Ep. 407: "A Constellation of Pushbacks"
John: Hello?
John: Hi, John.
John: Hi, Merlin.
John: How's it going?
John: Good.
John: Good?
John: Is it early?
John: It's pretty early.
John: I've not...
John: I've been going to sleep on time at the right time.
John: I went to sleep at 5 in the morning, and it's too early to wake up if you go to sleep at 5 in the morning.
John: Yeah, yeah.
John: No reason either.
John: No reason.
John: It's not like, I mean, midichlorians, the only reason I can think of.
John: Have you been tested for that?
John: Be honest.
John: I'm pretty high up in the midichlorians.
John: I'm not surprised at all.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: It's like when you have your really smart friend says, oh, I just got an IQ test, and my IQ is like 780 or whatever.
Merlin: Maybe that's SAT.
John: I don't know.
Merlin: Yeah, 780 in math.
Merlin: 780, 781, like real good.
Merlin: And you go like, I'm not surprised because you seem really smart.
Merlin: In your case, I bet you could wield the powers of the force with an almost singular level of focus.
John: Well, the problem is I didn't get into my training when I was young.
Merlin: You got to get them when they're young.
Merlin: That's what they say.
Merlin: Yeah, that's right.
John: And the problem is once they realized I had so many midichlorians, I was too late.
Merlin: If you got into the academy with the younglings –
Merlin: I think you would be considered at my college, they would call you a non-traditional student, which is a way of saying older than you're supposed to be for Jedi school.
John: That's exactly right.
John: That's exactly right.
John: But you know what?
John: Sometimes those students are the best.
John: They really enjoy their education.
Merlin: Oh, sometimes.
Merlin: Hell, man.
Merlin: Woof.
Merlin: They're always the hardest working because, you know, they really want it and they're probably paying for it out of their own pocket.
Merlin: It's not just a Pell Grant.
John: You know what I mean?
John: That's right.
John: That's right.
John: They're working and they're struggling, but they're there to learn.
Merlin: There's sort of people that don't take a third short story class and then not do the reading, for example.
John: Thank you.
John: Thank you.
John: But they keep me up.
John: They keep me up because they're clacking.
John: They're so kinetic.
John: They're just rattling around in my blood.
John: Yeah.
John: And the force power, too, is tough.
John: You're laying in bed.
John: You can hear thousands, millions.
Merlin: I don't have that, obviously, but I bet it's a little too much coffee.
Merlin: You get too much force.
John: I have a little too much force.
John: Also, we do have a new coffee maker.
John: The devil you said.
John: And the new coffee maker, I don't know, you know a lot.
John: Thanks, man.
John: Can a new coffee maker make coffee stronger with fewer grounds?
John: I'm going to say yes.
Merlin: I'm going to say yes.
Merlin: I'm going to say yes because it might have something to do, I'm not a physicist, but just off the dome, I'm going to say heat of the water could differ.
Okay.
Merlin: Think about those old percolators where you're just boiling coffee, basically.
Merlin: You're boiling coffee.
Merlin: You're not supposed to boil it.
Merlin: It is said.
Merlin: It is said it should be just a little bit below boiling.
Merlin: More like a, what is it?
Merlin: What are we looking for?
Merlin: 220, 221, 210?
Merlin: Wait, what's boiling?
Merlin: What's boiling?
John: Oh, 1,000.
Merlin: 1,000?
Merlin: Okay, all right.
Merlin: No, 1 Kelvin.
Merlin: One Kelvin.
Merlin: Never met him.
John: But I'm going to guess.
John: It's a calorie is the temperature.
John: Right.
Merlin: One Kelvin is the number of calories that you burn over one breakfast.
John: Yes.
John: I don't know.
John: I get confused.
John: One calorie is the amount of energy it takes to boil one drop of water for one.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: And that's cubic Kelvins.
Merlin: You know, I got to tell you, I got no problem with Celsius when we're talking about stuff like boiling and food and whatnot.
Merlin: I mean, I could get used to that.
Merlin: I will never get used to Celsius to describe the temperature because that's silly.
John: Celsius is not enough numbers.
Yeah.
John: No, that's right.
John: It's 17?
Merlin: What does that even mean?
John: I mean, when I grew up, the temperature was 17 all the time, but it had different meaning.
John: I feel a little bit like you and I are both Dan Benjamin right now.
John: Both of us.
John: Do we need two of those?
John: Is that a good idea, do you think?
John: What would happen if you took Dan Benjamin and then you gave him Dan Benjamin to talk to?
Merlin: OK.
Merlin: You know what I've started doing, again, also accidentally, not because of midichlorians.
Merlin: I forget the name of this.
Merlin: There's a name for this.
Merlin: But I want to say not bifurcated sleep, but something like that, where I've been doing this thing where I see I'm going to be positive about this, not negative.
Merlin: I fall asleep on the couch watching TV.
Merlin: usually YouTube videos, and then I wake up somewhere between 2 or 5 a.m., right?
John: Isn't that nice?
Merlin: And you know what I say to myself, John?
Merlin: I say one of my favorite phrases.
Merlin: I say, I've decided not to let it bother me, is what I say.
Merlin: Oh, I've decided not to let it bother me.
Merlin: Bother me.
Merlin: I decided not to let it bother me.
Merlin: And instead, now it's a joyful time.
Merlin: And I'm doing, like, colonial people.
Merlin: Because, you know, colonial people and whatnot, they used to wake up in the middle of the night and, you know, do sex stuff or take a walk or write in their commonplace book or try to coin their hat or whatever you do.
Merlin: And then you would go back to bed.
Merlin: But you'd have, if you're looking in a regnum, where you'd be awake for a while.
Merlin: And for me, that's where I usually eat some leftovers.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And then stand by the heater for a minute and then get in bed.
Merlin: And it's real nice.
Merlin: I do sleep a little later as a consequence.
Merlin: It does put a hole in my quantifiable sleep time.
Merlin: But I think the key part, if one is going to make that work, is to say I've decided not to let it bother me.
John: But you're a proponent of second sleep.
John: You know, we did an omnibus on second sleep.
Yes.
John: Wait, wait, wait.
Merlin: Let's talk about I haven't heard this episode.
Merlin: Let's talk particulars.
Merlin: You talking about my concept of bonus sleep or are you talking about like colonial tricorn sleep?
John: Oh, the colonial tricorn sleep.
John: What's it called, John?
John: Is it bifurcated sleep?
John: What is it called?
John: Second sleep is what they called it in colonial times because they didn't call things things like bifurcated sleep.
John: They didn't have Latin yet.
John: No, they called it yee, second sleep, and there was an e at the end of second.
John: Ye second sleep.
John: And then there was an E at the end of sleep.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: Second sleep.
John: Second sleep.
John: That's stupid.
John: But yeah, people got up.
John: That was when they did their taxes.
John: That was when they practiced skateboarding.
John: It all happened at night.
John: Oh, they would do like kickflips?
John: Kickflips out in the yard.
John: People would come by.
John: But then they'd go back to sleep.
Yeah.
John: And that is what you claim to be able to do?
John: You wake up at 5, you walk around, you visit the neighbors, and then you go back to sleep?
Merlin: Okay, listen, listen.
Merlin: One thing that I'm saying here, you know, pound sign privilege, is that because of all kinds of things, it depends on the day, I don't have to be up at the ass crack.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: A day like today when I record with my friend John Roderick at 11 a.m.
Merlin: Pacific, I know I have a little bit of leeway.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: But, you know, I couldn't have done that when I had a job where I had to be there at 8 a.m., or God forbid, when I had to be at school at 7.15 a.m.
