Ep. 379: "Garbage Island"
Merlin: Hello.
Merlin: Hi, John.
John: Hi, Merlin.
John: How's it going?
John: It's going pretty chill.
John: Pretty darn chill, actually.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Just keeps going, doesn't it?
John: It does.
John: It does.
John: It keeps going and going and going and going.
Merlin: Can I ask you a question?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Are you noticing any animal differences?
Merlin: Of aminals?
Merlin: Aminals.
Merlin: Are you noticing any differences?
John: Yes.
John: There are 1,100 million rabbits.
Mm-hmm.
Merlin: I'm noticing a lot more in louder birds.
Merlin: I'm noticing much more aggressive raccoons.
Merlin: Oh, interesting.
Merlin: I've had two raccoon encounters in the last two days.
Merlin: Really?
Merlin: Yep.
Merlin: Tell me more.
Merlin: We're very into projects right now.
Merlin: We're improving our space.
Merlin: We're cleaning things.
Merlin: We're re-cleaning things.
Merlin: A lot of our projects involve tidying, improvements, these kinds of things.
Merlin: Sure, order.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Well, I have a topic here to potentially talk about, which I'm calling controlling space.
Merlin: okay there's a lot of space controlling going on right now okay so one of our projects i think i might have mentioned to you is we're uh we've got an area out back we call the yard and you've been in the yard and you've been videotaped in the yard and many times it's kind of a yard and kind of a garden and uh every few years we go through and we kind of like do like a project so we've been doing a project especially the kid and me where we're uh making this kind of white trash heaven in our backyard i know we don't say that anymore are you
John: Are you doing what we used to do, which is sit back there and smoke cigars together?
John: Not as much as I'd like.
John: I wait until she goes to bed now.
Merlin: We've got a fire pit.
Merlin: We've got solar-powered fairy lights.
Merlin: We've got those boomer lights that make a path.
Merlin: We stick them in the ground, and you get a path made out of solar lights.
Merlin: Yep, yep.
Merlin: And so we've been doing a lot of that.
Merlin: And one thing we do with our fire pit is you make s'mores.
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: So we made some s'mores.
Merlin: And, of course, because of the pandemic, you can't be picky.
Merlin: You know, you want the jumbos.
Merlin: You'll settle for the mediums, but sometimes you get the minis.
Merlin: So we've got mini marshmallows.
Merlin: Yeah, you take whatever you can.
Merlin: Mini marshmallows are hard to do for a s'more, and so we're having to use technology.
Merlin: Long story short, we had left some, really, she's there for the chocolate.
Merlin: And the marshmallow, sometimes the graham cracker gets left behind, sometimes some mini marshes.
Merlin: And I heard the dogs next door going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Merlin: I look out and there's this undeterred raccoon just going ham on some fucking marshmallows in the backyard.
Merlin: I was like, you'll see that every day.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: I think that's kind of cool.
Merlin: Last night, we were getting ready.
Merlin: As I mentioned, we're cleaning.
Merlin: We had a junk pickup today.
Merlin: No contact.
Merlin: No contact junk pickup.
Merlin: Of course not.
Merlin: Of course not.
Merlin: But I'm down in the garage, and I made what I call garbage island, which is when I put all the trash in the middle of the garage and then use duct tape to make a big square around it and an arrow to indicate for the touchless pickup, this is garbage island.
Merlin: Please take all this away.
John: I can see it perfectly in my mind, and you're very wise to eliminate all opportunity for doubt.
John: If it's inside the box, it's Garbage Island.
Merlin: Garbage Island.
Merlin: And I appreciate you saying that because I feel like this is one of the things as a middle-aged man I'm not appreciated for is the elegance with which I disambiguate in life.
John: It's wonderful because so many times, just in recent memory, I can think of two instances where someone was meant to take some things to the dump or the goodwill and they took more money.
Merlin: or different things than they were intended to yes and that can be a real tragedy a point they keep returning to in making of a murderer is not only is this bad because this guy went to jail for something he didn't do but the corollary is that while he was in jail for the thing he didn't do guess what there's another guy out there that keeps doing the bad stuff because they think they got their guy
Merlin: So that's why you make Garbage Island.
Merlin: It is important that you take these things.
Merlin: And it's perhaps even more important you not take these things.
Merlin: And as a consequence, I'll send you a photo.
Merlin: I made Garbage Island.
Merlin: I'm down there last night.
Merlin: Let's be honest, I had some drinks.
Merlin: But I'm finishing things up.
Merlin: I'm getting ready for the pickup this morning.
Merlin: The window is between 9 and 11.
Merlin: And I want Garbage Island to be perfect.
Merlin: I turn around.
Merlin: And the garage door is open.
Merlin: And there's a big fucking raccoon just eyeballing me from about three feet away.
Merlin: The hell you say?
Merlin: What time of day is this?
Merlin: Undeterred.
John: What time of day is this?
Merlin: This is at probably 8.30 p.m.
John: Oh, so that's prime raccoon hour.
John: You know it, baby.
John: Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Merlin: So he's like, you're the marshmallow guy, aren't you?
Merlin: Oh, I know you, Johnny Marshmallow.
Merlin: I'm your neighbor.
Merlin: Hey, buddy.
Merlin: You're the guy with the graham crackers.
Merlin: Can I borrow a cup of garbage?
Merlin: Is there food garbage in Garbage Island?
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: I mean, first of all, I don't want to get too detailed, but the Garbage Island is constituted by many elements.
Merlin: It's like Walt Whitman.
Merlin: It contains multitudes.
Merlin: It's got three giant contractor bags of trash from my office because, as you know, I don't have trash pickup and I have to deal with that.
Merlin: We also have many, many, many, many boxes, most of which I've broken down, which they appreciate and compliment me for.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: The 800 junk guys are very glad handy.
Merlin: But I guess what I'm trying to say is that this is, to my knowledge, the first time.
Merlin: And I use my garage.
Merlin: And this is the first time we've gotten a raccoon quite this close and quite this undeterred.
Merlin: I think it might be a mama.
Merlin: There are families in the park where the Confederate soldiers are, you know, across the street.
Merlin: And they've got babies and they cross the street.
Merlin: They see them cross the street together.
Merlin: It's really cute.
John: This is a baby raccoon season, too.
John: It's spring.
John: All the babies.
John: Is that a fact?
John: You said they got mouths to feed.
John: That's exactly right.
John: There's babies everywhere now.
John: This is high baby time.
John: That's why I'm seeing so many rabbits, too.
John: Babies everywhere.
Merlin: I mean, I'm not about to be one of these dorks that goes, oh, the earth is healing.
Merlin: It's cool that they have less pollution in Los Angeles.
Merlin: It's interesting that oil is $3 a barrel as we record this.
Merlin: That's pretty interesting.
Merlin: But I don't know.
Merlin: I think I'm not the only person who noticed this.
Merlin: Now, I'm prepared to say that there is some kind of a cognitive bias here, which is that maybe I just didn't notice birds before.
Merlin: That's my favorite Bright Eyes album, Notice Birds.
Merlin: And so anyway, I just want to put that out to you.
Merlin: Because it seems to me, John Roderick, that you are a person who notices aminals.
Merlin: You interact with aminals.
Merlin: Your relationship or lack of relationship with animals has caused you unease.
Merlin: At times you've had to deal.
Merlin: Well, I mean, if that, if that were really an, a pop awesome that had been down in your, in your, uh, in your, in your den.
John: Oh yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: Remember that story?
John: Sure.
Merlin: If the one time, one time you didn't get up to see if it was an animal or a ghost, the one time you did not rouse out of bed.
Merlin: on your disgusting purple mattress, rouse out of bed, dash, throw up the shutter and put you in the sash, tear a house down the stairs to find the ghost or a popossum.
Merlin: One time.
Merlin: One time.
Merlin: And then they took your iPad.
John: If that raccoon had mounted the stairs, I think I would have a very different feeling about it than that it was standing in the
John: In the driveway, basically.
Merlin: I tried to get a photo, but I think he was a little camera shy.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: He or she.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: They were very close.
Merlin: And here's what I'm trying to say to you, John Roderick, and here's my cognitive bias that I am willing to reveal, is maybe I just didn't notice birds before.
Merlin: I think I noticed birds.
Merlin: I noticed birds and burbs and borbs.
Merlin: I'm very tuned into the fauna of my neighborhood.
Merlin: There's a savanna cat you see sometimes.
Merlin: Anyhow, I guess I'm just asking you, because you do have this deep connection with aminals.
Merlin: like like a like a franciscan and so do you have any thoughts on this let me tie this in tie this into the seasons as you're doing here with these babies let me recommend a thing okay uh today sometime um
John: Go lay in your backyard.
