Ep. 337: "Reacharound Fave"
John: Hello.
John: Hi, John.
John: Hi, Merlin.
John: How's it going?
John: Oh.
John: Oh.
John: Whoa.
Merlin: Oh, Roderick.
Merlin: Roderick.
Merlin: I think they got your number.
Merlin: Oh, they got my number.
Merlin: I think they got my number.
Merlin: I think they got the alias.
Merlin: all the voices in your head calling roderick so uh i think we covered how you're doing that seems good that seems good yep yeah yeah um we're in evergreen territory john
John: Oh, yeah, I know.
John: I know.
John: We don't want to talk about Game of Thrones.
John: Oh, it's on the list.
John: Oh, really?
John: Because it's evergreen.
John: We're doing evergreen.
John: Yeah, but I think I got an angle.
John: We can't really talk about that.
Merlin: But, you know, I got an angle.
Merlin: Whenever you're ready, I can give you...
Merlin: uh as some of the items from the list i mean it's always there as they say as a backboard yeah yeah we have we haven't needed don't don't need it we got we got a lot of thought i mean we're helping a lot of people we never need it but you know game of thrones am i right like oh boy the ending of that was oh
Merlin: Can't believe how quickly the characters moved around.
John: They sure did, and they did things, and they did other things.
Merlin: One part was surprising, and the other part was like, what?
John: I disagree.
Merlin: You disagree with this fellow over here.
Merlin: I totally agree.
Merlin: Oh, man, I disagree with myself.
John: Yeah, well, I disagree with that.
Merlin: Oh, boy, people get mad about stuff, don't they?
John: Yeah, cacao to the cacao.
Merlin: Yeah, people get real fired up.
John: Oh, yeah, they're very excited.
John: I read a lot of hot takes.
Merlin: This is... Do we want to reveal when... No, no, this is evergreen, but, you know, I was just Googling it.
Merlin: Oh, but, yeah, for the sake of argument, if it was... If it was, you know, last night was the final episode on May 19th...
John: I read a lot of hot takes.
John: I didn't like any of them.
John: I didn't like a single hot take.
John: I didn't even like any of the cooler takes.
Merlin: There were a lot of takes.
Merlin: It's okay not to post.
Merlin: It's really okay.
Merlin: Oh, yes.
John: You just said it, brother.
Merlin: And, you know, the thing a person forgets, you know, bless their heart, you know, you forget that the people are going to be fine without your post.
Merlin: And the really difficult part is, you know, you'll be fine without the post.
John: Yeah, you need to— But people get mad, John.
John: Just remember, you don't have to post.
John: You don't have to post—
John: Do you think about that?
Merlin: Do you ever think about not really needing to post?
John: Well, you don't need to post.
Merlin: That's so true.
Merlin: Boy, it took a long time.
Merlin: That was a real century plant for me.
Merlin: It took a good long while of, you know, John, I'm going to tell you, even knowing you don't always need to post, it took me a long time to stop actually posting.
Merlin: Even though I knew you don't really need to post.
Merlin: I think the greatest content that I can share with people at this point is what I didn't say.
Merlin: Wow.
John: Thank you.
Merlin: Thank you.
Merlin: Do you ever think about that?
John: I am learning it too.
John: I'm learning it all the time.
John: Um, yeah, it is so important.
John: It's, it's maybe the most important.
John: And, uh, I, I, hang on just a second.
John: Cause I'm, I'm, I feel, I feel like I've got to put that on the internet right now.
John: Oh yeah.
Uh,
John: Remember, you don't need to post.
John: You don't need to post.
John: Yeah, I credited you with that.
John: It's going out because I want to start doing that right now.
John: I want to get that out there right now.
John: Send tweet.
John: Okay.
John: Oh, wait, wait, wait.
John: Except.
John: Except.
John: What?
John: Well, I didn't need to post that.
John: Oh, because this is evergreen, but now people are going to be able to look back, find that post, and they're going to know.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: You didn't need to post?
Merlin: No, I didn't need to post that.
Merlin: And now you timestamped our evergreen.
John: I timestamped it, yeah.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: Well, you know, you could also, you know, this was even after I realized that and I stopped always needing to post this.
Merlin: And sometimes, you know, it leaks through.
Merlin: You have a post about the postings.
Merlin: So now.
John: Oh, I did that last night.
Merlin: You take it up like a whistle in the morning.
Merlin: You bring it up a level.
Merlin: Bring it up a level.
John: I was like, I did a meta post.
John: I did an ironical post.
Merlin: Oh, and then you say something like, am I doing this right?
John: Oh.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Like, oh, are we done with this joke already?
John: No, I didn't do that.
John: But I did do the post that was like a hot take except dumb.
Merlin: Was it really dumb or was it a thinker?
Merlin: It might have been a thinker.
Merlin: Oh, you did.
Merlin: You actually literally posted.
John: You don't need to post.
John: I don't.
John: I didn't need to post.
John: I'm sorry.
John: Oh, no, you did that.
John: I'm sorry.
John: Should I delete it?
Merlin: Okay, you ready for my response?
Merlin: Go, go, go, go, go.
Merlin: I'm going to do this response, which is just your name in all capital letters.
John: Are you ready?
John: That's a classic Amy Mann response.
Merlin: Send tweet.
Merlin: Okay, here we go.
John: Oh, there it is.
John: There it is.
John: Oh, that's good.
John: People are going to like this.
Merlin: I can't believe you did.
John: You tore away the veil.
John: We had the curtain up and no light was getting in.
John: And then I just got excited.
John: I just had something I needed to say right then.
John: Oh, man.
John: Yeah, I don't know.
John: Oh, look, look, look, look, look.
John: Oh, there's Matt Howie.
John: Matt Howie.
John: Oh, he was right there.
John: Johnny on the spot.
John: Yeah.
John: And we built this city who is a long time fan.
John: I think it's a Friskin.
John: Yeah.
John: A Friskin.
John: Her husband once got hit in the head with a kazoo thrown by Jonathan Rothman.
Merlin: No way.
Merlin: Brady's bit.
John: No kidding.
John: And I think you were at that show.
John: It was in the Café du Nord.
John: Oh, I love that place.
John: Yeah, I know.
Merlin: So we played a lot of good shows there.
Merlin: Why people got to order complicated drinks there?
Merlin: Why can't you just get a beer?
John: You can't order a complicated drink at the Café du Nord.
John: There's not time for that.
Merlin: They're not set up for that.
Merlin: It's a one bartender operation a lot of the time.
John: I've been there in like forever.
John: Just roll up, get a beer or wine.
John: Not even a wine.
Merlin: Yeah.
Yeah.
John: I mean, maybe if you don't like beer, seven and seven.
Merlin: What's the lime drink we all use to get?
Merlin: No, where you smash up the mint leaves.
Merlin: Oh, the mojito.
Merlin: Oh, the mojito.
Merlin: Mojito.
John: Some kind of a Cuban drink or something.
Merlin: But it takes, there's a lot of parts to the mojito.
Merlin: You know, I don't want, I'm not going to post.
Merlin: Am I posting right now?
Merlin: Does this count as posting?
John: Oh, here, Don Schaffner.
John: Yep.
John: whom we know is a food scientist at Rutgers.
Merlin: Oh, he's in your Menchies.
Merlin: There he is.
John: Hey, Dr. Don.
John: He just liked your reply, John.
John: Oh.
John: So now that's happening.
Merlin: Should we construct a thread?
Merlin: Should we workshop how you respond to that?
John: See, this is great, because Don liked your reply before he liked my original tweet.
John: Oh, I do that sometimes.
John: Wow, that's so good.
Merlin: Sometimes I respond.
Merlin: Sometimes I post by responding to the tweet before I've had the decency to do the reach around fave.
John: Oh, sure.
Merlin: You know, because you really should, you know, don't you think out of consideration if you're going to do the response, if you're going to do the quote tweet, you better reach around hard.
Merlin: You got to really get in there.
John: I forget to fave.
John: Yeah.
John: I got to say, I forget to fave.
John: Not, I don't like 100% forget, but sometimes I'll be like, and then I'll say, oh, I really liked that tweet.
John: You know, if I'm still thinking about it, I should go back and give it a fave.
John: Give it a fave.
John: Yeah.
John: But I did a quote treat.
John: I did a quote post.
Merlin: Is it a treat?
John: I did one and I like lavished profusive things.
Merlin: Oh, is this on Overcast?
John: No, this was, oh, well, the overcast one where Marco was like, use overcasts or whatever.
John: Marco was, this is something.
John: Sorry, I took you off already.
John: I shouldn't have posted.
John: No, it's okay.
John: It's okay.