Merlin: You have to adapt, John.
Merlin: You have to adapt.
Merlin: Midichlorians or otherwise, don't you think adaptation becomes important?
Merlin: You adapt a little bit.
Merlin: You're tough as nails.
Merlin: It's just that sometimes the nails, you know, I have nothing to say about this.
Merlin: But you do seem to kind of feel bad about your sleep patterns.
Merlin: Or you feel bad about the results of your sleep patterns.
Merlin: Am I anywhere close?
John: I'm very adaptable.
John: Because in any situation, I can make it work, right?
John: Like I could do the show on zero hours of sleep.
John: I could do it on 24 hours of sleep.
John: I could do it in the rain.
John: I could do it on a train.
John: In a box with a fox.
John: That's right.
John: And I have, right?
John: We've done this show where I've been in some far-flung locales.
John: Oh, heck yeah.
John: You know, cobbled together some kind of microphone setup.
John: And that's true across the board.
John: But what is the problem is that over time, these things catch up to me.
John: The doctors and my girlfriends...
John: have all agreed over the years on a lot of things.
John: Yeah.
John: My girlfriends and the doctors have agreed on a handful of crucial things.
John: And one of the things for the last 10 years has been that they both believe that I have sleep apnea.
John: And it's the same thing as...
John: when they both agreed on bipolar and it's the same thing all the way back when they both agreed on ADHD, the girlfriends and the doctors, I don't, I didn't want to hear it and I wanted to ignore it for as long as possible.
John: And the, um, and you know, we've talked quite a bit about me ignoring the bipolar for between 20 and 30 years.
Um,
Merlin: But that was not any one thing.
Merlin: That was a constellation of pushbacks, right?
Merlin: And part of it was you didn't want to go to the doctor.
Merlin: Part of it was you didn't want to get medicine from the doctor.
Merlin: I mean, it wasn't just because you couldn't find time in your schedule.
Merlin: There was more to it, right?
John: Oh, well, I just didn't want to take pills.
John: I didn't want to be fixed.
John: I didn't want to, I mean, anything.
Yeah.
John: And with sleep apnea, it's for, it's just the latest, but also somehow like sleep apnea.
John: I mean, being bipolar, I don't find it.
John: I don't know.
John: It's not embarrassing.
John: I don't think I thought it was embarrassing.
John: Uh,
John: But sleep apnea just is embarrassing.
Merlin: And wearing a little machine at night, I don't want to do that.
Merlin: Okay, I'm going to throw my support behind you here.
Merlin: I am not proud to say this.
Merlin: What I will say for myself is I think for a typical person, a man of my age, I think I am, I could be way wrong about this, but I think I'm not very hung up on as many of the things that other people get hung up on.
Merlin: And maybe that's just because I am very fortunate in a number of ways.
Merlin: But, like, I mean, I have hair, so I don't have to worry about my hair.
Merlin: But, like, all the stuff where, like, you know, every time somebody – how can I put this?
Merlin: Every time somebody, including someone we've mentioned here, makes fun of somebody for, quote, unquote, getting old, I'm always thinking, like, well, what's the alternative, right?
Merlin: Oh, good point.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And, you know, it's like I'll take the aches and pains.
Merlin: I'll take the, like, oh, I strained my back leaning over to pick up a spoon.
Merlin: Like, I don't feel great about that, but it's better than the alternative.
Merlin: And if I were being a little bit sappy, which I'm not, but if I were being a little sappy, I would think there's a lot of people in my life that I wish got to be a little bit older.
Merlin: I bet they would have given anything for a little more time to be alive.
Merlin: Yes.
John: Yes.
Merlin: But with all of that said, I have to disclose, I just, I'm sure it would be fine if I got the mask and the machine.
Merlin: I'm sure I've learned from William Shatner that you need to keep that thing clean.
Merlin: You need to really, really keep it clean.
Merlin: A lot of people don't know that.
Merlin: The mask.
Merlin: I hate to say this.
Merlin: I have just enough information.
Merlin: Pride?
Merlin: Probably not, but something that makes me resistant to the path that I'm nearly certain will lead me to a machine and a mask in order to sleep.
John: You are saying you're coming out as a sleep apneic.
Merlin: I know it would help me.
Merlin: I know it would be good.
Merlin: I imagine I'd snore less, which my wife would love.
Merlin: All those things would be great.
Merlin: I could solve a lot of problems.
Merlin: And there's other times where I think I would just like to be on oxygen, like my grandfather.
Merlin: I feel like part of... I'll tell you why.
Merlin: I've talked about this with other friends of mine who have anxiety.
Merlin: And I know that I can't... It's difficult to exactly connect these dots.
Merlin: But I know during the night, I end up doing sometimes a really weird thing where I kind of pull my face open in order to get more nostril opening.
Merlin: It's like, I gotta breathe.
Merlin: Because I have terrible sinuses.
Merlin: I'm always snorting on this show.
Merlin: But, you know, I think to myself, sometimes I wonder if...
Merlin: There's a possibility that I'm not getting enough oxygen, or as you say, air.
Merlin: And that somehow that lack of oxygen in that part of the pulmonary system is then as a consequence of making my heart beat more.
Merlin: And what happens when your heart beats more?
Merlin: Well, you get anxiety because your heart's beating.
John: Oh, sure, sure, sure.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: You don't follow the money is what I'm saying.
Merlin: And I wonder if I'm partly anxious.
Merlin: This is not science.
Merlin: No, although it's not against science.
Merlin: It's not science, but I've wondered that.
Merlin: But no, I'm just being square with you.
Merlin: You would know.
Merlin: You could force choke me if I was fibbing.
Merlin: I'm just saying, I don't want the machine.
Merlin: I have so... I'd be more machine than man.
Yeah.
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John: I don't know.
John: You know it to be true, Merlin.
John: Good.
John: Good.
John: I also feel like maybe a lack of air in the night...
John: is causing me to die faster or something.
John: Die or deteriorate?
John: Do you notice deterioration?
John: Deteriorate.
John: Deteriorate.
Merlin: Ordinarily, one likes keeping air and humidity out because that keeps something fresh and nice.
Merlin: It sounds like you're saying you're getting inadequate air and that's killing you a little bit.
John: Maybe.
John: Maybe.
John: When my daughter was little, she had trouble breathing at night.
John: I mean, I would sit next to her bed and she would...
John: Or not choke like that, but she would just stop breathing.
John: That's apnea, I think.
John: Well, so we took her to the doctor.
John: The doctor was examining her.
John: The doctor started to laugh, and I was like, what are you laughing about?
John: And she was like, this child has the biggest adenoids I've ever seen.
Merlin: Is that the thing that makes you sound like Jerry Lewis?
Merlin: Is it adenoids?
Merlin: Adenoid?
John: It sounds like a Jerry Lewis word.
Merlin: Adenoid.
John: Adenoid.
John: Because, wait, you call somebody adenoidal.
John: Yeah.
John: What does that mean?
John: I think it means it's.
John: No, no, no.
John: Yeah.
John: It's enlarged lymphatic tissue between the back of the nose and the throat.
John: Often hearing speaking.
John: Okay.
John: So she had these big adenoids, and also her tonsils were big.
John: And so the doctor was like, well, we should just take the tonsils and adenoids out.
Merlin: If this was 1975, they'd already be gone because everybody had to have their tonsils out.
John: Except I didn't.
John: Me neither.
John: Well, right.
John: Because I don't know why.
John: Because we missed 1975 or maybe by then we were too old.