John: Is there a place you can lay down?
John: Is there a picnic table or some other kind of... Would a hammock work?
John: Oh, a hammock.
John: That would be perfect.
John: Okay.
John: A hammock.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: I got to sweep off all the leavings.
Merlin: You know, things fall on there, but I sweep that off and I very gingerly get in.
Merlin: I'm not a hammock man.
Merlin: I do not have a body made for hammocks, but I will sometimes force myself to relax.
Okay.
Merlin: Go back there.
Merlin: Lay in the hammock.
John: Go lay in the hammock.
John: Close your eyes.
Merlin: Can I be listening to a podcast?
John: No.
John: Okay.
John: No.
John: Quiet your mind.
John: I know already this is an uphill battle.
John: Let's ride bikes.
John: There's an activity.
John: There's an activity to this.
John: Okay.
John: Ready?
John: All right.
John: Now, if you let your ears...
John: Just kind of start to take it all in.
John: You're taking it in.
John: Here's what you're doing.
John: You're taking it in.
Merlin: Step one, hammock steps, you take it in.
John: Right.
John: Via your ears.
John: So it's like you're looking out at a beautiful vista.
John: which I know you can stand to do for between three and 30 seconds.
John: I'll listen to the first five seconds.
John: Now you're going to take it in with your ears.
John: Now what you're going to start to hear is you're going to start to hear that from your hammock, even in your own backyard, you can hear aminals.
John: All around, in the near and in the far.
John: You can hear far animals.
Merlin: Are you sure about that?
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Now, the fact that San Francisco is a lot quieter right now just is going to give you access to a deeper layer of animals.
John: Okay.
John: But what you're going to hear is you're going to start to hear, you can hear insects.
John: Whoa.
John: You can hear birds.
John: This isn't just DTs.
John: No.
John: I'll hear a rustling.
John: Okay.
John: You'll hear a bustle in your hedgerow.
John: Don't be alarmed now.
John: No, don't be alarmed.
John: Okay, stay focused.
John: I got it.
John: So you're going to hear a hum.
John: You're going to hear a background hum, which is the city still living and breathing.
John: But you're going to hear things.
John: All this little stuff.
John: And then you're going to hear...
Merlin: I've been noticing more bumblebees.
Merlin: We've had more bumblebees lately.
John: Little bees, little floaters, little flitters.
John: You're going to hear things that are like, what the hell is that?
John: And you're going to realize that the entire time that we're just walking around all the time, there is a cacophony of sound happening from all of our little...
John: little friends that are living so they're making so much noise in fact really that it is insane when you finally hear it because you're like how am i not how am i not registering that this is happening
John: It's the loudest thing.
John: Except, you know, a city has a thrum, like a... There's this... Oh, yeah, there's a something hurts tone.
John: Yeah.
John: And then the city also has just like a static white noise kind of happening all the time.
John: But you're going to, I think, and this is one of the nice things about everything being shut down, you're going to have access to...
John: A little bit.
John: Now, some of our listeners who are out in the prairies or whatever, they know about this because they can't help it.
John: Every time they can't hear themselves think out there for all the little things chattering at them.
John: Sure.
John: But, you know, and the thing is, I live here close to the airport.
John: So the thing is, there are no planes right now.
John: So I'm hearing all kinds of stuff.
John: I'm hearing faraway crows talking to other faraway crows.
John: You can hear the crowversation.
John: You can hear crowversations.
John: You can hear them.
John: You can hear faraway crows and then realize that near crows also can hear them.
John: And know what they're saying.
John: You know, you see three crows and they're like, and you're like, yeah, they're talking, but there are faraway crows talking and they're talking loud enough that these crows can hear them.
John: So that must be for a reason, right?
Merlin: Whales aren't making a cocktail party phenomenon where you hear your name, even though you weren't paying attention to that, you know, again, nice distinction listening versus hearing.
John: This is the thing.
John: When a crow finds a Cheeto coming through the rye, and that crow goes... If you watch a crow find a Cheeto, I'm not suggesting you do this, but if you watch a crow find a Cheeto, the crow makes no attempt to alert other crows to a Cheeto.
John: The crow and the Cheeto...
John: The crow is focused on the Cheeto, but not on his friends.
John: But if a crow finds a field of Cheetos, how fast does it take for there to be 400 crows there?
John: Do you think the other crows are just saying, let him have it?
John: for the one cheeto one but if there's a field of cheetos yeah the the crow goes and the other crow goes and there's 500 crows can hear that oh yeah i see i see field of cheetos pass it on yeah and they're like whoa drop what you're doing did you hear that and it's like it's like they're there instantly right huh
John: But all the little critters are doing that all the time.
John: So I think just laying in your hammock and trying to listen to the insects, you will be astonished.
John: I'm going to do this.
Merlin: I'm going to do this today.
Merlin: Literally today I'm going to go to the yard and I'm going to lay in that hammock.
Merlin: I'm going to settle my mind.
Merlin: I'm going to turn off the podcast, take out the AirPods, and I'm just going to listen for the crows, the Cheetos, the bumblebees.
John: And the thing is, as you listen, so at first you're going to hear them, right?
John: And you're going to be like, I hear them.
John: Yes.
John: But then as you listen more, you hear the layers of them.
John: and you realize you're hearing layers of sophistication in communication, like things that are unsophisticated.
Merlin: You play something for a baby, the baby knows there's music playing.
Merlin: The baby listens a little bit more, gets a little more sophisticated, and goes, oh, that's Mozart.
Merlin: And then eventually they'll know that's, what's his name, Neville Chamberlain?
Merlin: Neville Mariner.
Merlin: They'll know specifically that was Neville Chamberlain.
Merlin: playing, playing, you know, layers.
Merlin: It's all the same music, but you have the ears to hear.
Merlin: Precisely.
Merlin: You know, it's really true.
Merlin: It's going to be great.
Merlin: I think it's great.
Merlin: But I think it's good that the animals are out there.
Merlin: They seem like they're doing fine.
Merlin: And again, I'm not trying to be this particular guy.
Merlin: But you do see more and more photos of coyotes in weird places.
Merlin: There are definitely way fewer automobiles, mostly, going around.
Merlin: There's fewer people going around.
Merlin: And what do you think, as somebody who's an aminologist, how do you think the change over the last month or so is impacting the aminal kingdom?
Merlin: So listen, I'm the baby, they're the Mozart.
Merlin: What are they the baby of?
Merlin: Is anything changing for them?
Merlin: John, am I imagining this?
Merlin: Are there more aminals doing more things?
Merlin: Or am I just hearing with ears that a baby can't have?
John: No, I think it's too short term for aminals to truly be venturing back into Chernobyl.
John: But I think the normal amount of aminals exploring...
John: which animals do, I think that amount of exploring, they're just going to start...
Merlin: exploring more confidently because there aren't people trying to run them down all the time you know they're just we're seeing them out because that's what they would normally be doing if they could even manage to get across that street yeah and just to be clear and to swage a friend of the show uh john said i am not calling this evolution not yet no no no but let me give you an example okay well you know about spiders for example you do you know from spiders i feel like you do
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: And you know me and ants, okay?
Merlin: You and spiders, I'm giving you the two fingers right here.
Merlin: That's me and ants.
Merlin: When do we get the ants?
Merlin: You get the ants when it rains.
Merlin: Why?
Merlin: The rain comes down and it makes water.
Merlin: And all the slugs and ants say, okay, we're going to pull up stakes and move to higher ground.
Merlin: The snails and slugs often do not fare very well.
Merlin: Do you get snails and slugs when it rains because they get flushed out?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Same here with sugar ants.
Merlin: You get a San Francisco little sugar ant.
Merlin: And they, as I've said before, they make it all the way up to the third floor when it's raining.
Merlin: And you could tell within a day or two of torrential rain, the ants are checking stuff out.
Merlin: That is not evolution.
Merlin: That is adaptation.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: Ah, adaptation.
Merlin: That is not evolution that I am aware of.
Merlin: It might be evolution on an infinite timescale blue ocean.
Merlin: What I'm saying here is, right, could that be what we're seeing here?
Merlin: Which is, these are eminals of opportunity.
John: All credit to John Siracusa, who has explained this to us many times.
John: I think what we're waiting for is evolution, which is going to happen probably in the next year or so.
John: where raccoons are going to evolve.
Merlin: It takes a couple generations is what you're saying.
John: It takes at least a year or two for raccoons to evolve to be able to live in a marshmallow economy, to learn how to use toll booths.
John: It passes down from mother to baby.
