Ep. 538: "An Onstage Immortal"
Merlin: I can never get the audio the way I want.
Merlin: Hello, John.
Merlin: How are you?
Merlin: Hi, Merle.
Merlin: Oh, dear.
John: Hi, Merlin.
Merlin: How are you?
Merlin: I can't get my audio right.
Merlin: Is that right?
Merlin: Well, I just, I like it really loud and it's, but then I get what they call bleed.
Merlin: Oh, you get bleed.
Merlin: You get a little bit of bleed.
Merlin: I don't want to trigger anybody, but, you know.
John: Do you need some over-the-ear headphones?
Merlin: Oh, I got them, you know?
Merlin: Yeah, I know.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: You like it really loud, though.
Merlin: Loud?
Merlin: I want to hear it loud right between the eyes.
John: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
John: yeah have you ever have you have you ever have i ever have you ever have you ever done a recording uh seems like i should know this have you ever done a podcast where it was just you talking yes
Merlin: The first podcast that I did regularly was just me.
Merlin: Huh.
Merlin: I mean, you know, I could start whenever I wanted.
Merlin: Everybody was on time.
Merlin: It was easy to edit.
Merlin: Didn't have too much bleed.
John: Not a lot of bleed.
John: Have you ever done, then, a podcast where you didn't have headphones?
John: Where you just talked into a microphone?
Merlin: That's a good question.
Merlin: I don't think so.
Merlin: So, honestly, really just the opposite, where like, I'm trying to answer your question.
Merlin: No, I don't think I have, but what's funny is like, especially in the age after, you know, Zoom became so necessary for everybody, I always seem like the weirdo.
Merlin: If I'm on a podcast, you can see this, if I'm ever on something that, God forbid, has video, I'm often the only one wearing...
Merlin: closed headphones with a professional mic next to my face and everybody else is just talking to their laptop.
John: I'm that same guy.
John: Every time I meet somebody, they come on and I'm just like, hello, I'm talking to you through like an enormous microphone and I have big headphones on and I'm sitting in my living room.
Merlin: Oh, I got I have.
Merlin: You don't want to get me started on this.
Merlin: I have so much to say about this.
Merlin: Yes, that would not be interesting to people.
Merlin: But you know, just in some, like you see this on a cable news hit.
Merlin: We're like, I understand.
Merlin: Like if you're some kind of professor emeritus at like an NYU law school and you're 190 years old or like you're one of those.
Merlin: It's always cops.
Merlin: Cops never know how to turn off their phone because, you know, when they try out, you know, different kinds of goblins on cable news, depending on what kind of tragedy has happened.
Merlin: Oh, I don't watch it, so that's news.
Merlin: Yeah, well, this will be good for you then.
Merlin: But, like, anytime something happens with... They're like... They bring out a goblin.
Merlin: Oh, God.
Merlin: What happened?
Merlin: So what had happened was, you get something like, I'm sorry to say, like a school shooting or a mall shooting or all the shootings that we get, and they pull out the hand trucks, and they go into the containment facility, and they roll out all these fucking mummies.
Merlin: They have their... They're on their laptop...
Merlin: There's one guy in particular.
Merlin: It's like, this is a retired head of the Philadelphia police department.
Merlin: And he looks like he kind of looks like Webster.
Merlin: Like he looks like he's about three feet tall, has no neck.
Merlin: And he's always his laptop is in such a way that he looks like a little, little man.
Merlin: And then they ask all of these goblins to come out and start speculating.
Merlin: about what has happened and what what has happened what is happening and what will happen and if you get a cop goblin they're more than happy to speculate endlessly about what's happening in real time right now sure beats working am i right i do often wonder what they get paid for that
Merlin: But do you know what I'm talking about?
Merlin: You don't.
Merlin: But you'll say something happens, something horrible.
Merlin: And it's like, oh, a bunch of people got shot at a supermarket.
Merlin: Right now, the police are out there running down all their leads.
Merlin: I wouldn't be surprised.
Merlin: I don't want to speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were six other guys.
Merlin: And you're like, oh, Jesus.
Merlin: And it's just they got to feed that gaping maw of interest in human tragedy.
Merlin: And they trot out the goblins.
Merlin: They have different sets of goblins.
Merlin: They got legal experts.
Merlin: They got cop experts.
Merlin: They got election experts.
Merlin: And then they bring them out and they mix and match like a kind of like an unholy checks mix.
Merlin: And all these people are just talking into the microphone.
Merlin: Sometimes they have, if it's a reporter and they're on their laptop, they'll have their AirPods in.
Merlin: But you still see the jitter of like the fact that they're using a laptop and like it's... I don't know.
Merlin: I just think it's weird.
Merlin: I'm not saying...
Merlin: I know it's weird when we have a parent-teacher conference.
Merlin: And sometimes it's honestly just easier for, like, if we're doing a Zoom conference, like back in the, you know, 2020 era.
Merlin: I guess so.
Merlin: Well, you know, it's like during COVID when you got to do everything over Zoom, right?
Merlin: See, see, see.
Merlin: I don't know if you run into this, but there's times if you're doing it remotely, it is actually easier for Madeline to be on a computer of her own and me to be on a computer of my own.
Merlin: Completely, completely.
Merlin: I know that sounds weird.
Merlin: And I would never do anything to throw my wife many years under the bus, but she has these wackadoo Zoom things that she does, and she doesn't really know how to turn them off.
Merlin: Like, you mean background effects, or does it turn her into a panda bear?
Merlin: on everything below, behind, like, say, the back of her chair.
Merlin: And no matter where I sit, I disappear.
Merlin: Sure, you're coming out of the fuzz, going back into the fuzz.
Merlin: I have to move forward for just the very front part of my face to appear in the image.
Merlin: So in that case, I'm only just saying that because, like, I know it's weird that I have, what microphone do I have?
Merlin: An EV something.
Merlin: I've got a microphone on a boom, and I'm wearing headphones, and I think it makes me look sweaty.
John: Oh, I see.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
John: It makes me look like a try-hard.
John: Yeah, or maybe like you're a troglodyte, like a basement dweller.
Merlin: Daddy can't come upstairs.
Merlin: People with those Garth Brooks things where they got the headphones with the built-in microphone, those gaming things where you yell homophobic slurs at your friends and talk about who to murk, that kind of thing.
Merlin: Those have always sounded terrible.
Merlin: It sounds like you're talking through...