John: Yeah.
John: If you were born in 1972, maybe.
John: But I was resistant to the idea of elective surgery because I didn't have my tonsils out or my wisdom teeth.
John: until some fateful day in my fucking forties.
John: Yeah.
John: But, um, that I, that I'm not going to go into, but I was like, okay, fine.
John: You know, I, I am so nervous about, about her at night.
John: Cause I go in there and I just, I, you know, I did, I used to sit in a chair for an hour, just watching her sleep and like,
John: kind of on the verge of, of, of worry.
John: So she took, she went to the doctor.
Merlin: I don't know if this is related, John, but I, I think like a lot of young parents, new parents, first time parents, I just, we, my wife and I both spent a fair amount of time poking the child to make sure that she wasn't dead.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Are you alive?
Merlin: Are you alive?
Merlin: Are you now?
Merlin: Are you alive now?
Merlin: I could work myself into a tizzy over that if I'm being honest.
Yeah.
Merlin: So you would sit next to her.
Merlin: That must have made you so, I don't know, worried.
John: Well, yeah, because she would take a breath and then she would not take a next breath.
John: That's how you die.
John: That's how you die.
John: It's exactly how you die.
John: So she had her tonsils out and her adenoids out.
John: And ever since then, ever since then, she sleeps on her back.
John: She breathes clear and clean.
John: She's never, ever, her breath has never stopped.
John: She's never gurgled or snored or...
John: And I'm like, why didn't?
John: I bet I have really big adenoids.
John: Maybe it's why we can't whistle with our fingers.
John: Well, it's probably why I can hear my voice changing into my dad's voice every day.
John: My sister has been coming over a lot since the quarantine, since she's in our bubble.
John: And probably twice a day, she laughs.
John: And I go, what?
John: And she's like, you sounded just like dad then.
John: And I go, stop it.
John: And she's like, no, I don't mean it.
John: It's not an insult.
John: It's a compliment.
John: And I was like, it is not a compliment for me to start sounding like dad.
John: She's like, it was just the way you phrased it and the thing you said and the way it sounded.
Merlin: I mean, if you said to her, I'm guessing everybody loves your mom.
Merlin: But like, I'm guessing if you said to her, oh, God, you sound more and more like mom.
Merlin: I bet she would not go.
Merlin: Thank you.
Merlin: No, she would – although – no, no, she wouldn't.
Merlin: Nobody likes being told they sound like their parent.
Merlin: That's not the compliment that it feels like.
John: The thing is that if I were to say to Susan, you sound just like mom now, between us, that would mean you sound really –
John: Heartless and cruel.
Merlin: She'd go in your closet and stomp on your toys.
John: Yeah, that's exactly right.
John: She would be like, what?
John: And it would be something to the effect of...
John: Have a little compassion.
John: Yeah.
John: She's only half milking.
John: Mom, if you ever listen to this, we mean it in the best possible way.
John: We say it with love.
John: That's the beauty part, though, is it won't bother her.
John: That's the beauty of your mom.
John: That's right.
John: No, I mean, it bothers her in the sense that she keeps a running list of all the times that I've been wrong.
John: Oh, right.
John: Okay.
John: So she would just be like, you're wrong about that, among other things.
John: It's important to stay busy.
John: But I wish that I didn't have these adenoids, which are probably the source of the problem.
John: And I can feel them in my nose just waiting to shut off the air.
John: But then you hear stories.
John: You hear them walking the streets like I used to do, being at the level of the streets.
Yeah.
John: That at my age to have a tonsillectomy with an adenoidectomy, my recovery time would be six years.
John: Oh, my goodness.
John: That's a long time.
John: I would lay in bed in constant pain living on strawberry milkshakes for between six months and six years.
John: And I don't want – I just do not want some surgery that – because your body doesn't heal.
John: My kid was up and rolling in four days.
John: And she had the cutest little raspy sort of Kathleen Turner voice for four or five days.
John: It was so cute.
John: We made so many tape recordings of her saying a bastic of breakfast with this like, I'm back to breakfast.
John: It's like, oh, I'll play him.
John: I play him for myself right now.
John: So let's say that I went.
John: to a sleep center where I lay in bed in front of what I can only imagine is a plate glass window
John: where people in lab coats are watching me through the window, and I fall asleep.
Merlin: See, I imagine it being a little bit like in face-off when they go into the face-off area, and they're going to do what they do in face-off, and it's real dark.
Merlin: I imagine it's, well, I'm just saying, science is involved, but it's a little bit dark.
Merlin: I think you're also going to have a lot of wires and sticky pads.
Merlin: That's what I don't want.
Merlin: I can't sleep like that.
Merlin: I need to be unencumbered.
Merlin: My left leg cannot be covered.
John: I can't even go to sleep at 5 a.m.
John: in my own room with blackout curtains.
John: God damn it.
John: Do you think I'm going to be able to go to sleep in a sleep clinic with a bunch of stickers on me?
John: No, no, no, no.
John: But then let's say that happens, and let's say I, quote, unquote, wake up in the morning or afternoon, and they're like, ha, you have sleep apnea, brother.
John: You woke up 45 times.
John: And they make you watch a video.
Merlin: Maybe like it's real fast, like a security video, and they show all the times that you're going...
John: Or it's like a drunk driving video where they show people with sleep apnea dead wrapped around a phone pole.
Merlin: Oh, I've never woken up a dead man.
Merlin: Yeah, and maybe they put some yackety-sacks over it.
John: Mr. Roderick, this is part of the treatment, please.
John: I don't want any of this.
John: I do not want it.
John: No, no, no, no.
John: But then let's say I lay in bed...
John: And I have a machine that's got – it's like the machine that Royal Tenenbaum put into the attic.
Merlin: Yeah, you're tied to machines that make you breathe.
John: It's like all of a sudden – You're the guy in one.
John: No.
John: No.
John: And then what am I going to – how am I going to –
John: How am I going to pretend that I'm a young, vital, active man in his early 50s that still has a lot of appeal in the world and –
Merlin: I mean, especially if now, I mean, I don't know a lot about your life, but like if something were to come along where you ended up staying over at somebody's house, right?
Merlin: You had a nice visit.
Merlin: Yeah, where's your machine?
Merlin: Well, you say like, come up, let's have a cup of coffee.
Merlin: And then, you know, you end up spooning.
Merlin: And you're like, hang on, I got to bounce because I have a suitcase full of electronics that help me breathe at night.
Merlin: BRB.
Merlin: Keep the couch warm.
John: you know, I had a, I had a realization the other day.
John: Yeah.
John: Uh, and it is, uh, that I have always been interested in style and, uh, and clothes and glasses and interesting, you know, like sort of practices, like, you know, the, the, the home haircutting and the, the kind of,
John: I don't know.
Merlin: Sometimes I have a mustache, you know, like... It seems to me that you're interested in, I don't want to say body adornment, because that sounds like you're wearing hoop earrings, but that you're interested in the ways that you can express yourself or present yourself through various self-authored and chosen changes to your appearance.
John: Yeah, appearance and, you know, and I'm interested in clothes at the level of them being like artifacts and...
John: like, uh, collectibles, you know, like I, when I buy an article of clothing, it always, it has to have like a couple of stories running.
John: I've never bought since I was in, since I was in my early teens and I started buying clothes for myself, like the, the article of clothing had to resonate.
John: Um, and, and yet Marilyn, um,
John: If you look at pictures of me over the last 35 years, look at pictures of me across that entire time, the percentage of that time that I looked like a dork or like a goober –
John: is so much larger than the rare, rare moments where I actually looked cool.