Merlin: I understand that it's more than stealing your Cheetos.
Merlin: It's reclaiming your Cheetos.
Merlin: It could be they're also stealing your pin.
Merlin: when you use the ATM.
John: It's possible that that raccoon was looking at you trying to see if you were going to use your pin, if it could look over your shoulder and see your password for your iPhone.
Merlin: He's looking at me saying, look at this guy over here.
Merlin: We've got no soup.
Merlin: He has certain raccoon expectations that I am happy to oblige, but I will be undeterred from stealing his pin or visiting Garbage Island.
John: And then that information will be passed via evolution.
Merlin: The hundredth monkey throws the clam off the cliff.
John: Precisely.
John: Precisely.
John: But I do feel like the world is changing big and small.
John: There's four layers that we can talk about this.
John: And the problem is that
John: There are a few layers at which this is really a tragedy for a lot of people.
John: And I'm not even talking about people that get the sickness and die, but there's a lot of tragedy associated with what's happening right now.
Merlin: I keep thinking about Stuart Wellington from the Flophouse and how he and his wife own two bars in Brooklyn.
Merlin: That's certainly not the same as getting sick and getting intubated and everything, but there's a lot of sadness.
Merlin: As my friend John Lambert used to say, there's still a lot of grenades rolling around.
Merlin: We're still in such a state of shock that we're not even going to get to how sad this is for a few months.
John: That's right, and maybe for a few years.
John: But there is so much opportunity here.
John: I agree.
John: I totally agree.
John: We need to be able to separate
John: And like so much stuff in modern life, we need to be able to acknowledge like, yes, there's a lot of tragedy here and we need to adjust our response and our expectations to both be aware of it, to accommodate it.
John: But...
John: We really need to take this opportunity.
John: It's an incredible opportunity.
Merlin: John, I know you don't listen to podcasts.
Merlin: This is all I'm talking about on all the shows.
Merlin: I know it sounds privileged.
Merlin: It sounds nuts.
Merlin: But yes, embrace the sadness.
Merlin: Embrace the very strong emotions that are happening right now.
Merlin: It's all right to cry.
Merlin: It gets the sad out of you.
Merlin: Raindrops from your eyes.
Merlin: But alongside that, God damn it, look for the opportunity.
Merlin: Opportunity to change your sleep, your diet, your exercise, your yardin'.
Merlin: Change your yardin'.
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Merlin: And when's a better time is what I'm asking.
John: You can get a new mattress, for crying out loud.
John: But also, at the societal level, we have wanted – there are five things that we have been agitating for for the last half a decade, you know, since the –
John: Since the left became, you know, in a lot of ways, credit to Bernie Sanders, since the left became energized, the real left became energized.
Merlin: The non-left of neoliberal, yeah.
John: Yeah, the left that isn't Democrats.
John: I hate that left so much right now, I hate it.
John: I can't even watch Parks and Rec anymore.
Merlin: There's too much Joe Biden love.
Merlin: It makes me crazy.
John: Don't do it.
John: But so much, you know, so much now kind of awareness of things like universal income, health care, you know, like universal health care.
John: And just a general social awareness that inequality is now to the point where it has become a caustic drag on progress.
Merlin: Also, let's be honest, there's lots of shit happening now that's finally affecting white people of means.
Merlin: And it's because our society does not have the infrastructure to do even the basic shit anymore.
Merlin: It's all held together with a little bit of guerrilla tape and spit.
Merlin: But no, I totally agree with you.
Merlin: It's no longer insane to think that the things that we want are insane.
John: So I have this...
John: I have this kind of like, you know, sometimes I go for a long walk and I think about, I think in terms of an essay that I'm writing.
John: I'm not actually writing an essay.
John: I'm just thinking in terms of someone who, if they did write essays, would be writing an essay.
John: And a lot of times I'll walk for several hours.
John: I'll write a very, what I think is pretty good essay.
John: And then having written it in my mind, I won't need to write it on the page.
Merlin: So it was the ultimate form of self-publishing.
John: Yeah, that's right.
John: Total Vanity Press.
John: Mind blog.
John: I published it on Submedium.
John: Hey, guys.
John: But my essay, the essay I'm working on is this.
John: I feel like the people that are agitating to open the country, whatever their political stripe is, whatever their motivation is,
John: I feel like I can say one thing fairly confidently, and that is that none of them are introverts.
John: And I don't know – I know for a fact that there are redneck introverts, tons of them.
John: But I think that there is something about introversion and being a redneck that are kind of –
John: that those two Venn diagrams don't overlap completely.
John: Interesting.
John: Or even a lot, right?
John: Like the more, I mean, like I say, I feel like introverts are across a spectrum of all humanity.
John: But I think, you know, if you've got a lot of introversion, you maybe tend to drift away from a whole lot of demonstrative redneckism.
John: Not sure about that.
John: I'm still working on that theory.
John: They call it the myth of the lonely hillbilly.
John: Right.
John: But in the white-collar middle-class world that I inhabit, I'm realizing that the extroverts, God bless them,
John: They want to get back.
John: They want the world to start up again.
Merlin: Well, you took away the $3 crude oil.
Merlin: They don't have the energy source that they need, the thing that drives them, which is that exposure to other people in one way or another, right?
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: And isn't this your definition?
Merlin: The definition that changed the game for me was when you said that you realized you're an introvert because I have my paraphrasing.
Merlin: Tell me your version.
Merlin: But what I remember is something along the lines of how much do you draw energy from other people versus how much energy is drained by other people?
Merlin: And you had there's even a term you came up with.
Merlin: What's the middle?
Merlin: What's the thing that we are where we like people to a point and then we need to get away?
Merlin: What's that called?
Merlin: I don't remember, but you're right.
Merlin: I feel like you came up with a term for this.
Merlin: When I go to my late lamented comics meetups at the comic store that's gone now, I'm like, you know what?
Merlin: For three hours, you could tear me apart like a dog.
Merlin: We're going to hang out.
Merlin: We're going to get into it.
Merlin: We could do finger stuff.
Merlin: Like whatever you want to do is fine.
Merlin: You want to take a photo.
Merlin: That's great.
Merlin: If you want me to sign your kid, I would be happy to do that.
Merlin: But then at a certain point I'm going to bounce and you know how fucking hard I can bounce.
Merlin: You didn't see me leave.
Merlin: You didn't see me arrive.
Merlin: You didn't see me leave.
Merlin: What door did he use?
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: Is there a door in that part of the room?
Merlin: Is this the prestige?
Merlin: Are there two of him?
Merlin: Are there none of him?
John: There's so many questions.
John: Every year I do at least one public event with you, Merlin, and you are so good at it.
John: You turn to gesture and say, have you met my what?
John: Well, where did he go?
John: But here's the thing about, here's what I, the extroverts are not the problem.
John: And the problem with the introverts is that we think extroverts are the problem.
John: The problem with extroverts is that they don't think about introverts at all.
John: But introverts are always thinking that extroverts are the problem because they are the problem for introverts.
John: And in this situation.
John: The extroverts don't see why we wouldn't want to.
John: Oh, I'm sorry.
John: The extroverts, the smart extroverts realize we have to sequester, we have to still be in quarantine.
John: Yeah, even though it pains me, I know that this is important, right?
John: Yeah, they know that that's true, and they are prepared to go the distance.
John: They are prepared to do what it takes, put the masks on, all the things.
John: Extroverts are wonderful, smart extroverts.
John: But they want to resume normal life.
John: And what the introverts are saying, I think pretty universally, is, wow, this is great.
John: We're not allowed to say it, but you're not allowed to say it.
John: And I want this.
John: all the time now these things that have happened in the last month and a half that have transformed our culture I would like to keep a lot of them if that's possible nobody's allowed to make demands of me
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Nobody's there.
Merlin: I'm no longer compelled to hue to your idea about how we should interact with some of the rules.
Merlin: It's not all over, but it is in the name to to to to quote our wonderful Seattle show.
Merlin: It is a game changer in the sense of there is a pretty hard reset on expectations.
Merlin: That is very appealing to me.
John: So here's here was here's my essay.
John: The extroverts are going to go back.
John: They're going to start up the world again.
John: They have to.
John: It's who they are.
John: And the world runs by them, kind of, or always did.
John: It always did.
John: The world always ran by them.
Merlin: A lot of our economy is based on extroversion.
John: They get out there.
John: They do their thing.
John: They're they're shucking and jiving there.
John: They're selling things.
John: They're like, hey, how's it going?
John: You know, hey, let's you know what?
Merlin: Let's hop on a call.
Merlin: They're doing stuff.
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: Or like, let's want to see you on the street.
Merlin: Why don't we stop and talk for a while?
