Ep. 383: "President of Jokes"
John: Hello.
John: Hi, John.
John: Wow, Merlin, hello.
John: Hello, how are you?
John: Hey, gee, golly gosh, pretty darn just good on good.
Merlin: John Roderick.
Merlin: Oh!
Merlin: Roderick is on my list.
Merlin: John Roderick.
Merlin: You got a little song, even.
Merlin: What's going on?
Merlin: Roderick is watching you.
Merlin: Every dude.
Merlin: Roderick, smile.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: I was listening to Hall & Oates.
John: Hmm.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You got a feeling on Hall & Oates?
John: You got a feeling?
John: Oh, they're one of the good ones.
Merlin: Really?
John: Have we had this conversation?
John: You know, I think in the 80s, I was naturally aligned against Hall & Oates.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Just because of the various factions.
Merlin: It's not so different from CZ Top in some ways.
Merlin: I mean, in the sense that it's not something you'd get a pin for.
Merlin: Oh.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
John: Yeah, but that was also the arrow.
John: I did not feel, frankly, that Hall and Oates took advantage of all the palettes.
John: of music video making that they possibly could have given their resources.
Merlin: Mm-hmm.
John: There's an awful lot of standing in place and dancing, looking into the camera.
Merlin: Yeah, but in one shot, they're wearing trench coats.
Merlin: Yeah, exactly.
Merlin: In the other shot, they're not wearing trench coats, and they got funny hats.
John: Yeah, funny hats, a lot of sunglasses, a lot of looking straight at the camera, sat solo.
John: Yeah.
John: And, you know, they never, ever did... They never looked cool.
John: You've got Daryl Hall, who...
John: Because I look a little bit like Daryl Hall, I can never think of him as cool looking.
John: No, he looks like a seabird.
John: But he's like tall and kind of lumping.
John: He's lumping.
John: You're never going to look at him and be like, the foxiest pop star.
John: But he's also, you know, he's like, I don't know, people think he's handsome.
John: His hair has always got too much going on.
John: And then, of course, Oates.
Mm-hmm.
John: And then you've got... G.E.
John: Smith.
John: G.E.
John: Smith is not a handsome guy.
John: He's got that weird smile.
Merlin: He's always hamming it up.
Merlin: Yeah, and he's got kind of a rigor mortis face.
Merlin: He does, but even when he was later on, the band leader on SNL, I would hate when they were going to commercial and they'd cut to him.
Merlin: And he was just... I don't dislike the man, and I enjoy his guitar style, but he makes guitar face, and he's got a fedora...
Merlin: And the whole thing's kind of embarrassing.
John: It is.
John: And what I've learned in the music industry is that G.E.
John: Smith is a wonderful man.
John: Oh, I love to hear that.
John: Yeah, everybody says he's really great.
John: But no, I couldn't stand to look at him.
John: Every time it switched him, I was like, no, not him, not that guy.
Merlin: They had some banging.
Merlin: So when I was a kid and when you were a kid,
Merlin: They were, I feel like, at the forefront of Blue-Eyed Soul and the white Philadelphia sound.
Merlin: And then I guess they had records and hits.
Merlin: But then they came back around 1980, and they had some bangers.
Merlin: They had some singles for like three years that I think were very good.
Merlin: And they had that cool 808-style drum on Kiss on My List.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Well, you know, they invented the bass.
John: It was Daryl Hall's bass line that turned into Billie Jean, right?
John: What?
John: The devil you say.
John: Go ahead and listen to it.
John: Michael Jackson.
John: Michael Jackson stole, just straight up lifted the bass line.
John: From I can't go for that?
John: No.
Merlin: It sounds a little bit like I can't go for that.
John: I can't go for that.
Merlin: Yeah, it's a great bass line.
Merlin: No, I can totally hear it.
Merlin: Yeah, I mean, I will listen, but in my head I can absolutely hear what you're saying.
Merlin: So Quincy Jones, he stole a bass.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Well, this was Quincy Jones during this.
John: This maybe came out during Quincy Jones's phase where he was just slagging on Michael Jackson as a song stealer.
Merlin: That was a fun period.
Merlin: It really was.
Merlin: It was like the way Steve Albini was for 15 years, which is like, ask him anything.
Merlin: He'll tell you.
Merlin: He'll tell you everybody.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Yeah, and also like, hey, Steve Albini, what do you think about Nirvana?
John: Ah, they were a subpar shitty punk band.
John: I never liked them.
John: It's like, oh, okay.
Merlin: Well, thanks for playing.
Merlin: He had a phrase one time that I still use to this day.
Merlin: I don't think it was Pixies.
Merlin: I don't think he was too mean to Pixies, too much, overmuch.
Merlin: But he described one band that he was producing as a pinch loaf one-off.
John: So did I. What a great phrase.
John: Really ensured that I never wanted to work with them.
Yeah.
John: But what happened to me with the Hall of Notes?
John: Because I just couldn't get into any of it.
John: But the music, of course, you remember what it was like in the 80s.
John: We thought we had the worst music of any decade.
John: During the 80s, we were like, why did we have to get stuck in the 80s?
John: The only music that's worse than the 80s music is the 70s music.
John: 80s music is going to make... But then, and I've told you about this place before, the influence of this particular place, but the Gravity Bar, which was the vegan raw food bar on Broadway on Capitol Hill, it was there, I don't know, it seems like just a blink, but it was probably there for 10 years.
John: And it was this really hyper-modern by 90s standards, like stainless steel and clean white surfaces.
John: And they were cranking out wheatgrass juice.
John: They were growing their own grass right there in the venue and cutting grass with their little grass cutters and just making wheatgrass juice by the gallon.
John: You'd go in and you'd get a shot, a shot glass.
John: pony up to the bar and be like hey bartender give me a shot leave the bottle but they had all this vegan food and it was it wasn't just vegan it was like it wasn't completely raw but it was just like blanched vegetables they had a meal called the rv1 i don't remember what it was all in it but it was the first time i'd ever sat and voluntarily eaten a plate of just vegetables and
John: All the people there were beautiful in that kind of like we're vegan way.
John: Well, it's because they all probably have exquisite bowel movements.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Right.
John: And that was where the book about the blackened, hardened fecal matter book was.
Right.
John: This is all that then the guy that ended up –
John: He fasted until one day he just walked to the top of a mountain and flew up to heaven.
John: All the things that happened in this place.
John: But one time I was sitting at the Gravity Bar with a shot of wheatgrass and an RV1 chaser.
John: And talking to some beautiful person about some beautiful things.
John: And I noticed that it was Hall & Oates playing on the stereo.
John: And I thought, what are we talking about?
John: This is 95, maybe.
John: And I kind of like ironically rolled my eyes to myself.
John: I didn't comment on it.
John: I was just like, oh, Hall & Oates, exactly.
John: That's exactly, is that what we're doing here?
John: Like, ha, ha, ha, Hall & Oates.
John: And I sat there and listened to one incredible soul jam after another.
John: I knew every word of every song.
John: And by like song eight...
John: I realized that hollow notes was one of the great bands that I had been sleeping on them the whole time.
John: Cause I didn't like the music videos that I already, I didn't have to go do a deep dive on cause I already knew every note because it had just seeped into me through the world.
John: And I just, I did it.
John: This happened for me with tears to fears.
John: Tears from fears.
John: Fearful tears.
John: Tears from, tears for fears.
John: Tears for fears.
Merlin: Stop your sobbing.
Merlin: This episode of Roderick on the Line is brought to you by Squarespace.
Merlin: You can learn more about Squarespace right now by visiting squarespace.com slash super train.
Merlin: Friends, there's so much that you can do with Squarespace and
Merlin: In the main, I will say that you're going to use it to create a beautiful website.