John: Okay.
John: Yeah.
John: Because, you know... Maybe nobody thought to photograph it when you looked cool.
John: They just wanted to catch the dorks and goobers.
John: Well, it's just like, you know, random occasions.
John: But, you know, like that's a cool sweater.
John: Those are cool pants.
John: But you cut your hair the night before and it looks like a Prince Valiant.
John: Or those are cool glasses, but they would be really cool on an 80s wrapper.
John: They're not cool on you right now.
John: Or, you know, that is a cool sweater, but you loved it so much that you –
John: tried to ignore the fact that it was two inches too short or whatever, or, or I would put just like four elements together that absolutely went together in my mind and absolutely were cool, but not,
John: on stage at that moment in that town.
John: That would be extremely cool if I were Don Corleone and I was dying of DDT in my garden.
John: Not super cool right now at the Irving Plaza.
Merlin: I think of somebody like Tim Gunn on Top Dress, on Project Runway, where Tim Gunn, he can mix up plaids, but he knows what he's doing.
John: Well, and I know what I'm doing.
John: I'm not, you know, like this is a thing that I've been.
John: I'm sorry.
John: I didn't mean to imply you don't know how to play that.
John: I apologize.
John: Yeah, no, it's quite all right.
John: But the problem is in realizing this, I've had this deep reflection where I've been asking myself, what is the point of being a lifelong like aficionado of
John: of clothes and style and, and you know, every time I set out to cut my own hair, I think that this is the time I'm going to do a miraculous job.
John: The re the reason that I've been thinking this is I cut my own hair recently and I did another botch job and it's, but, but I asked myself, what is the point of all those things?
John: If not to look cool,
John: Most of the time.
John: Do you not want to look cool?
John: The thing about Tim Gunn is plaid or plaid or no plaid, his clothes are tailored, but Tim Gunn does not change his hair and beard, right?
John: His hair and face always look the same.
John: He's just changing.
John: He's changing one aspect, which is his clothes.
John: Whereas I change all aspects of,
John: Sometimes every day, from day to day, I mean.
John: Like, hey, today he's a helicopter.
John: It's not just that you're experimenting with materials.
Merlin: It's not just that you're experimenting with materials.
Merlin: You're also building your own tools as you go in some ways.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You're deep inside the process way more than somebody who's doing that kind of like, I don't know, a thing where you lay your clothes on the bed and you put this tie over this shirt and see what it looks like.
Merlin: You're going way deeper than that.
Merlin: And as a consequence, because a lot of factors are changing...
Merlin: You open up this chance that you might be liable to have one or two of those pieces be very cockamamie, especially alongside the others.
Merlin: We're like if you did go double plaid or contrasting plaids and you had the Prince Valiant haircut and maybe like an oversized bow tie or something, that would be something where people go that's a little – that could be perceived as a little clownish.
John: Well, or just like what is happening.
John: Like yesterday you were a research librarian at Yale in the 20s.
John: And then today you're a biplane pilot and like in a barnstorming act –
John: And then the next day you're Mothman and it doesn't, there's no, there's no through line and, and there is no haircut that's going to cover all those bases.
John: And so, and then, you know, and then over the top of it,
John: There's just a, like a, there's a curly stooge wig.
John: And I don't, I, and I'm just asking myself, like, what has been the point of all this?
John: And when I look back, you should be able, like in your case, Merlin, there are some photographs of you in your twenties I've seen where you just look really cool.
John: Now at the time you might not have thought you looked cool, but
John: But looking back at those photos of you in your 20s, it's like now there's a cool kid in his 20s who's doing stuff and looking like a kid in his 20s who is pretty cool.
John: And if you look back at pictures of me in my 20s, and I'm not talking about the ones where I just look super baked and I'm sitting on the kitchen floor eating scabetti.
John: I'm talking about the ones where it's like, this kid's in a band.
Merlin: I'm telling you, man, that Western State Hurricanes performance, I can't get it out of my head.
John: Well, yeah.
John: I mean, this is a cool guy.
John: His band is the coolest band in town right now.
John: And his bangs are an inch and a half above his eyebrows.
John: He's wearing a puka choker.
John: And his shirt is kind of like what?
John: Like falling off because it's two sizes too big?
John: And all of that was – the thing is all of that was intentional.
John: I was thinking that I was communicating something that was –
John: in a way like style posited against what's cool like you know what's cool being against cool but against cool is not cool or it doesn't look cool over time well anyway it's just like you know the peak moments like my my music video for the song fire island
John: which was a music video devoted.
John: I mean, it was the first time we had a budget to make a music video.
John: I flew myself in the band across the country to, to film it in upstate New York.
John: And I challenge you to watch that.
John: All the other guys in the video look cool.
John: My bandmates all look cool.
John: And I, what do I look like?
John: I, I, I look like
John: My hair doesn't even look like I used a Floby.
John: It looks like I used like an HVAC cleaner.
John: I don't understand what I was going for.
John: And so looking at it now, it's like, did I ever tell you about the time we played a show in Vienna and whoever the –
John: The sound and light guy at the show in Vienna.
John: And it was a wonderful show.
John: It was back when we used to play three-hour shows and we covered Stairway to Heaven and all this crazy stuff.
John: And it was like in a Ratzkeller in Vienna.
John: That's so cool.
John: It was great.
John: But they played the Fire Island music video on a loop behind us the entire time.
John: So, so we would be playing and just rocking out and having a great time.
John: And I would turn around and there was this music video that I hated the moment it arrived.
John: And, and I think somebody came up after the show and was like, what was that about?
John: That's not a very good music video.
John: You look a lot better in person.
John: I was like, ah, I don't know.
John: That wasn't our choice.
John: I don't remember why.
John: Usually from the stage, I would say, will you stop doing that?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: I mean, it's one thing to sit at the bar and watch some public domain movie on a loop.
Merlin: But for one thing, it implies that that was kind of your idea, that that was part of your performance.
Merlin: That's our show.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Which is really...
Merlin: I think you don't give yourself enough credit.
Merlin: I mean, you're focusing on what you perceive to be the output of this.
Merlin: And then you kind of reverse engineer this, like, what did I think I was doing?
Merlin: But I honor your process.
Merlin: And I think if you only look at, well, even if every single one of your experiments didn't turn out the way you wanted, I think you still, one still must applaud your commitment to the bit.
Yeah.
Merlin: Not that it's a bit, but your commitment to the cause, which is that I am going to wake up every day and say, what is the uniform of the day?
Merlin: And then I'm going to listen.
Merlin: I'm going to say, shh, listen, listen.
Merlin: And there will be a little voice somewhere that says, Prince Valiant in bow tie.
Merlin: Or who?
Merlin: I don't know if they talk like that, but I would listen.
Merlin: That's very intimidating.
John: Well, it's true.
John: And here's the thing.
John: There's a chance...
John: That 25 years from now – because who could have predicted that normcore would ever have been a thing?
John: But normcore – because normcore is young people just dressing in the worst possible clothes that in their time, we would not have –
John: Like people are, people have been posting pictures of themselves lately.
John: I've noticed like millenniums, uh, late millenniums have been posting pictures of themselves in like hot topic clothes, super big pants and nose rings and, uh, like their hair too short and clip with a bunch of barrettes in them.
John: And, and looking at, looking at those pictures, you know, I remember when everybody was a raver and, uh,
John: And then to post those pictures and be like, Oh, you know, I'm a grownup now.
John: And remember the, remember this hilarious and great time.
John: I look at those even and think like, well, at least you were a member of a society.