John: Yeah.
John: You know what they're doing?
John: They're bringing in bouquets of with mylar balloons in them that say happy anniversary.
John: They are on their way to work right now with the backseat of their car filled with mylar balloons that say, welcome back.
John: My cake for the conference room.
John: Yeah, they're just so excited about it.
John: Here's the difference.
John: Extroverts can have the world.
John: They can have it.
John: The introverts now, there needs to be an introvert liberation movement, and here's why.
John: Because the introverts don't have to go back.
John: The white-collar tech introverts who are working from home right now and doing fine don't have to go back.
John: And when their boss sends that email that says, okay, the office is opening back up and we're going back to work, they don't have to.
John: They can write that email.
John: And I feel like this is on the level of a national rent strike, right?
John: introverts need to say i'm not going back to work oh across this line you do not we are all staying home those of us who want to stay home now can because it's been proved that we can yeah it's proved now that we can continue to do our white collar jobs and not go to not go into the office so in or go in one day a week
John: And if the introverts stage this protest, and it isn't a protest that's trying to shut down the world.
John: It's just a protest trying to say the 30% of us that don't want to go to work.
Merlin: We just want to bang on our drum all day.
John: But we're more productive at home.
John: Our mental health is better at home.
John: I'm sleeping like a baby.
Merlin: I've never slept as well in my adult life.
Merlin: Just because I know nobody's going to send me a passive-aggressive email.
Merlin: You send me a passive-aggressive email making a demand?
Merlin: You can suck a bag of nuts, my friend.
John: Yeah, suck a bag of nuts.
John: Now, if that 30% of white-collar introverts does not go back to Earth...
John: I'm sorry, do not go back to their Earth.
John: Did I say Earth?
John: You did.
John: I'm in town.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Whatever.
Merlin: I knew what you meant.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: If they don't go back to Earth.
Merlin: To their Earth.
Merlin: To whosever Earth.
Merlin: Terra Extra version.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: We just took 30% of the pollution out of the equation, 30% of the traffic out of the equation, 30% of the dry cleaning.
John: No, I'm serious.
Merlin: I'm serious.
Merlin: Just how much less I have to pick my kid up at school, how much less I spend $120 a week on Lyft to get my kid back from school.
Merlin: I miss that not a bit.
John: No, it's astonishing.
John: And...
John: Ultimately, that means that offices in cities can downsize, right?
John: My...
John: like they can contract so it's they're just little hubs of extroverts then and all of that downtown real estate now can be converted into housing or it can be converted into uh taekwondo gyms oh my god you could teach krav maga or they could be slurries for super train you could repurpose so much space we don't need all this nobody likes the open office john nobody likes that this is closed office
John: This is the opportunity to fully start to transition to electric vehicles.
John: Holy shit.
John: Because who loves electric vehicles more than extroverts?
John: At Bigley Jr.
John: ?
John: If we're taking this many cars off the road, well, let's just keep taking them off the road.
John: Let's just take them all off the road.
Merlin: You're saying it's like a snowball.
Merlin: This started out a month ago as a little sad snowball of sadness.
Merlin: And it's been rolling, rolling, rolling.
Merlin: Keep those snowballs rolling.
Merlin: And now we're in a situation where the 30% want to be heard, but not a lot.
John: And if we start to recognize that the economy really is a...
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: is that the work is not what matters.
John: What matters is that we keep people busy and that they earn money and that they stay.
Merlin: And that they continue to believe because of that, not inertia, but that, what's the opposite of inertia?
Merlin: The snowballing.
Merlin: Momentum that they think it's very necessary.
Merlin: It must continue to feel necessary.
John: And it's the same thing that cities realize when they figure out that
John: If you have a population of chronic alcoholics and you just build a building and house them there and give them 20 ounces of beer an hour, it ends up being cheaper for the city by a factor of four.
Merlin: Just build houses.
Merlin: Quit screwing around.
Merlin: Stop destroying tent trash.
Merlin: Make little houses for people.
Merlin: Put them in a hotel right now.
John: It's so much cheaper than running them in and out of emergency rooms and jails.
Merlin: There was a guy in the Castro.
Merlin: There's an article.
Merlin: I went back and found this a while back, and it's a very sad story, but at the time it was quite shocking.
Merlin: There's one guy in the Castro with pretty extreme schizophrenia, and pretty much every time this guy would sleep in a doorway, as you do, and every time the police dealt with this guy, it became a biohazard because he was bloody.
Merlin: He was covered with pee and poop.
Merlin: He would throw pee and poop at everybody.
Merlin: And so basically, any time someone had to basically say, can you get out of the doorway, please, and thank you, it cost $10,000.
Merlin: Right, right.
Merlin: Get the man a room.
Merlin: Get the man a room.
Merlin: Get him a room and give him his beer.
John: But this is true of—this is the same, I think, the same revelation that we will have when we realize—
John: You know what?
John: A lot of the work that is getting done doesn't need to get done.
John: And it's cheaper to give people a universal basic income than it is to have them drive in to town every day to do things.
John: this work to survive because the work is just you know it's like my dad when i said i'm taking your car and he was like i got places to go and i was like where well the car mechanic you know he's he's just going to the classic extra classic extraversion yeah he needs the car why well he's got to go to the mechanic yeah he ends just like by the wheels
John: There's at least 30 percent of our economy that's just that.
John: Oh, sing it, sister.
John: Yes.
John: And so if if we can take that away and replace it with just a sense of like, look, there's an awful lot of wealth in this country.
John: And this this disease is going to let's even say that we that let's just say the disease is a proxy.
John: But the disease is what's going to allow us to see.
John: The scales are going to fall from our eyes.
John: They're doing it already.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: How can you not?
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: How can you not?
Merlin: After years and years of what's the cliche that everybody knows?
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: Why are we having this meeting?
Merlin: Couldn't this have been an email?
Merlin: And then you get the email, maybe, because you're evolving as a person.
Merlin: You say, did this even need to be an email?
Merlin: Right.
John: Right.
John: Why did I get this email?
John: Couldn't this have just been... Well, because that's the job.
Merlin: It's one person's job to send the email, and it's another person's job to get the email and go, hmm, that's very interesting.
John: This morning I woke up.
John: I came out into the house.
John: No one was here.
John: It was the middle of the morning.
John: It's not a time unknown.
John: Time enough at last.
John: And all the cars were running in the streets and no one was there.
John: The rapture.
John: So I'm stirring my coffee.
John: I'm writing up some long division problems for my daughter.
John: I did some research on Common Core and I realized that they really are doing math a completely different way.
Merlin: Absolutely different way.
Merlin: The number lines change.
Merlin: I don't know if you're doing number lines and number stories, but oh my God, I look at it and I'm like, what in the fuck are you doing?
Merlin: Why are you making a drawing instead of doing this difficult long division?
Merlin: Why is that a drawing?
John: Well, and here's the thing.
John: I don't understand it.
John: I'm not qualified to teach it.
John: But I feel like learning math that way...
John: And learning math the old way aren't incompatible.
John: It's the same math.
John: Not at all.
Merlin: Out of the box, my kids' estimation abilities are... I told you, it wasn't until I was in college that somebody taught me how to calculate a tip by taking this number and making it that number.
Merlin: Do that, double that, yeah.
Merlin: You take the tax in Florida anyway.
Merlin: I think it was, you take the tax and double it or whatever.
Merlin: Take the tax and double it.
Merlin: Or just even like the 20% of this.
Merlin: And you go like, oh, but, or like, I only learned recently that what is it?
Merlin: 20% of four is the same as 4% of 20.
Merlin: Like there's all these crazy tricks.
Merlin: I never, my kids estimation skills are nuts.
Merlin: I don't understand what the fuck she's doing, but she is wired for a world of algebra in a way that I never was.
Merlin: And I, I, I was resistant because it's wrong.
John: It seemed it's wonderful.
John: I'm not fighting it anymore, but I, but I'm also not, I also can't teach it.
John: And so this morning I was like, look, I don't know what to tell you here.
John: Um, I want you to write, uh, 10, three digit numbers.
John: And she was like, okay.
John: So she wrote 10, three digit numbers.
John: And I said, now I want you to write, uh, 10, uh, one or two digit numbers and divide the three digit numbers by the, the one, two digit numbers go.
John: I'll be downstairs during my podcast.
John: And she was like, oh, and I was like, you know, like we're homeschooling now.
John: So here's here's what we're doing.
John: We're just like we're on a space station and daddy's going to do what he can do.
John: And we're memorizing our times tables.
John: Now, maybe Common Core says don't memorize your times tables, but I don't see how it hurts.
