns out the softest tees are made from trees.
Merlin: Micromodal, found in Marine Layer's signature fabric, is made from recycled beechwood.
Merlin: The pulp production is self-sufficient, which makes their tea sustainable, eco-friendly, and, you guessed it, soft.
Merlin: They make in-between sizes like Marge and Larger for the dudes who just don't conform to standards.
Merlin: Good for them.
Merlin: And their return policy is insanely good.
Merlin: You can return pretty much anything for up to a year, and they stand by their clothes.
Merlin: Plus, they offer free shipping and free returns on all U.S.
Merlin: orders.
Merlin: What I got from Marine Layer, it's called the TOEF Calvary.
Merlin: camping shirt, and it is gorgeous.
Merlin: Heather gray twill, perfect for camping and for life, and that does me just fine.
Merlin: Their site is a breeze to use.
Merlin: You're going to love it.
Merlin: You've got to check them out, marinelayer.com.
Merlin: So right now, for 15% off your first order, you visit marinelayer.com and enter the promo code supertrain at checkout.
Merlin: 15% off your first order.
Merlin: Nothing wrong with that.
Merlin: Our thanks to Marinelayer for supporting Roderick on the Line and all the great shows.
Merlin: You know, it's hard to get that record now.
Merlin: What?
Merlin: Really?
Merlin: I think they pulled it.
Merlin: I think they fully pulled it.
Merlin: Well, you know, Disney bought it.
Merlin: Disney bought Tommy Boy?
Merlin: Oh, you're talking about the record.
Merlin: Oh, shit, dog.
Merlin: I forgot about this.
Merlin: Yes, yes, yes.
Merlin: You were mad about this.
Merlin: Talk about that.
Merlin: I was talking about the great classic.
Merlin: I think everybody – I think at a certain age, you know I think everybody should be given a copy of Come On, Pilgrim by Pixies.
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: A condom and a copy of Come On, Pilgrim.
Merlin: I think it could be argued you should give every kid, whether they want it or not, you should get a copy of Three Feet High and Rising because it's extremely important.
Merlin: I believe it is important.
Merlin: Anyways, all I was saying was, I think, I think, I don't think you can easily, there are places, as you know.
Merlin: Of course.
Merlin: But I don't think, I don't know, I'll research this.
Merlin: But no, you had a thought on this, and this has to do with the Disney Empire building.
Merlin: Tell the listeners what happened.
John: Oh, well, see, this is just a this is a YouTube problem.
John: This is an Internet problem.
John: Merlin, I'm increasingly convinced that we need to break the Internet.
Merlin: Oh, we need to break it.
Merlin: We need to start by just cracking it over our knee into two parts and then just never stop.
John: How do it gets hard and your knee hurts?
John: You keep just cracking it into smaller parts.
John: You have to put it up against a fulcrum and then jump on it.
Merlin: We literally ran into this night before last because sometimes we like to wind down with different YouTube videos.
Merlin: And I don't know.
Merlin: Monty Python used to have a very lively internet presence where they had a channel and they had a bunch of stuff.
Merlin: They had tons of – this is so smart, right?
Merlin: If people want to see your sketches, why don't you put up your sketches?
Merlin: It's so smart.
Merlin: And don't let it just be somebody with Latvian subtitles hard-coded.
Merlin: Like put up your own goddamn videos.
Merlin: I don't know what happened.
Merlin: We wanted to watch The Argument Clinic.
Merlin: And all the ones that I could find, because she has great taste on some things, all we could find was all like, I thought it might be Thai subtitles.
Merlin: I don't know what it was.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: I don't know if they pulled their presents, but it's like, God, just give me the thing.
Merlin: But no, I'm taking off your point.
Merlin: You're right.
Merlin: It should all be broken.
Merlin: We need to just start it.
Merlin: You know, what is it you talk about on Star Trek?
Merlin: It's a Genesis bomb.
Merlin: What is it called?
John: Yeah, Genesis bomb.
Merlin: We need to terraform.
Merlin: Terraform the internet.
John: Thank you.
John: Yes, we do.
John: We need a Gaia bomb for the internet.
Merlin: I wish I didn't agree.
Merlin: I hate the internet so much this week.
Merlin: I told my friends, I hate it so much I taste blood.
John: Oh, no.
Merlin: It's like you try hard to make the people, make the nice people happy, and it's just like, oh, you guys.
John: Nice people happy.
John: I mean, I'm a simple man.
John: Yeah.
John: Right.
John: Right.
John: I scuttle across the.
John: Yeah.
John: You know, I don't have to say it.
Merlin: Is he a great man?
Merlin: He's a great man.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You can't land on a fraction.
Merlin: Even your daughter knows that.
John: But but all I yeah, I just want I just have simple I just have simple needs.
John: And, you know, when the thing is, when we were a kid, you sat down, you turned on the TV.
John: There was a 40 percent chance that you would be watching Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck within an hour about Saturday mornings or any time, frankly.
John: I mean, after school, they were playing.
John: I mean, it was.
John: And the thing is, there were only three channels, only three channels plus UHF.
Merlin: Oh, PBS too.
Merlin: There are four channels.
Merlin: We had ABC, CBS, NBC on the normal dial on the VHF, something HF.
John: Anyway, we had those three.
Merlin: If you flicked over to the other frequency, we had PBS and we had one local affiliate that did show a ton of Dennis the Menace and Star Trek.
Merlin: Ultra high frequency.
Merlin: You're right.
Merlin: But there's a chance that you would just see the cartoons.
Merlin: And then on the Saturday mornings, CBS had In the News and ABC, which I enjoyed.
Merlin: It was very bite-sized.
Merlin: And then ABC, of course, had Schoolhouse Rock.
Merlin: Whether you wanted it or not, you were going to learn what a noun was.
Merlin: Here's a noun.
Merlin: And there's a reason that so many Gen Xers know the preamble to the Constitution and can sing it.
John: Yes, we also know what conjunctions do.
Merlin: Yeah, well, they hook up phrases and clauses.
John: Also, as you recall, we learned the base 12 numerical system, or at least we learned just the little teeny tab of it.
Merlin: A lot of people got a heart on for base 12.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: There's a controversy where a lot of people want base 12, and I've got to learn more about this.
Merlin: Don't you remember Little Six Toes?
John: See that one?
Merlin: I don't remember that one as well.
John: Oh, I think you will if you see it.
John: He flies in on a UFO.
Merlin: Oh, and he's got 12 toes.
John: And he's got 12 toes.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Little 12 toes.
Merlin: Some of them I found quite dolorous.
Merlin: I always thought the figure eight one was a little bit dolorous.
John: Well, you know, the figure eight one, it turns out, it's very beautiful from an adult music standpoint.
John: Yeah.
John: It has a lot of chords.
Merlin: Oh, oh, yeah.
Merlin: I mean, the chorus is really like all great pop songs.
Merlin: You know how it is with a pop song.
Merlin: You get your verses, you get your choruses.