John: Oh, look, Bobby Sayers, Bobby Sayers just faved.
John: Hey, buddy.
Merlin: Wade Rocket's in the mix.
John: Oh, is that right?
John: Oh, good.
Merlin: Let me see what else we got in here.
John: Okay.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Wade Rocket did both, too.
John: That's cool.
John: Jesse Tipton got in there.
Merlin: Jesse Tipton.
John: Yeah, the other day we were just like floating along in life, you know, and Marco Arment was listening to the Roadwork program and took an excerpt, which he thought was funny and good,
John: And he putted it up.
Merlin: He putted it up and it was a very good bit.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: It was also generous because it was, well, I mean, it was nice.
Merlin: It was a good Dan response is what it was.
John: It was a good Dan response.
John: That's right.
John: Dan got the joke.
John: I mean, Dan laid down the joke.
John: And when that happens, it's good.
John: It's good for everybody.
John: And Marco was like, he wanted to throw that zinger out.
John: He wanted to give that zinger a little bit of a signal boost.
John: Okay.
John: He's being an ally.
John: He's being an ally.
John: And in that, he's signal boosting the whole program.
John: Well, a bunch of people chime in because, of course, you don't need to post.
John: You don't need to post, but sometimes people do want to chime.
John: They chime, and a lot of them chime about the joke.
John: Some of them chime about the post of the joke, but a lot of people chimed in about the use of Overcast.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Weather, overcast.
John: Some people were like heaping praise on the fact that overcast.
John: Oh, really?
John: Oh, no, really?
John: Well, they were saying this is great.
John: This was a nice.
John: And supportive.
John: Were they being allies, John?
John: They were.
John: They were saying you can do good snippets on overcast.
Merlin: I was worried they were being access.
Merlin: I hear you saying they're being allies.
John: Some were.
John: Okay.
John: But other people were like, I can't use this on my Android phone.
John: Yeah.
John: And some people were like.
Merlin: What's that what I was going to say about you?
John: Well, then there was another person that said, I wish I didn't have to subscribe to this.
John: I wish that I could just buy it.
John: If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass a hop.
John: Oh, you said it.
John: I also don't like to subscribe to things.
John: I like to just buy them.
John: So I felt like an ally of that person.
John: It's Marco's eel.
John: And Marco knows about eels.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: He knows from eels.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: His eel is a generous lover, though.
John: It's a very nice eel.
John: Dan Kennedy just faved it.
John: That's Dan Kennedy from The Moth.
Merlin: No kidding.
Merlin: From the podcast program?
Merlin: Yeah, The Moth program.
Merlin: Shut your whore mouth.
Merlin: Are you even kidding me?
Merlin: Oh, look at that.
Merlin: Look at this.
John: Spencer Thutt saved it or liked it.
John: Spencer Thutt's in there.
Merlin: Overcast has added an overcast, but this will be very old news potentially, but overcast added a feature and just a little bit of behind the scenes.
Merlin: This is something that Marco had told almost no one about.
Merlin: And it's actually a great feature, which many of you have not only know about, but are using in a way that's really, really cool.
Merlin: And so basically he added a thing where if you're listening in the overcast podcast app,
Merlin: You can go in and you go in and you select a segment using little drag handles.
Merlin: Drag handles.
Merlin: It's so clever, John.
Merlin: It's so clever.
Merlin: Marco's a clever boy.
Merlin: He knows how to jam it in the side door.
Merlin: He figures out you go select a segment of up to one minute, you export that as a movie, and then you can post that.
Ah.
Merlin: Now, his his he had a couple of things in mind.
Merlin: He says I listen to his shows.
Merlin: He said he said a couple of ideas in mind.
Merlin: One was like you should just be able to like listen to a bit from a podcast that somebody thought was good.
Merlin: It's a great advertisement for a podcast.
Merlin: It's a great promotion for the freedom of the podcast.
Merlin: But he he had particularly in mind the Instagram platform because you can't just go post an audio.
Merlin: Nobody looks at the bleep bloop going up and down.
Merlin: And then he made it so that you could do it square, you can do it tall, you can do it wide.
Merlin: And I'll stop going on about this.
Merlin: Oh, it's recommending I follow Colin Malloy.
Merlin: And so send tweet.
Merlin: But anyway, it's really cool.
Merlin: And I have used it to share many things from programs I enjoy.
Merlin: And people have shared things from programs we're involved with.
Merlin: Ah, isn't that nice?
Merlin: It's nice to be liked.
Merlin: Or it's nice to be the source of something like entertainment.
John: Well, then, this is the other thing I think about you don't need to post.
John: You always need to post praise.
Merlin: Oh, man.
Merlin: It should be a compliment machine.
John: Wouldn't it be nice if it was just praise and not other things?
John: Not hot takes, even.
John: No hot takes, just praise.
John: I had a question for you.
John: Yes, you there.
John: Oh, look here, Dan Kennedy of The Moth, a New York City-based, now-based program.
John: He actually replied.
John: He sent a reply and hit send tweet.
John: Yeah, he replied.
John: And you know what it is?
John: It's...
John: It's a funny tweet about the tweet.
Merlin: Oh, he's you know what he's doing.
Merlin: He's doing a kind of recombinant digitalis where he's bringing in a separate bit.
Merlin: I'm not going to call this hat on a hat.
Merlin: I'm going to call you take you take a hat and then make a more handsome hat.
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: Like a like a wedding cake.
John: And I get your thing.
John: I get your thing.
John: And I'm going to double down on it.
John: Yes.
Merlin: You know, when you're doing that bit.
Merlin: So the bit of the bit we saw the bit we've seen is where you're supposed to do it.
Merlin: What is it like?
Merlin: Four lies in the truth.
Merlin: Like here's some concerts I say I've been to and you guess which one is fake.
Merlin: Is that the bit?
John: Yes.
John: Six concerts that you've been to.
John: Five of them are real.
John: One of them's fake.
John: Okay.
John: And I did it.
John: I did it.
John: I did it.
John: And I'm just spoiler alert.
John: I'm going to give it away.
John: Which one is not the one.
Merlin: Let me guess.
Merlin: Let me guess.
Merlin: Let me guess.
John: All right.
John: Look at it.
Merlin: Oh God, this is hard.
Merlin: So you said, if I can, can I quote you?
Merlin: Can I quote tweet you?
John: Go ahead.
Merlin: Count Basie, Miley Cyrus, Slayer, Vanilla Ice, Ricky Skaggs, Smashing Pumpkins.
Merlin: I'm going to fall into the trap and say Vanilla Ice.
John: I'm afraid not.
John: I have seen Vanilla Ice.
John: Smashing Pumpkins.
John: It is Smashing Pumpkins.
John: Oh, wow.
John: And, you know, James Urbaniak.
John: James Urbaniak, friend of the show.
John: He doesn't know him.
John: He's a friend of the show.
John: He's a friend of the show.
John: You and he had a wonderful time in the lobby of a very weird hotel.
Merlin: I had a terrible haircut in that photo.
John: It breaks my heart.
John: You didn't like that hotel either.
John: Well, it had a lot of problems, John.
John: No TVs.
John: The doors were very tall, but thin.
John: Anyway, James Urbaniak right away, like within seconds, was like smashing pumpkins.
John: I know for a fact you saw Vanilla Ice at some kind of benefit show.
John: He didn't know that for a fact, but he just he knew it in his heart and soul.
John: He felt it.
John: Yeah.
John: And he was just like smashing pumpkins.
John: I know you didn't see them.
John: And then there were a bunch of people that lined up and were like, you know what?
John: You didn't go see the Smashing Pumpkins because it was beneath your dignity, wasn't it?
John: And I was like, you're not wrong.
Merlin: Nature kids, they don't need no function.
Merlin: I bet they put on a pretty good show.
Merlin: That first record's good.
John: I bet they did.
John: In the early days, I bet it was good.
John: I bet Gish or Siamese Dream or whatever, that would have been a good time to see Smashing Pumpkins.
John: I didn't see them then.
John: I never saw Nirvana.
John: But I didn't put that on the list because...
John: I figured that there were enough people that knew that already.
John: Like just like I didn't put Primus because everybody knows I didn't.
John: My question to you.
John: Yes.
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John: Is, we are in, it seems to me,
John: We are in what I would describe as the golden age of podcasting.
John: And I mean that in the sense that there will come a day maybe soon where we all look back at this time and go, wow, things were great then.
John: And now it's all screwed up.
John: And the thing is there are still people within the podcasting sphere like Marco.
John: I think like Dan.
John: who are primarily motivated by making it better rather than making it worse for money.
John: Yeah.
John: Now, who are the ones?