Merlin: That's what they do.
Merlin: That's Squarespace.
Merlin: But you're going to turn your cool idea into a new website.
Merlin: You can showcase your work.
Merlin: You can publish a blog or put up other kinds of internet content.
Merlin: You can sell products and services of all kinds, promote your physical or online business.
Merlin: You can announce an upcoming event or a special project, and so much more.
Merlin: You can do this all right from your computer or from your connected device, as they say.
Merlin: And you're going to put that on Squarespace.
Merlin: Now, how do they do that?
Merlin: Well, Squarespace does this by giving you beautiful templates created by world-class designers.
Merlin: Powerful e-commerce functionality that lets you sell anything online.
Merlin: The ability to customize the look and feel, settings, products, and more with just a few clicks.
Merlin: Literally just a few clicks.
Merlin: Of course, everything is optimized for mobile right out of the box.
Merlin: I love that you can preview what your page will look like on different devices.
Merlin: But it's responsive, so it works on every dingus.
Merlin: You can tell them I said so.
Merlin: Squarespace also has a new way to buy domains.
Merlin: You can choose from over 200 domain name extensions.
Merlin: They offer analytics that help you grow in real time, built-in search engine optimization, free and secure hosting with nothing to patch or upgrade ever.
Merlin: And of course, they have their 24 by 7 award-winning customer support.
Merlin: Make it stand out.
Merlin: Stand out with a beautiful website.
Merlin: Build it beautiful, as we used to say.
Merlin: You know, I'm a big fan of Squarespace.
Merlin: And you're using Squarespace right now by listening to the Roderick on the Line podcast because all our stuff is on Squarespace.
Merlin: Like, all of it.
Merlin: The things.
Merlin: It's all on Squarespace.
Merlin: So be like us.
Merlin: Most like me.
Merlin: John doesn't really do much with this.
Merlin: I mean, you know, he's the heart of the show, but I do...
Merlin: A lot of the heavy lifting along with Squarespace.
Merlin: So here's what you do.
Merlin: You go to squarespace.com slash super train and get yourself a free trial.
Merlin: And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code super train to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
Merlin: They've been great to us.
Merlin: They've been great to me.
Merlin: Please go to squarespace.com slash super train and use that offer code super train for 10% off.
Merlin: Our thanks to Squarespace for supporting Roderick online and all the great shows.
Stop.
Stop.
John: From that moment on, it was like a conversion experience.
John: Welcome to your life.
John: I went from
John: On the way into Gravity Bar, if somebody had stopped me with a clipboard and said, hey, what do you think of Hall & Oates?
John: I would have been like, Hall & Oates?
John: Really?
Merlin: Because let's be honest.
Merlin: 1995, you're playing Hall & Oates.
Merlin: For context clues here, I'm just going to gather.
Merlin: You hear Hall & Oates at a fancy white, very white, vegan place called the Gravity Bar.
Merlin: That's probably ironical.
Merlin: They're probably doing some ironical.
John: Well, it felt ironical.
John: But the thing about the thing about Broadway and Capitol Hill is right.
John: This was like the capital of the gay community for the Northwest.
Hmm.
John: And so when you're talking about vegans, you got one group of people.
John: Oh, boy.
Merlin: Here we go.
Merlin: Oh, boy.
John: That sounds problematic.
John: Listen, there's good vegans and there's bad vegans.
John: Hipster, like super, super hipster vegans.
John: You're talking about now you're getting, you know, you're on the blade of a sword at this point.
John: You're talking about super, super hip vegans.
John: vegan gay people you're at the point of the spear and i don't it wasn't ironic we had gone by 95 whoever was whoever was was cutting grass in the behind the bar had gone hit they were way ahead of me right they had made the ark across the sky the sun was pulled by their golden chariot and i was still all the way back here you know i was back in uh 91 thinking it was
John: Thinking that my 87 attitudes still applied when we were in 95.
John: Shame on you, John.
John: Shame on you with 87 attitudes.
John: The Golden Chariot was in 97.
John: Wow.
John: Wow, yeah.
John: So, whoo.
John: Yeah.
John: But then, you know, walking out that day, I was like, I'm back or I'm someplace I never was, which is I think Hall & Oates is amazing.
John: And I've never left that place.
Merlin: I've had very, I think, very similar experiences.
Merlin: And I'm not asking you to agree on the experience or my taste here.
Merlin: But I've been in places like that, like a coffee place, trying to write.
Merlin: And there'll be something coming over the speakers.
Merlin: And I'm not paying a ton of attention.
Merlin: But, you know, let's be honest.
Merlin: Most of the time it reads as pap, you know, pop music.
Yeah.
Merlin: And personally, just as a side note, as we've said before, I'm not a fan of ambient media, especially in a restaurant.
Merlin: I would really prefer not to have screens showing stuff on TV.
Merlin: I would really prefer that there not be music that I can notice.
Merlin: If I can notice it, it's too loud for my taste, personally.
Merlin: Turn it off.
Merlin: Let alone, like, I go to pick up my hot dog at the hot dog place, and they're showing, like, Judge Judy, and the satellite's cutting out, and the entire experience is just balls.
Merlin: No thank you.
Merlin: But I feel like one day I was sitting there, and I heard a song, and I was like, man, this is really catchy.
Merlin: And then I was like, I had this probably similar thing.
Merlin: Well, you're super familiar with Holland Notes, but I had this dawning realization where I was like, wait a minute.
Merlin: I know you were in trouble when you walked in.
Merlin: And I went, whoa.
Merlin: I think I might super like a Taylor Swift song.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Yep.
John: Yep.
John: So Tay-Tay and I, we go way back.
John: I have always been on Team Taylor.
John: I don't know.
John: And I think what happened was I went to that –
John: I went to that Miley Cyrus concert and, uh, I had, I had, I was somewhat transformed by seeing Miley Cyrus in concert.
John: And then I, then I realized that Miley Cyrus was feuding with Taylor Swift.
John: Oh, okay.
John: And so then I was like, all right, well let's see what all this, let's see what the hullabaloo with Taylor Swift is.
John: Cause I'm, you know, I feel like Miley Cyrus is, is pretty banging.
Um,
Merlin: So she'd been through the ringer a little bit and came back.
Merlin: She had that increasingly dusky voice and she was repping something a little wilder and more tattooed than Taylor Swift for sure.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: For sure.
John: But that's when I realized don't underestimate Taylor Swift because although she looks a lot, you know, she looks squeaky.
John: by comparison to Miley Cyrus, there's nothing squeaky about Taylor Swift.
John: I mean, yeah, there's lots squeaky about her.
Merlin: I mean, like it or not, she is pretty good or effective at managing her own brand and having her story such as it is.
John: And I think the thing that makes me mad, the only thing that inhibits my
John: complete love of Taylor Swift is that she dated John Mayer.
John: And I really, it's very hard for me to forgive that.
John: Yeah.
John: And that's the problem because I mean, they're, they're, I can think of a dozen examples of people that have dated John Mayer that, that it upset me, hurt me a little bit.
John: And Taylor's on that, you know, in that group of people, it's not their fault.
John: John Mayer's I'm sure very handsome guy.
John: I've never seen him.
John: I've never.
Merlin: Well, you know, as much as we try not to get caught up in this kind of thing, it's...
Merlin: like you said for a long time, God, I don't want to go too far back, but you said for a long time that not only is a certain kind of popular 70s and 80s genre bullshit, but that the way that we try to lionize, well, the way that we crave what we think of as authenticity in music or like in the branding of music, it's a little silly.
Merlin: And each of us has our own vulnerabilities for like, you know, oh yeah, like I'm...
Merlin: Whatever.