Merlin: If you have any sense, you have a bridge.
Merlin: And in most classic pop music, this is, I mean, where do you begin?
Merlin: It's not just the Pixies.
Merlin: It's not just loud and quiet.
Merlin: There's got to be one part has to have tension and the other part has to have release.
Merlin: Somewhat, yeah.
Merlin: Well, mostly.
John: If you don't have a bridge, you can have a guitar solo, let's be honest.
Merlin: The bridge, we'll set aside the bridge for a second.
Merlin: But in most pop music, I feel like if you really interrogate, you think about a song like Touch and Go by The Cars is the classic example.
Merlin: All I need is what you got.
Merlin: And the verses.
Merlin: And then...
Merlin: You get to the chorus.
Merlin: How's the chorus go?
Merlin: It's a galloping.
Merlin: I know it.
Merlin: With the great Elliot Easton.
Merlin: You got to mix that up a little bit.
Merlin: Now you take a double four figure eight.
Merlin: That one has very dolorous verses.
Merlin: And then a balls out big walk down chorus.
John: Yeah, there it is.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, let me put this one to you.
John: You ready for this?
John: Yeah.
John: Why is three is the magic number not in three four time?
Merlin: If they got a Vince Giraldi or God bless it, a Dave Brubeck, you would have had a classic 3-4.
Merlin: Not talking Viennese.
Merlin: You would have a classic 3-4 waltz.
John: The thing is, they'd have to redo it.
John: But yeah, we were just playing this on the Nerd Cruise.
John: We played three is the magic number live with a rock band, which was very good.
Merlin: You went on the cruise.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: All right.
Merlin: That's awesome.
Merlin: I did.
Merlin: At the last minute, I went.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Okay.
John: All right.
John: Save it for the show.
Merlin: That's awesome.
Merlin: I love that song.
John: Well, and so it came up.
John: Well, there were a couple of bass players.
John: Was there an Amy Mann bass?
John: Amy Mann was in there, but she did not play on this tune.
John: It's got a great bass line.
John: Bass player's name for the show was...
John: It was a man named Chris.
John: And hang on just a second.
John: Is that Jonathan's guy?
John: No.
John: Well, yes-ish.
John: Just recently.
John: Oh, different from the other guy with the accent.
John: So this was the first time I'd ever met him.
John: Okay.
John: And he was just a phenomenal person.
John: bass player, but also like one of those gentle human beings, um, who was, but not gentle, like in a, in like a super passive way of like, Oh, whatever.
John: He was gentle in like a really present way.
John: And so the thing is at first I was a little bit shy or cautious about him and
John: Because, honestly, and I'm a little embarrassed to say it, but he was repping a kind of hippie, like modernist hippie.
Merlin: No, you don't have to say it.
John: It's a red flag.
John: And so I was like, I don't know.
John: Modernist hippie.
John: He's got like a droopy Tama Shanter.
John: Oh.
John: And he's wearing it.
Merlin: Like an old school Springsteen hat?
John: Yeah.
John: Like a big floppy hat?
John: A big floppy hat.
John: Not spring.
John: It's not like a reggae.
John: Okay.
John: But definitely like a big knit hat on a tropical cruise.
John: Okay.
John: And, you know, he had like – maybe one of his shirts was kind of like off the shoulder.
John: There were a lot of things.
John: What a feeling.
John: Like stirrup pants.
John: I was just like, I'm not so sure.
John: I think I dated him in 1983.
John: You know?
John: But his vibe was so kind.
John: And then as I got to know him better, I was like, oh, wait a minute.
John: Like this guy is –
John: Like, like, like really good guy.
John: And, um, and then I felt like a big dum-dum because I was, because I was like judging a man by his hat or whatever.
John: Uh, so, um,
John: i had to you know i had that's off that's a little bit off brand for you in some ways it is because normally i'm just like whatevs and especially on this cruise i was so so so aloha that's how i was making it that's how i was making it work i was just i brought all the aloha that i could in my in my small bag and um
John: And so I was just like, I was like aloha.
John: And then basically he was more aloha than me.
John: And I didn't even recognize it until... But if you hadn't gone to Hawaii, you might not even acknowledge that.
Merlin: Now you acknowledge the greater aloha.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Well, the thing about aloha is it's not a competition.
Merlin: See, here I go again.
Merlin: Yes, you're right.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: There's no like aloha medal.
John: No.
John: And the thing is, when I realized that he had a tremendous amount of aloha, I think if he was sitting here now, I think he would say, there is no greater amount of aloha.
John: I bet you he would say, there's no way to take your aloha and my aloha, set them next to each other, and say one glass of aloha is fuller.
Merlin: No, it's like one plus one equals 45.
John: Right.
Merlin: It's a synergistic aloha.
John: Sure.
John: It's like a man and a woman have a little baby.
John: Yeah.
John: They're in the family.
John: Although on the ship when we played the song, Molly Lewis sang it and she changed the lyrics to say two loving people had a little baby.
John: Oh, OK.
John: That's the culture of Joko Cruz.
Merlin: You don't want to normalize.
Merlin: Paul would have gotten notes about that.
Merlin: Probably.
Merlin: What did we say?
Merlin: We would have canceled Molly Lewis.
Merlin: Everybody knows how problematic she is.
John: She's a real loose cannon.
John: She's way ahead of the curve on that stuff.
John: In fact, there was a little bit of, well, no, I'm not even going to say that backstage there was a little bit of like, really, do we have to do that?
John: But she was right, and she did, because it was her song.
John: That's the thing.
John: She was right because it was her interpretation.
John: Anyway, so the amount of learning I had to do when I realized that this particular gentleman was just a doll, you know?
John: I couldn't spend enough time with him.
John: Um, so, uh, but he also phenomenal, phenomenal bass player, just really just adaptive.
John: He can do anything.
John: So I learned that.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: I learned later.
Merlin: You get a bass player who can play in the pocket and do the thing the song wants to be.
Merlin: And I'm just nothing.
Merlin: It's bass players.
Merlin: But like when you run against one up with somebody who does that, it's like, it's kind of like having an exquisite drummer.
Merlin: It's like, it transforms the performance.
Merlin: Yes.
John: And, and so, you know, at first I would, at first I would have said, say, for instance, just sort of looking at the Tamashanter, I would have made the mistake of saying like, Oh, he's from California or I don't know, or worse.
John: And, um, it's all very confusing and,
John: But he's playing the bass like this because he's from a Grateful Dead tradition, let's say.
John: Because it's finger style and it's deep.
John: And I know a lot of Grateful Dead adjacent musicians.
John: So I was identifying him from that.
John: I was identifying him from the Grateful Dead community where I am maybe not as adjacent to the travelers as I am to the nerds.
John: But I definitely, you know, I've got a shoe and a half over in the dead universe.
John: You were adjacent to the dead people a long time ago.
John: Oh, yeah, a long time ago.
Merlin: Some of our listeners might not remember, you kind of ran with that crowd a little bit for a while.
