Ep. 501: "The Doors of Jazz"
Hello.
Hi, John.
How are you?
I'm Merlin.
How's it going?
Merlin.
It's good.
It's good.
Yeah, we missed last week because you were at the Apple event.
Oh, sorry.
Last week was kind of, yeah, I was recording live from the show floor.
Yeah.
How was Tim Cook?
Did you say hi for me?
Oh, I did.
I did.
I had a very long... You were second or third on the list, but yeah, I did kind of buttonhole him into an alcove, and I had a lot of notes for him.
An apps, as the New York Times crossword bezel would say.
An apps.
I talked to him about how the Wi-Fi, you know, troubleshooter doesn't troubleshoot anything.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Oh, so true.
Started laughing hysterically.
I was dragged away by security and I could just hear him in the distance.
We can't wait to see what you do with this.
Hey, yeah.
Do you have the goggles yet?
Have you got the Apple goggles?
No, I don't have them yet.
Oh, they're like $8,000, right?
So you can watch porn and talk to people on the bus?
Well, what was the price you said?
I don't know.
$80 something.
$80?
$80 what?
$8,000.
Do you know what this technology, you know what it cost for Elvis to have a Betamax that he could take from hotel to hotel?
It was the size of a car.
It was like a Honda Civic, right?
Well, like, you know, John Lennon had a Rolls Royce with a turntable in it.
Yeah.
You know, what's privilege if you don't use it is what I always say.
Sure, sure, sure.
Yeah, no, it's a very, it's a crazy interesting technology.
You know, I'm an old guy, so I'm mostly interested in the, you know, kind of more mundane stuff.
Oh, sure.
But I'm excited for people who are excited.
Do people seem excited?
You know, I'm very, you're so lucky.
You have all your help.
You're really lucky.
You're so lucky.
You know, it's like shoes and clothes fit you off the rack, don't they?
You know, you're size medium, and you just get the medium, and it's every time.
That is a deeply, deeply ableist guess.
No.
No.
And I don't want to get into it.
It's too personal.
But, you know, the thing is, Envision Quest, or whatever it's called, there's a name for it.
It's Reality Pro, or something, or...
Pros and cons of hitchhiking, something like that?
Reality pro.
Trademark.
TM, TM, TM.
Yeah, so you put them on, and it looks really cool.
I'm not going to make fun of it.
No, no, no.
The thing I'm happy about is that you have all your Apple.
Oh, yeah.
Tell me why I'm lucky, John.
Well, you guys are lucky you get to Apple.
together and you and everybody that listens knows what you're talking about and they're like they're appling with you and yeah it just it just feels like a big club like a big warm hug hug fest no it's a it's a community no you you know what that's a goddamn shame you used to be john roderick well see and it's nice to turn things down
It is, and I can't get the Wi-Fi to work half the time.
And when you ask it to troubleshoot it, it doesn't work.
But nobody laughs at my Apple jokes.
So the goggles came up, and I knew you guys were all over in your club, and you were so excited.
All clothes fit me.
Everyone's my friend.
Merlin's got it all figured out.
He's so dang lucky.
And I was sitting over here.
I had so many questions about him.
You weren't even invited to the goggles.
I was like, does it have like a...
can you like look at wikipedia on them and stuff you know i had all that kind of question like real technical stuff like yeah can you can you look at wikipedia can you google things from them you know can you search wikipedia can you search wikipedia from them yeah can you remember that you search for something or you can can you search for you can you search for it on wikipedia again can you can you order pants
Yeah.
Can you follow links for links?
And you know, nobody was talking about it.
They were all excited about other things and, and, and, you know, and I raised my hand, but I didn't get called on.
Yeah.
You didn't watch it, did you?
Oh, no, no.
Okay.
No, but I heard about it.
Believe me, that's plenty enough.
I'll tell you what's one of the things that is most interesting about it.
You didn't ask, really.
I know you're having fun with me.
But the thing in a nut for me is this is different in a lot of ways than what people have done up till now in a number of ways.
And I think it's doing something that drives people crazy about...
a new kind of consumer technology, but I think is really smart.
And the way I phrased it with some other people I was visiting with.
With your Apple friends.
My community on the show floor and my ill-fitting pants.
Oh, my God, the rise in these things.
If I wore pants where they're supposed to be, I would look like Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs.
My waistline would be just below my nip's.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're made for people with a long rise.
They're not made for short rise.
I know there's words we're not supposed to use anymore, John, that I'm not ready to get rid of quite yet.
Can you just point me to the section for the fat boys?
Husky.
You want husky clothes.
Sears would call me husky.
Yeah.
And, like, I'm not afraid to admit it.
I need chode jeans.
I need, like, joke pants with a comically short rise.
And I can't get into it.
But anyway, the thing I said, based on people who have used it and talked about it, blah, blah, blah.
So what I was going to say, though, is in a night, we talk about this in the community all the time.
Sure, sure.
You know, who is it?
Was it Richard Feynman?
Probably Carl Sagan who said, before you can bake a cake, you must invent the universe.
Yeah.
I think before you can do all the stuff that you, quote, unquote, can already do on my computer, you have to learn how to watch TV.
Okay.
Now, for a lot of us, our first experiences on a computer might have been through a TV set, you know, with the way that it was hooked up.
I'm just saying, like, if you can never figure out how to hook up your computer and watch it on the TV, you're never going to be doing Pearl programming.
And what I'm trying to say here is people who go, I wouldn't pay that kind of money to watch a movie on a United flight.
They say it.
They go, pfft.
They make that noise.
Oh, that's a hell of a noise.
I don't know if I've ever made that noise in my life.
Well, what I lack in a correctly-sized rise, I more than make up foreign raspberries.
Okay, so those people, the raspberries, let's call them.
It's a whole group of people.
See, here's the thing, John, and this is the point I finally arrived at that I loathe, but I have to learn how to live with, which is I...
I think I understand what most people are saying most of the time.
And I think I kind of agree with everything almost everybody says all the time because everybody has their reasons.
Sure.
And I understand why people are terrified about AI.
I understand why people don't want ski goggles for the United Flight, which is a terrific Guided by Voices EP.
But no, but I think rather than jumping straight into the whole, like, this is the error.