John: I want to hear from you.
Merlin: Oh, brother.
Merlin: You sure you want to do this?
John: I just want to say, who are the people?
John: You're going to know this.
John: Who are the people that are also making it better?
John: Oh.
John: This is what I want to know.
John: Who are the ones that are spending their time and energy who could potentially be doing it to ruin it and profit from that ruining?
John: Who are the ones that are actually still trying to make it better, who are fighting the good fight, who are swimming upstream on this before the corporate media overlords?
John: And they're like media middlemen and yes dudes and people that are trying to sell penile enhancement drugs.
John: When they come into the sphere and they're coming, oh, I see.
John: It's just like Game of Thrones, Merlin.
John: You look out there, you see the army.
John: They've got a dragon.
John: Destroy the scorpions.
John: They have a dragon who uses fire, but it's fire that can cut through stone like a laser through cheese, which I don't quite understand what kind of fire also works as like a wrecking ball.
Merlin: Yeah, we saw that last season with the blue spitting dragon that killed the big wall.
Merlin: And you're like, huh, I didn't know it could do that.
Merlin: The thing is, the wall is made of ice.
Merlin: It's old ice.
Merlin: Yeah, it's vintage ice.
John: Right.
John: It's rotten ice.
John: But the Red Keep is made of rocks.
John: Yeah, it sure is.
John: But look, I didn't need to post that.
John: You know what?
John: Delete tweet.
John: I posted it on a podcast instead of posting it.
John: So just give me the breakdown.
John: I want to praise these people.
John: I want to fave them.
John: Who is doing the Lord's work to keep podcasting free and easy?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: This requires a little bit of a disclaimer and opening statement that I always like to say, which is that I have my own reasons that are not purely old man reasons, but they're somewhat old man reasons for mostly liking the way podcasts work now.
Merlin: So, I mean, take everything that I say with a grain of salt, plus the fact that this is part of my job and stuff.
Merlin: But it is my feeling – forgive me.
Merlin: It is my belief that podcasts got good and podcasts got somewhat widely accepted and enjoyed because of what you have described as the – I guess you could somewhat alternatively say –
Merlin: Free and independent in some ways.
Merlin: It doesn't have to be independent, but it should be mostly free.
Merlin: And free is in all the ways.
Merlin: Free is in beer, free is in speech.
Merlin: Free as in independent.
Merlin: Independence.
Merlin: I'm going to be a dentist.
Merlin: The free part made it good.
Merlin: And the free part in this case is like there's an RSS feed that has audio attachments.
Merlin: And any kind of a podcast player can go and play that podcast.
Merlin: Now, there are like numerous.
Merlin: You can come up.
Merlin: Wait, wait, wait.
Merlin: Do these work on Android?
Merlin: Well, they do.
Merlin: Like listening to a podcast is a thing you can do lots of different places.
Merlin: But the basic like in the stack, as John Sirkusa would say, when you're down close to the metal, the thing that has made it what it is in a lot of ways is it's not difficult.
Merlin: It's not technically difficult to have a podcast, make a podcast.
Merlin: It's not like economically difficult.
Merlin: It's not onerous.
Merlin: There are a lot of –
Merlin: There's so many shows that like got good with terrible audio and shows that got good with, um, you know, I'm sitting right here.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: That was, that was delete tweet.
Merlin: The no.
Merlin: So that's my, my opening statement is like what I'm about to say will be something like a defense of why I like podcasts, not getting too different yet.
Merlin: Um,
Merlin: And so anybody who's a podcast fan already kind of knows this, which is like, regardless of what the content is that you are listening to mostly with some behind the scenes, things that don't hugely matter for our conversation, like dynamic ad insertion.
Merlin: But the truth is like, if you listen to a podcast anywhere, it's going to be the same.
Merlin: And then the next, you know, up in that layer, then you've got the players and the players could be free.
Merlin: Like the most, the most popular podcast client in the world is Apple's podcast app.
John: Oh, and now let me just interject there.
John: Yes.
John: You are someone, I believe, who would ultimately congratulate Apple for having done that in the first place.
John: Is that correct?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: I not only would congratulate them for doing it in the first place, but very importantly, and somewhat quizzically, why have they not tried to find some way to put a...
Merlin: Put a cash register on it.
Merlin: They're not hosting the files.
Merlin: That's the thing is when you have a podcast, you host the files yourself.
Merlin: So, you know, but they basically created the podcast directory that made it easy to find stuff and then subscribe to it.
Merlin: Initially, you would download it to iTunes and sync it to your iPod with a cable.
Merlin: Eventually that became wireless.
Merlin: Eventually that became like you could do it anywhere.
Merlin: But the basic, you know, the monad is that like whatever show you like, you can listen to it anywhere.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: But the application part of this is like, okay, there's different applications.
Merlin: You can get free ones.
Merlin: You get free with fewer features.
Merlin: You could pay.
Merlin: You could do whatever.
Merlin: But like – and those enhancements – You can get an eel.
Merlin: Huh?
John: You can get an eel.
Merlin: You can get an eel.
John: Is this boring?
John: Be honest.
John: Well, I'm not sure.
John: Now, was the Apple thing – who can tell?
John: But was the Apple thing – was that the responsibility of the man in the black –
John: turtleneck or was that something else?
Merlin: I recently had a conversation, uh, on a podcast for a couple hours, uh, that included this.
Merlin: And my conclusion was that of all the things where I feel like you can draw like a straight line between Steve jobs and like a technology that he wanted for himself.
Merlin: I mean, as I said to a friend, John Gruber, like I could see that Steve wanted a Macintosh.
Merlin: That was really great for everybody, but especially for him, I could very much see him wanting an iPhone, iPad, um, maybe even Apple TV.
Merlin: Um,
Merlin: I don't personally see this being a passion project for him as a consumer because it just doesn't seem like how he rolls.
Merlin: But I think he did see it as an important way to extend interest in the iPod.
John: Was it Scott Simpson?
John: Who do we know at Apple that had a hand in this?
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: Scott Simpson worked for an anonymous paper company on the peninsula.
Merlin: Anyways, so anyway, to get to this, so getting to the point you're talking about, like, who's doing great with this?
Merlin: Well, the people who are doing great with this, I think, are people who are making the apps on which you listen to this better.
Merlin: If you're the kind of monster that likes to listen at faster than 1x...
John: Oh, don't do it.
John: Don't do it.
John: I know you got things to do.
John: I know you're busy.
Merlin: Don't do it.
Merlin: It's a secret shame.
Merlin: Some people are proud of it.
Merlin: And some people are like, I sort of listened to regular speed and you're sounding drunk.
Merlin: It's like, well, I probably was like, stop doing that.
Merlin: Don't listen to 35X.
Merlin: You're killing me.
Merlin: But you can get that feature.
Merlin: You can get something like what Marco has implemented where it skips silences intelligently to let you listen faster without horribly distorting it.
Merlin: But I think all those people, and let's be honest, that competition between different podcast player makers represents a very healthy environment.
Merlin: People who don't want to pay can go get a free app, no problem.
John: We don't have silences on our program.
Merlin: Is that something other programs have?
Merlin: If I edited the show in English,
Merlin: anyway, we might do that, but I'm not going to do that.
Merlin: I'm going to flip this thing around, man.
Merlin: I'm going to get it out.
Merlin: I can answer your question.
Merlin: I can answer your question.
Merlin: I'll try to answer your question quickly.
John: I just want to give them praise.
John: I want to single them out and say, one day when we look back and we tune in to the six podcasts, two of which are racist, and it costs $50 to do,
John: And you have to listen every 20 seconds.
John: You can only listen on Amazon Primecast.
John: And all the shows have embedded product placement.
John: So they're all more or less about chewing tobacco.
John: Can I take a minute to talk about Snapple?
John: Merlin, have you ever thought that maybe your hair was thinning?
John: Oh, my.
John: Mine isn't.
John: I've got a full head of hair.
John: Let me tell you why.
Merlin: I'm a lucky man.
Merlin: And you know what?
Merlin: I'm going to kiss a little bit of ass right here and just say that podcasting is famously a somewhat...
Merlin: opaque medium to get into like you can recommend things to people but there's so many shows where you're like i mean this is true for tv to some extent where you say oh gosh you know really stick with buffy because it gets better or you say like you know if you don't like the first couple episodes of the wire like don't worry like when they get to the episode where they say fuck a lot it's really good but like about the walking dead dude
John: Do you get that right away, or are you supposed to stick it out, or do you skip the last two seasons, or how do you do that?
Merlin: Oh, brother, we should put a fork in that.
Merlin: I'm off it.
Merlin: I'm off it.
Merlin: I'm totally off it.