John: Early 90s, right?
John: Late 80s.
John: Late 80s, I ran with that crowd.
John: I went to a couple of rainbow gatherings, Merlin.
John: Oh, dear.
John: I saw the Grateful Dead.
John: Did you go to the Harmonic Convergence, John?
John: No, I never could quite grasp the music of the spheres.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Here was my problem.
John: I went to, so I saw the dead a half a dozen times with, you know, with the Jare Bear.
John: I saw him with Santana.
John: I saw him with Edie Burkell.
John: I saw him with
Merlin: I didn't see him with Dylan, but I saw... Wait, so was it Tom Petty that opened for Dylan?
Merlin: Wasn't there a... Yeah.
John: There was Dylan in the Dead is what I was thinking of.
John: That was probably a little later.
John: Right, but Tom Petty also was Dylan's band for one tour.
John: Wow.
John: Which is why Traveling Wilbur.
John: Oh, okay, good.
John: Yeah, see, it all fits together.
John: But the problem was I kept showing up to Rainbow Gatherings with a half rack of beer.
Mm-hmm.
John: And the rainbow gathering universe of like, welcome home.
John: Have some vegetarian glop.
John: We think there might be lentils.
John: The vibe there is like, hey, you know, get trippy.
John: Yeah.
John: Trip out and dance with your, you know, like dance like no one's watching or whatever.
John: But it's not about – it's not about –
John: drinking beer and crushing the beer can on your head and like burping as loud as you can.
Merlin: That's seven.
John: It's just not where we're coming from, right?
John: Like nobody brings...
John: Maybe you bring a flask.
Merlin: Yeah, but nobody a juggler at a funeral.
Merlin: It's like we can acknowledge your skills, but could you put your balls away?
John: Yeah, exactly.
John: Exactly.
John: Do not do not whip out another bottle of Jim Beam, right?
John: If you bring one like everybody has a little don't pull out another one.
John: Like what's in that bag?
John: Okay.
John: Oh, right.
John: Right.
John: And that was me.
John: And so so I never quite squared.
John: up with the fact that a big part of why I took LSD was that I could drink all night and the LSD wouldn't let me get too drunk because you can't get that drunk on LSD.
John: It like supersedes alcohol.
Merlin: I'm not sure what would happen to you.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: There's a lot of stuff.
Merlin: Normal things that would happen to you are not going to happen when you're having LSD.
Merlin: You're not just going to take a little nap.
John: What would you do if you actually tried to put those two head to head and just say, which one is going to happen?
John: Which one will win?
John: LSD can't possibly win if I've had four bottles.
Merlin: When does it happen?
Merlin: When do I cross the line?
Merlin: If you imagine a chart, when does this line cross that line?
Merlin: I think that's going to be a pretty hard chart.
Merlin: The other thing is when you have a drug that is going to trump most of the other drugs, you don't always get the same effects that you would if you had, in that case, the alcohol by itself.
Merlin: You might just have weird motor skills now, but still be pretty with it.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: It's hard to predict what that's going to do to you.
Merlin: Yeah, I mean, one time... I imagine there was a time when you were game to figure it out, though.
John: One time, for sure, I... And it was kind of a bad... It was one of the truly bad nights where I... Where I drank a bottle of Jägermeister...
John: and was on a bunch of LSD, and then I got attacked by some guys with axe handles, and they beat me silly.
John: That's how I broke my hands.
John: Oh, Jesus, John.
John: They broke my hands because I was using my hands to protect my head, and they were beating my head with axe handles, and they broke my hands.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
John: And that was Jägermeister and LSD that got me into that scrape.
John: Because as they surrounded me with axe handles and were like, this was during the gay bashing years, and I'm not 100% sure that this wasn't a case of them thinking I was gay and me just full of Jägermeister and LSD.
Merlin: Well, a certain kind of macho guy.
Merlin: It's like the same kind of macho guy that if he can't get laid, he's going to beat somebody up.
Merlin: And in that case, if he can't beat up the person he'd like to beat up, he's happy to beat up somebody that he can beat up with an axe handle.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, yeah.
John: Or who knows?
John: I mean, I was so, uh, I was so bazonka do that.
John: I don't have any, I honestly, I don't know what happened, but I do know that they surrounded me and I did not try to defuse the situation or back down at all.
John: I just kind of was like, Oh, is this what we're doing now?
John: Like I can take you guys on and
John: Then I, it turned out I couldn't cause one of them was behind me.
John: All it takes is one person behind you with a bat, uh, to, to, uh, yeah, to like give you a, you know, fuck you up is what happened.
John: But, uh, uh,
John: I do feel like the combination of drugs in that case was somewhat responsible for me having bad judgment enough.
Merlin: Oh, interesting.
John: Okay.
John: You know, like there, there I was, I didn't, that's probably not where I should have been.
Merlin: Yep.
Merlin: Yep.
Merlin: So we got the oven.
Merlin: Uh, we got math.
Merlin: We've got, uh, Oh, the cruise and the bass player.
John: Yeah.
John: So, so, so Chris, um,
John: what it turned out was not that he was from California.
John: He was not a, uh, he was not a hippie from there.
John: He was from Staten Island, Staten Island, Staten Island.
John: What the hell?
John: Who comes out of Staten Island?
John: And not only that, but, uh, but his, his dad and his uncles owned the Mandolin Brothers music store.
John: Wow.
John: In, um,
John: In like, uh, New York city.
John: So a totally versatile, totally versatile guy, versatile player, kind, kind soul happy to have met him.
John: But I did, did, did go, uh,
John: go on the cruise.
John: Yeah.
John: At the last minute, it was not what I expected.
Merlin: I mean, just, just to touch on this a little bit, we talked a little bit offline where you're, you're thinking like, Oh, I'm not sure if I'll go in this this year.
Merlin: Should I do this?
Merlin: And it sounds like you elected to do it.
John: Yeah, I didn't, I didn't do it.
John: I was not going to do it.
John: And then at the very last minute I was like, Oh, I'm going to do it.
John: Yeah.
John: Uh, just like that.
John: Uh, because I didn't do it last year.
John: And, uh, and I felt like, I don't know.
John: Um,
John: Maybe, you know, maybe the cruise was a phase in my life.
John: And now I've sort of I'm in a different phase in my life.
John: But I went and I went protected by the spirit of Aloha.
John: Wow.
John: And as soon as I arrived, I felt like.
John: Oh, I'm, I'm fine.
John: I'm, uh, I'm good.
John: I'm, uh, I'm, I'm just, I'm Jim Dandy.
John: And so I spent the whole cruise just floating on a magic carpet made out of dreams.
John: And, uh, it was extremely positive experience to be with my friends and to be entertaining people.
John: Um,
John: And to be also just kind of like along for the ride, because I got on there too late to like have to do a big show.
John: So I did some shows where I was joining other people on their shows.
John: And that's nice.
John: That's nice.
John: You come in, somebody hands you a guitar, you play Sloop John B, you get out of there.