Merlin: I'm a Captain Beefheart person or I'm a Patti Smith person.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: But it is a little silly the way that at least somebody like me, I'm okay with my bullshit buy-in on somebody's deal.
Merlin: But when somebody else does it, I think they're simps.
Merlin: you know what i mean and like so but then on top of that all it's like we don't know those people like sorry not not to kill the bit but we don't know those people i don't know john mayer i don't fucking anything about him you know what i mean i don't why am i why is it i hear that i name like like his and i go like like i don't know you know i go i do that i do that i don't know me too i don't think i could tell you one of his songs i just think of him as a punchline
Merlin: He's like Coldplay to me.
John: All you have to do is go listen to any of his songs, and I think you'll find that is very justified.
John: That's very justified.
Merlin: Self-same noise.
Merlin: Okay, so anyway, I took you off your chair, Taylor.
John: John Mayer has some relationship to Bozeman, Montana.
John: I think he either lives in Bozeman or chose Bozeman as his, as his like pied de terre.
John: I'm not sure, but you know, I have a lot of friends in Bozeman and, um, apparently John Mayer, like it does the thing where he shows up in your bar or just tries to be a regular guy does.
John: And the other, the other problem is that he, he seems like he might actually be kind of,
John: cool or a neat guy i mean he's not he doesn't show up in your bar and he's not lame he kind of just like is fine i guess and stuff that sounds like a resoundingly positive report yeah and that just makes me even it even makes me madder kind of and and uh at one point he had he showed he has some like really big jacked up cool montana style truck that you can live in and
John: He drove down to Coachella and was living in his truck.
John: And I don't know.
John: Everything about him just makes me want to kick him in the knee.
Merlin: So that colored your Taylor awareness.
John: Everything.
John: Oh, Taylor.
John: So, yeah.
John: Well, anyway, I just feel like Taylor, she's quippy.
John: That's what it is.
John: I like a quippy person.
John: I was on the Omnibus Facebook page a little while ago, and there was a guy that said something that was a little quippy.
John: It was on one of those threads where somebody came into the thread and was like, I really love Omnibus, and I joined this group because I thought it was going to be really cool over here, but everybody is so snarky, and it's not fun, and they...
John: Told me that me.
John: And then there was a really long thread of people saying, it sounds like what you want to do is not be a member of this group, which is something you can do.
John: Like, give it a try.
John: And there was a lot of, you know, it was one of those threads because everybody needs to pile on at that point.
John: You got 200 comments.
John: Like, why not have 201?
John: But somebody said something snarky that was kind of like a, it was kind of a sick burn of me.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: And so I went in with some mock outrage, you know, like, how dare you, sir?
John: And then replied to that with an even sicker burn.
John: And I said, you know, I agree with the OP of this post that this group sucks, except only as it applies to this one person, you.
John: And then the poor guy comes in like, oh, I'm sorry.
John: I didn't mean to, you know, and walks it all back.
Merlin: And I was like, no, no.
Merlin: You're still doing the bit.
Merlin: I was doing the bit.
Merlin: Doing the bit.
John: And, you know, on one hand, Merlin, I think I may have established something I've been trying to establish online, which is that I am a prickly and easily angered bull that
John: who is maybe blind in one eye, so don't sneak up on him.
John: Oh, like an old sea captain.
John: Like an old sea captain.
John: Somebody that at one moment will be being nice and then will turn on you and like... I've sent more posters down the plank than you've had hot meals.
Merlin: The worst, you know?
Merlin: I love this idea.
Merlin: It's so attainable.
Merlin: This is so attainable for you.
Merlin: Old sea captain you could totally do.
Merlin: Yeah, where I'm just like, oh, that's a funny joke.
John: Oh, yeah, yeah.
John: You did a funny one there, matey.
John: Oh, you're hooking right up to the line, matey.
John: Okay.
John: Give it one more try.
John: You're out.
John: You, I want you dead.
John: Kill him now.
John: Throw him in the brig.
John: So whoever this kid is is just moonwalking back like, no, no, no, I didn't mean to.
John: Oh, no, please don't.
John: And I had to go on and say like, hey, you were fine.
John: Your jokes were funny.
John: I was like,
John: Yeah, we were having fun.
John: I just – and partly I love the fact that I can like flop sweat somebody.
John: Because everybody's got a certain amount of Stockholm Syndrome now.
John: I feel the way about email.
Merlin: I mean, it's not always obvious, but I do try to evolve in life, and I try to become a less difficult or misunderstanding person.
Merlin: I try, but I sometimes fail at that.
Merlin: But yeah, I think I successfully, unintentionally made people terrified to email me, and I secretly kind of love that for my own selfish reasons.
John: People do this to you online all the time, which I...
John: I see it a lot, which is people come to come to you in your feed and either say, I'm sorry for being here in the feed.
John: I'm sorry for I'm sorry for talking to you.
John: But they don't have anything else to say.
John: They just want to come apologize for having spoken to you or the ones that anytime you do anything kind of nice or or, you know, participatory, there's somebody in the thread that's like, I can't believe Merlin.
John: I can't believe Merlin said one thing that was friendly or generous or whatever.
John: And it's just like, wow, they really.
John: Did I ever tell you this?
John: Somebody sent me a letter in the mail.
John: And I opened it and read it.
John: It said they were suckers.
Merlin: Was it from the government?
John: Yeah, it was.
John: But there was a letter in there.
John: to you oh god and the letter was uh i was like unsealed and there was post-it note on it that said john this letter is to merlin i left it unsealed so you can read it oh will you please mail it to merlin okay okay okay and i and i opened the letter and it was it was a beautiful beautiful hand typed letter and it said dear merlin
John: I, uh, I know I am not supposed to contact you.
Merlin: Do you need me for this one?
John: And so I'm, so I'm definitely, so I'm not contacting you via email.
John: And I wanted to write you this letter to let you know, signs, a fan, something like that, a very elaborate setup.
John: And, um, and I, at the time made the executive decision that, that I was just going to interrupt you.
John: I was going to interrupt that gag and not send it to you.
John: I have a little stack of things that people have sent.
Merlin: No, yeah, I do too.
Merlin: I got stuff in my closet that I keep meaning to give you.
Merlin: I don't know why people – yeah.
Merlin: No, it's nice.
Merlin: But like it's super nice.
Merlin: It's super nice.
John: It's nice.
John: It was funny and I liked it.
John: I think I might have even kept it because it felt as much for me as the – you know, what's funny is I'm the one person in the world who got to be –
John: on all sides of that joke.
John: And so it was as much for me as it was for you.
John: Okay.
Merlin: Here's a, here's a, here's a thing I'm just pulling out of my ass right now.
Merlin: Um, um, let's see, how can I, how can I put this?
Merlin: That isn't weird.
Merlin: Um,
Merlin: If you were the sort of person – I should just avoid this.
Merlin: I could try and make this about improv, but I think I could.
Merlin: It's somewhat more successful if I make it about mutually consensual erotic power exchange.
Merlin: which is a thing.
Merlin: Hopefully it's mutually... But here's the problem.
Merlin: I think a lot of people who get some interest, some angle on this power exchange racket, I think they come in with somewhat different angles.
Merlin: What you get at one far end of it is people who are in a community where there are... You don't even... It would be like...
Merlin: You know, the same way that like most people go to a party and wouldn't take a shit on the coffee table because they've been to enough parties to know you don't do that.
Merlin: Like, you know, you could read a book.
Merlin: There's probably a book you could read that says, listen, if you're going to go to parties, don't take a shit on the coffee table.
Merlin: You go, OK, I'm going to highlight that part.
Merlin: That's really good.
Merlin: But there certainly are people who get into arrangements with people where they have very different ideas about what's OK.
Yeah.