Merlin: I never saw a single one, but people talked about it.
Merlin: Oh, the first few seasons are very good.
Merlin: But, you know, people who now are utilizing things like this ability to share a bit of audio and like give a little like sample on a toothpick.
Merlin: La la la.
John: Give a little bit.
Merlin: Give a little.
Merlin: You have a pie fight.
Yeah.
Merlin: So those people, those people that are sharing that, thank you.
Merlin: Because like, not just for me and my own ego, but like, it's really cool that you could say to somebody like, okay, this is this moment that, you know, in the show that I really like.
Merlin: So, God, I'm so sorry.
Merlin: We're never releasing this episode.
John: I know.
Merlin: At some point, we're going to have to.
Merlin: Something started a few years ago, and I'm trying not to cast an aspersion, but something started happening a few years ago that actually makes tons of sense, which is that people certainly realized that there was some money to be made from podcasts and ads.
Merlin: And so people started kind of like onesie-twosie running ads that got more popular.
Merlin: There started to be this emergence of the sponsors we know and love.
Merlin: So let me tell you a little bit about Squarespace.
Okay.
Merlin: This episode of Roderick on the line is brought to you in part by Squarespace.
Merlin: You can learn more about Squarespace right now by visiting squarespace.com slash super train.
Merlin: There are so many things that you can do with Squarespace.
Merlin: To begin with, you can create a beautiful website to turn your cool idea into a new site right on the internet.
Merlin: You can showcase your work.
Merlin: You can have a blog or publish other kinds of content.
Merlin: You can sell products and services of all kinds.
Merlin: You can promote your physical or online business.
Merlin: You can even announce an upcoming event or a special project.
Merlin: Whatever you wanna do, Squarespace has got you covered.
Merlin: And they do this by giving you beautiful templates that are created by world-class designers.
Merlin: They also have powerful e-commerce functionality that lets you sell anything online.
Merlin: We'll see you next time.
Merlin: And, of course, they have their 24 by 7 award-winning customer support.
Merlin: You know, I'm a huge fan of Squarespace.
Merlin: You're using Squarespace right now just by listening to the Roderick On The Line podcast.
Merlin: I've been using these folks for years, and I really trust them with my stuff, and I hope that you'll check them out.
Merlin: So right now, you can go over to squarespace.com slash supertrain for a free trial.
Merlin: And when you're ready to launch, you use the offer code SUPERTRAIN to save you 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Merlin: That's squarespace.com slash supertrain.
Merlin: Our thanks to Squarespace for supporting Roderick on the Line and all the great shows.
John: Have you ever... It's a new kind of hybrid.
John: Oh, no, you don't.
John: No.
John: Oh, am I not supposed to do that?
John: Read the red letters.
John: Oh, you don't get the copy.
John: You're going to get email.
Yeah.
John: We're going to have to do it again for free.
Merlin: But there was a problem of scale.
Merlin: That is the same kind of problem that a lot of new media run into, which is the problem of scale.
Merlin: If you want a big hybrid car sponsorship for your D&D show, you're not going to just be able to say, hey, hybrid company...
Merlin: Let me put an ad in.
Merlin: They want to, ad companies, bigger ad companies work by buying at scale.
Merlin: They've got a big budget.
Merlin: They don't want to have to go onesie twosie.
Merlin: And so you saw the emergence of what one might call middle persons.
John: Oh, the middle persons.
John: I remember when they arrived.
John: You know, the thing is, I'm not, you wouldn't describe me, would you Merlin?
John: Yes.
John: You wouldn't say John Roderick was an early podcaster.
John: Right.
John: You would say that I was a... It seems like now.
John: I wouldn't have said it then.
John: No, at the time, right, it seemed like, whoa, he's getting into this a little bit late.
John: But now it seems like, was this... I mean, you are famously, legendarily an early podcast.
John: Well...
John: When people say, like, what was happening in podcasting in the early days, they're going to say Scott Simpson and Lonely Sandwich and Merlin Man were making a classic program.
John: A lot of problematic bits.
John: Yeah, a very classic program that everyone should go back and just get it under their belt.
John: And then you and I started doing this program, and it was like, oh, what's this sort of Johnny-come-lately?
John: But we were in that space before anyone was making any money on it.
John: I remember the day you called me up and you were like... You had the video on.
John: Do you remember that?
John: Oh, yeah, the video.
John: And now... Oh, boy.
Merlin: So that happened.
Merlin: That wasn't terrible, but it's kind of a little bit like signing with a label in some ways where when you sign up with the middle persons, you agree to some terms that may not be too onerous, but you do agree to certain things.
Merlin: Some of those...
Merlin: I remember it differently, and I don't mean to interrupt you there.
John: No, no, I'm sorry.
Merlin: This is so fucking tedious.
John: I need you to change the topic or stop me.
John: So what I remember is that we have these relationships with certain companies.
John: We have the one who does not have a new kind of hybrid mattress.
John: Oh, my God.
John: Something else.
John: Some other thing.
John: Oh, my God.
John: And Squarespace, which hosts people.
John: And there were several others that were there in the early days that were great.
John: I can tell you're a huge fan of the show.
John: There was Max Temkin who came in for a while and was doing some advertisements.
John: And then the middlemen arrived, and it seemed to me like for the most part we had the same advertisements, but we were getting paid half as much.
John: Is that your, your memory?
John: It was like, it happened within a day or two.
Merlin: I don't want to say too much, but, but you know, but like, but then they have you sign a thing and you do a thing and like, it could include like any of those.
Merlin: Like if you sign with a label, there'd be some stuff in there.
Merlin: It's like, oh yeah, this is all the things I want.
Merlin: And then there's all this stuff.
Merlin: So like, that's kind of weird.
Merlin: So I'm one of those people that is by and large, mostly kind of sort of chosen to steer clear of like hugely weird contract things.
Merlin: But no, we, we've worked with folks like that.
Merlin: And it's, it's not a, it's not a bad thing.
Merlin: So let me get to the last part, which is on the one hand, those middle person companies increasingly became what they kind of always wanted to be, which is like a big platform company, right?
Merlin: Because you got to be a platform.
Merlin: It's not enough to just be a cool app.
Merlin: It's not enough to just, you know, have a mattress ad.
Merlin: You want to be like a platform because if you're a platform that includes an app, you now have a way of doing much better
Merlin: better and one might say more invasive tracking of how people listen to the show did they skip the ad all that kind of stuff that's been around for a little while it's only really been in the last year or so that that boy that really went to a new level was there's some very big players now with some very big wallets who have arrived big wallets big wallets and that's what we call them we call them the big wall here they come in the pocket of big wallet here comes the big wallets
John: How do they have room in that pocket for you?
John: They just get bigger pockets.
Merlin: They're in the pocket of big pockets.
John: Oh, they're in a pocket of a big wallet, because big wallets have pockets.
Merlin: You get big enough wallet, you can have whatever you want in it.
Merlin: That's the problem.
Merlin: So anyway, now those folks are doing stuff where like, okay, you sign up for this service, and we're going to, of course, include all the other great shows, but yeah.
Merlin: I mean, it's just weird.
Merlin: It's just weird because like, and to go back to my preamble, it's just that I, I, it's, it really is not strictly a like thing or strictly money thing.
Merlin: It's that like, there's so many ways that you can, you know, tragedy of the commons.
Merlin: I know that's a slightly, um, we've slightly abandoned that idea.
Merlin: Cause like I was a Nazi or whatever, but tragedy of the commons,
Merlin: You know, you're going to screw up this thing that everybody kind of likes.
Merlin: You're just peeing in the water fountain.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: And I don't want that to happen.
Merlin: I don't want to get messed up.
Merlin: Who are the good people?
Merlin: The good people are building upon the independence of this medium and helping more people get to it in a way that works for them.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: And then I think the people that maybe I don't want to signal boost as much, the access forces, are arriving as a truly Jonathan comes lately to come in and figure a way to put a cash register on something they're not even all that interested in.
Merlin: Yes, I've been noticing that.
Merlin: Yeah, I mean, it starts easy enough.
Merlin: It starts with stuff like you start seeing tons of like, okay, this week we're going to promote this episode of this other thing in your feed.
Merlin: And that's in all the feeds.
Merlin: And then that becomes like, you know, pretty soon all those little codicils that seem like no big deal a few years ago maybe start coming into play.
Merlin: Like, did you realize they, for example, re-host your podcast, which means you don't get actual statistics that you can give to a sponsor.
Merlin: Is that allowable?
Merlin: Well, you agreed to it.
Merlin: You signed it.
John: Oh, I see.
Merlin: You had your feet up on the desk, and then you signed it because you thought there was a limo full of handjobs.