John: Like you might have been listening to limp biscuit or worse, but you had a, you know, you were part of a time.
John: I'm wondering whether 25 years from now,
John: When everybody else is wearing – I mean when all the kids are wearing glasses, like vintage glasses that were handed out by the California Department of Prisons –
John: And it's cool.
John: And they're like glasses.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: And they're like, oh man, this is the look, you know, we all have bowl haircuts and, and we're wearing prison glasses.
John: And I, and I'm an old man at that point.
John: And I'm like, look at this picture of me.
John: This is nine, you know, 1994.
John: I was dressed like a, like a, uh, like the guy in prison that works in the laundry.
John: Mr. Guy.
Yeah.
John: I was Mr. Guy a long time.
John: And they're like, wow, you're the only one.
John: You were the only one from your time that was like that far, you know, looking that far into the future.
Merlin: And maybe that was it.
Merlin: The question is, how do you feel about it?
Merlin: We're talking around a lot of this, but I'm trying to isolate the part of this that is kind of on your nerve today.
Merlin: So is it that you feel like you haven't – do you feel like you haven't succeeded in your various experiments?
Merlin: Do you feel like you only get documented for the bad ones?
Merlin: What is at the heart of your concern or upset about this?
Merlin: Because you seem to enjoy the process.
Merlin: And if you enjoy the process, you know, you got to know that sometimes the product is not going to be exactly right.
Merlin: But you do it because of the process, not because of the product.
Merlin: You could just go to the gap and say, you know, give me clothes that fit.
Merlin: but that's not really the same thing as choosing a uniform of the day and cutting your own hair so that it accommodates your CPAP.
Merlin: That's why Hitler originally had the mustache, was so that he could wear a gas mask.
Merlin: Did you know that?
John: Oh, interesting.
John: Right, of course.
John: That makes perfect sense.
Merlin: Anyway, can you trace it to any specificity of what you wish you had or would do differently?
John: Well, so if you think about...
John: the new pornographers and the mountain goats.
John: Now, both of those bands have great songwriters at the helm.
John: They have tremendous sort of individuality of perspective, uh, both, you know, like great unique sound, uh,
John: And neither one of them has a front man that you look at and think, wow, cool.
John: Right.
John: Now, if you look at Spoon and The National, those bands both have very unique sounds, very, very, like, incredible music, great songwriters in The National.
John: But their front men are super cool looking.
John: Like, as we know,
John: the front man of spoon never did not look cool.
John: Yeah.
John: Right.
John: And, and he also, he also acts cool.
Merlin: I watched him doing a solo acoustic version of advanced cassette, which might be my favorite, but it's up there.
Merlin: It's one of the first spoon songs I loved doing an acoustic cover that, and just the way he plays guitar, the way he holds himself.
Merlin: He's a very, he's a very cool guy.
John: He's a thin guy.
John: He's a very cool dresser, but he's one of those guys that when he comes into a club, even if he's not playing, the light goes and shines on him.
Merlin: And you're wondering, what is he smiling about?
Merlin: What's he smiling about now?
Merlin: I can't tell what he's smiling about.
John: And the thing is, he looks like he's only there for a little while, you know?
John: He's not a guy that comes to your show and settles in and is there closing down the bar at 2 a.m.
Merlin: Oh, he's not going to go claim a banquette and hold court all night.
John: He's in and out.
John: I get it.
John: He shows up two songs into your set.
John: He leans against the pole in the back.
John: And then at the end of the show, you look for him and he's gone.
John: And the guy from the National, Lord knows what that whole scene is about.
John: You know, that's one of those bands where I'm like, I don't get it.
John: And everybody around me is like super into them.
John: Yeah.
John: But I've stood next to that guy several times, including at a wedding.
John: And you go, well, if there's one thing he's got, it is –
John: That he's extremely cool.
John: This guy is very cool.
John: He would be cool if he wasn't in a band.
John: He'd be cool if you were on a bus.
John: You'd be like, huh, well, that guy's cool.
John: That guy's cool.
John: He probably doesn't have a CPAP.
John: He for sure doesn't have a CPAP.
John: He probably stubs out his...
John: his last cigarette of the day in a bowl of, of like, uh, black beauties, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know how these people live, but you just keep a bowl of them right there.
John: Huh?
John: Yeah, that's right.
John: Just like, but if you look at my career, every single photo and publicity picture where I look like, uh,
John: Like somebody that you took all of the style of the 20th century and put it into a food processor and then came out the other side and then thought, huh, maybe I'll shave half my face today because it's like photo day.
John: And you think, okay, now somehow the fact that the front man of the new pornographers and the mountain goats did not inhibit them
John: Because the front men were not what you would call handsome or presented themselves as handsome.
John: But it didn't affect them because their songwriting was so good.
John: But in my case, I feel like the band would have done better if I had been a little cooler looking.
Hmm.
John: Like if I had had one look, if I had just gotten that look, you know, my coolest look is when my hair was a little longer and shaggier and my beard was sort of in managed fashion.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: That's a good later look.
Merlin: I think your general kind of Blue Diamonds John Lennon look was a very strong look too.
Yeah.
John: See, that was a great look, but that's it.
John: The hair was a little medium length.
John: It had a little mustache, but the tickling of a beard, young, blonde beard.
John: If I just left it like that, if I had just gone to somebody once every two months and said, whatever it costs to keep this look.
John: Like every other man in the world, let's just leave it at this.
John: I found the thing.
John: It works.
John: Let's just leave it at this.
John: Now, you're somebody who lets his hair go and then you cut it and then you let it go and you cut it.
John: So over the course of six to nine months, you're either like –
John: crazy hair Merlin or your less crazy hair Merlin?
Merlin: That's been an interesting kink given the pandemic times because there was a period that I'm sure you've seen, well, because it covered a very long time, which is my hair was growing, growing, growing, which was definitely up through, I want to say 2018, 19.
Merlin: And then I finally went to my operator and I got a haircut.
Merlin: Long story short, boy, I have really adapted to the number two all over lifestyle.
Merlin: It's really – I would normally do that.
Merlin: But, like, for example, right now, John, I'm just growing out my number two all over.
Merlin: Not growing out, but, like, I'm due.
Merlin: But, you know, if you look at me right now, you just go, oh, like, he's a kid who's seen one TV special about punk rock.
Merlin: You know?
Merlin: I've got sort of that, like, hasty sting look.
Merlin: Like, I don't have time for a full sting.
Merlin: Give me a hasty sting.
Merlin: Hasty sting.
Merlin: But already I'm doing this.
Merlin: Because it feels long now, even though it's not long.
Merlin: But I don't know.
Merlin: This is going to be one of those enduring things for me, not to take us off topic.
Merlin: But I think I could find it very enduring to just say to my lady friend, some given Saturday night, can we do my hair?
Merlin: And then 15 minutes later, I have a haircut that's good for...
Merlin: Two months.
Merlin: It's really freeing.
Merlin: It's not as cool as you cutting your hair, but with the scissors and stuff.
Merlin: But like she does a good job.
Merlin: My daughter gets to help out and she does a good job.
Merlin: But like I it's not it's not a money thing.
Merlin: It's it's just more that like I don't need another thing to feel shitty about.
Merlin: And like me realizing I'm two months late on getting a haircut makes me feel shitty.
Merlin: And I like the idea of like, hey, let's just dip.
Merlin: And like basically over a commercial break, you could give me a haircut that will endure.
Merlin: And I think that's going to be a thing I stick with.
Merlin: But yes, I have let it go.