John: and we can go back to common core math in the fall and if they're like you don't know how to you don't know how to put haystacks together it's like you can learn that you can learn that does it also fly in the face of the montessori do you wonder who knows who knows and i'm not even worried about it good okay okay just checking just checking but i came out this morning no one was here and i was walking around and i was like okay all right this is interesting and then they both come in uh mother and daughter and i was like oh where were you guys you know it's not it's not normal
John: And mom takes her earbud out and says, I realized that I don't have to be...
John: sitting at my little desk if i'm on a conference call i just put my ear they don't have to see me oh that's my that's my wife's day i just walk in and there's like a bunch of little little things on a screen and she's muted and she's like yeah it's another one of the conference calls but she said i put i don't have to be at my desk pretending that this is the work no i i went on she said i walked i just walked four miles
John: while Marla rode her bike alongside me, and I was on a conference call the entire time.
Merlin: I love everything about this, John.
Merlin: I was like, what?
Merlin: I didn't know I was allowed to do this, and I'm totally allowed to do this.
Merlin: We just leveled up opportunity, right?
Merlin: Opportunity game changed opportunity.
John: Why the fuck are we even?
John: Why the fuck?
John: Like a week ago, we were working from home.
John: Now we're working from a walk.
John: Whoa.
John: How long before we're working from a ski lift?
John: How long before we're working from an off world?
Merlin: Whoa.
Merlin: And as we notice these things, the work itself starts to change.
Merlin: We're going to, we're going to cut away so much of the fat from this bullshit.
Um,
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: So here's my paper, though.
John: Oh, this is your essay?
John: The problem is that this falls to the introverts.
John: The extroverts are not even going to think of this.
John: It's not on their radar because they don't think about introverts.
Merlin: It's not in their makeup.
John: No, they don't believe introverts exist.
John: They think they're a myth.
John: They do.
John: Or they're just like, it's like everybody, it's like when dumbasses think about chronic pain, they're like, yeah, you're just a malingerer.
John: Everything an introvert says, I don't want to go.
John: The extrovert says, what's your problem?
Merlin: It's going to be fun.
Merlin: Why don't you just stop procrastinating?
Merlin: Why don't you just is such a dangerous way to begin any sentence.
John: But introverts cannot ever expect extroverts to truly understand.
John: Nope.
John: Right.
John: They're never going to understand.
John: We just need to.
John: Seize the moment.
John: Seize the moment.
John: Carpe moment.
John: An additional problem with introverts, and let me tell you, there are an awful lot, and I can elucidate them all, but one additional problem is introverts aren't very good at organizing, right?
John: We are not the ones marching on Washington because it's antithetical to what we want to be doing.
John: You guys march on Washington.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Why don't you stop procrastinating?
Merlin: Why don't you get organized?
Merlin: Why aren't you a potted fern?
John: But if we don't do this, if the introverts do not unite and realize our power and insist that we will not go back.
John: We're going to lose the moment.
John: Not only are we going to lose the moment, but we will be the ones that are criminal because we're going to slunk back to work.
John: Bitter.
John: As I started to think about this, the people on the roads that suck
John: We think of the people on the roads that suck as these aggro screamers.
John: But I think a lot of the people that suck on the roads are introverts that don't want to be there.
John: And so they're passive, aggressively just doing everything 10% shittier.
John: You know, the extroverts are driving by like, beep, beep, with the back of their car full of mylar balloons.
John: Hey, I'm on my way to a work party.
John: It's the introverts.
Merlin: Classic extrovert bullshit.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Beep, beep.
Merlin: Beep, beep.
Merlin: Yeah, but you're saying we're the ones.
Merlin: So someone's like, oh, it's been a month since I've been allowed to go to Stumblish, too.
Merlin: Still stumbling.
Merlin: What happened to my local pub is closed?
Merlin: You're killing the economy with your introversion.
Merlin: Is that what's going to happen?
John: No, no, no, no.
John: Because the introverts are going to say, as we're so good at doing, hey, extroverts, go on with your bad selves.
John: Open your Irish bars again and have your work parties.
John: But we are... And the thing is, we can posit this a thousand different ways.
John: We can say, oh, extroverts are immunocompromised.
John: We don't want to do that.
John: What we want to do is talk about this in terms of efficiencies.
John: And I think if you talk about it in terms of...
John: efficiencies, and you make it not a passive thing, not a, like, we don't want to give magnitude work, but to say...
John: There's a certain percentage of us that are just going to work more efficiently from home.
John: That is going to cut costs from the bottom line.
John: I see.
Merlin: This is not going to affect you.
Merlin: You go on with your bad self onion rings.
Merlin: I'm going to be back here doing the actual work quietly.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Reduce, reuse, recycle.
Merlin: I'm going to be listening for the aminals.
Merlin: And you know what?
Merlin: I'm going to mute your call.
Merlin: When I say mute your call, I'm going to say you will never know that I wasn't there.
Merlin: You're never going to know I wasn't there.
John: There's no way to find out.
John: And this is what's weird about it, because what makes this period so great for introverts is that extroverts are being punished.
John: And I think what makes life so great for extroverts is that every time they have one of those all-hands meetings and they look around the room and all the people in the T-shirts where a wolf is howling at the moon look miserable and don't want to be there, the extroverts are like, ha, ha, ha, ha.
John: You know, like all these tech dudes have to be here because it's a meeting and I'm in charge.
John: Like there is an introvert-extrovert world.
John: war happening in life all the time where the greatest thing for us is that the other side be punished.
John: If the extroverts just have their world and they can punish the slightly less extroverted people that are there with them and the introverts are having their little world and there's 30% less traffic, 30% less pollution, 30% and then we start addressing the fact that
John: With the 30% of introverts out of the equation, a lot of the jobs that used to seem necessary aren't now.
John: So the economy is going to change.
Merlin: There's not going to be as much opportunity to just... There can't be as much... Well, you're also talking about something where I feel like you're saying that the gravity of this is going to change... It's going to change a lot of defaults.
Merlin: There's a lot of defaults that we've been living with for a pretty long time, and those defaults are really no longer sustainable.
Merlin: And some of it really, really super sucks.
Merlin: For the first time in years and years and years, I wish I could just go get sushi for lunch.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: Just go in, have a sake, have a sushi, and just chill out.
Merlin: I absolutely miss that.
Merlin: Have two sushis.
Merlin: Huh?
Merlin: Have two sushis.
Merlin: I could have two sushis, one sake.
Merlin: I don't want to have too much sake because it'll make me take a nap.
Merlin: But no, I really super do want that.
Merlin: And you know what I mean about defaults, though?
Merlin: There's so many defaults where the extrovert, maximalist extrovert default just trounces everything.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Like, even if it's just we're going out for drinks, you're coming with us.
Merlin: It's like, no, I'm not.
Merlin: I'm going to go.
Merlin: I'm going to go home and I'm going to watch so much unorthodox tonight or whatever.
John: And this is the thing.
John: The default is extroverted in every case.
Merlin: It never occurred to me till now.
Merlin: You're absolutely right.
Merlin: And they have never been given, as with so much privilege, they've never been given much reason to interrogate how much their extroversion.
Merlin: It would not be in their makeup is what I'm trying to say.
John: The problem, and this is the thing about any minority population is hyper-conscious of the majority population.
John: They must be.
John: It must be.
John: And every majority population is almost completely unconscious of the minority populations unless it is brought right to their attention.
Merlin: There's an ad you might have even had.
Merlin: Well, actually, I think you're not Max Funding anymore.
Merlin: But Max Fund podcasts sometimes have, you know, they do the spots where they promote another show.
Merlin: And there's this wonderful spot I hear sometimes on the Max Fund shows.
Merlin: And I have never heard the actual program, but I love what this woman said.
Merlin: This is an African-American woman.
Merlin: And she says that her friends ask her why everything with her is always about race.
Merlin: And she says that's because everything is about race.
Merlin: And it's like, I was like, God, that's so good.
Merlin: And it's really so true.
Merlin: It's like when you're in any given minority, especially a minority that's not like a one percentage minority, you have to see, to use an old term, you have to situate yourself individually.
Merlin: as against this hegemonic, talk about a snowball.
Merlin: Whoever is winning in that race is one example, you can't help but go, yes, this is all about race, or this is all about economics, or this is all about employment, or it's all about all of those things.
John: If you're in the minority, you have to sweat all of those.
John: It's not even that you're situating it.
John: It's just pre-situated for you, right?
John: Pre-situated.
John: And what's true of introverts, and introversion goes across all other lines, is that the reason I talk about it so much, the reason it was such a revolution for me in my mind, the reason it's such a revolution for you and for a lot of people, was that I spent decades just feeling like I sucked or I just couldn't get on.