John: Sure, you didn't read it all the way through.
Merlin: Yeah, and then so they can do stuff like, say, we can also do what's called dynamic ad insertion.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: We can, like, if you listen to this old episode, there'll be an ad for a new thing in there.
Merlin: And then, of course, the overcast links don't work anymore because the link to the podcast changed.
Merlin: Perfect, perfect.
Merlin: God damn it!
Merlin: This show's never going to come out.
John: Yeah, well, I wound you up, but that was... But that's going to be so bad for our list, John.
Merlin: You didn't get to give them very much of your wisdom, because I was told... No, no, no.
John: I'm sorry.
John: It's very important, because the game is afoot, and...
John: And it's – things are changing in my world a little bit in the sense that I'm making every attempt.
John: A year ago, a year and a half ago, I felt that maybe – because I have some friends.
John: I have a lot of friends that have humble shows.
John: that are great shows that people listen to the show because they are, there's an affinity there.
John: Like I have no idea.
John: I see people all the time.
John: They're like, Hey, if you're not listening to Roderick on the line, here's the one you start with.
John: And I'm just like, wow, really?
John: Yeah.
John: What is anybody who's not already listening to this program?
John: How are they going to listen to that?
John: How are they going to listen to uncle Licky and come out of it with anything other than like a need to like go, uh,
John: Go walk slowly into a pond.
John: Yeah.
John: But but I'll also say there are some some friends, some of these self same friends who also have big programs, programs where they do a show and it does not feel like the listenership is just people who would like to spend a weekend in a cabin with you.
John: But they are other people, people that I don't know, that none of us will ever know.
John: People who are out there making quinoa.
John: They are driving different kinds of cars than it would even occur to us to drive.
Mm-hmm.
John: And so these big programs, I was always a little envious, not a ton envious, but just as I was envious of the Decembrists' sales of their Her Majesty the Decembrist record and then increasingly all their other records.
John: Yeah.
John: So, too, was I say, for instance, you know, like a little covetous of the audience of some other shows.
John: And so I get I ventured into some new ventures.
John: And believe me, it was just like signing a record contract.
John: It was very much like I would like to have a show that had some appeal, had some appeal to an audience of people that maybe I would never know.
John: Because, you know, our program, for instance, has quite a few listeners who are in the sciences.
John: There are a lot of listeners who have been to XOXO.
John: Now, you can't do an entire show.
John: Well, that's not true.
John: There are shows where the listeners have only been to XOXO.
John: It's a solid Venn diagram.
John: Those might be makers.
John: But, you know, yeah, you and I have a lot of makers, but we also have people in Latvia.
John: We, you know, it's a thing, I guess, you know, but...
John: But I wanted a different kind of show.
John: I signed a major label record deal, and it has proved to be extremely problematic over time.
John: Whoa, really?
John: Is that okay to talk about it here?
John: Well, you know, you got to talk about things on this program.
John: We never really, or at least I never really pull my punches.
John: You pull your punches all the time.
Merlin: Oh, I love pulling a punch.
Merlin: It's like not posting.
Merlin: It's the biggest relief.
John: Just like you and I, it's like we have different personalities, and you are like, oh, I got a punch wound up, but I'm pulling it, and I go, I didn't even wind this punch up.
John: You're like Bruce Lee.
Merlin: You could do it from one inch away and send him tumbling.
John: This is Uma Thurman in a coffin.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: La, la, la.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: There's another foot shot I know.
Merlin: I know he's serious.
John: You gave that right to him.
Merlin: You signed on the line that is dotted.
John: Yeah.
John: 20 years ago, I watched a lot of people go into contracts with major entertainment companies.
John: And then later on, they had differing experiences.
Merlin: Sometimes those companies maybe got absorbed into other companies.
John: The guy that signed you got fired or moved to a different desk.
John: And nobody remembers you anymore.
Merlin: You're excited because you met the guy who played cowbell that one time in Boston.
Merlin: But he's been gone for two years.
Merlin: What is going on?
Merlin: Now I've got an 800 number I need to call.
John: He gave you $75,000 to make a record, but the guy that's sitting at his desk now has never heard of you and doesn't like the record.
Merlin: It's just literally covered with cocaine.
John: And that record ends up on a shelf that you never see again and never have access to.
John: Next to the Kiss solo albums.
John: It's right there.
John: It's right up on that shelf.
John: Cut out city.
John: Let me tell you, the tape has decayed now.
John: It is degraded and your record is gone.
John: So that was 20 years ago, you know, communion montanas.
Yeah.
John: So anyway, for a year and a half, I've been trying to be an independent person and convince the – this is – oh, this was the problem in the record days too where you're like, hey, major company, we're friends.
John: You guys took me out to dinner that time.
John: Like we're doing this as a thing for the world, right?
John: This is like we're doing this because we love doing this type of thing and you guys love it too.
John: I know.
John: Isn't that right?
John: And they go, absolutely.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: You don't hire a business manager because they're good at bowling.
Merlin: Normally, you hire them because they take care of the thing you can't or shouldn't get too far into because you don't have the expertise, right?
Merlin: Sometimes you're handing over that agency, literally, to someone because they have the expertise to make a better decision than you could.
John: But let me just say this.
John: You do not hire a business manager who came up in grocery business.
John: You hire a business manager who is in entertainment, who is in rock and roll because they wanted to be there, right?
John: Nobody came to prison and said, here's a jobs program.
John: Who wants to be in rock and roll?
John: These are people that came up.
John: They came up in the clubs, and maybe they were a little slimy then even, and everybody knew it, but you need that person.
John: So fast forward to now.
John: And it just, you know, it has just arrived at a place where it feels like one people's on one side of an equation are talking about podcasting as though it is a good thing.
John: And the other is talking about it like it is content to be promulgated in exchange for money.
John: And I don't and I want that.
John: I wanted it to be promulgated in exchange for money, but not at the expense of it being a good thing.
John: Right.
John: So anyway, tough talk.
John: I'm sorry I'm giving you some tough talk, but it's tough.
John: It's been very tough.
John: A year and a half of very tough times.
John: And it's just – so here we are.
Merlin: Yeah, and I mean I think what you're describing gets to what I was struggling to describe, which is – I'll just avoid the analogies, which is that – what am I going to say?
John: Well, you're going to have to pause now because here we are.
Merlin: I'm inside the coffin.
Merlin: Let's say you got a little food co-op, a little grocery store where it's very important to you to have well-sourced ingredients and all the things and have that smell that all those places have.
Merlin: And you get your, I don't know, whole wheat pasta and stuff like that.
Merlin: But then somebody comes along who not only... Are there bins in this place?
Merlin: There's so many bins and the rats just go shit all inside of those at night.
John: Raw honey inside.
Merlin: You got into that racket because at a basic level, you like food and you like making the connection between food and the people who want that particular food, but you've also got an angle.
Merlin: And your angle is like, this is different from the other kinds of food.
Merlin: And in fact, the whole reason we did this instead of just drive to a J Random supermarket chain is we want to offer something that's special and unique for us that we think there's a market for with other people.
Merlin: It's not without money, but like the whole...
Merlin: core value of what we're doing is this thing that makes us different.
Merlin: And like what you wouldn't want in that case is somebody who comes in and like at the very least isn't somebody who enjoys food.
Merlin: It isn't somebody who like shares your value on what makes you different.
Merlin: What if in fact somebody came in
Merlin: you know, some kind of like a dastardly mustache twirling person who not only thought that the way you were doing it is at crossed purposes with how a business should be run.
Merlin: And then they, but they tell you we're there to just manage this better for you.
Merlin: But if the thing you can't detect is that sometimes you can't detect that that person coming in who used to be the vice president of TV programming and microwave somewhere like shows up
Merlin: And like what they want to do and are not telling you is antithetical.
Merlin: What they want is to ruin the postal without coming out the rotten feces.
Merlin: And then that's bad because you don't discover that immediately and you already signed on the line that is dotted and a little later you're going to go bad on me.
Merlin: Like I didn't realize how much they wanted to come in.
Merlin: And, you know, there's a there's a thing that I I'm still very bad at negotiating.
Merlin: But like one thing I realized is there are certain kinds of negotiation where you lose a lot of power once you say yes.
Merlin: And like you need to realize when you have agreed to a yes.
Merlin: where there's not really any turning back.
Merlin: And some people, let's just say, maybe it's somebody who wants to be signed to a label.
Merlin: Maybe it's somebody who wants a giant scale podcast, but like they're so excited to say yes because of what they think it is that they have not done the due diligence to uncover.
Merlin: And this sounds like FUD.