Merlin: A toilet paper tube.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: So anyway, I know that makes... I use the big microphone because in almost every Zoom meeting, I can do this.
John: I can do the... John, I got two words for you.
Merlin: Proximity effect.
Merlin: It's not just a very good, not a surf record.
Merlin: It's also the ability to say...
Merlin: Well, I don't have anything to say at this point, but my child is very special.
John: You can really take control of a meeting.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: John, that is sultry.
John: Yeah, it is.
Merlin: That's your instrument.
Merlin: In a lot of ways, a guitar is kind of your instrument, but your voice.
John: This also is an instrument.
Merlin: Oh, listen to that.
Merlin: You know, they say the mouth is the largest erogenous zone.
Okay.
John: The whole meeting just has to, like, everybody has to lean forward.
Merlin: Well, you know what they say in those classes you take?
Merlin: You know, they say if you want people to listen, you've got to talk quietly.
Merlin: That's what they say.
Merlin: That's why nobody listens to me.
Merlin: I'm going to do that.
Merlin: No, no, that's not true.
Merlin: Everybody listens to me.
Merlin: Should I do that, too?
John: Well, yeah.
John: I mean, that's the thing.
John: Those little microphones, they don't pick up the whispers.
John: They don't pick up the mouth sounds.
John: ASMR.
John: And everybody's got ASMR.
John: All the teachers have ASMR.
John: Get your face right up.
John: Right up on it.
John: I don't know if those are the sounds you want to make at a parent-teacher conference.
John: So the diorama is due on Tuesday now, is that correct?
Merlin: When's the diorama due?
Merlin: That should be non-biblical.
Merlin: Could it be Star Wars characters in the shoeboxes?
Merlin: I mean, some of them are from Empire Strikes Back, but we've got a lobot.
Merlin: It's a shame the way we took away all those Native American lands.
Merlin: Go ahead.
Merlin: Sorry to interrupt you.
Merlin: Go ahead.
Merlin: No, no, that's a shame.
Merlin: See, I can't even do it.
Merlin: I can't do it.
Merlin: Because I need to yell loud enough to hear it in my head.
Merlin: And I'm so glad of making a point that I feel like... See, they don't need it.
John: They don't know about the howling jet engine sounds that are going on inside, in between your ears all the time.
Merlin: You have to yell over.
Merlin: 737 Max.
Merlin: They did not bolt the doors on.
Merlin: Coming out of the sky.
Merlin: Won't you take me down to Memphis on a midnight ride?
Merlin: I want to go.
Merlin: And, you know, but that's my instrument.
Merlin: It sounds like a clarinet that someone dropped on purpose a lot.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: They call it licorice stick.
Merlin: Yeah, licorice stick.
Merlin: It's a licorice stick.
John: Trumpets from the walls that are heralding the approach of a bottle for me.
Merlin: Yeah, I don't know, man.
Merlin: And the teacher is also... Gosh, you know what?
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: This is so random.
Merlin: You're so random.
Merlin: Oh my God, you're so cringe.
Merlin: I'm not super into the whole pussy hat culture.
Merlin: Pussy hat culture?
Merlin: Wait a minute, you're not?
Merlin: I'm like six pussy hats.
Merlin: Like an orange Cheeto kind of guy?
John: oh you know no you know what i mean you know like wine moms who hate trump and that's all they talk about like i don't want to i don't i don't want that to be like you know my brand you know what i'm saying i mean i have six pussy hats because you know that was a real fashionable thing to wear to march because sometimes a girl brings five friends and then everybody's done with the march and they all made these pussy hats and nobody wants nobody wants them on a daily
Merlin: Well, it's almost like when you have something, an attempt at humor during the time of COVID, and it's like, no, I really super don't want to watch the Grey's Anatomy COVID season.
Merlin: There's so much about it.
Merlin: We're just all trying to be relevant, and I don't want to relive that time.
Merlin: Valid.
Merlin: You want to be valid.
Merlin: But, you know...
Merlin: And let's be honest, a lot of those goblins, they're not pussyhat people.
Merlin: But there was a very funny thing.
Merlin: When the former mayor, America's mayor of New York, Rudolph Giuliani, he did a press conference at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping in Philadelphia.
John: Oh, I remember it so well.
Merlin: it was pretty funny.
Merlin: It's across the street from a crematorium and like a, an adult bookstore or something.
Merlin: But there was a woman who did a, I don't know if you saw it, but one of the rare, extremely actually funny things, very influenced by Bob Newhart.
Merlin: And it's a woman, she's very Philadelphia.
Merlin: She's very, she sounds like she's got that like, you know,
Merlin: maryland philadelphia kind of accent and she says she answers the phone she's i don't that's me that's my bit licorice stick uh she goes it's a four season total landscaping and all you hear is her side of the conversation with obviously what's supposed to be rudolph giuliani's people do you remember seeing this i don't think so i don't think so
Merlin: I like it already.
Merlin: I'll send it to you, but I still watch it because it's very funny.
Merlin: You know I love Bob Newhart.
Merlin: I love his telephone.
Merlin: That was very influential when I used to talk into my show.
Merlin: Yeah, you do that well, too.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, we're wheels up, you know, that kind of thing.
Merlin: But she's like, and she's like, well, no, we don't have that.
Merlin: We just do, you know, mow lawns.
Merlin: And it's like, you want to what?
Merlin: You want to come here?
Merlin: Do we have a podium?
Merlin: Like, no.
Merlin: And then at one point she goes, hey, hey, look, don't yell at me.
Merlin: I'm just trying to match your energy.
Merlin: And I still laugh at that line so much.
Merlin: I think about it so much.
Merlin: But it's weird.
Merlin: Do you ever get this?
Merlin: Where you're on a Zoom call or similar with a teacher or similar.
Merlin: And like, they have such different energy than I do.
Merlin: What I'm trying to say is, I laugh because I think about that phrase, I'm just trying to match your energy.
Merlin: And I don't know how to act with 28-year-old women who teach 10th grade.
Merlin: Some of them, I want to say, some of them are like, God, my kid has so many amazing teachers.
Merlin: Offline, I could tell you so many great stories about the amazing teachers my kid has.
Merlin: But it'll be some...
Merlin: Some peppy woman in her 20s with roommates.
Merlin: And their energy is so different from mine.
Merlin: And I think the headphones and the EV mic are not helping.
Merlin: But I think I seem like such an energy weirdo to most people on a Zoom call.
Merlin: Yeah, I see.
Merlin: I see that now.