John: Well, at least that you're disappointing and lazy.
John: Disappointing and lazy, but just can't get with the program.
John: Just get with the program.
John: Why can't you get with the program?
John: Go along, get along.
John: Get with the program.
John: And realizing that the majority population can become aware of the minority population if the minority population puts themselves in front of the majority population and says, we are here.
John: And introverts don't want to do that.
John: Again, it's the opposite of what we want.
John: You know, we don't want to be, we don't want to stand athwart anybody.
John: We want just to be acknowledged that we exist and left alone.
John: And extroverts are never going to do it.
John: They're not going to do it on their own.
John: And we're not going to make them.
John: But this is our moment, right?
John: And the difference we can make here is
John: in terms of just redrawing the social order and saying, because there's never been a time in all of human history where the introverts were, A, self-aware as a class of people,
John: B, had the resources of communication to establish a common cause.
Merlin: That's huge.
Merlin: That is huge.
Merlin: And... If you're nomadic, if you're like a nomadic, keep to yourself family, and you're just going wherever the milk is, you know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: But you don't have Twitter and Slack.
John: You know what I'm saying?
John: Even if you're in New York in 1950.
John: New York City?
John: New York City!
John: But like...
John: Like introverts, introverts can't organize because at the end of the day, if somebody like says, we need to like, we should get together and make some signs and go protest.
John: They all are like out the back door.
Merlin: That sounds exhausting.
John: But also, we are living in a time when the introverts, to some degree, are driving the economy, at least the white-collar economy.
John: Whoa.
John: Right?
John: It is the designers.
John: It is the programmers.
John: It is the, you know— Making techs and tech and makes.
John: Tech and makes, but also podcasters.
John: I mean, there are so many jobs now—
Merlin: Can I give you an angle?
Merlin: I don't mean to interrupt you, but I want to give you an angle on this to think about it.
Merlin: I'm going to go, go, go, go.
Merlin: Here's my angle on this.
Merlin: I'm just thinking about.
Merlin: I'm just asking the question, okay?
Merlin: Think it out loud.
Merlin: Okay, okay.
Merlin: How can I put this?
Merlin: What if we looked at this from a slightly different angle?
Merlin: And again, forgive me, I'm setting aside the grave economic impact, but I think the grave economic impact can really... That's what will kill the 30%, is the like, oh, because economy type stuff.
Merlin: But let me give you this angle.
Merlin: Platforms and performance.
Right.
Merlin: Um, I think one thing that I feel like you're describing and something that I'm feeling anyway, is that sometimes you get like the alpha extroverts, let's say in the office or, you know, on the team or in the band or whatever it is, you get an alpha extrovert and, um,
Merlin: It's so important that they find the right platform for their performance.
Merlin: Whether that's a performance of wealth or of status or of conviviality or whatever it is, there's not enough oxygen in the world to feed all of their need for performance.
Merlin: That's what a lot of it is, is I need somebody to see me doing my thing.
Merlin: And if your thing is you say, you know, where are you with that Marv during meetings?
Merlin: If that's your role and you don't have a Marv to talk to, you've been denied your platform and your chance to perform.
Merlin: What I'm tossing out to you, the angle I'm offering here is setting aside the grave economic impact.
Merlin: What if people are finding, adopting new platforms and opportunities for performance that don't require...
Merlin: in-person, or even one-on-one type stuff.
Merlin: For example, when I would evaluate whether I wanted to do a talk or a call or whatever, I would always try to evaluate, there's so much that I can do in the job that I have, which is somewhere between a performer, an educator, and a clown.
Merlin: I do need to have a platform where I can perform those things.
Merlin: All the time that I spend doing that one-on-one with one person,
Merlin: Oh, Jiminy, I need to be really parsimonious about how many one-on-ones I do in a given week, because all the time I'm doing one-on-one, I'm not doing one-on-many.
Merlin: So I've had platforms and opportunities to perform in such a way that this is not disruptive, setting aside the grave economic impact.
Merlin: Do you follow, though?
Merlin: The thing is, if your performance is, I go to Stumblers 2, still stumbling every night, and I get my drink on, and I go up and, I don't know, maybe I do a karaoke in Islands in the Stream type thing.
Merlin: If you're denied that platform and performance, that's when you become the sort of person who puts on your MAGA hat and protests.
Merlin: Because now, there's a meta performance there, which is that I am not only performing my need to be seen by you, but...
Merlin: I'm performing as this sort of extroverted character that Mr. Trump, sir, would really enjoy seeing on TV.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Their performance and their platform is that protest.
Merlin: So it really serves.
Merlin: It's a four-quadrant cock-up that they can get out there where all these people are still so sick.
Merlin: Anyway, do you see where I'm going with the angle?
John: Yeah, so there are two things that inspires me to respond two different ways.
John: I'm so glad.
John: One, the problem for a lot of extroverts and performance people, like you're saying, is that the Internet, although it's not a meritocracy –
John: And one of the reasons the Internet is so toxic is that the Internet itself does not actually reward the loudest person.
John: And so what you get is a lot of people on – let's just use Twitter as an example.
John: You get a lot of people who are super mad that they don't have more followers.
Right?
John: And they are in there.
John: They're saying shitty things to people every day.
John: They're trying to get attention.
John: They are the people that if we were in a bar, they would be dominating the conversation.
Merlin: They would be the reason why you have to talk louder just to conduct a normal conversation because they're drowning you out with their extroversion.
John: And so if there were, let's say, five people from work.
John: And the smartest one was an introvert.
John: And the dumbest one was an alpha extrovert.
John: All five people from work would sit there listening to the dumbest one the whole time.
John: And they'd go home from the bar and they'd be like, well, that sucked.
John: But on Twitter, the smartest one from the office has 15,000 followers.
John: And the dumbest one...
John: The loudest one has 22 followers.
Merlin: Does he tweet a lot about sports, John?
John: He tweets a lot about how... I'm going to tell you this, John.
Merlin: Here's a tip.
Merlin: Watch out for guys.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: I know this makes people angry, but I'm an introvert.
Merlin: You know, watch out for guys that are wearing a necktie and their profile pic.
Merlin: Not always.
Merlin: Not always.
Merlin: Watch out for that.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: Okay, I don't want to get into a thing here, but a lot of times I click through on the ding-a-lings, and there may not be that, but it's usually a guy talking about a regional sports team also.
Merlin: Watch out for regional sportsmen.
John: But this is why Twitter sucks, because there's a lot of those loud people who are used to, in the world...
John: getting that you know they walk around the world and here's what they think they're hilarious everybody loves them people love they're fucking funny and they're smart they know all about shit and my frat brothers say i should go into stand-up and so twitter for them and social media seems like and the and you see this bitterness all the time it seems like this place where it's an inside club and people only they follow each other and they don't they don't recognize that i'm blue
John: So those people are just extroverts that are used to bullying everybody into listening to them, but they think it's because they're funny.
John: So and then and the guy that's sitting, you know, the like hilarious gal that works in tech support, who's got who's got, you know, 20,000 people following her on Twitter, but at the office, she's not.
John: nobody really she's she's not like head of sales you know yeah so so that dynamic right i think you're absolutely right that those performance bros and and and and ultra extroverts they need attention it's just it's just who they are they just need attention and they are
John: And they're hurt and betrayed and ultimately angry when they don't get attention.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: And like anybody who's accustomed to always just naturally being in power, the idea that they shouldn't always be in power, just the idea is very disruptive and upsetting.
John: But this isn't even about power.
John: It's not all white men.
John: There are plenty of black lady extroverts who are just as much of a fucking energy suck in a group of five people.
John: It's just people that think that they're the funniest person in the room.
John: Yeah, yeah.
John: So if the introverts leave and the extroverts are left to themselves, this has been my experience, at least in dealing with introverts, which is that if you put five introverts in a room, the most introverted one will gradually...
John: now bear with me okay will gradually convert the least introverted person in the room into a proxy extrovert because the most introverted person in the room will be so like intractable that
John: an otherwise introverted person will start to say like, well, I mean, come on, can we at least like, is this the way that a Los Angeles five becomes like a Tulsa nine?
John: No, in the sense that exactly that.
John: Right.
John: And I think it's true of extroverts too.
John: If you have five extroverts,
John: The least extroverted person will start to seem like an intro.
John: It's a sliding index.
John: It's a sliding index.
John: Okay.
John: So if the introverts self-select out of this.
John: The extroverts in the world will have no shortage of introverts.
John: They'll just be what we would have thought of as extroverts.