Merlin: But if you're there because you really want to hit somebody in the face, you're not going to fit in well with the community.
Merlin: But on the other hand, if you get in or even just a given partner, you're going to seem like you're a horrible, abusive dick.
Merlin: But on the other end of it, if you're not into the playfulness of that and the fact that it is a game, a mutually agreed to game...
Merlin: it's not going to be as fun and you might get your feelings hurt.
Merlin: Anyway, let's say it's about improv, not sex things.
Merlin: I think that's the same thing that happens online.
Merlin: It's sometimes difficult to know whether something is a bit, how much it is a bit.
Merlin: But also, just because you like being spanked doesn't mean the world is allowed to spank you.
Merlin: Like you get to pick who's allowed to do that.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: So I don't know if I'm straining this horrible analogy too badly.
Merlin: I think that happens a lot online.
Merlin: There's a lot of misunderstandings where somebody comes in and they think they just want to have some, some light spanking, but then they come in and they're acting like a big spechatron 5,000 to strangers.
Merlin: And then the stranger spanks them back so fucking hard.
Merlin: It knocks them on their ass and they go, Hey, I thought we were having fun here.
Merlin: It's like, well, you know, read the room, man.
Merlin: Get the tone right and don't shit on the coffee table.
John: At least once a week, I feel like I flame somebody really hard who might have just been trying to play.
John: And I read a thing and they're like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
John: And I just go, what the fuck?
John: How dare you?
John: And also...
John: I poison your well.
John: I salt your fields.
John: Yes.
Merlin: And then... Nothing honorable has happened here.
Merlin: We're putting up the spikes.
Merlin: For 10,000 years, no one may enter you.
John: Right.
John: But then I mute them because I don't know who taught me that, but it's a wonderful thing because you mute them.
John: And then they can just piss into the wind for 1,000 years.
John: They're probably still out there texting me going...
Merlin: I was just kidding.
Merlin: But also nobody has – I mean who has time for – let's cut to the chase.
Merlin: Who has time for the overhead of manicuring every individual relationship and soothing every nerve?
Merlin: So what do you do?
Merlin: You end up trying – obviously everybody does the best they can.
Merlin: That's a belief that I have.
Merlin: But like I'm not going to be perfect every day.
Merlin: If I didn't respond to your thing, I'm sorry.
Merlin: I hate to make this about social media.
Merlin: All I'm trying to say is that like go into it.
Merlin: We should all go into it.
Merlin: It's just, you know what, John?
Merlin: I almost feel like this needs to be a shirt.
Merlin: This needs to be a Roderick thing.
Merlin: I don't mean it as a bit.
Merlin: Read the room.
Merlin: Fucking read the room.
Merlin: Read the room.
Merlin: There's so many people that don't read the room.
Merlin: You've got to read the room.
Merlin: You've got to read every room.
Merlin: And what does that mean?
Merlin: I mean, you tell me, what does it mean in general or specific?
Merlin: What does it mean to read the room?
John: Well, you got to know – you have to have been in a lot of rooms to read the room.
John: Am I right?
Merlin: You have to have been in a lot of rooms to be able to read a room.
John: Yeah.
John: You can't just – you can't read a room because you read it in a book.
John: You can't read a room because – Okay.
John: You know, like you have to have –
Merlin: You have to have been in rooms where it wasn't read, right?
Merlin: So having somebody who's been in the room when somebody didn't read it over a long time, and then conversely being a person who misread a room and learned that, you are now qualified to at least start understanding the importance of reading a room and maybe take some baby steps to reading the fucking room yourself.
John: You have to recognize when someone has read the room wrong.
John: If you don't recognize when someone has read the room wrong, you can never learn to read the room.
John: You have to have been in enough rooms to see someone read the room wrong and be reviled.
John: You have to have been in rooms where you tried to read the room and were wrong and were ruined.
John: And you have to need to...
John: care enough to learn that because I'm speaking from personal experience I know you've been in this situation too where you watch somebody get read the room wrong and they get reviled and you're like ooh ah oof they will very often not understand why they got the response that they did because they have not read enough rooms correctly and you're watching it from the side and you're like I'm talking about me as a young man watching somebody from over here and like oh ooh
John: oh, you should have read The Room.
John: And then I've been in the situation where I was like, hey, everybody, come to my birthday party.
John: And, you know.
Merlin: Yeah, now pretty soon you're Peter Brady in a double-breasted suit, la, la, la.
Merlin: And there's a lot of pop on the table that nobody's going to drink.
John: I've definitely told this story before about how I took my buddy to a grunge rock party and he was sitting in the kitchen and he leaned over to the guy that was nodding off on junk who had a baseball hat with the brim bent up and it said suicide on it.
John: And it was like nodding off in the kitchen and my buddy elbowed him and was like, where'd you go to college?
John: And I was like, oh, dude, read the room.
John: Read the room.
John: A talking junkie.
John: But then, you know, so you have to go through it.
John: So it's a trial by fire.
John: And I guess what it is, Merlin, is that people that have grown up socializing on the Internet have never had to read the room.
John: Because if they come in and say, hey, everybody, come to my birthday party.
John: They're Peter Brady in double rusted suit.
John: they don't feel the cold chill.
John: If nobody replies, they just like, la, la, la.
John: Oh, God, I think, okay, yes.
John: I've never had everybody at a party turn and look at them and then slowly turn and look away.
Merlin: Oh, my God, because they're bad at reading the room, they're bad at reading the room.
Merlin: They're bad at reading their room.
Merlin: Oh, it's recursive.
Merlin: Okay, here's the thing.
Merlin: I think I got it.
Merlin: If I had to distill it down to a concept, this might not be broad enough, but I think the most basic context,
Merlin: So when you enter into a situation, like, for example, a room that has people in it.
Merlin: Or a virtual room.
Merlin: Let's call it a virtual room.
Merlin: You can get it on an internet.
Merlin: You can walk into an internet with people on it, right?
Merlin: I think the concept, if I could boil it down, is...
Merlin: Before you try to insert or overlay your deal on what's happening in there.
John: So that requires that you understand that you have a deal.
Merlin: Sorry, step zero, realize you have a deal.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Yes.
John: You've got a deal.
Merlin: But like before you come in and decide to be the BMOC in that particular real or virtual room, the reading of the room is what enables you to know what has been happening or what is happening and what is appropriate, desirable, acceptable to what you're going to be bringing to that situation.
Merlin: I hope that's not over long.
Merlin: But for example, like have you ever walked into a room and you can tell immediately that they were talking about you?
Merlin: There's a tone.
Merlin: There's a feeling.
Merlin: There's that feeling.
Merlin: Let's go to an extreme example.
Merlin: Maybe you walk in and everybody's weeping and there's a casket in the room.
Merlin: That would be another one.
Merlin: It could also just be you walk into the house where everybody is, what music is playing.
Merlin: Is it quiet or loud?
Merlin: Are the doors open or closed?
Merlin: There's all kinds of things that tell you what's happened over the last 10 minutes to two hours and when you get home.
Merlin: So I try really hard not to come in and I try not, because I have a big personality, John, and I try really hard not to have my big personality land on everybody else's room.
Merlin: So I think that extends to all kinds of situations where you can come in, just explore the space a little bit, come in a little bit, just come in.
Merlin: You don't have to come in with an air horn and a whoopee cushion.
Merlin: You can come in and just see what's everybody else up to in here.
Merlin: You can Dale Carnegie that shit, get interested in those people.
John: Hmm.
Merlin: Is this making sense?
John: You've touched on something before that I think is salient here.
John: Yeah.
John: And I think this is a big part of this reading, which is I think a lot of people do not understand that every social encounter, every social experience is an exchange.