Merlin: Are you good at that?
Merlin: Because you talk real quietly and you exercise the proximity effect with your instrument.
Yeah.
Merlin: I'm over here tinkering with my licorice stick.
John: I mean, this is one of the... You and I are on different sides of the entertainment spectrum.
John: Oh, you're entertaining and I'm not.
John: No, I came up in an audience-based... You're looking at an audience.
John: You're in a room, a physical room with them.
John: You are looking at them and they are giving you feedback immediately.
Merlin: Audience is part of the performance.
John: Yes.
John: Everything you do, everything you say...
John: you can get an immediate sense whether they're watching you, whether they are into it.
Merlin: And also because you know how something, I doubt you repeat yourself too much, but you know how a bit should land.
Merlin: Like, you know if something like this bit always kills in the Midwest, like, and you didn't get the reaction you expected.
Merlin: You kind of like, is this thing on, right?
Merlin: Like, isn't there something where you're like, you're used to, you've been developing your shtick and you know what works and doesn't and it seems weird if the energy's wrong.
John: That's the other thing.
John: I mean, somebody like me has died a thousand times on stage enough that now I can't die on stage.
John: I've died so many times.
Merlin: You can't kill me.
John: I'm already dead.
John: That's right.
John: I mean, there's nothing an audience can do to hurt me now.
John: Because, just because I've done it a thousand times.
John: I did a show the other night.
John: I did a show on Thursday.
John: I heard a rumor.
John: I heard a rumor that you're doing your event again.
John: I did a show.
John: It's a hundred capacity room.
John: Could you please remind people what it's called?
John: Well, this one doesn't have a name yet.
John: Oh, okay.
John: This isn't the Roderick's Rendezvous anymore because it's in a different theater.
John: It's called the Rabbit Box Theater.
John: And it's a perfect little, the woman that's built the theater out has built it out like a Wes Anderson fantasy land.
John: It's got a little poster restaurant in there where you can write postcards and put them in a little brass mailbox and she'll mail them for you.
John: It's got a full kitchen.
John: It's under the Pike Place Market.
John: But it's 100 capacity, right?
John: That's basically like two city buses.
Merlin: And just for context for me, that's a little smaller than most of the theaters where we've performed live.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Oh, yes.
Merlin: Or approximately the same, a little smaller.
Merlin: A little small.
John: That's intimate.
John: And it's dinner, right?
John: And I walked out on stage.
John: Yeah, there's food.
John: It's like you're having an experience.
John: You're doing John Roderick dinner theater?
John: It's a little dinner theater.
John: Oh, this changes everything.
John: And I hadn't been on stage in that way, by which I mean there's no band there.
John: There's no opening act.
John: There's no other excuse for the people to be in the room other than there to see me do whatever I'm going to do.
John: It doesn't say even what I'm going to do.
John: It's not, it wasn't clear whether I was going to play music.
Merlin: That's kind of the benefit of a hundred seat theater, if I could say though, is like, there's a bit around the time Jonathan was kind of coming up as an independent, people would say, there was a, I'm sorry, I don't remember who said this, but somebody had said something like, we're now entering an era where you can have a career out of 1,000 true fans.
Merlin: That's it.
Merlin: And if you've got a hundred people who are there just to see whatever it is you're going to do, there's worse things in life.
Merlin: I'd rather have a hundred people who see what I want to do than 6,000 people who don't.
Merlin: Yeah, it's marvelous.
Merlin: It's like Jimi Hendrix opening for the monkeys.
John: It's like Jimi Hendrix opening for the monkeys.
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: Well, you know that's true, right?
John: I do know that's true.
Merlin: I can think of other ones, but there's a lot, like the thing is in California, there's a lot of like, there's like a cool guy scene in the sixties, especially because of Monterey pop.
Merlin: There's a lot of people who like became acquainted with people from England and like you had these really weird pair ups for a while where you'd have the oddest bands opening for others.
Merlin: But no, I'm just saying it's nice.
Merlin: If that's a hundred, exactly a hundred souls,
Merlin: Better than a sharp stick in the eye, I always say.
John: Well, and so, but walking out on stage into that room, excuse me.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: It's all part of the show.
Merlin: Whatever's in John's dinner theater is in John's dinner theater.
John: The amount, I mean, it's extremely intimate.
John: And it's, and because it's a small theater, everybody's sitting pretty close together.
John: And I walked out and I made a, I made a hello, you know, hello.
John: And there's the applause.
John: And then
John: And then it settled down and the natural amount of talking that this hundred people was going to do during the show was very low.
Merlin: Which is a little unusual.
John: A lot of applause and then pin drop silence.
John: And I said, okay, well, and made a couple of lighthearted remarks.
John: Did you single anybody out, or did you still keep it about the audience?
John: At first, I was just like, here we are.
Merlin: I would immediately start singling people out.
John: Well, and that's the thing.
John: I wasn't ready to do crowd work.
John: I was just setting up my guitar or whatever.
John: And then the baseline amount of noise in the room...
Merlin: Sorry, sir.
John: Is this interfering with your ability to check Facebook?
John: Hey, you get your feet off the stage.
John: No, it was it was it was back to silence and wrapped attention.
John: Oh, geez.
John: That's a lot.
John: And that's well.
John: And that's a room that then is establishing itself as an entity.
John: Right.
John: Everybody in the room is now.
John: on board together because there's not one person in the back that's like, but it must feel a little bit like a jury.
John: We're not sure what they're thinking.
John: Well, and this is the thing standing up there in, when you're in that kind of space where there's nobody that's like, Hey John, or, you know, there's not, there's no, people aren't even like tapping their pencils on their desks.
John: It's like, it's not.
John: And, but I, but you can't die in that environment.
John: You can't be uncomfortable.
John: They're all here to see you.
Merlin: That's an instinct that, I don't want to say amateurs, but that's an instinct that a lot of people who are even pros have to fight.
Merlin: And that's why every time, because I don't really get stage fright, and I have friends who do, who are very talented performers.
Merlin: But I would always say the same thing before we go out.
Merlin: I would say, just remember, everybody here decided to not do other stuff tonight to see you.
Merlin: They want to see you do well.
Merlin: Remember that they want to see you do well.
Merlin: I don't want to make worse pressure by saying that, but I think that it helps a lot to remember, hey, don't make this about you.
Merlin: Make this about them.
Merlin: And remember why they came to see you.
John: Yeah, right.