Merlin: And like, you know, I like to think of it, you know, you get like what I call the Andy Griffith haircut.
Merlin: I think we've talked about this, which you go and get the haircut where you're getting it two or three times a week because you get nothing better to do in Mayberry.
Yeah.
Merlin: You could go to Mount Pilot and pay a little more.
Merlin: But then you walk out with a haircut that looks great.
Merlin: Now, that kind of haircut, as you know, does not age well.
Merlin: The haircut that looks good when you leave is not always the best haircut like two weeks later.
Merlin: Do you know what I mean?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: And with this, it just always looks the same.
Merlin: It's like getting a quarter pounder with cheese.
Merlin: Like there is a floor to that and there definitely is a ceiling to that.
Merlin: But like it's just food and you know what it is and you go on your way.
John: I am right in saying that for – what?
John: What was it?
John: Eight years?
John: Like your hair going crazy was a whole flicker bit, right?
John: It was a bit.
John: Wasn't it a – It was a bit.
John: Merlin's hair journey I think is what you're thinking of, yeah.
John: Merlin's hair journey.
John: Right.
John: And that was always fun.
John: But your hair is the kind of hair that no matter what it's doing, it looks –
John: like a cool and maybe crazy person's hair.
John: Okay.
John: All right.
John: Yep, yep, yep.
John: And so it was a great bit because your whole take on it was, this hair looks terrible.
John: And everybody else's take on it was, that hair looks great.
John: Right?
John: Like every comment in Merlin's crazy hair journey was,
John: your hair looks amazing.
John: I don't know what you're talking about.
John: And you, and your thing was like, I look like a dumb ass.
John: Yeah.
John: My thing has always been like, I look cool and you just don't get it.
John: And then now I'm thinking maybe this whole time I haven't been cool at all.
John: Maybe, maybe,
John: Maybe I'm like – maybe that whole like I look cool and you don't get it is a super weird attitude to take because what it really is is I look cool and nobody gets it.
John: I look cool and nobody gets it.
John: Including you?
John: What is looking cool if nobody gets it?
John: Oh, okay.
John: If you look cool and only some people get it, only some cool people get it.
Merlin: Really the question becomes you look cool to whom?
John: To whom?
John: And the answer has been this entire time, to no one.
John: Because when I've looked at myself in the mirror, I go, eh.
John: Like, I have the same cool dysmorphia that you have.
John: You look cool to me.
John: But when you look in the mirror, you're like, ah, I look stupid.
Merlin: Because we have a self-image of, like, on the one hand, I think we all have a self-image of what we'd like to look like.
Merlin: And, like, I – maybe this is some form of, like, very –
Merlin: very tiny bit of ptsd but i i my hair is very fine and that only matters because the haircuts of our youth were not about fine hair our the haircuts of our youth were about being able to do like a sean cassidy feathered thing or being able to do like a vinnie barberino long thing but like to have fun curly thick hair which by the way people who have the
Merlin: thick curly hair often hate it because we always want the thing that we don't have that's what we learn from silence of the lambs we crave the thing that we that we don't have you know or as more as he said he wants the one he can't have and it's driving him mad it's driving him mad it's driving him mad and so i look at somebody and i go like my my ex rachel she had the most amazing hair she had like a thicket of jewish curls she had a name but like she had to really deal with it
Merlin: You couldn't get your hand out of that hair.
Merlin: It was crazy hair.
Merlin: She did a lot with it, but she kind of hated it.
Merlin: And I was like, I don't know, man.
Merlin: I think I'd really like it.
Merlin: In the 70s, people would iron their hair to look like Jan Brady.
John: They would iron their hair.
John: They would iron their hair.
John: Isn't that crazy?
John: I had a guy in college.
John: Who was like – and this is in college when I should have been like really peak, peak cool.
John: Peak Mr. Guy.
John: Peak Mr. Guy.
John: And at the time, I parted my – I had long hair and I parted it in the middle, which is not where my hair parts.
John: And I think –
John: What was happening then?
John: I don't ever think I used a blow dryer.
John: This would be the late 80s, early 90s?
John: Yeah, late 80s, not early 90s.
John: Gonzaga years?
John: Yeah, like mid to late 80s.
John: Okay, okay.
John: But, you know, I wore like...
John: Wool pants, like wool German army pants that I got from an army navy surplus store.
John: And a leather motorcycle jacket.
John: And then a blue Oxford cloth shirt with a reptile.
John: It sounds cool, but it's not.
John: It sounds cool right now as I'm describing it.
John: Because that was the concept.
John: I had a concept.
John: Okay.
John: But then I had some glasses that I remember I went to an optometrist one time.
John: And this was in the late 80s when all glasses looked a certain way.
John: And I was sitting at the optometrist, and the optometrist had a display case of glasses from the 50s or something that he was like, look at these old things.
John: And I was sitting there, and I was like, can I buy those?
John: And he was like, I guess.
John: And I said, how much for that pair?
John: And he said, oh, I don't know, $10?
John: What?
John: Because he was selling these $200, $250 glasses.
John: I get it.
John: And he was like, these?
John: These aren't worth anything.
John: And so I thought I had hacked the world, which I had.
John: And I was like, I'll take them all, you know, and then I had all these, but they're not, but they were nuts.
John: You know, they were octagonal and all these things.
John: He put them in this case for a reason, which was nobody wants these anymore and nobody wanted them there.
John: To keep them from infecting the other glasses.
John: Yeah, right.
John: Like this is, this is supposed to be a case of whimsy and you are putting these together with army pants and
John: Right.
Merlin: It's one thing to wear like John Fluvog shoes and it's another thing to wear like full-on clown shoes.
John: Clown shoes.
John: That takes commitment.
John: See, but even that stuff, there was always a –
John: burlesque element that was happening of people wearing kooky stuff, but they were like burlesque.
John: They were into, they had nipple clamps or something, but I was, but I was over here like, Oh no, this is, you know, like I'm going skiing, but I'm going skiing before the wars.
Merlin: Oh, oh boy.
Merlin: I see.
Merlin: I see.
Merlin: It's a little bit of a Doctor Who type situation.
Merlin: Oh, you do dress a little bit like you.
Merlin: You could be a doctor if you had one main look, especially like an 80s doctor.
Merlin: Like you, you could, you could pull.
Merlin: I was watching Apocalypse Now the other night.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And I was just thinking, God damn, man, Harrison Ford, that guy really had a run.
Merlin: And I'm watching the wonderful scene in the trailer where they're giving him the shrimp and he's not doing well.
Merlin: And I was just saying, man, check out fucking Harrison Ford.
Merlin: Because I love that.
John: He's just standing in the background.
Merlin: He's standing in the background.
Merlin: And you got the one guy, oh, talk about bangs.
Merlin: Dude, what about the extreme prejudice guy?
Merlin: That guy has crazy short bangs.
John: Yes.
Merlin: And penetrating eyes.
Merlin: But yeah, I'm just saying like Harrison Ford's glasses are so boss.
Merlin: And then I realized I like the whole package.
Merlin: I also like I like his his fatigues with the giant pockets like you got in the 60s.
Merlin: Maybe you should pick.
Merlin: Well, no, I was gonna say you should pick somebody as sort of a model and lean into that.
Merlin: But then you're just doing cosplay, I suppose.
John: Well, and also, I mean, you've got your George Clooney's and your Harrison Ford's.
John: George Clooney came out the other day saying he uses a Flobie.
John: He says a lot of things.
John: I don't know about that.
John: But the thing is, those guys are just handsome.