God, this is going on longer than I wanted.
The error that was made by...
Mr. Zuckerberg and friends, one of the things was they tried to go straight into what they perceived as the practical application of this.
And I don't want to be unkind about it, but the demos are funny and well-known for a reason, because it's people with no legs that look like anime characters sitting in a meeting.
And the way I said it to Dan was, it's like everything about your job is still difficult, but now we've added a helmet.
You haven't changed anything about what actually makes work, excuse me, what actually makes things like work and meetings challenging.
You've just added material and now you don't have legs in it.
If you really had helmets, though, it would at least be safer.
For head wounds and stuff.
Yeah, if Zuckerberg had actually made Buck Rogers helmets.
Especially if you were working with Amy Klobuchar and she threw a binder at you, it would be nice to have some headgear.
Amy Klobuchar.
Yeah.
Is that her name?
I think it's her name.
I don't know who you're talking about.
Salad comb.
Salad comb?
She ate a salad with a comb one time.
People talked about it.
Wow.
Yeah.
There's so much about the world I don't know.
We don't get to pick what we're famous for, John.
No, no.
Woo!
Sing it, sister.
Woo!
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Boy, oh boy.
But what's exciting, I'm going to tell you the one last thing about this that I think is really cool.
And this is a friend of the show, Marco Arment, talked about this.
I mean, obviously, I haven't had it on at the time I heard him talking about it.
He hadn't had the thing on.
But he said something I think is really smart and is, I think, adjacent to the point I'm trying to make, which is like, until you can make this thing not feel stupid and foreign, you're not going to want to do anything on it.
And he's curious about this.
I'm curious about this.
And lots of people have talked about this.
When you put the thing on, on the one hand, it doesn't feel like the first thing it does is it's got like 12 cameras or something.
So you can see everything around you.
But, like, that sounds like table stakes, right?
But if it didn't look like the room that you're in, wouldn't you instantly be sort of like, ugh, I don't know, man.
I don't know if I want to slather anything on top of this if I can't even get my living room right.
Even if it did look like the room I'm in, I'd be like, ugh.
But then you can change it.
Could you improve this a little bit?
Yes.
And for example, a friend of the show, Matt Webb, on his wonderful web blog or blog, Interconnected, talked about how there's, you know, when you put things somewhere, it stays there, like physical things.
Like if you want a painting on your wall, it stays there.
And when you go home, when you go to your office or home someplace else, your hotel room, your United flight, that painting's not there because that's back in this other place.
There's a sense of like, I don't know.
So I think all that is really interesting.
I understand why people say what they say.
I respect it.
But I think it's another thing I said to our friend Dan.
It's like you just saw the teaser trailer for The Future and said, I'm not that into it.
You saw a two-minute teaser trailer, and then you said, that's it.
I'll just keep my horse.
I think a lot of people would say, if they saw a teaser of The Future, that they were not into it.
No thanks, they would say.
No, thank you.
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, especially in the southeast of the United States and the south and the Midwest and probably the north.
The United States does not want to see the future.
I went to a John Vanderslice show last night.
No kidding.
They're in Seattle?
Yeah, well, in Tacoma.
Oh.
But still.
No, no, that's awesome.
It's like a dewlap that hangs down below Seattle.
Dewlap, dewlap.
C-pop, dewlap.
But he talked about Central Florida for a while.
Time travel is only.
I'll choke farm.
Don't.
Did he get a hug?
Did he get a hug?
Yeah, so, but he was talking about Florida a lot, and...
And it didn't sound like they wanted to learn about the future down there, even in the even in the 70s when we were all alive, you and me and he.
Yeah.
He has a Florida connection, right?
He's from central Florida.
Yeah.
He grew up down there.
Florida grew up down there.
Oh, no, no.
He said his grandparents had a place up by the Suwannee River and they lived down closer to Swamptown, USA.
I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
See, but that's like naming the street after a peach in Atlanta.
There's so many swamps.
They had to disambiguate it when 9-1-1 came along.
Never forget.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, yeah.
Go to the blue swamp and turn left over to the orange swamp?
You didn't ask, but when I was a flower delivery boy in 1986, I would use a map, like a person, and I learned how to get around.
These days on your Apple goggles, you would be able to call that map up, presumably.
I would be able to write directly to the president of Hager Pants and say the rise in these is all wrong.
It's split my ball sack.
God, I wish it would split my ball sack.
My ball sack never touches my pants.
My ball sack would be closer to my knees at that point.
Oh, dear.
No, no, no.
I mean, I'm just as God made me, sir.
Oh, you're old.
You need to start over.
I'll send you a photo of me in pants.
Send it to the guy from Hager Pants.
You guys work it out.
We'll work it out.
I'm sorry.
So you start talking about our slice and... Oh, but I've been thinking about the Apple goggles a lot.
Did you ever buy the other Zuckerberg product, the one where you get to play...
uh world of warcraft or whatever with two little hoops in your hands did you ever buy that um no i i i'm just just i mean just to make it real easy i'm not personally personally surpassingly interested in using things like that i think it's very interesting and i see how it's valuable and there's a million if anybody wants to actually talk the tech stuff of this yeah there's a lot about this
I'm more excited by the fact that there's FaceTime on my Apple TV now.
How cool is that?
Like, that's a human interaction that I think I will use more now that I have it there.
But I've never, I don't think I've, the last, God, the last AR, like augmented reality thing that made me go, whoa, was probably 2010.
And somebody made this app built on top of Wikipedia, Wikipedia, where you could point it at something.
like on the horizon, and it could help you identify what the thing was.
Kind of like the way the astronomy apps work.
I mean astronomy apps, yep.
No, I have them.
I have like four of them.
Oh, I know.
Skyview.
I'm all about Skyview.
You point them at the star and you're like, wait a minute, is that the star or is that the star?
Have you seen the one that tells you when it's golden hour or tells you like where the, there's ones where you can have notifications.
They'll tell you, is the sunset going to be nice tonight?
Mm-hmm.
Does it tell you if you're going to see the green flash?
No, I think that's a DC thing.
I think that's from when he entered the time vortex.
I see what you're saying.
I don't know.
The green flash.
Is that a Northern Lights thing?