John: And you can tell in a room like that, there are some people in here, I'm not going to say 5% or 50%, where this is awkward for them to be in.
John: They are sitting in the chair like touching somebody next to them or whatever.
John: You know, like they're not here with like they're watching Carrie.
John: No, but just just it's it.
John: This is an it used to be so natural for us all to be crammed into tiny spaces.
John: Yeah.
John: Watching some ding dong do some thing.
Merlin: Reading the room, deciding how to react based on what they should be reacting to.
Merlin: And like we've, it's, there are people who still don't know how to order coffee.
Merlin: Like that is a skill.
Merlin: No, don't you think it's not a skill to a lot of people?
Merlin: And at the same time, a thing I wrote out, wrote down six minutes ago that I'll just mention now, also more and more, if somebody is into it, like they want to be part of the show.
Merlin: And that, those are more than ever people you got to watch out for.
Merlin: If you have a mostly silent audience, except for one guy who regards himself as funny, like that can really become difficult nowadays.
John: Yeah, I hosted a trivia night at my daughter's school for parents.
Merlin: Oh, that's cool.
Merlin: For like money raising?
John: It was like a thank you to the parents.
John: They were very specific.
John: Like every year we do an auction.
John: Nobody likes auctions.
John: So this year we're just going to have a big game night in the gym.
John: We're going to have giant Jenga and a ping pong table.
John: And then John Roderick is going to host a big trivia game at the end.
John: and it's just to bring us all together no money involved okay that's cool and and you know it's like a large auditorium full of people standing around tables in trivia teams and i wrote a bunch of trivia um like a like a pub quiz kind of thing like a pub quiz the first the first round was eight questions of like uh gen z how well do you know gen z
Merlin: type of questions except that's funny that's so funny full of buzzfeed articles about like what does skibbity riz mean so you've got so but then the audience though is i'm projecting here but i'm guessing it's some millenniums but a lot of gen x
John: I went around the room because I had a set of questions about Millenniums and Gen X. Yeah.
John: And so I tried to not do the skibbity-riz questions too badly.
John: That would be so cringe.
John: It would.
John: I went a little deeper and was like, what percentage of Gen Z owns smartphones?
John: Is it 64%, 82%, 79%, or 94%?
John: And then everybody scribbles, scribbles, scribbles.
John: Answer?
John: 94% of Gen Z has cell phones.
John: Can you believe it?
John: Am I right?
John: Can you believe it?
John: Wow.
John: And everybody's like, oh, no.
John: I'm like, yes, that is a tragic question.
John: So there was a lot of that.
John: When I said, how many of you are millenniums?
John: Two parents raised their hands.
John: And I said, come on, come on, come on.
John: What?
John: Because one of my questions was, name every cusp term that millennials have invented to find a way to, like, put themselves out of the millennial generation.
John: Name every cusp term, like, Xennial, Xennial, Xennial, Xennial.
John: There's all the people that want to be, that are demographically a millennial, but really want to identify with a different culture on either side.
John: There are nine different terms I could find.
Merlin: I am just, in passing, I was utterly unaware of this.
Merlin: I do know that especially, I don't like to make, now this is going to seem real ironical, but I do get the feeling that younger than Gen X people, especially younger than millennium people, do obsess with
Merlin: about generational things in a way that I know I did not.
Merlin: Well, we didn't because it- And the fine distinctions and like what it all means.
Merlin: And to me, it's like astrology.
John: Well, and I think people will think that we were like Gen X the whole time.
John: But, yeah, none of this generational obsession really existed when we were in our 20s.
John: And also, when it did, it was boomers yelling at their parents.
John: Like this whole stereotype of us, like nobody paying any attention to us absolutely was true and still is because now it's millennials yelling at their parents and we have to get mentioned, I guess, just to fill in the 20 year gap.
John: But I looked around the room and I was like, you're all generation X. I don't believe this for a second.
John: And then I noticed.
John: oh my god they are yeah and uh and you know several of them were listening to wyndham hill compilations on their ipod at the time but you know gen x includes people that are 10 years younger than me i guess even as as as young as 12 years young i think i was at one time i i don't know and i honestly don't care i was considered on the cusp at a i know isn't that crazy
Merlin: Yeah, it's just strange to me that somebody born theoretically in 1946 is part of the same cohort.
Merlin: And I know, I understand that's the early end, but that was the whole idea of the baby boom, at least that I was aware of, was that men came back, mainly men, came back from fighting overseas, and they had the GI Bill, and they bought houses, and they started having babies, and that that was a large source of new population population.
Merlin: from 46 onward until apparently 1965.
Merlin: Now I don't buy it.
John: I mean, John Flansburg was born in 62, I think.
John: And when we first started seeing those ones that said, oh, Gen X starts in 65, he was like, what?
John: I'm a boomer?
John: And I was like, I don't know, man.
John: Sorry.
John: Don't know what to tell you.
John: I don't make the rules, boss.
John: He was like, what the fuck?
John: I've spent my life hating boomers.
John: And I was like, no, you haven't.
John: You don't hate anybody.
John: But yes, there are 43-year-old people who say I'm Gen X. I think there are 40-year-olds who say I'm a cusp Gen Xer.
Merlin: Do you think it's based on...
Merlin: How can I put this?
Merlin: Do you think that it's based on, sort of like when you take one of those kind of quizzes that used to be popular, like which piece of Kentucky Fried Chicken are you or which golden girl are you?
Merlin: Do you think people go into it kind of wanting to be one or the other?
Merlin: Or specifically, again, not wanting to be a baby boomer?
Merlin: I think it happens a lot.
John: Gen X, anything post Gen X, they really want to relate it to when they got a computer or how important a computer was to them.
John: And there are a lot of those early millennials that didn't have computers because their parents didn't.
Merlin: Right.
John: And then you get into what they call digital natives.
Right.
John: Yeah.
John: But there are millennials who were born in 1981 whose parents had a computer in 1981 and they grew up.
John: But, you know, but they talk about it.
John: One of the one of the terms for the millennials is the Oregon Trail generation.
John: That's the early millennials who grew up playing Oregon Trail instead of having Xboxes or whatever.
John: Anyway, at this event, it's a gym with, you know, more than 100 people in it playing trivia.
John: And there was one mom who really wanted everybody in the room to know she was there.
John: Oh, I see.
John: And there was the Charlie Watts that was like, we know you're here, Keith.
John: But just like really laughing, really woo-hoo, really wanting to like have a one-on-one interaction with me across the gym.