John: And it's a little bit of what you were saying earlier about the about consensual sex politics or consensual sex, sexual sex politics.
John: But, uh,
John: It's an exchange.
John: And so you have to be conscious of what you are bringing and what value it has to the person you're trying to get into an exchange with.
John: And I think a lot of people online especially think that all exchanges –
John: are like the only thing that they're thinking about is what they can get out of the exchange.
John: Patton Oswalt is sitting there in his house.
John: He's got his phone out.
John: He's looking at his Twitter and you're trying to get something from Patton, an acknowledgement, a look, a tap, something you're trying to get.
John: You're trying to get Patton Oswalt's attention.
John: And what what most people don't think is, what do I have to give Patton Oswalt?
John: Not just like selflessly, but what am I giving him in exchange for his attention, right?
John: Because he has, as you are fond of saying, a limited amount of attention, a limited amount of energy.
John: If I'm going to try and take some of it, what am I going to give him?
John: What am I going to give back?
John: And a lot of people, I think, think their joke is funny, maybe, and that their joke is the gift to Patton Oswalt.
John: But you have to.
Merlin: Yeah, I mean, how could you fail if you make his joke to him, for example?
Merlin: Right, right.
Merlin: You're a regular Brian Dennehy.
Merlin: You character actors can eat all you want, right?
John: Yeah.
John: If you make a joke and maybe you think that Patton is going to – that that's going to improve his sense of humor and it's going to make his comedy better.
John: Give him some notes.
John: You know, like, hey, I made a joke.
John: You can take that except if you do – if you use it, I'm going to sue.
John: And so I get into this.
John: Follow me so I can DM you about how to contact me.
Merlin: Exactly.
John: I find a lot of times that failing to read the room is a matter of not realizing that.
John: I'm a person with a limited amount of time, just like everyone.
John: I don't have, I don't, I'm not, I'm not.
Merlin: No one is unique in that regard.
John: Yeah.
John: And this isn't like, I'm not special.
John: I'm just saying I log on to Twitter.
John: I've got some business to do.
John: One of those things probably isn't to work out what your deal is and why you are coming at me or after me or, or toward me.
John: Like, what are you offering?
John: And that is the, that is step one of reading the room.
John: Understanding what you're bringing.
John: Because if you're not bringing anything, if you're just standing there with your food bowl, arms outstretched, like, please, sir, may I have some more?
John: Then, in fact, that is a role.
John: Do that.
John: But acknowledge it and don't stand there with your food bowl out and think you're a comedy writer.
Yeah.
John: Right?
John: Don't go into a party with your little wooden bowl, but around your neck is a sign that says, President of Jokes.
Merlin: Holy shit.
Merlin: That's the problem.
Merlin: But also, it's like I'm trying to avoid using unnecessarily weighted terms like this, but there's a lot to do for now.
Merlin: Doing one's own version of drive-by branding or drive-by humor.
Merlin: which is where you're just passing through.
Merlin: Let's talk about Twitter here.
Merlin: I'm sure it happens on Instagram, too.
Merlin: You're just passing through and just taking just a tiny little shit on everything.
Merlin: Not intentionally, but just going to go, never liked that guy.
Merlin: I'll go like, you know me.
Merlin: I'm almost spooching.
Merlin: I like to be positive.
Merlin: There's stuff I love.
Merlin: I want to share what I love.
Merlin: If you don't like it, that's okay.
Merlin: But I go, hey, check out this Boogie Oogie Oogie song.
Merlin: I never realized these lyrics are so good.
Merlin: And this didn't happen.
Merlin: Well, I haven't checked.
Merlin: It might have happened.
Merlin: But then somebody comes in and goes, I never understood why people like music.
Merlin: And you're like, oh, okay.
Merlin: Thanks.
Merlin: Thanks.
Merlin: Go to the next one.
Merlin: Click through.
Merlin: Click through.
Merlin: First of all, A, probably a guy in a necktie.
Merlin: Second, he loves local sports.
Merlin: And third is just an ongoing crop dusting shit spray of like nobody needed to hear that.
Merlin: You didn't read the room.
Merlin: You have no way of even knowing how much the room didn't like what you said because you're in and out like a thief in the night.
Merlin: On to more crop dusting.
John: You and I have been in several hotel lobbies over the years.
John: You definitely are – I think you probably more than a lot of people are conscious of not wanting to get into people's physical space, not wanting to walk over to somebody that you admire and say like, hey, don't want to bother you.
John: I just wanted to say I admire you.
Merlin: I mean you do do it, but you're like – I'm very aware of the Patton Oswalt stipulation.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: I don't want anything I say to somebody I admire.
Merlin: I don't want my one time experience with them to be a burden or confusing.
Merlin: Like I don't.
Merlin: And who knows?
Merlin: Maybe they just got out of a gig.
Merlin: Maybe they have to take a shit.
Merlin: Like maybe maybe somebody just died.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: And me coming over and go, hey, it's good.
John: But the other thing is, and this is the this is the corollary to that is that.
John: I often and on Twitter, not just on Twitter, but sitting in hotel lobbies, but but in a house with my friends.
John: Right.
John: If you're sitting there and you see Paul F. Tompkins and Amy Mann having a having a joke.
John: Now, if you're a rando who's just like, I also have heard jokes.
John: You're.
John: I guarantee going to.
John: you're going to put your foot right in the cake.
John: But even if you're friends with both people, I will see them making a joke and I will feel like I want to be in the joke.
Merlin: I want to... 90% of my experience in the fancy celebrity lounge on Joker Cruise was like, I would love to participate in this, but I'm going to stay the fuck out.
Merlin: I really want to... Let them solve their puzzle.
Merlin: I will watch them solve their puzzle and I will enjoy it.
Merlin: I will watch the introverts...
Merlin: I'll watch the introverts camp out together without getting into their fucking tent.
Merlin: Hey, guys.
John: And it's so hard.
John: I mean, it's so hard for me to walk past two friends who are having a joke and not try to slide in and like get in on it.
John: And part of, you know, part of the real challenge of reading the room when you're in show business is recognizing when to be the audience, when to be the audience, which is most of the time.
John: And if you're in a – if it's after the show and there's six people sitting around the lobby and you really start to –
John: like throw the badminton birdie around to one another back and forth back and forth yeah um it's one of the great things but if it but most of the time it's two people with the birdie and and you get to be on the side you know like there yeah but but on the side that's a hard it's very hard to learn if if you're used to being the center of attention if you're
John: In my case, I can think of 15 heartbreaks where I took a step forward in a situation like that and said, you know what, Jon Hamm?
John: I've got an anecdote.
John: And it wasn't Jon Hamm that was not interested in my anecdote.
John: It was the room.
John: Right.
John: Jon Hamm would turn and be like, oh, sure.
John: Tell me your anecdote.
John: But the freeze would come on.
John: And the freeze was the eight other people standing there who are like, oh, dude, we don't want your anecdote.
Merlin: Like Jon Hamm was in the middle of a good way to put that, because it reminds me of 1985.
Merlin: I learned later that this was a setup and not a real thing.
Merlin: But 1985, Unforgettable Fire Tour on I think it was maybe bad.
Merlin: Bono pulls somebody out of the audience to play guitar on bad.
Merlin: And it's mostly an A and a D. It's suspended.
Merlin: It's not that hard.
Merlin: Anyhow, story goes, everybody's like, oh, my God, that lucky guy, he got up there.
Merlin: Supposedly, supposedly, that same guy played a lot of Bay Area shows.
Merlin: I don't know if that's true.
Merlin: But it's one thing for Paul Houston Bonneman to go and say, hey, kid, come up here and play guitar.
Merlin: Courtney Cox, come up here and dance with me, says the boss.