Merlin: If you don't know who the extrovert in the room is, it might be you.
John: It might be you.
John: If you don't know who, if you don't know who, and that's, you know, that's people like you and me, right?
John: Who are in this intermediate thing where it's like, okay, I can go, I can do it.
John: I can do like five hours of social stuff.
John: Are we polyverts?
John: Are we polyverts?
John: Yeah.
John: I mean, no, because I always want to go back to that.
Merlin: I need to land on introvert.
Merlin: I can perform extrovert.
Merlin: And just because I talk a lot doesn't make me an extrovert.
Merlin: That's certainly part of it.
Merlin: It doesn't hurt.
Merlin: But I have that moment where I'm like Ultraman, and my little light starts blinking, and I'm like, well, I need to start getting ready for the time where I just go look at my phone and don't talk to anybody for a while.
John: But let me ask you this.
John: Yes.
John: In any situation where you are out doing a thing, would you not rather not be there?
John: I would always rather not be there.
John: Right.
John: So that's the difference, right?
John: I mean, we can go do it.
John: And the thing is, your comic book fan... Because you've got to go do it.
John: In the four times, you had to go do it.
John: You've got to, right?
Merlin: Come on, just run.
John: Somebody asked me the other day.
Merlin: Don't take care of yourself.
Merlin: Come out and be with us.
Merlin: Watch me.
John: What are you going to miss, they said.
John: And I was like, I mean, actually, what am I going to miss?
John: I miss travel.
John: I miss going to Max FunCon.
John: You know, I would be in Alaska right now at this thing.
John: You didn't get to go to Japan.
John: I didn't go to Japan.
Merlin: We didn't get to go to Disneyland.
Merlin: We had all kinds of sunk money in a whole program where we planned out a trip, and trips caused me anxiety.
Merlin: And we had it all planned out, and I was pumping myself up about it.
Merlin: I've never been so excited for a planned, let's say it, vacation.
John: a vacay and now like i would just love to go i would just love to go anywhere right now but i also like not going places a lot well that what this has been the crazy thing for me right max fund got canceled my war college thing which i've been looking forward to for four years got canceled i didn't get to go to alaska on an all expenses paid trip i didn't go to japan and yet when i searched my feelings yep
John: This is the first time that you've been allowed to really look at that.
Merlin: And also, quiet, there's borbs.
Merlin: Listen for the borbs.
Merlin: If you just listen for the Russell in the hedgerow, you will find your true heart.
Merlin: Your true heart has been yelled down by the person who regards themselves as funny.
John: Yes.
John: I never want to see that person again.
Merlin: No, I hate it.
Merlin: When I have to go to other people's things and I meet those people, it's the worst.
Merlin: It's like the people who respond to your tweets with their own joke.
Merlin: And you're like, don't do that.
Merlin: Don't bring your own joke.
Merlin: I already made the joke.
Merlin: You don't need to tell me what the joke was.
Merlin: Don't do that.
Merlin: And that's your life.
Merlin: A lot of the time when you're an introvert.
John: or whatever i am i need a better somebody d dm'd me uh on instagram not that long ago and they were like we should hang out and i was like yeah probably uh that's the i mean it's really weird that you as a total stranger would think that you're going to get anything out of me from that but i'll let's entertain this moment um where i just you know like i don't want to like
John: I went along.
John: I went along for... What's it called?
John: The Seattle Freeze?
John: What's it called?
John: No, I was just doing... The Seattle Freeze is what it's called.
John: But I was doing the... You just DM'd me out of nowhere and said that you think we should hang out.
John: I get it.
John: I get where you're coming from.
John: And I'm not going to block you instantly, I guess, was the extent to my playing along.
John: And it followed that inevitable course, and I'm sure you've seen this before, where they were like, well, how come you didn't
John: Like, ask me a question, why don't you?
John: And I was like, I have no question for you.
John: I'm not interested in you.
Merlin: Well, and John, I feel like this is something that we both do in one form or another, and it's become a really important move for me in the last 15 years, which is that I'm not responding to what it is that you have to say here because I object to the form of your question.
Right.
Merlin: The premise of your question is unacceptable to me, and so I return no.
John: Empty set.
John: N-A-N.
John: Nothing.
John: And I got a string of four super angry DMs from this person.
John: Of course you did.
John: Fine, then.
John: I guess it's your loss that you don't... And I was like, wow.
John: Wow, you chose well.
John: You definitely chose well.
John: I would say that this person was bonkers, except this has happened...
John: 15 times over they think they're the normal one they think that's normal to do with a stranger this is the first thing you ever say to a stranger is something this weird oh my gosh you know because they listen to you on the show and they think like you we would be we would be best friends i get that if only i believe merlin and i don't know how to do this i don't know how
John: Because this is the problem with the rent strike, right?
John: This is a perfect moment for a rent strike.
John: But there is no unifying voice nationally or even in our cities that can really get it going.
John: I see attempts.
John: I see people like, look, if everyone that can't pay rent doesn't pay rent...
John: for a month for two months for three months um there's no way they can come after you right if everybody stopped paying their mortgages oh it's i i'm spartacus but they but but everybody stands up and says no i'm spartacus i'm spartacus if everybody rent strikes you're all spartacus yeah i'm the batman no i'm the batman uh i'm not wearing hockey pads yeah if if if
John: But the problem is there is no unity on the left.
John: There's a lot of unity on the right in a crazy way, but there's no unity on the left.
John: So nobody can call for a rent strike because nobody's got that many followers.
John: Right.
John: Everybody's just mad at each other.
John: And so there is no there's no Hoffa.
John: There's no.
John: You know, there's not a central figure.
John: Oh, I see.
Merlin: I see.
Merlin: There's not like an AFL-CIO of introverts.
John: Right.
John: There's no central figure.
John: It's by definition.
John: You couldn't be a central figure because then you'd be on the other side.
John: Thank you.
John: How are you going to be a central figure of an introvert?
John: You're going to want to leave.
John: You're going to want to leave the meeting.
Merlin: Of course you leave the meeting.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: Why is there even a meeting?
Merlin: A meeting of introverts?
Merlin: That's like military intelligence.
Merlin: Am I right?
Yeah.
John: But when the CEOs, who are largely alpha extroverts, send out that email saying, we're opening back up and everybody be at work on Monday, if the 15...
John: Introverts at that company who have been loving working at home and cranking out stuff.
John: Doing the real work.
John: Doing the real work.
John: If they say, nah, we're not coming back.
John: Rent strike.
John: It's an introvert rent strike.
John: It's an introvert rent strike.
John: We're not coming back.
John: Yes.
John: There just needs to be, you know, there needs to be enough unity that it all happens at once.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: So that the extroverts can't just say, we're turning the lights back on.
Merlin: They can't write it off as a bunch of outlier malcontents.
John: They can't write it off as, like, the two guys in, you know, in IT.
John: The two IT guys, yeah.
John: Who just don't want to come to work.
Merlin: The guys who don't let you touch their dolls, yeah.
John: And, you know, the thing about my baby mama here.
John: Yeah.
John: She's, like, she's a vice president at her company.
John: She's a very, you know, she's, like, socially adapted.
Mm-hmm.
John: And so it's not just the tech people.
John: It's not just the tech bros.
John: That's where the 30% comes in, because she doesn't have to go to work anymore if she doesn't want to, right?
Merlin: The introverts have not been counted in a lot of censuses.
Merlin: The numbers are not well known for many reasons.
Merlin: You're saying 30%, however many percent, we don't even know.
Merlin: This has been a very important concept to me.
Merlin: My friend Don Schaffner showed me this concept in the last month.
Merlin: I think about it a lot.
Merlin: The numerator is only useful insofar as we know what the denominator is.
Merlin: And the denominator, if the denominator is like we don't know how many people have been tested for COVID, then the numerator is not incredibly useful.
Merlin: What I hear you saying is we don't know what percent of introverts there are because we need to know the denominator.
Merlin: And denominators are a basically extrovert function.
Merlin: I don't know if that makes any sense.
John: It absolutely does.
John: And it's absolutely true.
John: Hard to count.
John: It's impossible to count, except it's self-select.
Merlin: How does it happen?
Merlin: How do you have a headless leader, an organization?
Merlin: How's this going to happen, John?
John: Because I feel like connecting it to...
John: In the past, it would have been thought of, and I think introverts would have thought this themselves.
John: I don't want to go, God, I don't like it.
John: It's just, I just hate it.
John: But now, there is a righteousness.