John: Like, John, tell us the thing.
John: John, say it again.
John: And it was, because I did this show two nights after my downtown show, I had a real contrast, a study in contrast between a show that had a woman that wanted to be part of the show
John: The show that I had downtown where really I felt like the audience was like don't pick me Each person in the room was like for sure whatever you do.
John: Don't pick me
John: and and in both instances because of the because of the 25 years i spent standing up there going like well you know the decembris are up next but you've still got like six more songs from us so you can either yeah sit there uh with your you know trying to don't touch the orangina like you're pretending to read kafka or you can pay attention to the show
John: I'll drool back to the trial.
John: And so in both, in both shows, I can't die.
John: Like I'm, I'm, I'm an onstage immortal because I can't, you cannot make me uncomfortable.
Merlin: You cannot onstage immortal.
John: Yeah.
John: Like,
John: And that is a good feeling, but it doesn't mean that shows are easy.
John: Like the show that I was playing downtown, like I'm looking at my guitar like I've never seen one before.
John: I'm doing these songs I haven't played in years.
Merlin: I'm like, um... So I'm a little confused about which is which.
Merlin: Downtown is different from the 100 people, right?
Merlin: Yeah.
John: No, 100 people is it's in the Pike Place market, which.
Merlin: So, but like everybody there is there to see John Roderick from the thing.
Merlin: Like whatever, like, and like, but you.
John: But then I have a standard.
John: Okay.
John: That I want my, I want my own performance to meet.
Merlin: Well, and you expect a lot out of an audience, which I think is really, I think it's healthy.
John: Yeah.
John: And, and, and it's a, you know, like it really is, we're all in this basement together.
John: If there's a, if, if there's a tsunami, we're too high up, it's not going to hit us.
John: But if there's a sudden catastrophic earthquake, you know, we're going to be, um, all in this to getting out of this building together, right?
John: This is, we're a group now, but I want it to be, I want it to be good.
John: I want to be good.
John: And so that's the pressure on me.
John: It's not any kind of like, am I entertaining?
John: I know that.
John: But what I want to be is good.
John: And there's a difference between, and a lot of people will confuse that.
John: They're like, you were so entertaining.
John: And I'm like, yeah, but I'm judging myself on whether I was good.
John: I think there's plenty of room.
Merlin: For me, there's plenty of room to feel bad about both.
Merlin: Because honestly, I don't like to say this too often, but...
Merlin: I am capable of enjoying things I have made.
Merlin: There are people who claim to hate everything they make, which I think seems like a peculiar way to go through life.
Merlin: But I know when something was good or put in a different parlance.
Merlin: I know what should have landed.
Merlin: Like I, that was really funny.
Merlin: a smart person should laugh at that or like, or like, you know what I mean?
Merlin: Like sometimes there's a phrase I've used also people bringing their own jokes where like people were like, wait, what are you amused about right now?
Merlin: Like I'm kind of confused, but like, but in any case you just keep going forward because whatever's in the show is in the show.
John: That's right.
John: You got to use it.
John: You know what I'm saying?
John: Whatever's in the show is in the show.
John: And as long as you walk out on stage going, I mean, what's the absolute worst that can happen?
John: People start screaming, like hurling rage at you.
John: And even then, I can turn a room full of people raging at me into some kind of show for the people in the room who aren't raging at me, at the very least.
John: but a lot of it is a lot of it is close talking uh-huh get on the mic and you're like listen everybody we're in this room and i am the only one with a microphone so right there i think we've established how this dynamic is gonna go like this i can talk as loud as i want but what if i don't talk loudly at all
John: You're stuck.
Merlin: I kind of feel like I'm in trouble when you talk like that.
Merlin: A little bit.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: I feel a little bit like I'm not sure what I've done, but I think you know.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: And this is why whenever you text somebody, you should always begin by saying you are not in trouble.
Merlin: Like in that instance, maybe somebody in the audience thought they were in trouble.
John: Well, and, you know, last night at dinner, we're sitting talking and my daughter said, Daddy, I think I'm ready for a lecture later.
John: Not right now, but, you know, and her mom went, what?
John: And she said, well, I mean, I just, I feel like, I feel like I have a daddy lecture coming.
John: And her mom said, what?
John: And I knew what she was saying.
John: She just wanted me to sit her down and talk to her in this voice about something really weird.
Merlin: Is this something you bond over?
Merlin: Is this a version of Pater Familia's ASMR?
No.
John: I think what it is is that she has a question about something in life that's bigger than...
John: just your average over the dinner.
John: Well, she came to the right father.
John: That's right.
John: And so over the course of her life, she's had enough instances where she's like, daddy, why do people, uh, you know, why do people fight wars?
John: And I'm like, well, sit down, sweetie.
John: And let me just talk to you in this voice for, for really about states rights.
John: You know what I want you to know?
John: First of all, human beings, uh,
John: So it's happened enough in her life.
Merlin: Ask them where the battle happened, and notice whether they said the name of a city or the name of a river.
Merlin: That will tell you a lot about their understanding of states' rights.
John: So now, this is the first time it's ever happened, but now she, in the course of yesterday or whatever, on her teenage emotional rollercoaster, she was like, you know, I think right now what I really need is him telling me something in a...
John: in a low voice about where, you know, he's sitting on the bed and I'm sitting at my desk.
Merlin: There's a shrink out there, probably a Gen Z shrink who's someday going to make a lot of money off your kid.
Merlin: And how does that make you feel?
John: So how about if I talk to you?
John: Can I live stream this?
John: Well, what's incredible is that our children have access to, and they will for the rest of their lives,
John: The ability to hear us talk more or less to them.
Merlin: This comes up a lot.
John: Like your kid at 85 years old can turn you on and listen to you for hours.
Merlin: It's not like there's one cassette recording of grandma talking about how much better the Persimmons used to be.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: One of those like accidental folk history things where you're like, oh, here's grandpa making fun of somebody and we have three seconds.
Merlin: You're saying in this instance, what are we on right now?
Merlin: This is just one program you're on.
Merlin: This is episode 538.
Merlin: We generally record for around an hour.
Merlin: There's at least probably 700 hours of us.
John: absolutely and another another 700 hours of me talking to ken and another 700 hours of uh night careful careful you know me just talking into a microphone okay but but you're gonna talk about dan being late because of his prescription lunch well and then dan and friendly gotta go pick up his lunch
John: I mean, this is the terrible thing about AI.