The green flash?
No, no, no.
The green flash.
Is that EMP?
I don't know whether they say green flash or whether they say green flash.
It's one of those like, is it Eugene or is it Eugene?
It's Green Flash.
What it is, it's a phenomenon.
Oh, please.
Okay.
I want to get back to Vanderslice, but tell me about Green Flash.
Well, it's a phenomenon where when people are watching the sunset over the ocean...
Some people, Merlin, some people.
Some people.
Report.
It's not like Frank Zappa.
Some people claim to see a green flash.
That's what it is.
It's a once-in-a-lifetime thing.
If you've seen it once, you'll never see it.
But beyond shooting star.
As the sun, just as the sun.
Okay.
Goes below, dips below the horizon.
Blink and you'll miss it.
There's a boop.
A flash of green.
Hmm.
like a thing where if it if you see it you'll you you will never be the same and if you have and if you are if you're listening right now i'm like i think i've seen the green no you haven't page about it on the internet science site this sounds like it's real green flash and you know i've spent a lot of time looking at the sun go down into the ocean boy let me tell you on the list of things i've done a lot that's on it
Not near the top, but it's on it.
And I've been looking for the green flash.
And I think that might be a thing where if you're looking for it, you'll never see it.
Or maybe not.
Like love.
And there are a lot of people that are like, I don't know about this green flash.
I think it's just a burp.
You know, it's like Ken Jennings.
Oh, the sun is always the same size.
It's like, sure, Mr. Science.
Sure, the sun's always the same size.
Well, that's how the moon gets you.
See?
See?
But the green flash, I've heard, I have met a person that saw the green flash.
Oh!
And you could see.
They seem different.
Well, yeah, they didn't just have two pupils anymore.
They had like nine pupils.
Oh, now they turned into an anime character.
From then on, they looked like Finn when he falls in love with a girl.
Ha ha ha!
That's so spice.
Oh, my God.
I was kidding.
We're talking about Adventure Time this morning.
Because we both heard, because you know how it is when you hear a word and it's a family word.
Yeah.
You know family words, right?
Sure.
You hear a family word and then everybody has to say it in the way the family says it.
And we heard, there was some mention somewhere about the small bivalve that people eat.
And at the exact same moment, we both go, clambulance.
Mute.
Anyway, I've been thinking about that a lot.
Wait, hang on.
Green Flash, Green Flash.
Okay.
And so then you get into this thing.
Also, I have, God, we haven't talked in a while.
I have a Ken Jennings update.
I just want to say quickly, I watched him.
I finally went back and stole the episodes of Greatest of All Time.
With him versus Holtzauer versus the other guy.
Oh, sure.
Who underperformed a little bit.
I mean, Jamie or whatever, he's like way better than he seemed.
But anyway.
He's a very smart guy.
Very smart guy.
He just wasn't there.
Yeah, it sucks, man.
Because I've seen that guy.
He is getting very, very fit, though, which is good.
Well, the thing about it, according to Ken, not to jump ahead.
Please jump ahead.
I will take all I can get.
All three of them knew the answer to every single question.
It was just about how fast you were on the button.
Right.
And then, of course, James was famous because of his background for his betting strategies.
Right.
Pushing it all in, all that stuff.
Except after he pioneered that, that's what they all do now.
I mean, Ken used the Holtzauer betting strategies.
Yes.
But it was – and in the run-up to that – He is so good at finding daily doubles.
It's uncanny.
Well, and that's the whole game.
That's the whole game, he says.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I believe it.
But he was really worried going in that morning –
uh because he just felt like holtzauer is younger than them and it's really about reflexes it's really about rhythm and time and you have to you have to know talked about that how he alex alex asked him it's so nice to see alex trebek again and when he says to him like how do you how do you prepare for this he says i do this i do that and ken's obviously so good at being interviewed for these kinds of things he's so delightful but he said he said something about how he said well honestly alex i listened to the cadence of your voice yeah
And like really studying the cadence of his voice gives you a better opportunity, even as an older man, to know where to jump in and not get buzzed out because you're too early.
Because they turn on the buzzer.
Somebody enables the circuit to happen at a moment after Alex has stopped speaking.
That's right.
At a certain kind of scene, like a little voomp.
And so Alex stops talking and there's this like voomp.
And I think the three of them can hear it in the magic.
Yeah.
And, uh, and so they're all like poised.
So anyway, but you also, the thing is though, you can't just, I think about this when I get into like in that case, watching four episodes to eight games of jeopardy, you get real into it and start noticing things, you know, I don't know.
So I don't, I'm not like an, I don't watch jeopardy every day, but I watch it pretty often, but yeah.
But there's such an uncanny combination of things you have to think about.
If you really are trying to play that game competitively, I really doubt I'm the first person to say this.
But on the one hand, you have to think about, like, what's the category?
And let's remember, is it blank and blank?
Is it, you know, before, during, after?
Like, all these ones.
And you've got to think about, well, how good is my world literature knowledge?
You can't just focus on buzzing in.
You also have to think about, am I willing—if I just focus on buzzing in—
I might buzz in super fast on a $2,000 question I'm pretty sure I don't know the answer to, which then gives my competitor the opportunity.
It's weird.
It's such a more strategic game.
It's like playing diplomacy or something.
Well, the thing that really struck me that he has explained multiple times is that Jeopardy does not want you to not know the answer.
He said, the questions are not designed...
for people not to know it because that would be terrible television that would be closer to a classic 50s game one of the crooked games like 21 or name that tune or something where you well name that tune i guess you play against somebody but some of those classic old games like 64 question or whatever would be just you right yeah and so that changes the come the composition of the game if you're playing against two other people
Well, and so what Jeopardy!
does is every clue within the question, there's the hint, the killer hint to the question.
Often it's a thing that disambiguates it from other seemingly obvious answers.
One little like pun or something.
You know, the question seems to be a thing, like, seems to be about a thing, like that one that everybody was mad about the other day, like, what former nation used to have X number of Koreans?
Oh, right.
And everybody was like, what kind of a weird question is that?
But within the question itself, there's a clue that if you just know what the
Then you have the answer and the answer is super obvious.