John: No blood, no foul.
John: That's nice.
Merlin: That sounds like the right state of mind.
John: Yeah.
John: A lot of people came up and said how much they love all the great shows.
John: A lot of people talking about Merlin Mann.
Merlin: Really?
Merlin: That's wonderful to hear.
John: So we still have listeners.
John: We have listeners.
John: They're devoted.
John: A guy I've known from the cruise for a long time came over and started talking to me, and I was like, oh, you listen to Roderick on the line.
John: Because he had made some reference.
John: He did not.
John: He's savvy enough not to come up and say, Mr. Rattrick.
John: Keep his small bag packed.
John: He was a little bit more, you know, canny.
John: Like, fully developed person.
John: And I said, oh, you know, you listen to Rattrick on the line.
John: And he said, um...
John: I have been listening from the very beginning.
John: And the thing about it is you and I are really good friends.
John: It's just that you don't know it.
John: Yeah, I have that feeling.
John: I have that feeling all the time.
John: I was like, yes, I know exactly what you're saying.
John: And I gave him a hug.
John: Totally true.
John: And I was like, you and I are totally friends.
John: And it is only...
John: it is only the internet that means that that keeps me from knowing that you and i are close and he's like it should be broken and he said no sweat totally get it fist bump and i was like right on right on boy you got the right state of mind for this and it and then in retrospect i don't i'm just guessing here supposing based on my own terrible approach to these things that that is that's the that's the uniform of the day that's the attitude for what you're doing here
Merlin: It's an attitude that I find very difficult to get with sometimes.
Merlin: Not just simply the larger issue of Aloha, but the smaller issue of this is supposed to be fun.
Merlin: You ever hear that story about, oh God, who's the guy who did 8 1⁄2?
Merlin: Fellini.
John: Oh, Fellini.
Merlin: Well, when Fellini did, the story goes that when Fellini did 8 1⁄2, he had a little sticker, like a little piece of tape that he put over the eyepiece.
Merlin: And written in Italian, it said, remember that this film is a comedy.
Merlin: And so every time he looked through it, he would remember that.
Merlin: Maybe he didn't always succeed with that.
Merlin: He's Fellini.
Merlin: But sometimes you've got to remember, remember this film is a comedy.
Merlin: I find it difficult to do.
Merlin: And if I remind myself to have a sense of humor, whatever the situation is.
Merlin: And when I say sense of humor, sense of humor is a big pattern.
Merlin: That's about way more than thinking something's funny.
Merlin: It's about having a certain plasticity about what's happening and being able to see an angle apart.
Merlin: I don't mean to change your topic here, but having the plasticity to see what's actually happening and to realize in this case, my small bag may be packed with a lot of unnecessary anxiety, anticipation, and preparation to feel bad or even hateful about what's happening.
Merlin: because it's disruptive to what I'd like to prefer to have happening.
Merlin: You've got to really get with it.
John: You get into all kinds of sniglets.
John: Yep, little sniglets.
John: If you're not fully prepared to go with the flow of whatever is currently the flow.
John: So, for instance, on the past Joker Cruises, there are a lot of entertainers there, and they're all kind of
John: um, they all have a place in the world that they occupy, but now they're all put together into a space where it's not a natural space.
John: Like the Joko Cruz does not just draw from one community where everybody already knows where they stand, right?
John: Like they might be giants are at the peak of their community.
John: There's no band that they might be giants would even open for now.
John: Right.
John: I mean, I suppose if,
John: I was going to say REM, but John Flansburg hates REM.
John: I was going to say, who's going to come along?
John: I mean, They Might Be Giants isn't going to open for you, too.
John: You know what I mean?
John: Yeah.
John: But here They Might Be Giants are on the tour.
John: And then, wait a minute, hold the phone, the McElroy brothers, who are at the top of their community.
John: Now, what happens if you put them in a room together?
John: They don't they're not members of one another's community.
John: If you say, oh, these two.
Merlin: I can tell you where that stratification goes just based on watching Griffin's videos where his username is always the pencil rain.
Merlin: I got a pretty good guess how that one stacks up.
Merlin: And I bet he had terrible anxiety and had to run to the bathroom.
John: He did.
John: He did.
John: He spent the entire crew very anxious because he also brought his child.
John: And so there was all that additional reason to be anxious.
John: Sure.
Merlin: Oh, gosh, yes.
Merlin: I saw a wonderful picture of Justin in Sydney.
Merlin: And I think it was on their patio, not their patio, the balcony or in their room.
Merlin: And it was just them grinning.
Merlin: It's like, hey, you can see there's stuff going on in the background with the baby.
John: The thing about Sydney is she is not anxious at all.
John: She is very.
John: She seems so centered to me.
John: She's really centered.
John: She's so incredibly smart.
John: And when she's around, you feel better.
John: Sydney comes up and talks to you and you immediately feel better.
John: You feel calmer.
John: You feel like you're having a wonderful conversation with a very smart person.
John: The only McElroy brother that isn't like constantly consumed with anxiety is Travis, who is obviously like a – He's pretty outgoing in his way.
John: Everybody knows.
John: Travis at one point said to me, you know, I'm the only one of my brothers that's strong.
Yeah.
Merlin: This episode of Roderick on the Line is brought to you in part by Squarespace.
Merlin: You can learn more about Squarespace right now by visiting squarespace.com slash super train.
Merlin: There are so many things that you can do with Squarespace.
Merlin: I'm going to tell you a few.
Merlin: You can create a beautiful website that will turn your cool idea into a fresh site right on the web where people can see it.
Merlin: You can showcase any kind of work that you have.
Merlin: You can have a blog or publish other kinds of content.
Merlin: You have photo galleries.
Merlin: Oh, so many things.
Merlin: You can even sell products.
Merlin: You guys, you can sell products and services of all kinds right from your Squarespace site.
Merlin: You can promote your physical or online business.
Merlin: You can announce an upcoming event or special project and so much more.
Merlin: Squarespace does all of this by giving you beautiful templates created by world-class designers, powerful e-commerce functionality that lets you sell anything online.
Merlin: They have the ability to customize the look and feel, the settings, the products, anything with just a few clicks, and it really is that easy.
Merlin: It's insanely easy.
Merlin: Everything is optimized for mobile right out of the box, so it looks great on every device or dingus.
Merlin: And they offer a new way to buy domains.
Merlin: You can choose from over 200 extensions.
Merlin: That's so many extensions, you guys.
Merlin: They have analytics that help you grow in real time.
Merlin: Built-in search engine optimization, of course.
Merlin: And this is free and secure hosting with nothing to patch or upgrade ever.
Merlin: And plus, they have 24 by 7 award-winning customer support.
Merlin: If you ever get in a jam, you just let them know.
Merlin: I think you guys probably know by now that I'm a big fan of Squarespace.
Merlin: I use it several times a week for several different things.
Merlin: I use it for my personal site and my other personal site.
Merlin: Importantly for this program, Roderick on the Line is entirely hosted lock, stock, and barrel right on Squarespace.