Merlin: You got Star Trek and the war show too.
John: Yeah.
John: AI is going to calculate for it too, right?
John: It's going to say talking to Dan is like talking to this kind of, because Dan says this many words in an hour.
John: So this is what it's like to talk to somebody.
John: who says moon landing more than once in a month.
John: And then you have never said moon landing, as far as I know.
John: The AI is going to notice that, though, and it'll become important.
John: Yeah, the AI is going to say, this guy never says moon landing.
John: This guy never has a doctor's appointment.
John: This guy always has a doctor's appointment.
John: Imposter detected, imposter detected.
John: you know and this guy over here seems to know a lot about he knows there's no soup yeah yeah yeah and then on this one you're just and so the ai is going to be able to to talk to our own children with our own voices saying what we say and and you're right i have i have 10 micro cassettes of my dad going
John: I'd just like to bring your attention to exhibit B. And then there's 20 minutes of people talking.
John: You just have like hours of him talking about Robert's Rules of Order.
John: Or just, you know, he's like, take a note.
John: The railroad in the party of the first part is going to go with the... And none of it is like, John, I have some things to tell you about life.
John: John, you're a special little guy.
John: Hey, John, listen, you're too young to know this now, but one day I'm going to tell you about all the gold I buried under the fireplace.
John: Oh, you're still hoping.
John: And so who knows how much my daughter is at some point in her life going to go, oh, God, I'm so anxious right now, and this has been a terrible week, and I'd just like to hear my dad talk.
John: for 20 minutes about nothing or talk about time pieces or whatever it is.
John: I just want to hear his voice.
Merlin: Or you could talk about like that episode with Data and his cat.
John: people love that episode or she might be able to you know to say uh siri uh give me one half hour of my dad talking about the moon landing and sir will be like here's roderick talking about the moon i'm sorry i can't find it here's some results from the web well no and then it'll start with me going yeah in the future in the future yeah the moon landing wasn't fake like right now i can't help because your iphone's not in the room but that's a separate issue
John: that's terrifying but but it's also that no it's real that's not it's not optional john no no no and and and it's real 94 of gen z have smartphones
John: 94%.
John: Oh, and this is a crazy thing.
John: As I thought, as I chewed on that, I think at any earlier point in our lives, we would have assumed that the 6% that don't would have been too poor.
John: I was going to say economical, right?
John: But I think it's the opposite.
Merlin: I think the 6% that don't have... Because all the programming dads and moms are like, no way is my kid getting a phone.
Merlin: That's what you hear.
Merlin: You hear people say that all the time.
John: The very richest kids probably don't have cell phones.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah, they get Waldorf phones.
John: It's made out of half a block.
John: Or they have somebody in a morning coat walking behind them, and they're like, Jeeves, give me 30 minutes of John Roderick talking about the moon landing.
John: Jeeves is like, yes.
John: His nice name is like Jeeves.
Merlin: His name is Mrs. Montessori.
Merlin: That's no good.
Merlin: You can't use the phone.
Merlin: You need to stop and look up or you're talking to me.
Merlin: No, you're talking to this block.
Merlin: That's no good.
Merlin: You can't do that, boss.
John: But it's been nice to be back on stage.
John: God, what a weird thing to have been such a big part.
John: It does feel different though, huh?
John: It does.
John: Well, you know, you and I, how many shows have we been to?
John: 538.
Merlin: Oh, like rock shows?
Merlin: You don't really go to rock shows, but I've been to many of your shows.
Merlin: I've been to at least, I've been to probably, I've been to 9 to 26 of your shows.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, just rock shows.
John: Yeah.
John: Right?
John: I mean, you and I have been in many theaters.
Merlin: Well, you know, the whole reason we first met is, well, it wasn't that you sought me out.
Merlin: You know, I'm just saying.
Yeah.
John: Well, I did because I was playing a show in Oakland and there were like five crazy kids dancing their fucking heads off.
Merlin: Scott Miller was there in a motorcycle home and I remember it very well.
Merlin: And then he had on my wife on the Bay Bridge.
Merlin: Oh, sure.
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: The thing about Ken Stringfellow, you have to invite him in.
John: Well, yeah, that's right.
John: He'll stand outside and be like, I have lots of interesting stories to tell if you only allow me in across the threshold.
Merlin: Let me freshen your drink.
Merlin: Do you like Clamato?
Merlin: Anyways, yes.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Anyways, lots of shows together.
Merlin: You and I now are the rock shows that we've been to.
Merlin: We've been to comedy things that you and I were both in.
Merlin: Have we ever been to a rock show where you weren't playing?
Merlin: Sure.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Saw you argue with John Vanderslice one time.
Merlin: And we've been to, yeah, we've probably been to a few, but not a lot.
Merlin: A Bueller show, maybe.
Merlin: Yeah, maybe.
Merlin: Yeah, probably at that bar I like.
Merlin: Pop.
Merlin: Well, that's right.
Merlin: The old bar.
Merlin: No, the one next to the Swedish American Club.
John: Yeah, the Flurbaderb.
Merlin: Remember that place with the tiny, tiny green room that was really like an office?
Merlin: What's it called?
Merlin: Café du Nord.
John: Café du Nord.
Merlin: But also the bottom of the hill.
Merlin: We were at the bottom of the hill a lot together.
Merlin: So much.
Merlin: No matter where you stand, you're in someone's way.
John: It's the bottom of the hill promise.
John: You and Madeline used to go to rock shows all the time.
Merlin: All the time.
Merlin: It was a huge part of your lives.
Merlin: And it was a huge part of mine.
Merlin: No, we'd plan it out.
Merlin: Like we knew the way some people play video games.
Merlin: Like we knew what we were doing.
Merlin: Like we were going places and we're going to go see, um, like we're going to see Mark Eitzel in the mission.
Merlin: So like, let's get a burrito at this place or the flaming lips movie is showing at this place.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: Like we were just always going somewhere.
Merlin: Yeah, you really were.
Merlin: I miss it, but I don't miss it.
Merlin: I mean, I, I mean, it was great at the time, but like, I couldn't do that.
Merlin: I wouldn't want to do that now.
Merlin: also people just don't know how to be at rock show people don't know how to be in public anymore i wonder i you know i wonder if i were 24
John: You know, when we were 24, there wasn't anything to fucking do if you stayed home.
John: 24, I was 1990?
Merlin: For me?
John: You were 24.
John: Is that right?