Merlin: And I don't mean it that way, the fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
Merlin: I don't mean that that way, but like that's the problem is they're not going to come out and say, well, here's my real plan.
Merlin: And then they show you all the red yarn on the wall where they're going to ruin your pasta.
John: Well, now, this is a thing that I saw in the in the rock days where and let me just caution everyone who's listening to watch out for this, which is when somebody comes to you with a contract where success is presumed and you spend a lot of time negotiating the contract with the thought in mind that what you're trying to do is get the best possible terms once your thing is extremely successful.
John: Which everyone presumes.
John: Everyone presumes in going into the contract, oh, this relationship is going to produce a hit, a hit record, so we need to hammer out who gets the money.
John: And you sit there in that and you're like, I'm going to get the best terms possible because I don't want to lose a penny of the money once it starts rolling in.
John: But what the contract actually is for you is a thing to protect you if it isn't a huge success but is a moderate success.
John: And this is a thing that no one wants to talk about when you're sitting in front of the contract.
John: Because the people on the other side of it are trying to convince you that if you sign with them, it's going to be a huge success.
John: That's why you're coming.
Merlin: They're highlighting, they may be, I don't want to sound cynical, but they may be heavily highlighting the parts of it that they know motivate you the most.
John: Yeah, and they're like, oh, do you want some money?
John: Well, we're going to try and take some of that money too.
Merlin: Pretty soon they're drinking your milkshake because you thought it was about your good farmland, but they really want the mineral rights.
Merlin: And that was not clear to you.
John: Well, so, and what happens is, and this happens in rock and roll, and it happens, I guess, now in podcasting because it does happen, which is that you have a moderate success.
John: What would be, if you had remained independent, a pretty great success, even an enormous success, but by the terms of the big wallets,
John: It's just a moderate success because they're shooting for the fences every time.
John: Every time they swing a bat, it's for the fences.
John: And if your ball doesn't get to the fences, they're not interested in picking up singles and doubles.
John: They're not playing that game.
John: They're not playing small ball.
John: No.
John: And so what you realize then is you signed a contract where –
John: A moderate success is actually a failure.
John: Oh, God, yes.
John: But you did not maintain – because you weren't thinking about it.
John: There are a couple of things.
John: First of all, you do not look within the contract for anything that says –
Merlin: you the big wallets are obligated to try to make the show a success beyond just the initial rollout like can it be in some ways sometimes doesn't it come down to being as simple as at least i'm sorry steve albini uh see if anything we're like you you may not realize that what you're really doing is taking out a loan and not realizing it you're taking out a loan i mean be honest isn't it kind of a thing where they're like here's 75 000 that you owe us now
John: There's some of that, but there's also the thing of like, this is the Sub Pop thing, right?
John: Where Sub Pop put out 50 records a year, but they only supported three of them because you put a record out.
Merlin: Was it Zumpano, John?
John: It was not Zumpano.
John: They did not pour the money into Zumpano.
John: They're going through change.
John: They didn't pour the money into the Scud Mountain Boys either.
John: They were waiting for a postal service.
John: They were waiting for a band of horses.
John: And so you throw you throw 50 records at the wall and you and you wait to see which one sticks.
John: And then you turn so much like venture capital.
John: You just put your resources there.
John: And the rest of the things that came out that are great records, amazing records who were psyched to be on sub pop.
John: find themselves in a van in Dayton, Ohio, and they can't get anybody on the phone anymore because everybody there, because this is a small shop, everybody there is working on the Postal Service records.
John: Which is a good record.
John: It's a great record.
John: So you don't ever think within the space of negotiating the contract when they're saying like, well, when this is a $500 million podcast, let's figure out how we're going to divide up the pie.
John: You don't say, what if this is a 50 to 75,000 download podcast?
John: How am I protected that that, which would be, if I were independent, would be a big earner?
John: How am I protected over here?
John: Because they go, oh, don't worry about that.
John: That's their answer.
John: They go, don't worry about that.
John: You're going to be making hundreds of millions of dollars.
Merlin: At this point, it's important to remember that you're not the one who wrote and presented the contract.
John: Right.
John: And you say, you have to say, well, wait a minute.
John: Because if, let's say my thing, let's say I make a Zumpano record.
John: Am I not going to be able to get anybody on the phone?
John: Are you guys just going to move on to the next thing and not really try at all?
John: You don't ever think to ensure that the company is obligated to try.
John: And so you end up sitting there in a kind of state.
John: Where you, you know, because when you start to do a show, as you say, you don't just say like, hey, why don't we do a show on erectile dysfunction?
John: Every episode will be about erectile dysfunction and we'll get all the erectile dysfunction ads.
John: You don't think to do that.
John: You think, why don't I make a super interesting podcast with my friend that's fun to do?
Merlin: And the folks who historically have done that, I saw this, of course, a lot in blogging, is you get people that are doing the equivalent of like, what are the most popular SEO keywords this quarter?
Merlin: And then like coming up with what they think that content will be.
Merlin: And that's rarely a harbinger of evergreen goodness.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Just as a contra is like when people do do that, it's rarely something that's going to make me stop listening to one show and start listening to theirs.
John: Yes.
Merlin: So you're not – one feels vulnerable.
John: Yes.
John: And the problem is that the big companies also don't – it doesn't cost them anything.
Merlin: to uh to just have your thing like it doesn't cost sub pop anything to ignore the zumpano record you know what i mean it it costs zumpano everything and it costs two different two different ways of like holding a part of the elephant like to them it's like after those two amazing albums and so many great singles it's like okay well you know where are we now do you have do you have my back for what happens next
Merlin: which has certainly been around since, you know, since time immemorial with like, I'm not saying sub pups, a skeezy label.
Merlin: I'm just saying that- Not at all, not at all.
Merlin: No, no, but I am saying like, certainly there are, so let's look at Badfinger.
Merlin: Let's not look at Badfinger, but like, that makes me sad.
Merlin: But there are certainly numerous examples of things in the past where even after you've gotten the big success, if that next one's not a dinger, you know, like Tom Petty says, you know, I don't hear a single, you know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Like, you're going to get a different response.
Merlin: There's something I remember hearing, I want to hear the rest of this, but I don't know what made me think of this this weekend, probably listening to a podcast, but I remember hearing, I think this was about, I want to say, maybe like a 90s Michael Jackson album, but the particulars don't matter super much, except that it was back in a time when like...
Merlin: I think it was Michael Jackson, because it was pretty much like a guaranteed hit machine, you know, sort of thing.
Merlin: Certainly, Thriller was disruptive in innumerable ways, not least that I think all but like, wasn't almost every song on there eventually like a successful single?
Merlin: Like it was, it was like beyond a four quadrant success.
Merlin: It was the best-selling record forever and ever, and Bad did well.
Merlin: But I remember at one point in like, in the industry chatter, the discussion was, okay, this latest Michael Jackson album
Merlin: Like, whatever.
Merlin: It only went to number N. Like, it didn't immediately go to number one.
Merlin: And so, like, this is going to be a failure.
Merlin: And, like, a ding-a-ling like me sitting in Florida going, like, well, that seems crazy.
Merlin: Like, for anybody else to have accomplished what this guy just did with this album would be, like, it would be a bananas level of success.
Merlin: But you know what I wasn't accounting for that was explained in the trade things was, like, well, you know what it cost?
Merlin: to get that album to that shitty chart position yeah do you know like so you so you you got you got uh you got thriller you got bad right you see this this curve like it's bad i mean weird al is doing a parody of you you know i mean look at the knack they really that means you that means you've made it right but that was when michael jackson knew like that's when he knew i've arrived but anyway just the short to finish the shorter version it's like well thing is
Merlin: the marketing that went into buying those end caps at record bar, like all, all of the promotional stuff that went into this.
Merlin: And this certainly goes today for movies where like, this should be a franchise that does really great.
Merlin: And like, yeah, it did by like dingaling a Florida boy standards.
Merlin: It did great, but not by CBS records or Epic standards.
Merlin: Was this a,
Merlin: If you balance the columns of what we spent in literal money before this came out to guarantee this success as a number one record, if it's anything but a number one record, we have failed.
Merlin: And now we're already underwater on this album because what it costs to make it.
Merlin: We haven't even gotten to what kind of incredible deal presumably Michael Jackson had on points and stuff like that.
Merlin: But that's something that seems like a giant success to us may not seem like a giant success to that company just because of what the expectations and budget were for getting it where they thought it would be.
John: Well, but, you know, the first two Aerosmith records, including the first one, which had the song Dream On, they didn't sell.
John: They didn't sell anything.
John: The Columbia Records didn't really push them.
John: They were busy.