Merlin: Or, you know, whatever that's going to be.
Merlin: Or like Dave Grohl, pulling a guy out of the audience to play on Monkey Wrench.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: That's one thing.
Merlin: Now, here's the other thing, because then the audience gets a fun proxy and go, wow, that guy's even better than I expected.
Merlin: It's cool that that guy knows how to play monkey wrench and is wearing kiss makeup.
Merlin: That's really cool that he did that.
Merlin: The audience will enjoy that because that's part of the show that Dave Grohl in that case wanted to have.
Merlin: What's less fun is somebody who walks on stage and starts wandering around and then becomes the focus of attention.
Merlin: Not because Dave Grohl is going to be mad.
Merlin: Who knows?
Merlin: But because the audience has collectively just had all of their attention diverted from the fun thing that they were there for.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: Are you with me?
Merlin: The fun thing that everybody, there's whatever 10,000 people were there for, is now focused on not the thing that they're there for.
Merlin: And it's not super fun.
Merlin: They've made that, that person has made it about them.
Merlin: And they did not read the room.
John: Have you ever...
John: Have you ever watched Nirvana at Redding the entire kind of thing show?
John: Uh-uh.
John: So the Redding concert, which is kind of among Nirvana people –
John: Kind of broadly acknowledged as like an absolute triumph.
John: Wow.
John: When was it?
John: It's the one where he came out on stage in a wheelchair in a straitjacket or whatever, and it was their first appearing at the Reading Festival, I think, as a headliner.
John: It's in England.
Okay.
John: It was like peak of their powers, Nirvana.
John: It was sort of short haired Kurt Cobain when he had he had for a little bit.
John: He looked like John.
Merlin: Is this ready ready sweater era or Daniel Johnston T-shirt era?
John: What am I going to say here?
John: I mean, is it like after is it after in utero?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Got it.
Merlin: I saw them with the breeders opening and it was extremely depressing.
Merlin: Oh, at a civic center.
John: Oh, no, it was, it was the fact that they were headlining Redding or playing, you know, after dark at Redding was, it was, this was a big deal.
John: The show.
Merlin: Oh, sort of like not even a coronation, but a sort of arrival or crossover.
Hmm.
John: This was just like – because they toured in the UK and they got famous in England and they were – but this was like almost a triumphant homecoming.
John: Like the first time they played at the Paramount here.
John: Anyway, they come out and they play – I'm pretty sure everybody agrees like they play as good as Nirvana can be.
John: It was – oh, it's still three-piece Nirvana.
John: And the sound is amazing.
John: But there's a guy –
John: On stage with them, like doing the freak out dance.
John: If you were in a grunge rock audience and you were banging your head and swinging your hair and moshing, but there was no one else there.
John: If it was a mosh pit and you took any one mosher and then you took everyone else away.
John: And that mosher was just kind of whirling, dervishing around the...
John: to the floor there's that guy except he's on stage see it's one thing to do that in the audience but but he's on stage and i think on stage throughout the show not just he doesn't just come out and do it for a second and uh and then fuck off into the audience which he should have done uh if he was going to do it at all but he came out and did it
John: through the show.
John: And in most cases you don't, most, most cases there, because it was filmed with a multi-camera setup.
John: It's possible to do a cut of any one particular song where you kind of minimize the appearance of this guy.
Merlin: Yeah, if you get a multi-camera thing, you can cover up a lot of stuff.
John: You cannot use any of the wide shots.
John: Because any shot, and I'm sure they had five cameras set up to do wide shots of the whole stage.
Merlin: That's going to be the most eye-catching thing in the frame.
Merlin: That's right.
John: And this guy was some dude...
John: whose band toured with nirvana in 1989 when they were driving around in a van and they were playing you know little little damp clubs and they became friends because he was the whatever fucking bass player of some band called toe the wet sprocket or whatever band it was
John: Some, some band that never went anywhere.
John: Not totally the wet sprocket who are one of the great bands of all time.
John: Sure.
Merlin: Oh, I like, like pants monster.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Or fire cock or something.
John: And so the next time Nirvana came back to England, this guy was there and he was, and Oh, and I guess on their like shitty club tour, the guy would get up and bang his head on and Nirvana thought it was funny.
John: And so then he did it again on the, you know, the next time they came through when they were playing, you know, big clubs or whatever.
John: And so here they are at Redding.
John: The guy shows up.
John: And Kurt, you can just hear him, like, you can hear him go like, yeah, you know, sure, you can dance on stage with us.
John: That'd be hilarious, you know.
John: That'll really piss people off.
Merlin: Are you being sarcastic?
Merlin: I can't even tell anymore.
Merlin: Yeah, you know.
John: Yeah, that'll subvert the dominant paradigm.
John: That guy's cool.
Yeah.
John: A cannonball guy is cool.
John: And so this fucking ding dong comes out on stage and with the tacit endorsement, I guess Nirvana, you know, said, yeah, you can do this.
John: Well, as soon as he started doing it, you know, for a fact that all three members of Nirvana were like, okay, dude, that's enough.
John: Because this was a triumph.
John: Standing up on stage at Reading, looking out over that crowd, realizing that you are the biggest rock stars on the planet, that has got to be like walking on the moon.
John: And to, in your periphery, see some dude that you knew from five years ago taking all the energy that is being directed at the stage and diverting it onto himself as he...
John: flails around you know like you want him to stop and i'm and i know for a fact that all the members of the band all of their entourage everybody in the audience everyone in the world wanted him to stop but the guys the guy's not picking up on that at all i wonder in that situation given my experience of the world whether or not he wanted to stop
John: Whether he got out there and realized this has been a terrible, terrible mistake.
John: But that everyone involved, if he had turned to Kurt and said, well, this is weird.
John: I got to go.
John: I bet you Kurt would have said, no, dude, dude, you got to keep doing it.
John: Like in the spirit of that attitude, that moment, everyone was so wrong.
John: That Kurt would have been like, oh, no, that was awesome.
John: And the dude would have said like, oh, yeah, it was awesome.
John: Like it got into one of those reverse peer pressure things where instead of trying to get you to smoke pot, they're all so committed to the bit because they believe that wrong is right.
John: They believe that bad is good.
John: Like it's so lame that it's cool.
John: And they and what happened was it spoiled the show to a certain extent.
John: Right.
John: If that guy hadn't been on stage, you would have seen footage from the Redding.
John: They spent so much money recording it.
John: The music is great.
Merlin: So in that case, the thing that was taken away, well, a lot was taken away.
Merlin: There was the people who, maybe at least of all the people in the audience, didn't get the same potentially classic show they would have gotten.
Merlin: But also then the band didn't get a performance that they could be proud of to share with the world.
John: Right.
John: I mean, the band had their walk on the moon.
John: Ruined by a guy that they don't really know or care about.
John: Some friend that they met on tour that they know.
John: Right.
John: But it's not like the guy's ever been over to the house.
John: And he's just up there freaking out through your whole show.
John: I mean, I for sure have stood on enough stages to know that if there was somebody up there that didn't belong on the stage, I would want them to leave now.
John: No matter what, you know, even if I invited him up.
John: And what happened with that was history was deprived of the Reading Festival as one of the great Nirvana documents.
Merlin: Well, yeah.
Merlin: I mean, it's almost like – what's the analogy?
Merlin: It's almost like you've been working on making your home cook and you finally make this one really difficult dish –
Merlin: just the way you want, but at the last minute, I don't know, somebody put a salt lick in it or something, and you're like, oh, see, now, okay, that's really not going to be good now.
Merlin: Why didn't you read the room, which in this case is the kitchen, to just soak up all of the stuff you probably miss every minute of your life about what's actually happening around you, rather than what you don't even realize you're...