Merlin: It is where we put up our show notes.
Merlin: It's basically you're using Squarespace right now because that's also where we host the audio.
Merlin: You just download it.
Merlin: You guys have a podcast on Squarespace.
Merlin: What even is going on?
Merlin: You got to check this out.
Merlin: I really am actually a big fan.
Merlin: And every time I go in and have to tweak or add anything on my sites, it's just so easy to use.
Merlin: So please go check them out.
Merlin: You go to squarespace.com slash super train for a free trial.
Merlin: And when you're ready to launch, use that very special offer code super train to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Merlin: Our thanks to Squarespace for supporting Roderick online and all the great shows.
John: I understand.
John: He was like, and then he kind of went down.
John: He went, he doubled down on it.
John: He was like, I'm strong.
Merlin: And the other two, you know, he's got, he's got very strong hands.
Merlin: He used to work in a theater and like build sets and stuff.
John: Oh, sure.
John: He did.
John: That's how, that's how he met his wife.
John: Wow.
John: They met in the theater and she, she was like, you know, I was just in the theater and here, you know, here comes this guy.
John: But yeah, Justin and Griffin are anxious in very different ways.
John: That's so interesting to me.
John: Very different ways.
John: They're anxious about different things.
Merlin: Griffin has kind of a social anxiety?
John: Well, he wants to make sure that everything is working.
John: Oh, he's fretful.
John: Yeah, he's very fretful, and he's very kind of certain that everything's about to go off the rails at all times.
John: And then Justin is socially like, is everything okay?
John: Yeah.
John: are we okay?
John: Is this okay?
John: And what's funny is that he came up to me and was like, and I said, yes, Justin.
John: And he said, I'm an enormous fan of they might be giants.
John: And I really want to meet John Flansburg, but I don't know how.
John: And Flansburg is standing 15 feet away.
John: Right.
John: And the McElroy brothers are famous and this is, and they're like headliners on this cruise.
John: And I said, why don't we walk together and
John: over there and talk to john flansberg and he was like oh no i couldn't ask you to do that he just wanted strategy tips i was like it's fine no i think he wanted me to walk him over there but then he became anxious that he had asked too much oh god and i was like i said hey i'm on my way over to talk to him anyway because i had some stuff i don't know what i had to say to him i had some stuff to say to john let's go over and say hi
John: And so we walked over, and of course John is extremely, you know, Flansburg is very loving and embraces his fans.
Merlin: But he's also, he's very gregarious.
John: He's extremely gregarious.
John: He doesn't, you know, he's not like, you know, when a fan comes over to me and says, like, you are very meaningful to me, like, I go down with them.
John: Like, let's you and me get into a little bubble.
John: Yeah, say more about that.
John: Yeah, like, well, and just like, hey, okay, it's just you and me now for a little while.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: flans has been in this game for a long time and he knows to he knows to say like thank you probably before some of these people were born yeah and he's extremely sincere but he's but he also you know he he's he guards himself enough that he's not like let me go down every rabbit hole with every they might be giants fan that ever comes up you're not gonna talk about your like top 10 songs and stuff
John: No, or just like, hey, your music got me through my divorce.
John: He understands it.
John: He's appreciative.
John: He is also generous to them, but he can't possibly be.
John: Talk to every person who survived their divorce because of They Might Be Giants because it's a lot larger number than me.
John: And the Joker Cruise is full of stories like that.
John: You know, like I had cancer and the only thing I could listen to was Roderick on the line.
John: And I cannot walk away from that conversation.
Merlin: Oh, no, no, no, no.
Merlin: You can't.
Merlin: You open that door.
Merlin: We're going to step into a little private alcove for a while.
John: That's right.
Merlin: We're going to embrace and it's going to be awkward because I'm going to be the one that holds on longer.
John: Let me hear.
Merlin: You think this is awkward?
Merlin: I'm going to make this very awkward for you.
Merlin: I'm so glad you're alive.
Merlin: I should go.
Merlin: Hey, listen, listen, listen.
Merlin: Let's talk a little more.
Merlin: What's your favorite episode?
John: Well, so we walk over and Justin starts saying hello to Flans and they're having a nice conversation.
John: And guess who's there?
John: Your friend and mine, Robin Goldwasser.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: God, God bless everybody who has an opportunity to spend some time with Robin Goldwasser.
John: Yes.
John: And so Robin says, and you know, Robin has her own relationship with the world.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Very different than from Flanz's and certainly very different from yours or mine.
John: Although closer to yours because you guys both love Jerry Lewis.
Merlin: That's true.
Merlin: Oh, we were backstage at your concert with They Might Be Giants, and we drank shots of alcohol and talked about Jerry Lewis for so long.
Merlin: And you guys did fine.
Merlin: But that was one of the best nights of my life.
John: I know.
Merlin: It's so rare to meet somebody who wants to drink with you and talk about Jerry Lewis.
Merlin: And Robin was just – she was such a champ.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, and at a certain point, I was like, you guys are –
John: It's boring me now.
John: Stop it.
Merlin: It's a Vonnegut world.
Merlin: Like we are in a carass.
Merlin: Like we've waited our whole lives to meet each other.
Merlin: We didn't know it.
Merlin: So Justin, so juice is nervous.
Merlin: He comes up, he meets flans.
John: Yeah.
John: And then Robin is like, does, you know, Robin says, you know, Oh, hello, I'm Robin Goldwasser.
John: And he turns to her and says, I'm an enormous fan of people are wrong.
John: And he starts breaking down his love of people are wrong.
John: Robin Goldwasser's like off-Broadway musical from 2004.
John: Wow.
John: And it, you know, it had a run.
John: Robin's, you know, musical like had a run.
John: But it's not going to pop up on your Spotify now.
John: it's not your normal thing.
John: And, and Justin's like, he knows all the songs.
John: He has the original, you know, he has a CD of it that he's listened to a lot.
John: And so it's not, so all of a sudden I even realized like, Oh, he's not a, they might be giants fan.
John: He's, he celebrates their entire catalog.
John: Like he's, he's a deep dive on, on Robin.
Merlin: Well, like Sean Nelson and myself, I mean, if you really, really, really like the Beatles, there's a pretty good chance you're going to like Badfinger, too.
John: Right.
John: Although not necessarily the case with me, but... Remember when I sat in the car and made you listen to that song?
Merlin: Remember when I made you listen to that song and I cried while we were sitting in the car?
Merlin: You remember that?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: You heard a song about his son and it made me cry.
John: I do like them.
John: I'm not down on Badfinger.
Merlin: It's fine.
Merlin: It's fine.
Merlin: It's fine.
John: But yeah, like Ben Gibber...
John: Stop it.
John: They got a new record.
John: Ben Gibbard will talk about Teenage Fan Club until everyone in the room passes out, for lack of a lot.
John: Oh, man, get me on that call.
Merlin: And it's exactly the same type of thing.
Merlin: I know what you mean.