And if you get distracted by the terms of the question, it's just like an SAT question where you're like, ah, there's a trick here.
It's the equivalent in some ways of always read the instructions.
Right.
And so they all are attuned to that too.
Like what's the clue within the clue that is making this easy to solve rather than hard to solve?
Right.
I mean, obviously, there's some classic ones.
I don't know how Holtzauer in particular.
Hi, everybody.
Welcome to our new podcast about Jeopardy.
Holtzauer in particular, one thing he does that's interesting, he always answers what is.
He never uses any other.
He doesn't say who is.
He doesn't say where is.
He always says what is.
He always, always, always does that.
But he's also, I think, really good at – he's really good at –
He seems to take a beat.
I'm just carrying on at this point.
But he's a hell of a competitor.
Yes.
I only mentioned it because at one point they were doing the talking heads thing, which I usually skip.
And Ken said, well, how did you know this question about XYZ?
And he says, actually, yeah, we just talked about it recently on my podcast.
Oh.
And you mentioned your podcast.
He almost never does.
I figured.
He did that long New Yorker article the other day, not a single mention of Omnibus.
And I said, you know, Ken, that's like probably not 10,000 new listeners, but it might be even four new listeners or 14.
And he's like, oh, well, church and state.
You know, he's very church and state.
Yeah.
He seems very lawful good.
He's extremely lawful good, although there is a devil in him.
But let's not talk about that now.
But when you were listening to the goat, did you hear me in the audience?
Because you can hear me.
I do the, ha, ha, ha.
Oh, that was you.
Yeah.
Ho, ho, ha, la, ha, ha, ha.
You know, there's just a little bit of, and it's not, I'm not doing it to get on TV.
It's my natural reaction to things.
But there were some funny things.
Name a soap, a pope, and a dope.
Actually, I think that's Karnak, but...
oh you are right and so green flashes that's the kind of thing that where somebody could say well i've never seen that i've been around a long time and i've seen a lot of sunsets and it must make a person sound a little bit nuts to say i understand but here's the thing it's this thing that goes by really fast and you've got to be watching in this particular place you would think that all of the sea captains
would be like, ah, yes, I've seen the green flash, but they haven't.
Oh, you see Mr. Column hand me the lead.
Yes, exactly.
Mr. Column.
Wait, who was that?
Was that Jason?
You even asked me about my call with Jason.
Well, I heard that you and Jason Finn had a call about Master and Commander, but... We had a call about... I didn't want to hear about that.
What is this all?
Omnibus.
Omnibus call about many, many... I think for practical purposes, we might now be each other's attorney, and we're not really allowed to talk about it.
So wait, did you have a Thiracutha moment with him where he said, I'm finally going to get you on the hook here and tell you everything I've been thinking about, Roderick, on the line for the last 20 years?
Oh, God, I wish.
You could get Chris Ballew in on that call and listen to those two talk.
I would really, we talked a lot, funny enough, speaking of Chris, we did talk a lot about hearing loss.
Uh-huh.
And I was like, I was like, yeah, yeah, I spent three nights a week in front of, right, like right in the path of my friend's orange half stack.
And he's like, he's like, Merlin, you ever, I don't do a good Jason, but Merlin, you ever realize how close a snare drum is to your ear?
I don't know.
I'm like, oh, that must have been really loud.
For me, it was the hi-hat, which was right over my shoulder for 20 years.
And that's why I said to Jason, they're higher up.
You're more likely to recognize the sizzle of a Zildjian.
Like in a room, you might, you know, the guitar is getting miked and running through the big system.
But like, yeah, that's killing that range of the female voice.
Just killing it.
One of the things about drummers is they like to hit that hi-hat on every single beat for every single song forever.
And so, yeah, 20 years of... How many times do you think Stuart Copeland's hit a hi-hat?
I mean, I'm probably guessing at least a couple hundred.
Yeah, six to ten times more often.
He hits it 16 times per second.
He does.
The beginning of every little thing she does is magic.
I said this recently that Clem Burke's opening to Dreaming, the 15 seconds at the opening, remember how it starts four whole notes?
It's like... And it's all just all fills, like Max Weinberg style, fucking crazy fills.
That 15 seconds is more aerobic exercise than I've had in my entire adult life.
I love that kind of drumming too.
I do too.
I love it so much.
The new Springsteen live record, which is, you know, it's from the Darkness 78 tour, which is, I think, arguably their greatest performances and greatest, you know, some of their best known stuff of their live stuff is from that tour.
So it's different shows.
So if you've ever heard, you know, like that radio broadcast from 78 or whatever, you might have heard these, but oh my God, it's so fucking good and it's so clear and I really appreciate
Like, Max Weinberg is so steady.
You know what I mean?
He's so solid.
But his little fucking fills are just bananas all the time.
Like, Candy's room and stuff.
Oh, God damn it.
He's thinking about it a lot.
I've told you my theory that
that everything is about the doors when you really break it down.
I'm going to show some serious professional courtesy right here and hear you out about this, so please continue.
In the sense that Bruce Springsteen is the doors of Bob Dylan.
You should go back to talking about Vision Pro.
What shit you know about.
Whereas The Clash is the doors of punk rock, and The Jam is the doors of ska.
And Pearl Jam is the doors.
The jam is going to make the style council look like the honeycombs.
See, there's always the doors of every single movement.
And it's not one thing.
It's for that thing.
They're the doors.
That's right.
Of that thing, they are the doors.
You could probably have a doors of fast food restaurants.
Probably Roy Rogers.
You could.
And the thing about it is the doors of every single, uh, musical movement is very popular and threatens to define the, the movement like Springsteen defines the rock rockification of Dylan.
Yeah.
but he is the doors of that.
The Clash defines punk rock in a way, but they are the doors of it.
Is it too on the nose, though, to say maybe another candidate might be X?
Not just because of Ray Manzarek, but like... You're saying that there are other bands that do other... Well, like,
I don't like the Doors at all, and I think they're very overrated.
But X is one of the best bands, and if you watch that wonderful video for White Girl, which everybody should be watching probably once a month or so, that's quote-unquote live in the studio, but fucking DJ's just going ham on those drums.
And then John Doe's cigarette falls out of his mouth while he's playing bass.