John: path right now we can stand up proud and say i am not coming back to work coming back to work is polluting it is i will not feel shame i will not feel shame for this i will not feel shame coming back to work is inefficient coming back to work is dangerous dangerous to our collective health and i this is gonna hurt my meemaw even though meemaw is not here my meemaw
Merlin: je refuse je refuse i will not i will not return we will not return and so the only people that are like well i need to come back yeah where's my performance where's my platform where's my mylar balloons i'll wear a mask there probably isn't even a disease at all but those people let them go god usually you just go we're gonna social distance italy's gonna let people go to the beach but they're gonna have plastic partitions like they're in a recording booth people are dying for their platform
John: I have no problem social distancing from people that are at work because let them be there.
John: I'm already socially distanced from them.
John: I just want also the people close to me to socially distance from them.
John: And I feel like that's easier than it looks.
John: Okay.
John: Some kind of don't tread on me flag.
Merlin: Oh, and then you don't fly it because that's what an introvert would do.
Merlin: But I want to make a big show out of it.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: The don't tread on me flag is already over there with the Confederate flag.
Merlin: It's a little bit played.
Merlin: Can I give you, we need to do our big bounce now.
Merlin: Can I give you three fast facts?
Merlin: Give me three fast facts.
Merlin: Number one is Hitler's birthday.
Merlin: Number two, oil is now down to negative $37 a barrel.
Merlin: Negative $37 per barrel, which is an interesting number for oil to cost.
Merlin: So if you have oil, you're losing money.
Merlin: Does that mean if I don't buy oil, they owe me $37 a barrel?
Merlin: It sounds like an MLM.
Merlin: The only way to make money is to make money.
Merlin: We were watching, as you may have guessed from my intimation, we've run through many, many, many viewings of Tiger King.
Merlin: It's just become our default program.
Merlin: Don't email me.
Merlin: But I said to my wife, I says, you think Junior over here might like making a murder?
Merlin: And she's like, I bet she'd like making a murder.
Merlin: Because the secret of making a murder is you get through a completely bananas first episode only to realize that...
Merlin: That first episode is just what sets you up.
Merlin: That incredibly insane episode just sets you up for how much crazier it gets.
Merlin: You need to know how we got to where this was.
Merlin: But, you know, you look at the Averys, and the Averys got that, they got a salvage yard, a junkyard.
Merlin: They're the outsiders in town.
Merlin: Something just really, in a way that it didn't land on me four and a half years ago when we first watched this.
Merlin: Have you seen the program?
Merlin: Do you know what it's about?
Merlin: It's about a... It's about a guy with the tigers.
Merlin: This is different.
Merlin: Now I'm talking about making a murderer.
Merlin: Oh, no, I haven't seen that.
Merlin: Which is a pretty big deal.
Merlin: When it came out a few years ago, I would recommend it.
Merlin: I think you'd enjoy it.
Merlin: It's pretty smart, very well told.
Merlin: Anyway, but these guys, this family that's so controversial in this, they have a salvage yard, a junkyard.
Merlin: And just to give you a sense of how my lenses have adjusted in those four and a half years, they do these probably drone shots.
Merlin: It might be helicopter, but probably drone shots.
Merlin: And so just imagine in Manitoc.
Merlin: I never know how to pronounce it.
Merlin: I've been seeing it on ice machines for years, and I still don't know how to say it.
Merlin: Manitoc, Wisconsin.
Merlin: drone shots of just endless, it's almost like if you've ever been to Arlington, what the graves look like.
Merlin: Imagine that, but with very old automobiles.
Merlin: What is a salvage yard?
Merlin: A salvage yard is a place where if your car is totaled, it goes to the quote-unquote junkyard.
Merlin: Why do we have junkyards?
Merlin: Is that a place where they go and sleep and nap?
Merlin: No.
Merlin: The idea of a junkyard, as we know from Slacker, is that you go and you find parts for your probably old automobile.
Merlin: You with me so far?
John: Yes.
John: Yes, I love junkyards.
Merlin: It only just really landed on me, four and a half years after first watching this, the idea of having that much land to just store old, inefficient car parts that somebody would use to keep their old, inefficient car running.
Merlin: And for some reason, it just landed so heavy on me last night.
Merlin: Not in a sad way, but in a like, what in the fuck?
Merlin: You can't just go start a junkyard today.
Merlin: I feel like that's the kind of perception change we're going to be seeing more of, is that how did we do this for so long?
Merlin: How did we have so much land taken up?
Merlin: with junked cars in rows.
Merlin: And I know there's reasons for it.
Merlin: At a time when you could go and I could fix up my VW, yeah, you would go and get a part.
Merlin: But I feel like that's the kind of thing, setting aside Hitler and oil, that's the kind of thing that is going to keep landing on me for, I think, weeks and months, is how was it always this normal to do this kind of insane thing?
John: And I think what's important is, and I don't know what it is about us now, but
John: in a way i guess it's it's it's future looking versus past looking maybe that that it's never been like this and and for us to look to because i do this right you look back and you think it's been so busted for so long yeah but really it doesn't matter what matters is we are here now
John: And conditions are as they are now for the first time, the first time ever.
John: It's never been like this before.
John: And there's never been less of a need for junkyards than there has been now.
John: And so rather than it's already there, be a big castle, get rid of all those cars.
John: But rather than worry about why we've had them for the last 20 years, it's just that, you know, and there are fewer junkyards now than ever before.
John: Because modern cars don't get jumped.
Merlin: You've got a computer and an oil pump, and you can't do the stuff you used to do.
Merlin: No, you can't do anything.
Merlin: The cars now, they just go right into the trailer.
Merlin: What's the thing?
Merlin: Fuel injection.
Merlin: Fuel injection plus computers means there's not nearly as many home serviceable parts on a car.
John: Nobody's wrenching on their cars anymore, unless they're building an old car.
John: If you go to a junkyard now, it's really sad.
John: And junkyards, when I was a teenager, used to be so exciting.
John: They were full of people picking out little bits for their car that they were trying to keep on.
John: You could keep your Dodge Swinger running for years in one of those things.
John: That's right.
John: But this is true of graveyards, too.
John: I mean, if you think about the amount of land just in Brooklyn that's taken up with graveyards.
Merlin: The fact that we only do them one person deep.
Merlin: I know.
Merlin: And I understand why.
Merlin: The fact that we bury people at all.
Merlin: You know why?
Merlin: Because you're servicing big headstone.
Merlin: Big headstone.
John: We should take all those headstones, we should build one big building out of them, a ziggurat.
John: And we should take all the bodies and feed them to the fish, and then build a ziggurat of headstones where we climb to the top
John: and do like the stations of the cross except they're not about a cross no they're the stations of the flat circle we do the stations of the flat circle oh i'm loving this we get to the top this very much feels like an adjunct to super train to me yep and then there's a big slide all the way to the bottom oh that sounds fun i would enjoy that
John: And this is the thing.
John: As you climb the ziggurat, you increasingly feel the weight of the world.
John: You do all the penance.
John: You do all the sorrow.
Merlin: The air gets thinner, but it's existence.
John: As you walk across the gravestones of all of our forefathers and foremothers, you take upon yourself all of their struggles, and then as you slide down the slide, you leave it all behind so that by the time you get to the bottom, all of the weight of the world has been lifted.
Merlin: You just slide away.
John: You just slide the ziggurat.
John: You just slide right out.
John: You slide out and then you're reborn, Merlin.
John: You slide right out and at the bottom there's an aperture and you slide through it and then you're reborn.
John: You pass through the birth canal of the ziggurat slide?
John: You slide out the birth canal of the ziggurat, and you are reborn, and you can do it as many times as you want.
John: You can do it 50 times a day if you want.
Merlin: Oh, that's a lot of exercise.
John: And then all that cemetery space, you turn it into a big party.
Merlin: Yeah, is anybody bringing mylar balloons?
Merlin: Are they bringing mylar balloons?
Merlin: Probably not.
Merlin: Just climb the ziggurat and slide.
Merlin: Mm-hmm.
John: mylar balloon people aren't climbing any ziggurats that's not their trip you think they're still buying mylar balloons but just keeping them at home oh for sure the mylon but the mylar balloon industry is going to i'm i should put money into it right now because when get your money out of oil and into mylar because when the when the quarantines are finally lifted for the first time right this is before the second wave of mass deaths
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: For the first time.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: You're right.
Merlin: There's the pent-up demand for Mylar balloons on top of the yay offices open again, Mylar balloons.
Merlin: That's exactly right.
John: Big Mylar.
John: Every other desk is going to have a Mylar balloon bouquet that says, welcome back.
John: And you're going to walk through.
John: You're going to have to bat them to the side just to walk through any of these open plan offices.
John: Happy anniversary.
John: Happy anniversary.
John: Happy anniversary.