Merlin: Sometimes the energy around somebody... I mean, it would be like if I tried to... Well, if, God forbid, I tried to talk to you too much about the Smiths.
Merlin: At a certain point, you'd have to excuse yourself because you're...
Merlin: But I know that.
Merlin: I've grown.
John: I've grown.
John: Yes, but you know what?
John: I had to grow to listen to you talk about Sloan.
John: Well, they're very, very good.
John: At first, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: But then you got Eric Corson on the scene, and pretty soon, John's the odd man out.
John: I was surrounded.
John: And then I would go, and John Howard was like, yeah.
Merlin: Did you ever really, really, really listen to one chord to another?
Merlin: Did you ever really sit down and listen to it?
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Okay.
John: It got played in the van.
John: Oh.
John: And so I had to listen to it in that, which is an intense listen because everyone in the band is like listening.
John: Well, you know, we were not a band that would put music on and then talk over it.
John: Like if somebody said, Hey, I want you to hear this.
John: We would all just listen.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah, it's not your tempo.
John: Well, no, no, I saw Sloan.
John: I saw Sloan more than three times.
John: It's fine, John.
Merlin: It's fine.
Merlin: Let's just let it go.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Jesus Christ.
John: So, you know, Power Pop, I'm not like, I love Power Pop.
John: Do you?
John: I mean, you like the idea of Power Pop.
John: I do like the idea of Power Pop.
John: You wrote New Girl, you piece of shit.
Merlin: Well, I did it in homage.
Ugh.
Merlin: I'm going to make you a playlist.
Merlin: I'm going to make you a playlist and I'm going to sit there while you listen to the first 10 seconds.
Merlin: That sounds real good.
Merlin: What are they called?
Merlin: The breakaways?
Merlin: Oh yeah.
John: Some guys were in the nerves.
Merlin: We're also in this band called the breakaways.
Merlin: And then one of the guys went on to be in a million miles away.
Merlin: Sorry.
John: I'm already on this.
Merlin: She's a girl in a telephone booth.
Merlin: Whatever the fuck move on.
John: I mean, I do like Michael Penn.
John: Oh.
John: He's amazing.
John: But how do you feel about the album Girlfriend?
Merlin: Well, I don't know if I want to say.
John: That's fair.
Merlin: I thought it was a revelation.
Merlin: Now, a lot of people are hard.
Merlin: No, that's fine.
Merlin: A lot of people are hard on the sick of myself stuff.
Merlin: I like that, too.
John: I know.
John: I know.
John: Yeah.
John: Anyway, bouncing.
John: So Robin's play.
John: But here's the thing.
John: If you've got a They Might Be Giants and a McElroys.
John: Yes.
John: And you're backstage.
Merlin: That's a Nixon and Elvis situation, man.
John: You've got to get a photo of that.
John: Well, but the question in the past has always been like, everybody wants to be friends.
John: Everybody wants to be fine.
John: Everybody wants to be...
John: in love with one another, but it's also, there's a lot of jostling for position within entertainment.
John: Oh, nobody wants to talk about it, but it's true.
John: How many records have you sold?
Merlin: And at least if you're... Well, don't you, like, secretly, like, when you meet somebody, like, when you meet, like, a Dan Harmon, I mean, don't you kind of want them to say back to you, like...
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: Even if it's just kind of slight.
Merlin: Like, I like that song that was on the OC.
Merlin: And you're like, oh, wow, you know that I did that thing.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: Like, it would be nice if it was always reciprocal.
Merlin: It would be really nice if it was always exactly 100% equal.
Merlin: That ain't how life works.
Merlin: No, it's not.
John: But there are, like, within indie rock, it's very clear.
John: Because you're all in the same...
John: And if you come through, like you remember, we did that tour where we were touring America, essentially opposite Fugazi every night.
John: Wow.
John: And so in communities like Chicago, where there were enough Fugazi fans to fill up
John: The Union Hall or whatever, Philip, no, more than the Union Hall.
John: Enough Fugazi fans to fill up a big room full of Fugazi fans.
John: The Metro.
John: The Metro is where they would be.
John: There were also enough Long Winters fans to fill up the double door or whatever so that there was not – it wasn't a problem.
Merlin: Oh, I'm sorry.
Merlin: I see what you're saying.
Merlin: So maybe that's not going to be true in Gainesville.
Merlin: But somewhere where there's a sufficient critical mass of fans, you have enough – it's sort of like Rule 37 except for music.
Merlin: There's going to be enough people for both to get a turnout.
John: But if you're in St.
John: Louis and Fugazi is playing, there are a lot of people that might come to a Long Winters show –
John: that look at it and they go, well, I got to see Fugazi.
John: Yeah, they wait, they wait, they wait, they wait.
John: Yeah, so the promoter said, hmm.
Merlin: Fugazi!
Merlin: Fugazi!
Merlin: You're on the list now, Fugazi!
John: At the end of the night, the promoter says, oh, it's too bad that Fugazi was playing because otherwise I think we would have done better.
John: And you go, eh.
John: You're not helping.
Merlin: I saw Meat Puppets one night in Tampa when Whitesnake was playing down the street.
John: Oh, well, Harvey Danger got told that the reason people didn't come to our show in Orlando was that Eddie Money was playing.
John: Eduardo De Niro?
John: There's no way in which Eddie Money is drunk.
Merlin: I had to do a talk at Rutgers on the same night there was an on-campus performance by something called Deadmau5.
Merlin: And I had a really thin turnout and was super mad at whatever Deadmau5 is.
Merlin: Well, Deadmau5 is just a guy standing in front of a computer going... I assume it's a guy in a mask with a laptop.
John: Fucking edge lords and their fat beats.
John: Millions of dollars every time he walks out the door with that mouse mask on.
John: And then the genius thing is he takes the mouse mask off.
John: Who knows who he is?
Merlin: But I was talking about creativity and personal productivity in fucking New Jersey.
John: Sorry.
John: I help a lot of people, John.
John: This guy could stop checking your email.
John: And people would be like, he's amazing.
John: Like, who knows who the dead mouse hadn't been playing?
John: I would have come to your email talk.
John: But Ted Leo is is one of those examples where Ted Leo and the pharmacists.
John: Let's be let's just get right down to brass tacks.
John: They have sold more records than the Long Winters, but by a dimension that is not exponential, right?
John: Like if the Long Winters have sold 30,000 of one thing.
John: You're roughly in the same stew.
John: Roughly in the same stew.
John: Thank you.
John: Except that Ted, when he's with me,
John: is very clear that he is mad not about the Long Winters, but about the new pornographers.
John: Oh, interesting.
John: So Ted, in a way that I take to be an intentional backslap of me, he says, why are the new pornographers in the history books and Ted Leo and the pharmacists are not?
John: Huh.
John: Why is John Darnielle and his goats, why are they in the history books and I'm not?
Merlin: So Ted is... That hurts my heart.