It's really fucking cool.
But no, I don't think you can be the X of...
of x is in the variable because x came later right the doors are ur of all these other things the ur band well no just ur of these things that followed like you cannot be the doors of the british you're talking like fucking union you're getting yeah right well you can't go back and be like the doors of jazz but you can be the doors that album you can be well and it's a terrible book too
That's even worse as a book.
But like every successive musical movement, you can be the doors of it.
And what I'm saying is that the commonality, each one of these bands, you think of Pearl Jam as the doors of grunge, but really they are the doors before they are grunge.
Springsteen is the doors before he is.
So they all belong together.
They are the doors of music.
Would it crush the money to talk about what makes somebody the doors of something?
Well, I want everybody to sit with that for a while and think about it.
You know what?
You're right.
First, we got to invent the universe before we bake a cake.
Exactly.
Why is the jam the doors of ska?
Why?
I mean, clearly Pearl Jam is the doors of grunge.
It's not ska of punk?
Well, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
That's not punk.
No.
The Clash is the doors of punk.
And I know a lot of people are going to be, like, tearing their hair out right now, stomping around.
John Siracusa is getting in his Porsche and he's driving around the block doing donuts because he's like, I can't even handle this.
Because he can't do a New York bagel.
And the Clash have a song called Jail Guitar Doors.
See, there it is.
Jail Guitar Doors.
So anyway, think about it for a while and then come back with your question.
Is John Vanderslice the Doors, if anything?
He could very much be the Doors of something.
No, no, no, no.
I don't think so.
John Vanderslice is part of the indie rock tradition.
I mean, if you're going to say John Vanderslice is the Doors of John Darnielle...
Maybe, you know, another thing, though, is the you think about some for instance, what's the band?
What's the band where they sing about?
They sing out of their employee binder.
Yeah.
They sound like Bruce Springsteen and stuff.
They're indie rock.
Oh, come on.
Don't do this.
They're the doors of that.
See, I was afraid.
You talked about the doors.
You talked about Springsteen.
And you're going to drag Craig.
I fucking knew it.
I knew it.
Shoes and socks, baby.
Socks and shoes.
Just think about it and then go through everything.
You're talking about the Hold Steady, who Jason and I have recently been texting about.
The Hold Steady is the doors of whatever.
Whatever they are.
Whatever that is.
Now what about, is Neutral Milk Hotel maybe the doors of something?
I don't think so.
The doors of Louisiana?
No, because what makes the doors the doors, I don't think there's anything in Neutral Milk Hotel that has any of those elements.
They're not as overrated for sure.
Well, so there's a combination of things that make the doors the doors.
There's a combination of things that make Bruce Springsteen the doors of Rock Dylan.
And so on, right?
The doors of Rock Dylan sounds like a D&D module.
You find yourself surrounded by thieves in an inn drinking ale.
You incurred a lot of damage with that roll, my friend.
A bugbear walks up and asks you if you're up for an adventure.
Come on, come on now.
Touch me, warrior.
I use my crown of might to turn him into Ray Manzarek.
Oh, my gosh.
I remember a funny bit.
Gosh, this must have been maybe in my waning days of having Rolling Stone or following Rolling Stone.
But I remember a pretty funny bit.
When did Bill Wyman leave the Stones?
It had to be in the 2000s, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just remember there's a very funny quickie somebody had done that was like, our five suggestions or whatever for who should be the new bass player in the Rolling Stones.
And one of the suggestions was Ray Manzarek's left hand.
Oh, can you imagine?
Wouldn't that be great?
I think the opening riff for Light My Fire is very good.
You know, the thing is that that there are a lot of good songs.
Yeah.
Full stop.
Right.
Of everybody.
Think about all the songs.
There are a lot of them are good.
I've been making playlist for my kid and I've never done it before, except I bought her a T-shirt the other day.
That said, hi, it's me.
I'm the problem.
It's me.
Because she comes home from school every day and says, why am I always the problem?
And I go, welcome to my life.
Welcome to being a Roderick.
Oh my God, that's amazing.
That's exactly how I feel.
I always feel like I'm somebody else's problem or somebody else's project.
Exactly.
Oh, exactly.
Right.
You're a problem.
And then the people that love you, they just change that.
They take the letter, the R off of the letter sweater and turn problem into project.
Yeah.
I was just watching this really good documentary about New York City and they had the episode with Robert Moses and like the way that he like, you know, it's changed.
Yeah.
He did a lot of stuff.
Yeah.
not seeing new york or any large urban area we need to stop seeing this as a problem to be solved that like why don't we embrace the stuff that makes new york what it is instead of constantly trying to turn it into something that it's not at great cost and injury yes too late yeah yeah um but you and i both if somebody loves us they convert problem into project but most everybody else sees this as a problem
And my daughter is just experiencing that as a young person.
Why am I the problem?
Every situation, I'm the problem.
And so I saw this t-shirt, I thought it was funny.
That's a sucky feeling.
I hate that.
Well, but you've got to grow into it, you know.
I guess, yeah.
We get made, we are as God made us, sir.
So I find this shirt and I say, I say, wear this shirt when you're feeling this way and, you know, put it back at him.
Well, then I realized it was a Taylor Swift song.
Hi, it's me.
I'm the problem.
It's me.
Oh, wait.
Is that something Taylor Swift said?
It's a new Taylor Swift song, a recent.
And so I said, oh, by the way, BETW also, it's a Taylor Swift song.
And so she went and listened to it.
Well, so she's in the car.
We're driving along.
And I hear her listening to this song for the thousandth time.
And I say, when we- You willed that into being.
Well, and I think Tay Tay is a great artist, right?
And I like the song.
I like hearing my daughter singing it under her breath.
But I said, let me see your little device.
Let me see your playlists.
Well, she's only got a couple of playlists that she listens to over and over.
Because she's never, you know, she did not grow up in the technology.
She does.
She's not like a super technology, but she did figure out like I can make playlists and shows she's made a couple and she describes them as her pop one and her rock one.
Okay, cool.
So I said, would you like me to make you a playlist?
And she said, as you might, there's only one appropriate answer to this.
So take a minute.
Well, but she said it as you, and this is her, this is how she approaches media in general.