John: They were busy pushing Bruce Springsteen.
John: who was the new artist that they cared about.
Merlin: And alongside being just torn apart critically.
John: Yeah, nobody liked Aerosmith.
John: They thought they were a cheap Rolling Stones knockoff.
Merlin: Remember the quote?
Merlin: Aerosmith is a good and interesting band.
Merlin: A good and original band.
Merlin: Unfortunately, all the stuff that's good isn't original, and all the stuff that's original isn't good.
John: Oh, ouch.
Merlin: Postposably.
John: Burn.
Merlin: First two records.
John: But here's the thing about Aerosmith.
John: Somehow, because of the way the music industry worked at the time, they did not get dropped by the label.
John: And they continued to get, they made a big record.
John: They put it out, expensive record, put it out, didn't.
John: They made a second record, put it out, didn't click.
John: And these guys are, you know, just in feather boas alone.
John: They are running up a big tab.
John: Bruce Springsteen's over here with a big floppy hat, thinking about Rosarita, who wants to come and light his fire.
John: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: They're ready to cut that bitch off.
John: Yeah.
John: And these guys over here are just like, wow.
John: And then they talk about your scarf budget.
John: They come.
John: They put out this toys in the attic record and everybody just goes bananas for it.
John: And then they're back.
John: And then Dream On is up on the charts.
John: You know, like people, whoever it was at that label, there was somebody there was somebody in a stay pressed suit who was like, listen, I believe in these kids.
John: And I don't think those people really exist anymore.
John: I don't think they have for a long time because there's not the concentration, there's not a consolidation of capital like there was then.
John: Right now, the capital is very diffuse.
John: Everybody's just looking for the fast return, quick return, quick, quick, quick.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Boy, we haven't gotten into stuff like the impact of streaming.
Merlin: stuff.
Merlin: There's a really good podcast that I like a lot that might be even too nerdy for you.
Merlin: It's called Hit Parade.
Merlin: It's called Hit Parade.
Merlin: It's a Slate podcast that comes out once a month because the guy who does it is such an, I mean, I mean this in the best possible way.
Merlin: He's such a charts nerd and music nerd that he so thoroughly researches something, like some interesting, particularly an interesting week on the Billboard charts where something fascinating happened or changed.
Merlin: And so he has all these theme episodes.
Merlin: His first episode, which is a good introduction, is basically the history of Red Red Wine, which is even more, I mean, I knew the basics.
Merlin: I knew it was a Neil Diamond song.
Merlin: But, you know, so he goes through and he talks about this stuff.
Merlin: And, you know, it's, boy, what a crazy goddamn racket.
Merlin: Anyway, sorry I took you off again, didn't I?
John: Well, here's the thing about Red Red Wine.
John: It's a terrible song, and I hope I never hear it again.
John: And the fact that you just said the words mean that two days from now I'm going to be lying in bed, and I'm going to hear that.
John: absolutely terrible UB40 version of it.
John: And it's going to... I think Me Spliff is actually a better tune, personally.
John: It was so ubiquitous for whatever reason.
John: I don't know why that was... The one with Chrissy Hine singing backup vocals, I don't know why that needed to be whatever it was for people at the time.
John: Why did that need to be that?
John: There were other things that could have been that.
John: You could have done anything in that moment...
John: Other than play that.
John: It's like, see, it's already there.
John: It's like this.
John: It's just shitting on the two and the four.
John: So, so what I'm trying.
John: is that I want to be able to do a thing that I like with my friends that's fun that is moderately successful.
John: I no longer want to shoot my arrows at the sun.
John: I no longer want to run a four-minute mile.
John: I do not want to go.
John: I don't want to light my cigar with $100 bills.
John: I don't even care about the fact that I have two cars, both of which are just about to catch on fire, and it could happen at any time.
John: I just want to make the things that I like to do with my friends.
John: So, for instance, Roderick on the line is a thing that I've done for now a long time with my friend.
John: And it's just a fun thing that we do.
John: This is going to be problematic.
John: And road work over there.
John: And this guy over here.
John: And this guy says no soup.
John: And you know what we say now?
John: This guy says no soup.
John: You know what I mean?
John: It's no soup.
John: And we don't inflect it.
John: We just say no soup, right?
John: You can have white sauce on a garbage can lid.
Merlin: Not a problem.
Merlin: So I want here.
Merlin: You want a moderately successful thing with your pals that can also keep your cars from setting themselves on fire.
John: From suddenly being on fire, right?
John: And that doesn't seem, knowing what I know, which admittedly is not a lot, it does not seem impossible because that's what I have with my record, too.
John: My Long Winter's records are...
John: If you can believe this and wait for it, they continue to pay me money for those.
Merlin: Oh, that's hurtful, John.
John: Which are old.
John: They're old records, Merlin.
John: No, but it's not like they're flying off the shelves, but they continue to generate a small amount of money.
John: And, you know, I know that's true of the NADA surf records.
John: I know that's true of a lot of records that were on small independent labels where they had good deals and they didn't spend a ton of money trying to shoot their arrows at the moon.
Merlin: Not as complicated.
Merlin: What's the one I was listening to this weekend?
Merlin: I even tutored about this.
Merlin: I shouldn't post.
Merlin: I was listening to The Proximity Effect, which is a really good record.
John: Oh, it's a nice album.
Merlin: But I mean, at the time, that must have been, I haven't read about it, but I'm guessing that was probably hugely disappointing to whoever it was because it didn't have that one hit on it.
John: You know what I mean?
John: Well, I mean, who was it disappointing to is the question.
John: Because there was somebody at the label, let's say, and I know
John: I know a thing or two about this label.
John: There was somebody at that label who wanted to make good things.
John: And whether he was kidding himself or not, whether he never heard of this label, whether it was whether it was a lie, whether that person was lying to themselves or not, what they would say in the time and now was I'm super proud of that record.
John: I'm glad we put it out.
John: It did great.
John: And and wanting it to be any better would be that would be foolish.
John: Why would you want.
Merlin: it to be anything more than it was and you know that is not how you get venture capital right no you're right I mean that's the reason I said that in passing is not my basic understanding of venture capital is that first of all it's not for rookies and noobs it's not for people who are planning to like are hoping to get something for their retirement it's for people with enough excess dough that they can basically try to fill all the spots on the roulette wheel and hope that one of them pays big
Merlin: Kind of.
Merlin: I mean, I don't know if that's entirely true, but I think that that's a model that emerges in a lot of stuff nowadays.
John: As I said the other day on Twitter, and honestly, I didn't need to post this.
John: Oh, no, John.
John: But I said, because, and the thing is, I posted something, you know, right around this time where it just seemed like a thing that I was going to post.
John: It was just slightly more contentious than normal.
John: I didn't need to post it.
John: And I got like 10 really angry emails from, or really angry follow-up tweets from,
John: from millenniums who took it to be a criticism of them.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: I think they're a little sensitive about stuff like that at this point.
Merlin: I don't know the one you're referring to, but I think they feel a little bit put upon, a lot of the millennials.
John: I didn't mention them by name.
John: I was talking more generally, but I referenced a common trope that they believed was speaking about them, and the people that replied often believed that I was speaking about them personally.
John: Or at least that's how it seemed.
John: That's definitely a thing that happens.
John: When somebody says something, it's got to be about me.
John: Oh, it's got to be about me, right?
John: I'm sitting over here and I read this thing and I take it very personally and I'm very mad about being called out for this thing by a guy I don't know and I've never met and is not talking about me at all.
John: But the one before that, and I didn't get as much blowback from this and I think you'll know why.
John: I said, nobody needs a $49 million house.
John: I think a $26 million house is plenty for anyone except someone with a really big family.
John: And, you know, it's funny at a couple levels.
John: It takes a second.
John: I mean, I don't want to praise my own tweet, but it takes a second to build.
John: You know, you sit there and you go, hmm.
John: And then it's like, oh, haha.
John: It's not meant to be anything other than, oh.
John: I like a little journey.
John: I do.
John: It's a thing, right?
John: And that's how I feel about venture capitalists because they've got a $26 million house and for whatever reason, it's not enough.
John: They want a $49 million house.
John: And honestly, I don't have the tweet in front of me.
John: I might have said $46 million and $29 million.
John: It could have gone either way.
John: But I think the point still stands.
John: And what I don't understand is if you had enough money, even for a $26 million house, I think you could buy a dirigible.
John: Oh, my God.
John: If you could buy your own dirigible and just put like a king size bed in the back, hire a captain, maybe a couple of crew.
John: and just take a dirigible tour of the United States.
John: Oh, my God.
John: No one has done it, and why not?
John: There are billionaires.
John: You don't need to build a competitive rocket.