Merlin: bringing the kind of too big, potentially very negative and disruptive energy that you bring to a room because you haven't been, you haven't, you haven't read enough rooms to know like what dick behavior that is.
John: It's funny because you remember when there was that rocket launch a few years ago that everybody was watching some kind of rocket business.
John: I forget which one it was.
John: And one of the guys at Mission Control had a funny haircut.
Merlin: Remember this?
Merlin: I don't, but I'll look it up.
John: There was some kind of NASA thing, and it was like everybody was watching in real time on Twitter.
John: I forget what it was.
John: It was post-Space Shuttle.
John: It might have been
John: Rocket X landing backwards on it.
John: Oh, that's pretty.
John: Yeah.
John: Some kind of thing like that, except it wasn't that I don't remember what people got distracted by a haircut.
John: No, no, no.
John: It wasn't that it was it was very exciting space mission.
John: There were dozens and dozens of people involved.
John: And one of the science people had a funny haircut.
John: And it was an intentionally funny haircut.
John: It was not like funny.
John: It was like punk rock or it was a personality haircut.
John: Okay.
John: God, I really want to find this now.
John: And the thing about the personality haircut was that the person wearing the personality haircut was very competent at doing their science job.
John: And so...
John: What they weren't doing was making the spaceship event about themselves by talking in a funny voice or by babbling or getting in the way of stuff.
John: They were just doing their thing.
John: Yelling Baba Booey.
John: Yeah, they were doing their thing but not yelling Baba Booey.
John: They just had like a personality haircut.
John: And so they became kind of rightly a takeaway.
John: Like rightly they were celebrated as part of this.
John: Because they were cool looking and also maintained their science job.
John: And it was the fact that they were doing what they were meant to do.
John: Like they were there for a reason and they were doing it well.
John: You can you can have as many personality haircuts as you want.
John: Like that's the classic.
John: Right.
John: Distinction, right?
John: They're not there for the haircut.
John: They're not there because of their haircut and they're not trying to make their haircut the center of attention.
John: It just is there.
John: Meanwhile, they're pushing all the right buttons.
John: And if the if the dancing dude, the Nirvana dancing dude, there's just no way he could have justified being on stage except that he came out, did three spins and then hurled himself into the audience.
John: If he had done that, he'd be legendary.
John: We'd all know his name.
Merlin: I keep thinking of a character – I think this is based on a real person, but there's a character in 24-Hour Party People who was on the scene I think at least from the time of the Sex Pistols show.
Merlin: This guy, John the Postman.
Merlin: I don't know if you ever saw this movie, but there's a guy who –
Merlin: like he's in his, like he's in his English postman outfit, but it's also got safety pins all over it.
Merlin: And at the end of every show, he comes on stage and sings Louie Louie either by, and it's very, very bad.
Merlin: So he either does it by himself or in some cases with the band, but,
Merlin: And I don't know the facts of that.
Merlin: I don't know if that's exactly true or that that is exactly a real person.
Merlin: But it's a bit that the bands have sort of agreed to.
Merlin: It's like part of the fun.
Merlin: Part of the punk rock fun is that this postman with safety pins on his official uniform comes up and does this and it's really, really bad.
Merlin: That's what I keep thinking of.
Merlin: Or I keep thinking of like all the, you know these people better than me, but the extraneous dancing man in several bands.
John: Oh, Hazel.
John: Hazel had a famous dancing man.
Merlin: There's also the, you know, the famous one in Manchester, the band, the Brothers.
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: The dancing.
Merlin: Bez?
Merlin: Dancing Al.
Merlin: Bez.
Merlin: Bez.
Merlin: Dancing Fred.
Merlin: Or I think that's kind of how Bob started in Pavement before he became like an official percussionist.
John: I believe that's true.
Merlin: But that's a different thing because – now we're getting really into too deep about this probably.
Merlin: But I do feel like you should – we should – unless it's part of the show and it's known to be part of the show, I feel like it's kind of important to stay the fuck out and like let the people have their show.
Merlin: And –
Merlin: So just to return to the reading the room thing, it's something I am really trying mightily to get better at.
Merlin: Because here's the problem.
Merlin: You really nailed this.
Merlin: Do you feel like you don't read the room?
Merlin: I feel like I sometimes don't.
Merlin: Well, let me put this... So what did you say?
Merlin: You said the first...
Merlin: So I had said something like you come in and you've got your deal and that's what you're going to overlay on the room before you realize what is already happening in the room.
Merlin: And you said the thing that precedes that is realizing that you have a deal.
Merlin: I think that is a big problem is people don't realize they have a deal, that they have a deal.
Merlin: Their de facto or default way of entering a room is much more invasive or disruptive than they realize.
Merlin: So I don't know how you get to realizing that.
Merlin: As far as myself –
Merlin: Yeah, like sometimes I'll come home and I'll be yipping and hollering and doing this and that.
Merlin: Or sometimes I come home and I'm in a really sour mood.
Merlin: If I have a sour mood in a given day, it's usually in the afternoon when I'm sort of like shifting from one energy state to another.
Merlin: And sometimes I'll just be, I won't realize that like, John, have you ever done this?
Merlin: Have you ever got home or gotten to like go pick up your kid and maybe you're in a sour mood?
Merlin: And before you can learn about something that happened,
Merlin: you don't read the room and maybe you say something that's a little off kilter.
Merlin: You don't realize till later that the kid had a huge victory that day.
Merlin: And it would have been nice for you to, I'm not making this about you.
Merlin: I'm making this about me.
Merlin: I've done this so many fucking times.
Merlin: It's like, I come in and I'm like, people don't know how to walk.
Merlin: And it's like, oh yeah, you know, she sat up today.
Merlin: Oh, okay, cool.
Merlin: Um, but you don't let people have their victory.
Merlin: You don't let people have their moment.
Merlin: You don't let people have their environment, not you, but like one, you, the person who's not reading the room and the person I try, I'm struggling to less be is the person who just storms into every room and is ready to just be Mr. Guy.
Merlin: And I, I try really hard to do that, but I got to say, having realized this, I don't think we've talked about reading the room that much.
Merlin: This is something I realized a couple of years ago as a, uh,
Merlin: an epidemic of epidemic social problem is the lack of room reading.
Merlin: Cause we're so used to being in our own little fucking room that, you know, especially with the internet and stuff.
Merlin: I feel like we've become less sensitive to like how to sit down and have dinner in a restaurant without being totally obnoxious.
Hmm.
Merlin: Like, I mean, if he really is everybody.
Merlin: I mean, again, now I'm just like an old crank for a minute.
Merlin: You know, if you want to photograph your your food for Instagram, Hakuna Matata.
Merlin: But like, why is it that the people who photograph their food are also frequently the very loudest people in the place?
Merlin: Have you ever?
Merlin: Am I wrong?
Merlin: Do you notice this at all?
John: It's been so long since I went to a restaurant, I don't – I know.
Merlin: Am I right?
Merlin: But there's always this kind of like overly – like even in line – because you know, as my wife has pointed out, millennials love experiences and waiting in line for experiences.
Merlin: And like even waiting in line for an experience at the fucking mall while you're waiting to get your Japanese waffle that's in very limited supply –
Merlin: Like people are like wearing lots of makeup and taking pictures of each other and doing cute, you know, like little peace signs and all that kind of stuff.
Merlin: And it's just it's this cacophonous din of people all in their own room.
Merlin: And in most cases, who cares?
Merlin: Who fucking cares?
Merlin: You're just going on with your life in your personal world or in your social world of oneself, though.
Merlin: It's valuable to ask how good you are at reading a room.
Merlin: If you're going to go to Patton Oswalt's thing, you know, boy, there's just so many things I would say don't do.