John: 24.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: So, like, for me, that would be, like, young, fresh fellows at the student union at FSU.
Merlin: Young, fresh fellows before.
Merlin: Or a lot of Still There's Hope.
Merlin: I can't tell.
Merlin: Was Jason acting like he doesn't know what Still There Is Hope Is?
Merlin: He would know that song, right?
Merlin: Jason Finn?
Merlin: I was telling Jason that you think you got a weird drum set.
Merlin: Remember that guy?
Merlin: The guy with the suit?
Merlin: I love that song.
Merlin: It's got Kurt Block in it.
Merlin: I met him once.
Merlin: He introduced me to him.
Merlin: I almost passed out.
John: Jason's yanking your chain about 80% of the time.
John: But some of it's reflexive yanking of your chain.
John: He's just yanking it.
John: He's a reflexive yanker.
John: He sees a chain, he yanks it.
John: That's true.
John: That's just where he's coming from.
Merlin: I think if he didn't need help with his computer, I don't think he'd call me at all.
John: no that's not true he loves you but you know i love him some things he wants to tell you he's got some he's got some issues that he wants to uh bring up with you you were 24 a little bit later i was 24 in 1992. okay so that would have been you were you were working at the at the at the bus stop or whatever it's called right no at that point i was working at a pizza parlor
Merlin: Just real quick, so you stopped drinking in 89?
John: No, in, sorry, 1994.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Oh, so you were, oh, when were you working?
Merlin: December of 94.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: All right.
Merlin: And when was the newsstand?
John: So the newsstand I started, I was already sober and I started doing that in 1997, let's say.
Merlin: Is that when there was a dance party at the Greyhound station?
Merlin: Is that around the same time?
John: No, I was still a really screwed up dance party at the bus station.
John: That was earlier night.
John: No, no, no.
John: After I got sober, it took me a year to get on my feet.
John: Oh, and this is where you get a toothbrush and live in a van, right?
John: Yeah, I was sober then.
John: And you got a toothbrush and keys.
John: You were excited.
John: Yeah, I had a toothbrush and a key.
John: A key, yeah.
Yeah.
John: And it was a key to a minivan.
Merlin: With an electric extension cord going to it.
John: That's right.
John: That's right.
John: You remember everything.
Merlin: Well, I remember the stuff I care about.
John: But for sure there wasn't anything else to do as far as I knew.
John: Then go look at people that were making art of some kind or another and then go to a second location with somebody and try and make art yourself.
John: Those were the only things.
John: You feel like there's more options now?
John: Well, now you don't have to go because there's just so much more entertainment.
Merlin: I'm trying to avoid saying gatekeeping because I really don't want to get in the habit of saying that too much.
Merlin: But we've talked before about the ability to the phrase I always use because I think it applies to more things is the ability to publish independently.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: There's no guarantee that you'll have success or make money or anything.
Merlin: But just the ability to publish independently is still a huge deal.
Merlin: It should be a huge deal to everybody.
Merlin: But, like, in that instance, like, if you wanted to play at a club, like, we talked about this in our backyard, backdoor pilot, about, like, wasn't there a point in Seattle where it was, like, L.A., where you, like, had to pay to be places?
Merlin: Or, like, you had to, like, the whole place, they got all the bar, you got 50 bucks, you come on at 11.
Merlin: Like, there's always been a kind of...
Merlin: kind of gatekeeping and I just don't think there's as much of that now and then on top of it all you could just stay home and watch a streaming service
John: Well, in that sense, there's no gatekeeping, right?
John: Because you can have a podcast that has two people listening to it, but you still have a podcast.
Merlin: That's why I say publish independently.
Merlin: Whereas there was absolutely a time where the whole thing was like, are you going to be signed and all that kind of stuff?
Merlin: Or you get a book contract or something.
Merlin: And now it's like, well, for what?
Merlin: What could they offer me that's better than doing it all myself?
John: I was telling this story not very long ago because somebody asked me,
John: Back in 1998... Oh, it was a musician who's playing with me in this upcoming series of shows I'm doing.
John: And they had been learning Long Winter songs.
John: And they said... It's somebody who works for Squires.
John: Yeah.
John: When I listen to the Western State Hurricanes record, every song has 11 chords in it.
John: Every song has everything in it.
John: And then the early Long Winter songs...
Merlin: have like nine parts the song scared straight has at least three non-repeating parts yeah could have been choruses in a different song and the fact that it's like i say about not too soon by by the throwing muses it's it's whoops all hooks that songs it's all hooks and and at least in the case like in throwing muses ditto for you every every measure is a load-bearing wall of the song every every detail tells you know washington's on the one
John: But he said, then you've got Commander Thinks Aloud.
Merlin: Which is literally three chords.
John: Cinnamon, and they're all just three chords.
John: And he said, what was that transformation?
John: Because in Western State Hurricanes, there was no song that had fewer than seven chords.
John: And I said, you know what happened?
John: I might have told you this story.
John: When I was in the Hurricanes, I remember looking out because that was the first band that really started to get 500 people in a room.
John: The Bunn family players, my band before, had 200 people in a room, 250 people.
Merlin: And I remember... That sounds like... I've never heard a note from the Bum family players, but everything you've described about makes them sound like... Well, let's just say the obvious thing.
Merlin: You were deliberately pretty confrontational and difficult.
Merlin: And our songs have five different... Were you guys any good?
Merlin: Was it difficult as in... When Bake and Ray really... We were okay.
Merlin: We weren't that good or tight.
Merlin: But we loved doing...
Merlin: I was listening to a Marillion record yesterday, and I was remembering that.
Merlin: Oh, Marillion.
Merlin: I would put lines in songs that were just quotes of, like, shuttled in the safety of a pseudo-silk kimono wearing bracelets of smoke.
Merlin: Like, adding little lines to songs that one person would get.
Merlin: Like, that was my triple drip.
Merlin: Cream dream was the ability to do that or then go like we just quoted 16 bars of Detroit Rock City And that's gonna be funny to somebody we did the entire breakdown with the twin guitar solo Like that's what we that's what we lived for and but there because people didn't have that much else to do They come out and CSK play a blooster cult cover or whatever, you know when we all had the same kind of narrow Yes, we all grew up on 98 rock were similar
Merlin: Yeah, yeah the bun family players had a fretless bass player No, but like like like a Pino Palladino like a full-on like like Because you can play that and make it sound like a normal bass kind of but some people really love to get into the Jocko Pistorius of it all
John: No, he was great at making it sound like a rock bass, except every... He didn't have another one?