Merlin: I would put Ted, Leo, and the pharmacist in a division somewhat... This is a crazy example, but having been to shows of Ted, Leo, and the pharmacist, you might have met this fellow, Dave Zahn.
Merlin: You go to a Pedro the Lion show.
Merlin: Well...
Merlin: Well, just in the sense that people are those are two acts that have a like rabidly loyal fan base.
John: Yes.
Merlin: There might not be a huge slice of the pie, but they are so fucking in that pie.
John: Correct.
John: And the Long Winters are not that way.
John: Oh, you're over in the stew, and these guys are splitting up part of a pie.
John: People come to see the Long Winters because they like the Long Winters, not because we are the... Because Ted Leo and the pharmacists have this whole...
John: Like, we're descended from hardcore and blankety blank, whatever hardcore means.
John: Chisel was great.
John: Chisel was a very good band.
John: I bought their CD.
John: There are a lot of people that think of punk rock as a political movement.
John: Yes.
John: And they come and they have a whole universe that the band is symbolic of.
John: Not dissimilar from the band Fugazi.
John: Very similar to the band.
John: And it's all tied up in like, we don't have to pay that much for shows because they're men of the people and so forth and so on.
John: And Bazan has that whole like, I used to be Christian and now I'm not.
John: So if you used to be Christian and aren't, you can hang with me.
John: But if you are still Christian...
John: and believe that somewhere in my heart I'm going to be Christian again one day, you can also be at the shows.
John: Like every time Bazan does a show, he has a question and answer period in the middle and he says, any questions?
John: And there's always somebody that's like, you know, what about, what are you going to do about your eternal soul?
Merlin: It's like conversion therapy.
Merlin: It's like, just guys, let it go.
John: But it's a built-in thing.
John: fan base that is intense absolutely and you know people come to a long winter show and i go hey fuck you guys how many of you have had a glass of farts recently anyway here's the song that i'm gonna play nice hat the guy couldn't guess your weight
John: Right, like, I don't care whether you like this or not.
Merlin: You usually get a free bowl of soup.
John: Dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang, dang.
Merlin: And if the audience gives me any guff, I'm like, Blues Jam!
John: here's a seven minute guitar solo yeah and half the time i'm like i get half through new girl and i have to turn to the audience and go and i turn to the band and say keep going pedal pedal i turn to the audience and go i don't remember the second verse and then they all yell it out any questions now that is not it's not where you're going to get a cult thing well but the new pornographers are over into the land of the shins
John: Oh, really?
John: Maybe music appeals to normals or to people out in the universe.
John: Yeah.
John: And if you see Newman fan, then you're part of the you're part of the cult or the Zumpano fan.
John: Yeah.
John: But if but you can listen to the new pornographers and just basically be a Nico Case fan.
John: Yeah.
John: And those people are driving Volvos, you know, and listening to NPR.
John: That's true.
John: So anyway, backstage of the Joko Cruz, depending on how sensitive you are and where you are in the world, these problems can be or these conditions can create problems.
Merlin: Yeah, it's been true at every one of these kinds of things.
Merlin: Well, I know it's not like I'm slagging because I don't mean to, but it was equally true at MaxFunCon.
Merlin: There I felt even more of a terrible disparity in some ways because, I don't know, it's just really difficult and awkward, especially when you're playing at my level.
Merlin: It's really like, ugh.
Merlin: I mean, it isn't like I'm James Brown and somebody needs to wrap a cape around me and get me off stage.
Merlin: You know, you're just walking around.
Merlin: You're just a person walking around.
Merlin: And it's, you know, but there's still that disparity of like, are you on the performing side or are you on the consuming side?
Merlin: And it's very, I found it very awkward personally.
John: Well, so what do you do when you put, so here you got Paul F. Tompkins and you got John Hodgman and they're standing next to each other and they love each other.
John: They're very close friends.
John: Yeah.
John: But who can sell more tickets in St.
John: Louis?
John: And believe you me, they both have that somewhere in their mind, even as part of their very close friendship.
John: Yeah.
John: It never is a hundred percent gone.
John: And then you put them on a boat with, uh, you know, with like fucking Amy man.
John: And it's like, where do who, who, what is a wahoo?
John: And that has always been very uncomfortable for me because I am often, uh,
John: I'm presented on the boat as like one of the big draws, but some of that is down to an initial misconception that Jonathan and Hodgman had that I was a big deal, which was an initial misconception that happened because it was before they were famous and I was at the peak of my famousness.
John: And so for a very brief moment, they were like, wow, that guy's a real rock musician.
John: He knows famous people and we're just two guys in New York that like
John: Go to go to book readings and stuff.
John: And then within six months, they were they were both enormous.
John: But they had this residual feeling that I had fans.
John: And so I'm always a little bit uncomfortable with my standing.
John: But boy, this year, let me tell you, when two people started talking to each other and turned their backs on me.
John: Mm hmm.
John: I put on a lay, and I got on my Aloha skateboard, and I just skateboarded over to the taco bar.
John: Oh, let the turtles find me.
John: Yeah, I left it all alone, and it was real, too.
John: I wasn't just over-performing at the taco bar as though I didn't.
Merlin: You've been rehearsing this.
Merlin: I mean, you know what I mean?
Merlin: It's kind of like an exercise for you.
Merlin: It's a project.
Merlin: If Aloha can be a project, you've been inhabiting that, and you didn't default to an old state.
Merlin: You default to the Aloha state, which is Hawaii.
John: Yes.
John: Wow.
John: And it worked.
John: It worked.
John: It really works.
Merlin: You've got to do it, but it works.
John: I went down to the island of Tortola, and I was walking around, and Tortola was very damaged by the hurricanes.
John: But Tortola, a long time before being damaged by the hurricane, Tortola was damaged by the British slave trade.
John: And so, you know, the island is now, the town of Roadtown has built a, which is the biggest town in the British Virgin Islands, it has built a cruise ship dock.
John: And they are saying, come bring your cruise ship money to the island of Tortola.
John: Because the
John: nation of the united kingdom is not really giving us a lot of development cash as evidenced by the fact that all of our buildings are falling down after this devastating bomb of a hurricane and so i so everybody on the boat they get off they go on snorkeling adventures they go to beachfront they get on buses and they go to beachfront bars where they're getting served things in pineapples and
John: And, you know, I get down off the boat and I go to the town and I walk around the town and I go to parts of the town which are not designed for business.
John: Yeah.
John: Because I feel like if you're in a foreign country and you don't at least for a little while get yourself into a situation where you're uncomfortable, you're just not – If you go to a lot of places like that, there will be – what's the phrase I want to use?
Merlin: Desire paths where you can see where the other tourists and normals are going and you do have to kind of consciously – it's like trying to –
Merlin: get off Market Street.
Merlin: Like you keep turning right and turning right and ending up back on Market Street.
Merlin: And you know what I mean?
Merlin: That sense of like the first time I came to San Francisco, I could not get off Market Street to save my life because I kept turning right.
Merlin: You can't turn left anywhere.
Merlin: I just kept doing like three right turns and ending up on Market Street for an hour.