She said, well, yes, but I really only like songs that I already like.
Yeah.
And I said, yes, I understand.
I know exactly what you mean, but let me put some songs into a list.
You should call it the yellow zone.
And here we go.
Give her some yellow zone songs.
And what was interesting, that's right, a little bit of challenge.
There's a little challenge, but it's not difficult.
It's just music.
You'll be okay.
And so we could do this because she had her headphones on and I could be making playlists on her device while she is also listening to music at the same time and also, I guess, reading a graphic novel.
Yeah.
And so I had not Merlin, I know this is a thing that you love and many of our listeners love, but I had never done this.
Not since the long winter's tour days when we would sit and DJ for each other as we drove.
Was that mostly from an iPod probably?
Yeah.
Eric had an iPod.
Sean had an iPod.
Michael had an iPod.
They were, you know, Sean's iPad had even in 2004 had,
50 000 songs sure sure so it was really fun to do but but making a playlist on a streaming service is new for you it's well it's crazy because there's every song all i have to do is be like well what was that what was that b side that you know missing persons b-side that i heard one time oh there it is so i made her first a playlist of all the women in rock in punk rock that was listenable
And I put it all into a thing.
And then I made her a new wave playlist of just, you know, just like what I would call new wave.
Not what anybody else would.
Now that's what I call new wave.
That's exactly right.
Here's daddy's new wave.
And then I was like, but what I was doing is I was putting in songs.
Every fourth song was one I knew she knew.
Like she loves 99 Luftballons and she insists on the German one.
So I put it in there, right?
Fourth song in.
And then I know she loves.
So like every fourth song I gave her like a. Familiarity.
Yeah.
And then I would put in a couple.
A bondage up yours.
Yeah, right.
One pop one that she's going to like, like Kim Karn's Kids in America.
But then Falco's Rock Me Amadeus, which I know she's going to dig.
This is not the new wave one, by the way.
This is now now daddy got crazy and was like, can I do more of these?
I'm just that new wave list that I started for an episode of this show.
I've been adding to it for five years.
Yeah, it's so and I've.
I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I finally kind of re-released it to people last week because I'm like, this is actually a really good playlist.
And yes, again, that's what I call New Wave.
It may not be what you call New Wave, but I have my reasons.
The familiarity thing is so smart.
That happens a lot in computing also where it's like –
Even if you're having an experience of like, oh, here's things we recommend that you read.
If it has a pretty good sense that this is something you have read and like, it'll include it.
Because I think that increases your sense.
You know what I mean?
Just increases your sense of credibility that you do get me.
Anybody could just tell me a bunch of stuff I've never heard of.
But it's nice, even on my like Spotify, I don't know if you use Spotify or Apple or whatever, but like with, you know, between Release Radar and Discover Weekly or whatever it's called.
Like, yeah, I mean, like there's so much stuff in there.
Like replacements.
Oh, really?
There's a song by The Replacements called Can't Hardly Wait?
Wow, I should check that out.
Given that I literally started a band to be able to cover it in 1988.
Well, and I'm sure if the algorithms knew about me, just based on the number of Japanese salvage genes show up in my Facebook, because I looked at them one time, it's just like, oh, I don't want you to know more.
But then, of course, I'm encountering the thing that you probably encountered with your kid when they were one years old, which is that you were like, how soon before I introduced them to the Stones album, Sticky Fingers, right?
You were thinking about that a long time before I was.
Like, how is my child going to integrate the replacements into their 2010 culture?
If I do this in the right way, I tried to do this with Pixies, and I still think it'll happen someday.
But there were certain bands, like especially Pixies, where I was like, I'm going to like, what's the Christopher Nolan movie?
You know, I'm going to like Incept.
Yes.
This into you.
And like you're going to next time you hear gigantic, you're going to really remember.
It will be there.
Right.
And so I was like, how do I get her so that how do I get her so that she can listen to the stones?
Because it's a long way.
It's a long journey to get to.
Rolling Stones the Rolling Stones that I like for her from where she rocks off is my favorite Rolling Stones song But it wouldn't be my favorite Rolling Stones song if I hadn't grown up listening to whatever that's called high tides and green grass or whatever that double album of greatest hits greatest if I hadn't like Cut my teeth listening to that over and over when I did finally hear
I mean, I think Rocks Off is like one of the greatest songs.
The sunshine bores the daylight out of me.
It's a great song.
But, you know, you can't just you can't go right into that.
You know, you want to give them a little bit of can't go right into the heroin.
You know, you got to start by sniffing glue or something.
I went to college with a group of guys that were from San Francisco.
And in San Francisco at their particular Catholic high school, Exile on Main Street was what they listened to when they were freshmen.
And so by the time they were in college and all the other cool stoners were like, have you heard Exile, man?
They thought of it as like, oh, you mean a bunch of high school music?
Like they had already grown.
But you and I are also from the age where you've got the older, I don't mean this to be gendered, but like somebody's older brother or somebody's dad.
My friend Sam's dad had help.
And Rubber Soul.
And he's the one that got me into shit like Steel Eye Span.
That then got me into stuff like Fairport Convention.
Like a lot of that folky, you know, kind of like British Isles folk rock from the time, Pentangle and stuff like that.
We call that Wesley Stace music, yes.
Oh, interesting.
I just watched a really good Richard Thompson documentary.
But no, no, you're absolutely right.
This is difficult, John.
This is a high degree of difficulty.
You need to thread a needle.
So you might not approve of this.
You might think I'm crazy.
You might think I'm crazy.
but all I want is her to listen to the cars one day and not think, why is this not, why do I not like these sounds, right?
Because I'm talking to her about like, here are songs, but here are, there are songs that are also about sounds.
And she's like, hmm.
And I'm like, no, no, no.
Wait for daddy.
Like there are songs, there are sounds that give you feelings just as much as words.
So what I did was I made a playlist and I put,
knights in white satin and Richard Harris singing.
Someone left the cake out in the rain.
Like I'm putting, I'm putting the corn.
It took so long to bake it.
I put the corn up there, but it's got the sounds, right?
It's the corn plus the sounds.
No, I get it.
That's how the doors, you know, that's how Pearl Jam becomes the doors of brunch.