John: You know, like those guys, sure, Harrison Ford could wear every outfit I've worn for the last 30 years, and people would be like, I wonder what's going on with him.
John: But they wouldn't say, that guy looks like a dork.
John: They would say, yeah.
John: That guy looks like fucking George Clooney.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah, he looks like George Clooney, except like a character in Blade Runner.
John: And maybe the whole time I've been thinking, I'm one of the people in the street scenes in Blade Runner.
John: Oh, I get it.
John: You know, he's wearing like a Devo helmet, but some Run DMC glasses.
John: Make your eyes.
John: And he's got a jacket made out of tennis rackets.
Yeah.
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Merlin: I always think, yeah, yeah, I mean, if there's anybody in that movie that I feel, what's his name?
Merlin: You know, E.B.
Merlin: Farnham.
John: That's right.
Merlin: Home Again, Jiggity Jig.
Merlin: What's his name?
Merlin: He has letters.
John: Oh, JB.
John: Welcome home, JB.
Merlin: Puffin stuff.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: JB Puffin stuff.
Merlin: Now, he's got a cool, he's wearing a helmet like a Fred Flintstone character would wear, where it turns out it's actually a turtle.
Merlin: The turtle goes, it's a living.
Merlin: But he's also made all those friends.
Merlin: And Daryl Hannah obviously likes what he's cooking up.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
John: Sure.
John: Sure.
John: Make your eyes.
John: He's got a jacket made out of one of those collapsible tubes that little kids like to play with.
John: It's like a slinky, except it's got fabric around it.
John: Yes.
John: But the problem was that I was dressed like that, but I was at the Crocodile Cafe and everybody else was in REM.
What?
John: So anyway, the long and the short of it is that I have a kind of dysmorphia where when I look at myself, I'm like, but I believe that I am cool.
John: Like there's another voice in my head that's like, don't worry about it.
John: Like you look dumb, but don't worry about it because it's super cool actually.
John: And then I go out in the world and people are like, what's the deal?
John: What's the deal with the guy that's wearing like three sleeping bags?
John: And the other person says, he's in a band.
John: And they go, huh, okay.
John: What does the band sound like?
John: Does it sound like early talking heads through Kraftwerk?
John: And the answer is, no, it's just an indie pop band.
John: It's like strummy guitars.
Merlin: Oh, like if you were doing a Highlights magazine, and on this side, you got John Darnielle, you got Carl Newman, you got John Rodden, and then you have to draw the line across to what kind of band that they're in.
Merlin: So this question then becomes, I think it would be assumed that you're either in a German band or something that the Elfman brothers aren't doing anymore.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: You could be in like, you could be in like, you would be the Pete best of Boingo Boingo.
Merlin: Like you weren't there for the nothing bad ever happens to me era.
Merlin: You were in a much earlier time, maybe a forbidden zone era and you played or, or like, you know what?
Merlin: Oh shit.
Merlin: Dog split ends, early split ends, old split ends where they dress like marionettes.
John: Exactly, although the guys in split ends were not unattractive.
John: Really fucking cool.
Merlin: Neil was cool early on.
Merlin: They're short.
Merlin: Those guys are short.
Merlin: Are they short?
John: Is that a New Zealand thing, if you know?
John: I think they're short.
John: Yeah, they live on plantains.
John: But the thing is that if Missy Elliott, if her music sounded like Destiny's Child, you would go, what?
John: She's wearing garbage bags.
John: But she's singing about pay my bills, pay my automobiles.
John: It's not going to connect.
Merlin: No one will flip it, let alone reverse it.
John: Missy Elliott sounds like Missy Elliott, and she looks like Missy Elliott.
John: She sure does.
John: That's the problem.
John: That's interesting.
John: Miles Davis looks like Miles Davis.
John: I don't look like how I sound.
John: Miles Davis looks like he sounds like Miles Davis.
John: Oh, here's Colin Malloy.
John: Colin Malloy looks like he sounds like Colin Malloy.
John: And depending, you know, sometimes he was wearing a, sometimes he's wearing a circus tent.
John: I think he looks like the guy who hooks up the cable TV for Colin Malloy.
John: A little bit.
John: No, no, no.
John: He's always got, that was good.
John: That was good.
John: I apologize.
John: Yeah.
John: It's all right.
John: I think that the Decemberists look like they sound like the Decemberists.
Merlin: Yeah, the nice girl that I like.
Merlin: What's your name?
Merlin: Not Jenny?
Merlin: What's her name?
Merlin: Really the nice lady?
Merlin: You got Chris.
Merlin: I bonded with Chris a little bit at the merch table one night.
John: He's delightful.
John: He's good.
John: When I first – oh, this is interesting.
John: When I first met Chris, the first time we played with the Decembrists, it was in a –
John: Club that is called the Blackbird in Portland.
John: And it probably had a capacity.
John: If you counted the people who were actually standing on the stage with you, it had a capacity of fewer than 100 people.
John: Intimate.
John: And Chris was brand new in the Decembrists at the time.
John: And he dressed hip hop.
John: What?
John: He dressed hip hop because he was coming out.
John: I think of him as a hat guy, not a hip hop guy.
John: He was.
John: He was.
John: But the hat he was wearing was like a baseball hat on sideways that said something like baseball.
John: it said Stussy on it.
John: I don't remember what it was.
John: He looked like, but it said Stussy in rhinestones.
John: Like he was hip hop.
Merlin: Sounds like what they call it.
Merlin: They call it a shav?
Merlin: Or they call it like an asmo?
John: Yeah, he looked like a little bit of a shav.
John: And there was an incongruity to him as part of their look.
John: And weirdly... He wasn't really a pirate at all.
John: No.
John: And throughout our now, what, 20 years we've known each other, the Decembrists and I, I have always somewhat suspected that
John: Or waiting for Chris Funk to put down his mandolin, step forward, and all of a sudden they wheel out two turntables.
John: And he's like.
John: Yeah.
John: But the rest of them, I was standing at the cafe.
John: Not the cafe.
John: I was standing at the Paradiso in Amsterdam one time.
John: And a very pretty Dutch girl who's a little drunk came up to me and said, I know who you are.
John: And it was at a show that was – it was an American band, some big band.
John: And we were playing – I was in Amsterdam because we were playing the night before, the night after.
John: And I said, I don't think you do know who I am.
John: And she said, I know exactly who you are.
John: And I'm a big fan.
John: And I was like, I suspect that you think I'm someone else.
John: Because typically in the Netherlands, our fans look like they work in Den Haag as like prosecutors for the European court.
John: They do not look like you, like super cute Dutch girl who is at an indie rock show.
John: Sure.
John: Now she never said who she thought I was because we played it.
John: I have a feeling she's run this scam before.
John: We were playing a game and it was the, it was the, I'm, I'm going to walk up to you and speak English is the first game.
John: So I know that you're not, I can tell you're not Dutch.
John: You're an American and you're in a band and I know who you are.
John: Okay.
John: But what, when I caught my reflection in the mirror and
John: I thought, Oh, she thinks I'm Colin Malloy.
John: Now I'm a, I am not Colin Malloy.
John: I'm a foot taller than Colin Malloy.
John: And also I was wearing a medieval armor at the time, but I did look like in that moment, Colin Malloy, because that was the era where Colin and Ben Gibbard and all those guys were trying to look like me when I was cool.
Uh,
John: But I was so seldom cool.
John: But I would hit – there were just some moments where it was just like, oh, that's the look now?
John: That doesn't seem fair at all.
John: Well, it's not because they took those looks.
John: Because you plowed that field.
John: You should get to collect the fruits.