Merlin: And I think when you go to a town like that, it's similar.
Merlin: It was true in Puerto Rico as well.
Merlin: Like visiting, what's the capital there?
Merlin: But when we visited there, it was really beautiful.
Merlin: We went to Big Fort and everything, but I did not get a sense of like, this is what Puerto Rico like is, is.
John: So I did that in Puerto Rico this time, too.
John: I was like, nope, I'm going far afield.
John: And I got to a place where there were people nodding off in doorways and ladies of the sex trade propositioning me.
John: And then the sun went down.
John: And I was like, hmm, I'm pretty far away.
John: I'd better call a car.
John: And I called an Uber and the guy pulled up and he was like, what are you doing out here?
John: Get in the car.
John: Wow.
John: Really?
John: I was like, and I never felt unsafe.
John: You're basically like a human pinata.
John: It never felt unsafe because it's just a, you know, because you're just, you're cruising.
John: You're cruising.
Merlin: Yeah.
Yeah.
John: But in on the island of Tortola in San or I'm sorry, in Roadtown, I was walking through like a part of the town that was not tourist ready.
John: And I see a guy sitting on top of a pile of garbage and I I wave because I'm but I'm conscious of where I am.
John: Like I'm not like waving like a dummy.
John: I don't have a straw hat on.
John: And also I don't have my camera out.
John: Like I'm respectful of the place I am.
John: You don't seem like you're just there to gawk.
John: I'm not gawking.
John: Where I try to go is to the cemeteries.
John: And I went and I spent 45 minutes in the cemetery that was up on the hill just walking around looking at all of the old stones and trying to get a sense of the history of the place.
John: David Reese, for a long time, when we would go to one of these little islands, he would say, let's get off and try and find old reggae 12 inches, 12 inch records.
John: Mm hmm.
John: And we would go and we'd ask people and they would say, oh, yeah, there's a guy on the other side of town, I think.
John: Don't they have style reggae?
John: We'd walk over there and there'd be some guy and he's sitting there and he'd be like, oh, no, man, you got to go over to this guy.
John: And a couple of times we actually found a guy that was like, you want to buy old reggae 12 inches?
John: Yeah, I got some in the basement.
John: Got some crazy old records.
John: So you got to have a mission.
John: You set yourself up a mission.
John: I go to graveyards.
John: Anyway, I'm walking by, I see this guy on a pile of trash.
John: I waved to him just to settle like, Hey man, what's up?
John: And he gives me the finger and it's the finger.
John: Uh, it's like a 10, it's a 10,000, 10,000 year finger.
John: A lot of, there's a lot of information in the finger.
Merlin: I get it.
Merlin: I totally get it.
Merlin: And it's not, and he's not like, he's not like, I'm giving you the same finger that people have been giving him this, the same people have been giving to the same people for millennia.
John: Yeah.
John: And I'm like, Hey man.
John: And he's like, eh, fuck you.
John: Yeah.
John: And I go, so, but at the time I'm like, I'm on my Aloha skateboard.
John: Yeah.
John: And I said, you know what?
John: Like, I don't accept it.
John: Like, it's not my I don't feel the burden of carrying your finger with me any further.
John: But I witness it.
John: I witness your finger.
John: And he's like, yeah, I'm not trying to give it to you.
John: I mean, I don't want you to.
John: It's just lending it to you.
John: Yeah.
John: You're just like, this is your this is our 30 second interaction.
John: Let's look at cat hissing at you.
John: Kind of.
John: Yeah.
John: But it's like an, like a hiss that doesn't have any, the cat's not going to, it's not like he's going to get up off of his pile of trash.
John: If I had turned and walked over and said, Hey, what's up?
John: What's with the finger?
John: He would have said, you know, man, this isn't your part of town.
John: What are you doing over here?
John: Why don't you go back to your fancy boat?
John: And I would have like, I have to witness that.
John: He's absolutely right.
John: Yeah.
John: Because down in the Harbor, there's also a Disney cruise boat that is pumping the
John: Disney themes from Disney movies so loud that it's rattling your teeth.
John: That's not a good neighbor No, it's not but Disney Disney believes that Disney, you know, yes, I mean, yeah, I do I absolutely do that this music needs to be here Well and someone up someone up the chain and all the people down the chain at Disney think everybody loves Disney sure
John: And you go, not if your house has been blown down by a hurricane.
John: No one came in with any more money to fix it.
John: And you're just sitting on a pile of trash.
John: Disney isn't like the answer there.
John: And they're like, really?
John: Are you sure?
Merlin: No, that's that's a real hyper reality kind of moment.
Merlin: That's that's too much contrast for my liking.
Merlin: A lot going on.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: But again, I felt like my aloha did not cause me to just float on from that experience.
John: I took it.
John: I took it.
John: I understand it.
John: I witness it.
John: But also I did not do what I normally would do, which is chew on it, like sit and gnaw on the bone of that experience, trying to figure out what I can do, trying to figure out what my responsibility is, like looking at the history of time and life.
John: and fretting over it you know like like griffin mcelroying it like what i need to come back to this island with 10 000 cans of gatorade and no i need to appeal to the british government no just like you know it's like where are you who are you where are you like you just you you got right back on the aloha skateboard and you just skated away i skated on town i skated through the town i saw the saw the government buildings and
John: The government people and the cops at the cop station, they also did not, they were not interested in me.
John: They were doing business.
John: And I'm just like, again, I'm not taking pictures.
John: I'm not here to fill up my Instagram feed.
John: I'm just here to see like the condition of the sidewalks.
John: And they're like, we're doing business and you are clearly like a comet passing through our solar system.
John: And I'm like, yes, frankly, yes, I am.
John: I also am not doing that thing I used to do, which is like, hey, man, you know, like I'm not trying.
John: I'm not I'm not 19.
John: It's casual.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Why are you talking like that?
John: Hey, hang loose.
John: I'm trying to live here.
John: I don't know.
John: I'm not like, all people are the same mind.
John: Hey, I agree.
John: I'm not doing that.
John: I'm just like, ba-ba-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da-ba-da.
John: Just the sound of Aloha wheels, wheeling away.
John: And this is what I like.
John: Like, I like to do this.
John: I'm not doing this for any—this is not a strict relations tour.
John: It is not a humanitarian—I'm just—this is what I like.
John: Yes.
John: And I learned a lot from your graveyard.
John: You know, hat tip.
John: Thank you, m'lady.
John: Back on the boat.
Merlin: That would have been a good time to bring in the D&D accent.
Merlin: Hello.
John: Hello.
Merlin: I understand you've buried your dead near here.
Merlin: I see.
Merlin: Or that I could visit your dead.
Merlin: i have i see your names i see your for me and my clan every day is dios del muerto yes so tough tough times tough times but also like oh jesus i can't even fathom everything went by just like a wave can you imagine a giant fucking boat and a bunch of white people getting off can you just even imagine oh i don't have to
Merlin: Oh, good.