You can't attract a chicken with a playlist.
You got to put some corn in it.
You can't go right to Sway and say, listen, this is about all his friends being dead.
Oh, Sway, not Sway.
Sway is in the Stone song.
Yeah.
No.
Not Suede.
Oh, it's such a good song.
I don't think you can go to Suede.
London Suede is very good, too, though, for what it's worth.
It's hard for me to get there because I don't understand.
I understand.
I understand, yeah.
Oh, the pulp is on the axis.
Oh, absolutely.
They're horny, right?
Oh, fuck.
I mean, like, oh God, he wants to, you know, she wants to, but I don't, but I don't, I'm not giving her any horny music as far as I can tell.
That's the great thing about new wave.
The horny is so, so buried under the synthesizers that you would have to already be so horny to even recognize that.
That there's, you know, that there's horny.
Yeah, a lot of stuff that might just appear to be a medical condition is a kind of horniness.
David Byrne, super horny.
Well, a lot of cocaine, too.
Sure.
But his songs are pretty horny.
Yes, they are.
It's just about being nervous about horniness in some ways.
Yeah, exactly.
That's the thing.
Are you nervous about horny?
Are you mad about horny?
Devo, same with Devo.
I mean.
But you're not going to hear it.
You're not going to hear it right away, right?
She might like Girl You Want.
Girl You Want.
Oh, she loves Devo.
Devo's all over her playlist.
Oh, great.
And she sings along with Devo.
She sings along with They Might Be Giants.
They Might Be Giants is another one.
I know those guys pretty well.
There's no horniness in it.
But...
But it doesn't mean that you can't listen to it and feel horny.
But that comes later.
That's way, way later, way down the road.
I guess.
Right?
So anytime there's a sequencer, I feel like the horniness goes out or the horniness is replaced because the sequencer is intrinsically not horny.
What about Vince Clark stuff?
What about early Depeche Mode or Yaz?
No, no, no.
You can find it.
Like small town boy.
Okay.
You have to be feeling it already.
It's not going to make you horny.
Oh, I see.
It's like the way when I would take ephedrine, I take it with a Coke.
And I would say Coke was my activator.
You're saying you've got your nitroglycerin.
I don't know how it works.
But like you've got your dynamite supplies over here.
But like you got to get a fuse in one of those red tubes to put it in.
If you're 16 and your eyeliner is smeared.
You sell red tubes.
What do you want it for?
You know like in cartoons, you're talking about like a can for soup?
This is a pawn shop, sir.
It's kind of like not a stick, but for nitroglycerin.
Yeah, a stick of nitroglycerin, they call it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, tetrahydrocabinol.
Oh, tetrahydrosaline.
Yeah, cababinol.
Is that right?
So I'm trying to, I'm trying to, uh, I'm trying to, I don't know what I'm trying to do because I've never made a playlist before.
It's a spoonful of sugar type situation.
But like in the last 10 days, all of a sudden.
You get some of this, but then you get a little Beyonce countdown in there, which everybody should love.
I put daddy lessons in there.
Which is too far, except there's a way to read Daddy Lessons that's just a cowboy story.
Because it's horny?
No, it's not horny.
It's about shooting bad guys, but it's about shooting bad guys if you're Beyonce, which is like, okay, what's hello?
But I think she can listen to it and hear it as something that's simpler, but it'll be there for her when she's complicated, which she isn't quite.
Yeah.
As far as you know.
Well, but, you know, like, pandemic plus only child plus Montessori plus the fact that there are no other kids around.
There's slightly more, you know, slightly more eyes on the prize.
She's got plenty of time to get weird on her own.
She'll be fine.
Oh, for sure, for sure, for sure.
But I'm weird because what I'm doing sitting here right now is like, well, when can I get...
back to making playlists which is not a disease that i had before it's not a drug that i ever took before and now i just want to make them and send them out to the world i want to have like a little it's difficult to sort of explain like why it's so fun and addictive yeah i mean but there's so much to it kind of put them in the right order man oh my god john well as you know when i pretend to fall you know that one's up there for me you're good at sequencing
Oh, BT dubs.
I just heard that there's a group now with Barsouk coordinating and they're re-releasing the Long Winters records on vinyl.
Oh, that's cool.
This year, this fall.
That must be fun.
Yeah, the ones that are yelling at me all the time like...
I had to pay $800 for this.
I don't have... I mean, a kid has a turntable.
I don't, but I would just like to pretend to fall just because it's big and pretty.
Yeah, it's pretty, is right.
Sean... Sean... What's his name?
Sean?
Who's your guy?
Sean Wolf.
Sean Wolf.
Yeah, he did.
You're lousy with Sean's.
There's so much to it.
One is, like...
There's something, there's a, I don't know how you describe it, a kernel of an idea, like something out there.
Like in this case, so originally this was from, so this is called New Wave That Still Stands Up, which started out as a list of the songs you and I mentioned in that episode and has grown to 53 songs.
It's three hours and 20 minutes long.
And what I'm happy I introduced to these.
Road trip.
is putting in stuff that probably people don't know.
But is it all stuff that we talk about?
No, no, it's expanded beyond that.
Like the song With You by O Positive, like I think hardly any, some people will know Into the Light by Suzy and the Banshees, but like Lost Weekend, Stars by Permitons, like these songs that were like I taped off the radio.
Like I'm not trying to be cool, but like, and then it's all about, then you're going through and you're going like, what's my pick for this?
You taped off college radio.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, WMNF.
And then, like, you, but you, like, then you've got to think about sequencing, and then you've got to think, now, one of the most difficult ones is where you go, okay, now I need to pare this down.
This is, this is... Oh, what goes off?
This one, I've kind of let my witch out.
Mm-hmm.
There's this one.
My other, this is a favorite of mine.
Another favorite of mine is called To Say Hey I Love You.
And it's songs that I love that creep me out as a kid.
Okay.
Including the titular, You Light Up My Life.
Yes.
But it's stuff, that's where you find your, well, Bob Welch is on a lot of these lists.
He's obviously on, he is the backbone of the Made of Cocaine playlist.
Yeah.
Yes.
But it's also stuff like David's soul.
Remember that song David's soul had?
Yes, yes, yes.