John: Yeah, but then they were that look all the time.
John: And so then it becomes the Colin Malloy look.
John: And it's like, no, that's not the Colin Malloy look.
John: But she thought I was Colin Malloy.
John: And I felt like, oh, sure.
John: Those are Decembrists fans everywhere you go in the world.
Merlin: Just to be clear, you were opening for them on this tour.
John: No, we never opened for them in Europe.
John: Oh, then that's very strange.
John: Well, yeah, that's the thing.
John: There was a time when – if you looked at the bill for the month at the Paradiso in Amsterdam, it was like ban from Portland, ban from Seattle, ban from Portland, ban from Brooklyn, ban from – and it was just like –
John: there were so many indie rock bands.
John: It was, it was a time when it was very popular in Europe, that sound.
John: Hmm.
John: And, uh, it was as, as, uh, John Flansburg called it, uh, treble kicking indie rock.
Hmm.
John: Which is a sound that you like.
John: You like it also.
Merlin: Oh, absolutely.
Merlin: 100%.
Merlin: I found a – somebody – well, actually, this is a propos of nothing, but I do want to share this with you.
Merlin: I was going on about something having to do with southern jangle rock, and somebody sent this amazing compilation of the most jangly jangle rock bands from the mid-'80s you've ever heard.
Merlin: It's so jangly.
Merlin: It's almost too much jangle.
Merlin: Too jangly.
Merlin: It's almost like, well, what's on?
Merlin: Pretty persuasion.
Merlin: Like, imagine the pretty persuasion-ish.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: So jangly.
Merlin: To answer your question, yes.
John: I love treble kicking indie rock?
John: Indie rock.
John: Treble kicking indie rock.
John: Love it.
John: You know, REM claimed they'd never heard of the Beatles.
Merlin: Well, okay.
Merlin: Huh, that's interesting.
Merlin: So they never would have gotten thrown out of the Sex Pistols.
Merlin: Good for them?
Merlin: No, for sure.
John: Well, then they wouldn't have had you to come back.
John: He got a raw deal.
John: I, boy, did he ever.
John: They treated him terribly.
Merlin: We were watching Manc.
Merlin: This is a very long walk off a short golf course.
Merlin: But the other night, we were watching Manc.
Merlin: And I said to my kid, you recognize that guy?
Merlin: And she said, no.
Merlin: I said, that's Snape from Harry Potter.
Merlin: And then they all said, no, that's not Snape.
Merlin: Snape is played by somebody else.
Merlin: That's played by Alan.
Merlin: She said, that's Alan Rickman.
Merlin: And I said, no, sorry, the other guy.
Merlin: Not Severus.
Merlin: Whatever the fuck.
Merlin: Is it the wolf?
Merlin: Not the wolf man?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And so I'm going around.
Merlin: I'm like, you know, the one guy, you know, the guy from, you know, Bellatrix Lestrange's.
Merlin: And so then I got to pop up lots of screens from things, including I pop up the trailer for Sid and Nancy.
John: Oh, yes.
John: You know?
John: And there he is.
Merlin: And also in Mank, he has very similar hair in Mank to the hair that he has in The Fifth Element, which I think is fun.
John: So we put on Mank because everybody was talking about it on Twitter.
John: My sister was here.
John: And my sister has very different tastes than I do.
John: And Mank came up and the first thing she said was, is this movie in black and white?
John: And then there was a title card that said something about the screenwriting.
John: Netflix International Pictures, shot in high definition.
John: Screenwriting for the movie, the Orson Welles movie about the Hearst guy.
John: Yeah.
John: And she was like, I can't watch this.
John: And I said, well, everybody's talking about it on Twitter.
John: And she was like, no, no, no, no, no.
John: This is one of these movies that you and your friends like where you don't laugh.
John: You just chuckle at references.
John: You chuckle and you say that was humorous.
John: You say that was humorous.
John: Oh, that was droll.
John: And she was like, I do not like droll.
John: And I want a movie that is fun.
John: And so I actually had to turn it off because...
John: Uh, because I was getting so much pushback.
John: Okay.
John: She was like, I know, I know, I know who your friends are and what they, what they talk about on Twitter.
John: And it isn't going to be make tonight for us.
John: Um, and so then I forced her to watch goodbye girl.
Merlin: And she was like, she was like, this is just Richard Dreyfuss, Marsha Mason.
John: Yeah.
John: Never.
John: She was like, this is just divorce porn from the seventies.
John: And I was like, yeah, well that's what you get.
John: If you don't want to watch, you don't, you know, what you get is Fleetwood Mac, but a movie.
John: You don't get upset.
John: You don't get upset.
Merlin: I'm not sure why I brought all that up except to say something about Mank.
Merlin: Oh, punk rock.
Merlin: Glenn Matlock.
Merlin: Glenn Matlock.
Merlin: And then I showed him the Bill Grundy interview, which is, I believe, when Glenn was still in the band.
Merlin: And I'm not sure I totally believe he got thrown out for liking the Beatles, but that's the kind of thing that an idiot like Johnny Rotten would say.
John: Yeah, they were idiots.
John: No, he got thrown out because he wanted to wake up in the morning.
John: I'd like to live, John.
John: Yeah, I mean, that's just, that's just the not, yeah, that's not, that's not that great.
John: The problem with the long winters, and I remember this from the time.
John: Did I take you off Dutch?
Merlin: You were on Dutch and the cute girl who thought, did you ever, were you able to verify that indeed that Colin Malloy is who she thought you were?
Merlin: Or is that just your hunch?
Merlin: No, no, no.
John: Okay.
John: That was just my hunch because at that moment I looked at the column alloy.
John: But most of the time I didn't.
John: Most of the time the long winters looked like
John: Like a Rush cover band that never, ever played a show.
John: Fronted by... Yeah, fronted by J.P.
John: from Blade Runner.
Merlin: Oh, yeah, right.
Merlin: J.R.
Merlin: Sebastian, was that it?
Merlin: J.R.
Merlin: Sebastian.
Merlin: That would be so cute.
Merlin: And they call themselves Hemispheres.
John: Yeah, exactly.
John: Except J.R.
John: Sebastian had, uh, had the personality of Penn from Penn and Teller.
John: Like the band had no cohesion of theme.
John: That sounds awful.
John: I've got to be honest with you, it doesn't sound good.
John: No, it sounds terrible.
Merlin: But you get on stage and that's immediately what everybody's thinking.
Merlin: Everybody's thinking, this looks like the robot guy from Blade Runner, but he's like that tall libertarian.
John: Exactly.
John: And what we should have looked like is Dexy's Midnight Runner.
John: Oh, there's still time.
John: There's still time.
John: No, if we had all gotten on stage and it was like, oh, and this is the guy with the beret and he's wearing a dirty white T-shirt and they all have overalls on.
John: And there's so many accordions.
John: That would have made perfect sense for our set.
Merlin: For what it's worth, I would be in that band and I would play a girl.
Merlin: I would be happy to cosplay a girl from Dex.
Merlin: I watched a performance of Ted Leo doing Come On Eileen and everybody was in a costume and doing a thing.
Merlin: It was fun.
Merlin: I think you could really, I mean, so you're resistant to that?
Merlin: You don't want to go full rolling?
John: Well, I can't.
John: I could.
John: That's the thing.
John: I could for one day.
John: I've had many days where I walked out of the house looking like Dexie's Midnight Runners, but then I went to band practice, and everybody else in the band looked like they work at GameStop.
John: Oh, God.
Merlin: Poor old Johnny Ray.
Merlin: Poor old.