Merlin: We've already got that.
John: We've got so many of them.
Merlin: Oh, my God, but a dirigible that would take you around these United States.
John: That kid that came up with Snapchat, that was just like some rich kid, and he immediately inhabited the role of crazy...
John: tech entrepreneur.
John: He's 26 years old and he's walking around in his pajamas or whatever.
John: No, no, no.
John: What it was was he had cashmere t-shirts.
John: Cashmere t-shirts that cost $1,800, but it looked like a t-shirt.
John: It's just like, okay, you're the guy.
John: He's a man of the people.
John: He's a man of the people and he's buying up all of Venice Beach.
John: And I'm like, kid, cash out.
John: Sell your thing to somebody.
John: He could...
John: Buy a dirigible.
John: He could have a replica of the Hindenburg, except instead of swastikas, it would have like peace signs.
John: And then just park it off the coast of Santa Monica.
John: And just idle there.
John: Just idle there for a year.
John: Everyone in L.A.
John: would have to confront the fact.
John: If you want to have an $1,800 T-shirt, the best $1,800 T-shirt is that everyone in L.A.
John: is looking at your fucking dirigible.
Merlin: Your dirigible.
Merlin: Let's be honest.
Merlin: The climate there is very sunny.
Merlin: You are going to cast literally a large shadow with your dirigible.
Merlin: Just like fly over L.A.
John: at one mile an hour.
Merlin: Oh, man.
Merlin: That would be such a gentle way to travel.
Merlin: That sounds so great.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: uh i do um sometimes we need to talk about you know we've talked a lot about cocaine on this show we sure have and i think i feel like at some point we need to speculatively name speculative names and i'm gonna tell you what i mean i i feel like we should go through some stuff and we should talk about
Merlin: who certainly so many of all the great records were basically made of cocaine as we said entirely of cooking how many how many of the albums do you think got or stayed successful because of the role of cocaine i'm thinking of that episode wkrp where johnny fever gets the album from from the uh the like i don't know an anr guy whatever whatever you call it
Merlin: and it's got an album in it, and then a bag of cocaine falls out.
Merlin: They call it payola.
Merlin: I'm not saying we should do it now.
Merlin: We probably shouldn't even post right now.
Merlin: But I wonder, can you think of any albums that you're pretty sure were not only probably made of cocaine, but were basically, much like a Zeppelin, were supported by cocaine?
John: Well, here's one that I've always been curious about, which is...
John: We we like Peter Gabriel.
John: We like to think of him.
John: He's one of the good artists.
John: Right.
John: Peter Gabriel.
John: Normally, when you think of you think of the question, what records were made by cocaine?
John: You think about Warren's Cherry Pie or something like that, where you feel like the record is bad.
John: And the band is bad.
John: And so you can disparage them further by saying that it was cocaine made.
John: But we also know that there are some really great Neil Young albums that were made under the influence of cocaine.
John: Oh, yes.
John: And you know, heroin is no better than cocaine.
John: And we like an awful lot of albums that were made under the influence of heroin.
John: Okay, okay.
John: But here we go with Peter Gabriel.
John: Do you think, what if I told you,
John: that Shock the Monkey was made out of cocaine.
Merlin: Shock the... It's very... It does have a certain energy to it.
Merlin: It's got big cocaine energy.
Merlin: It's very erratic.
John: Shock the Monkey!
John: Now, I'm not saying it was made of cocaine, because I don't have any firsthand experience.
John: But here's a record that we like...
John: I mean, what if all the Kate Bush records were made from cocaine and were sold by cocaine?
John: Sold by cocaine?
John: I'm not saying that's what happened.
John: No, no, no.
John: This is speculative.
John: Yeah, but what if?
John: What if?
John: So it's not just Warren's Cherry Pie.
John: We're looking at some beloved albums.
John: Okay.
John: What if, let's say, The Color of Spring...
John: Was... Is that Stravinsky?
John: No, that's Talk Talk.
Merlin: Oh, Talk Talk.
Merlin: Talk Talk's like a Skritti Politti.
Merlin: They're like a better band than everybody thinks.
John: That's right.
John: Talk Talk Talk Talk.
John: All you do to me is Talk Talk, except they did a lot more than that.
John: They made some amazing albums, a couple at least.
John: And so anyway, I feel like there was an awful lot of cocaine.
John: It was not regarded as a vice, except...
John: Well, you see this a lot in rock and roll.
John: Things that used to be okay aren't okay anymore.
John: Oh, you think?
John: Oh, yes.
John: And the thing is, nobody is really mad about cocaine.
John: They're not saying cocaine used to be good and now it's bad.
John: Oh.
John: They tried to do that in the 80s.
John: Right.
John: No, they're saying other things used to be okay and now are bad.
John: And nobody even really seems to care about cocaine.
Merlin: I keep failing utterly at trying to come up with examples of this, irrespective of the cocaine consumed during the making, writing, fornicating of the album.
Merlin: I mean, I keep falling short because I'm like, what, like Hall and Oates?
Merlin: No, actually Hall and Oates were amazing.
Merlin: Well, but cocaine does not preclude amazing.
Merlin: Does not preclude – but like in terms of like we need this – see, and I'm going to take them out of this because I don't want to tar them with this.
Merlin: But like you get – oh, like a Paul Young.
Merlin: A Paul Young, not maybe doing the cocaine, but do you think maybe and every time you go away, which was written by Daryl Hall, do you think and every time you go away might have been propped up by a little bit of bag in the sleeve?
Merlin: Is that possible?
John: You take a piece of my – Pino Palladino.
Merlin: Pino Palladino was the fretless bass player on that.
John: Pinot Paladino.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Also, I'm going to tear your playhouse down.
John: There's so much.
John: There's so much cocaine.
John: It even goes unto the future.
John: I'm not going to say...
John: the name of one of your favorite bands.
John: Oh no.
John: There was cocaine later.
John: Not early, not early.
Merlin: In the selling of that, you think, you think a deer 23 runs on cocaine, like in terms of getting it past the sound scan.
John: What I have noticed, what I have noticed is that we go in cycles.
John: We go in rock and roll and then we cycle out of rock and roll and we go to dance music and then we cycle out of dance music.
John: We come back to rock and roll and it's happened several times in my career.
Merlin: I just sang you the song Gloria earlier by Laura Branigan, which came out in 1982, and it's a disco song.
Merlin: It's totally a disco song.
Merlin: New order, disco band, disco band.
John: Yes, that's absolutely right.
John: Even Modest Mouse is kind of a disco band.
John: Kind of a disco band.
John: So we alternate between these two things.
John: When the world goes into dance bands,
John: What you got is cocaine.
Merlin: Okay.
John: I see.
John: When the world goes back into like rock and roll where guys are wearing big hats and feather boas, now you're into downers.
John: You're into pills.
John: Oh, wow.
John: And you're into junk.
John: And I don't know whether it's just coming from Afghanistan and they're like, oh, we had a couple of down years and so Americans listen to dance music.
John: Or whether, I don't know.
John: I don't know supply from demand.
John: No.
John: But I've seen it happen here in Seattle where it's like, oh, everybody's a junkie.
John: And then it's like, oh, everybody's a tweaker.
John: How did that happen?
John: Weren't we all junkies?
John: And then it's like, I guess we're tweakers.
John: I was like, oh, no, who are these junkies that are making?
John: And so you just go round and round, round and round.
Merlin: Oh, there you go.
John: Oh, boy.
John: Totally a cocaine album.
Merlin: Totally a cocaine.
Merlin: I saw them open for Billy Squire.
John: I saw them open for Johnny... Ronnie James... I was about to say Johnny Rhames Dio.
Merlin: Johnny Ray Dio?
John: But it was Ronnie James Dio.
Merlin: The librarian at our daughter's school looks like Ronnie James Dio.
Really?
Merlin: She's kind of little.
John: Mike Squires, friend of the program, on his fantastic YouTube series Couch Riffs, just had Vivian Campbell.
Merlin: Shut your mouth!
John: Wait, he was on the program?
John: He was on the program and he sat with Mike and he played ZZ Top on his couch.
Merlin: Oh my god, I gotta get back on Instagram.
Merlin: Oh my god.
John: Who played on Last in Line?
Merlin: He played on Rainbow in the Dark and then was he in Death Leopard?
John: He's in Left Def Leppard.
Merlin: He's in Left Def Leppard right now.
Merlin: Currently.
Merlin: Did Mike ask him about the cocaine?
John: No.
John: No, no, no.
John: Mike's a member of the rock and roll fraternity.
John: There are things they don't talk about.
John: Oh, it's Omer Ta.
John: You know, it always brings me down.