Merlin: You know, read the responses.
Merlin: What did other people already say?
Merlin: Oh, my God, what a shocking idea.
Merlin: Oh, there's so many.
Merlin: The same one that I was about to do.
Merlin: Exactly.
Merlin: Just like you should Google your jokes.
Merlin: And spell check your tweets.
Merlin: But you go in there.
Merlin: So what are you going to do?
Merlin: You're going to you're going to do one of his jokes to him.
Merlin: You're going to say, oh, you know, you're going to you're going to explain the joke.
Merlin: You're going to you're going to add your own joke.
Merlin: As I say, BYOJ, the bring your own joke problem.
Merlin: And I don't know.
Merlin: It's I'm not saying this out of my own frustration with others.
Merlin: I'm saying this out of my own exhaustion with myself.
John: Well, there's a trick to this because a lot of the examples that we've used and a lot of, I think, and probably 99% of the examples people are thinking of all have to do with assertive people or extroverted people who are barging in.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: But there is another, I mean, there are, but there are not another, there are a hundred ways to be intrusive.
John: Right.
John: And they aren't all.
John: Or disruptive, right?
John: Or disruptive.
Merlin: Debbie Downer is a kind of disruptiveness.
John: Exactly.
John: There's, it's not always an assertive person.
John: There is a fashion in the contemporary world to walk into situations, plop yourself down and go, I can't even be here because I'm too blank.
John: And that happens.
John: Don't even ask.
John: It happens over and over, right?
John: Where you're like, hey, it's Paul F. Tompkins and John Hammer here.
John: And someone, no one in the room knows, walks into the middle and
John: Plops down and goes, I wish I could play with you guys, but I can't because I wasn't invited or no one likes me or I've got an owie or whatever it is.
John: Oh, droopy.
John: And, you know, they just they're earring through the world as a form of attention getting as a form of, you know, and in a way it's very aggressive.
John: But there are ways to fail to read the room and not even make a sound.
John: The question is, where are you standing in the room?
John: Like, have you put yourself in between the bride and groom?
John: Yeah.
John: And you're there, like, in between the bride and the groom, and your mascara is running because you've been crying all afternoon, but somehow you're in all the photos?
John: Like, there's a...
John: There are 50 ways to misread the room, and they're not all the example that we like to dump on, which is the kind of like, hey, everybody, check me out.
John: I'm dancing.
John: I'm dancing.
John: And the person that often ruins the scene is the one
John: that believes of themselves that they are absolutely not the aggressive, you know, they hate that person as much as anybody.
John: You know, they're the ones that think of themselves, that are walking through life thinking of themselves as not making an impact and somehow manage to translate that into
John: Like creating a giant crater everywhere they go.
Merlin: That's a kind of passive aggression where, if I could say, you become this, I don't know, almost like a societal sin eater.
Merlin: Like, oh, everything has been done to you.
Merlin: And here's where you are now.
Merlin: And who's going to, oh, Deborah, I'm so sorry.
Merlin: Like, what are you supposed to say?
John: Right.
John: I mean, the vibe is...
John: If I can't have fun, then nobody's going to have fun is kind of the vibe.
Merlin: And I've never been to a sex party, but I have to imagine you don't want to be that person at the sex party.
John: No, no one consents to you.
John: But it's not and it's not just people that come online that, you know, everybody's making a joke.
John: And then there's the person that's like, oh, you know, there were 300 people killed in school shootings in the last week.
John: Do you really think that this is funny?
John: Right.
John: Now do Obamacare.
John: It's not just that person who is definitely a kind of person.
John: Yeah.
John: But it's just the person that – and I do this too.
John: I mean I am often – I'll often make a comment or be in a situation where I realize as soon as I've done it, oh, wait.
John: You know what I was there?
John: Not aggressive.
John: Not trying to intrude.
John: Not –
John: Being a bummer.
John: What I was was just extraneous extraneous.
John: Yeah.
John: And in a world where everyone's attention is is fractured.
John: Does there need to be one extra person?
John: All right.
John: In no presence.
Merlin: You weren't presents.
Merlin: You were wrapping.
Merlin: I was wrapping.
Merlin: Christmas morning comes, and you're just a big contractor bag full of paper.
Merlin: Woof.
Merlin: Woof is right.
Merlin: Ooh, that hurts.
Merlin: That's too real for me.
Merlin: It's so much work to be in the world.
John: Oh, God.
John: It's 100% more work than anyone ever said.
Merlin: It's so much more work.
John: It didn't, it doesn't have to be this way if we all just, you know, if we all just were like in the old days where.
John: Yeah.
John: Must be around the fire and tribes of under 150.
John: Not even that.
John: Like, do you remember like your early jobs where there were six people that worked at your work and then you had some friends?
John: Yeah.
John: Maybe six.
John: Oh yeah.
John: Right.
John: So you had six friends that you saw.
Merlin: I think you can only really have three good friends.
John: Well, I know there's all kinds of BuzzFeed articles about that.
Merlin: You should check out my Uprox series on this.
Merlin: You won't believe what happens next.
Merlin: More after the jump.
John: I was on a BuzzFeed listicle the other day and some mom at my daughter's school was like,
John: You were on BuzzFeed, loves to call.
John: Oh, God.
John: Yeah, I know.
John: That was some tweet, wasn't it?
John: And it wasn't even my RTD2 tweet.
John: It was something else.
Merlin: Wow, you're blowing up.
Merlin: I know, right?
Merlin: You should get a SoundCloud.
Merlin: Here's one.
Merlin: Don't bring your guitar to the party.
Merlin: Bring a bag of ice.
John: Oh, I know you're a big fan of Bag of Ice.
Merlin: Bag of Ice.
Merlin: Bag of Ice in a 12-pack was always my go-to, and maybe some Funyuns, because people don't think they like Funyuns until they're eating Funyuns, and then they go, holy shit, I forgot how much I like Funyuns.
John: I have never once brought my guitar to a party.
Merlin: Whoa, not even a campfire spaghetti party.
Merlin: That was somebody else's guitar.
John: Yeah.
John: Someone else's guitar.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: But you know, there is, I think we've probably both been, I know I'll speak for myself.
Merlin: I've been this guy where when I get to the party and I see a six string, I do go over and pick it up and start playing gardening at night for no one in particular.
Yeah.
John: gardening at night i stay so far away from i was at a funeral the other month nice that was good and uh there was a guitar there
John: oh please yes yes please please please and uh and people kept coming up to me at the you know at the funeral basically and saying like hey later are you gonna grab that guitar and do something oh no
John: And I was like, nope, nope, nope, nope, not going to, so don't bring it up again.
John: Is it because you couldn't think of a good song?
John: Well, I just – no, I don't – there was nothing less that I wanted to do than play The Commander Thinks Aloud at this guy's funeral or whatever it was that they were – Take a load off, Fanny, everybody.
John: And so as the night wore on and people got drunker –
John: More and more people started to say, like, when are we going to get you in there to the other room where the guitar – and you could hear people playing guitar in there.
John: And I was like, oh, boy, I'm working my way over there.
John: Just had to stop at this bowl of Cheetos.
John: And I eventually Irish goodbyed the funeral.
John: Oh.
John: I went into the kitchen to refill my glass and went out the side door and walked down through the snow to my rental car and got in it and drove away.
John: Because the fear was on me so hard that someone was finally going to grab... Because there were a lot of big...
John: men at this funeral.
John: And one of them was going to grab me by the shoulder and say like, come on, you're coming with me.
John: And I would have been like, let me go.
John: Come on, let me go.
Merlin: I wish I could, but I need to get back to me ship.
Merlin: This is a song by from Athens, Georgia.
Merlin: Boxcars, boxcars, out of town, boxcars.