Minor hit.
What about the Bruce Willis hits?
Are you putting those on?
No, Bruno did not return, unfortunately.
Boy, that was an odd thing when that happened.
Let me see if I can find this real quick.
This is really confusing.
They make it very difficult to be organized.
Yeah.
Well, I said to her, what are the songs that you listen to when you're sad?
Oh, interesting.
And she said that she wasn't sure if she had songs that she listened to when she was sad.
And then after a couple of hours, she came back and she said, she started naming songs that made her sad.
Okay.
And I was like, okay, well, that's different but the same.
And...
But what I realized was she doesn't yet listen to songs when she's sad to reinforce the sad.
Right.
That's where in some ways, like where to me, like where Elliot Smith, not, not, it's not, I don't mean it as a prescription, but the, but I find myself listening to either, or I'm in a certain state of mind.
Right.
Waltz number three is a is a classic.
Like, put that on if you want to feel sad.
If you're already feeling sad.
Yeah, absolutely.
You're not if you're happy and you put it on.
If you're happy and you know it.
Exactly.
I just said to say how I love you.
So it starts out.
So you got the night the lights went out in Georgia, which I thought was really a strain.
And it was a woman from Carol Burnett, which seems strange.
Vicki Lawrence saying it's the night that the lights went out in Georgia.
Oh, Vicki Lawrence.
You know, how about that?
She ran Colin Wildfire.
How about Andrew Gold's Lonely Boy?
See, now you're into some AM radio sad.
Magnet and Steel by Walter Egan.
That song freaked me out when I was a kid.
I love it.
But if you could read my mind, Gordon Whitefoot.
You've got to have City of New Orleans on there.
Oh, that's a weird one.
But now you're also kind of getting into Snoopy and the Red Baron territory.
Just a song before I go.
All of this stuff is like, I'm going to kill my spouse.
That's why it says, okay, hit shuffle for a quick tour of some of the ineffably disturbing songs that obsessed Merlin as a kid.
It's right on the tin.
Ben, the two of us need look no more?
You don't know why you want to kill your husband when you're our age, but you do realize it's- Everybody wants to kill their husband.
It's just a question of the right activator.
That's exactly right.
Which Carpenter song is going to make you want to kill your husband, even though it sounds fun?
Oh, Top of the World.
Oh, you're looking down on creation.
We sang that in my church when I was little.
You know, my mom made us go to church just to know about the Bible.
John, stop right there.
We sang it in our church too.
Did you change one word in the song like our church did?
I don't remember.
What is it?
And the only explanation I can find is the love that I've found ever since you've been around.
Jesus put me on the top of the world.
No, we didn't do that.
We were a West Coast-like Kumbaya church.
Even though it was Presbyterian, but if you had said the word Jesus, people would have been like, come on, what are you, some kind of kook?
Yeah.
Anyway, that's a good one.
But you're not going to say it around the campfire.
This was campfire Christianity.
Oh, I loved those songs.
I still can play a bunch of them.
I learned them when I learned how to play guitar.
I learned the Christian camp songs.
Silver and gold.
Silver and gold have I none.
That's where we get the Lumineers and Mumford and Sons.
It's all Christian campfire.
Oh, clap, stomp, clap, stomp.
Yeah, that's all just Jesus music that people learned from.
People learned it around the camp, and then they were like, hey, I could write this.
Rainy D's and Mondays is number 14 on this list.
That's such a good song.
That's a great song.
Seasons in the Sun by Terry Jacks.
That song was freaking out as a kid.
Did you know that Captain and Tennille was Muskrat Love?
Captain Dragon.
Captain Dragon and his lovely wife, Tennille.
That song, Muskrat Love, was my sexual awakening.
Yeah.
I remember there being a little bit – now, I mentioned just very quickly in passing a minute ago, I think I mentioned this, but there was a song by Jefferson Starship called Miracles that I to this day cannot believe made it onto the radio.
We'll remember – what's his name?
Not Marty Ballin.
Marty – whoever the singer guy is.
He says, I got a taste of the real world, baby, when I went down on you, girl.
Oh, wow.
And so, like, there's that.
Or, you know, you got the Stones singing about something and something.
It's a bitch.
And so you're telling me, I remember there being a little bit of a dust up about muskrat love that it was about coitus between muskrats.
It's a little bit.
Well, it's right there in the title.
Muskrat love.
What does that mean?
It's just like romantic love between muskrats.
Oh, yeah.
You seem like maybe like the friends, they fish together or something.
Yeah.
No, I think it's humping.
I think it's horny.
Start a restaurant or something.
That's all horny music.
And and and and Tennille is very cute.
And the captain inscrutable.
And I felt like, oh, he's like the Harpo Marx, right?
Like he didn't talk in interviews and stuff.
He didn't talk.
No, he just made all the all the tunes like that.
You know, the hat does all the talking.
But for me as a kid, I recognized already a I was the problem.
I didn't know why.
Where's your shirt?
And for me, I was like, oh, maybe the secret is to be a guy that wears sunglasses and a captain's hat and never says anything, but somehow managed to be in a band with Tennille.
People are going to have a lot of questions about that guy.
Who is that guy?
Who's the guy in the captain's hat?
Well, you know, he's basically Jonathan Colton, except without a beard.
You said Michael Bolton?
No, I said Jonathan Colton.
If you look at Jonathan Colton and the Captain from Captain Dragon, you're going to see a lot of similarities, except Colton didn't have somebody else to do the singing.
Yeah.
Yeah, and I did feel like, oh, maybe Captain Hat.
And then for a while I was like, oh, maybe denim vest with a lot of patches on it.
Maybe that's... What about Shields and Yarnell?
You could pick either one.
Remember them?
They were the mimes that had a TV show?
They were mimes?
Yeah, that's my... I'm going to pick Shields every time.
Yes.
Well, nothing wrong with Yarnell.
I wouldn't kick her out of bed for pretending to eat crackers.
Which one...
It took me a second.
It took me a second.
Too fast.
Too fast.
They had the same haircut.
Honey, come to bed.
I can't.
I'm stuck in this glass box.
You're not supposed to talk.
Fuck off.
I love you.
I love you too.
The hat did all the talking.