Merlin: He didn't have a Rick he could use for the night?
John: No, he never did.
John: Every bass note just had that little bit of vibrato that was not just normal vibrato.
John: It was like in and out of tune vibrato.
John: Like...
John: and uh every song had at least three time signatures sometimes more than five sure and i remember being on stage watching an odd it was the first time i'd ever seen it an audience responding to my music by starting to move as a group like they started to bounce and i looked out and i was like this is so thrilling look at them go like they're they're starting to unconsciously move as a group
John: but even as i was on stage i looked out and i said but in in uh 16 bars there's going to be a time signature change and it's gonna it's gonna kill it it's gonna murder that and the time signature change came and the audience stopped moving because they couldn't follow where it had gone
John: And so when the Western State Hurricanes came, I took out time signature changes and everything was pretty straight.
John: You still had like tempo changes and changes in feel.
John: And there were different time signatures.
John: There were songs in three and songs in five, but they weren't going to change in the middle.
John: But you weren't being cute.
John: You weren't doing like a 9-8 thing.
John: And then as the hurricanes turned into the long winters, I was like, look, all these different parts, they're just confusing people.
John: People want like a song that's three and a half minutes long that has three choruses and a bridge.
John: And so I started to try to do that.
John: Yeah.
John: And as I moved into that, then I was like- Pandering, you mean.
Merlin: Well, well, I'm just kidding.
Merlin: I love your three chord songs.
Merlin: A one, five, four song.
Merlin: Are you kidding me?
John: And I still do the thing where I go one, five, four, one, which throws a lot of musicians from Austin.
Merlin: You can do so, especially if you're doing the special C with a G. There's some, you think, this fall, I don't know if I survive.
John: Oh, the scene with the G fucked me over the other night.
Merlin: What song is that?
Merlin: Are you saying I'm still alive?
Merlin: Is it your kisses I'm feeling?
Merlin: What song is that?
Merlin: It'll be a breeze.
Merlin: It'll be a breeze.
Merlin: It'll be a breeze.
Merlin: That is, on the face of it, a very simple three-chord-ish song.
Merlin: But the way you have arranged that, you're doing very interesting things with the three-chord.
Merlin: It's got a stuttery kind of feel to it.
Merlin: I'm not familiar with it, but I feel like I remember that.
Merlin: I love that song so much.
John: I love that record.
John: All of those changes in songwriting came as a result of looking out from the stage at a room full of people.
Merlin: Knowing when the barometer just drops.
John: Oh my God, I'm about to hurt them so badly by singing.
Merlin: I just sent you a Bacon Ray song that is a deliberately over-the-top prog rock parody, and it's called Colonel Fusion.
Merlin: And it's supposed to be, I don't even know exactly what we're parodying.
Merlin: It's not Genesis, or a little like ELP.
Merlin: But there's one part where it's just so ponderous, and it's got flanger.
Merlin: And then it goes into this part where both guitars go... And it's just like, oh, who is this for, sweetheart?
Merlin: Oh, honey.
Merlin: Who's it for?
Merlin: Please tell Colonel Fusion.
Merlin: It's for the people in the room.
Merlin: That's who it's for.
Merlin: It's about misreading the word confusion and thinking it said Colonel Fusion.
Merlin: And then we wrote a song about somebody we made up called Colonel Fusion and how there's a mutiny on some kind of a vessel, even though he's a colonel.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: Please tell Colonel Fusion that he's wanted on the bridge.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
John: It's a generation of people that grew up listening to Wings and Emerson, Lake and Pop.
John: Oh, I know.
John: And the Ramones.
John: There's so many parts.
John: I feel like, talk about gatekeeping.
John: The people that saw that had to literally go pay probably $3 to go through a gate to get in there to see you, right?
John: Yeah, they went there to see Denny Lane.
John: They went there to see Linda.
John: The audience were the 300 people that were there to see Bacon Ray on a night.
Merlin: Oh, that.
Merlin: Well, they got, you know what?
Merlin: They might have come to see Paul, but they got a lot of Linda.
Merlin: Woof.
Merlin: Whoa.
Merlin: You've heard those, right?
John: Have you heard those?
John: Yeah, just turn up the Linda channel.
John: Turn the Paul channel down.
Merlin: I feel so bad.
John: She seems like a nice person.
I'm on the run.
John: Well, she seems, you know, she's gone to the great beyond.
Merlin: Do you even notice this bass got louder and louder over the years?
Merlin: Did you ever notice?
Merlin: Well, it's like Michael Stipe's vocals.
Merlin: Oh, by the time you get to silly love songs.
Merlin: Dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum-dum.
John: God, I love that song.
John: Billy Corgan, too.
John: Billy Corgan's vocals kept going up and up, and the band kept getting worse and worse.
Merlin: They should have stopped at Sheila and the Gig.
Merlin: You've done it.
Merlin: That's as good as you guys are going to get.
Merlin: Stop right there.
Merlin: Boy, I despise them.
Merlin: I despise the whole idea of them.
Merlin: I like that one record.
Merlin: I like the Sheila and the Gig group.
Merlin: No, no, I'm sorry.
Merlin: That's Polly Harvey.
Merlin: What's the one with... Simon's Dream?
Merlin: Is that the one you like?
Merlin: No, you know the one, the first one when they were like a good band.
John: Yeah, they were a good band then.
Merlin: For a while, but then they're always scowling, and you're like, oh, God.
John: They're scowly.
John: Well, it's the one kid, when he lost his hair, he just became a mean, mean person.
John: Yeah, so didn't he used to wear a shirt that said zero on it?
John: He did.
John: He had a star, I think.
Merlin: That's a lot of fun.
John: And he had an affair with Courtney Love, and that seems like, I don't know.
Merlin: Wow, now he's Miss World.
John: It was the time.
John: It was the time.
John: Sure, sure.
John: Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Merlin: You know, she had a busy social calendar, for sure.
Merlin: Yeah, she had a lot to... I took you off your thing, though.
Merlin: So you're got a hundred... So are we talking about trivia or a hundred weirdos downtown?
Merlin: Where are we?
Merlin: There were both.
Merlin: There was a hundred people listening to my trivia game.
Merlin: Which one did you want to explore more?
Merlin: Because I think you're going places with both.
Merlin: Oh, well... You learned a lot about dads and moms at the school, right?
John: Yeah, but all of this, I think, for me at least, ever since halfway through the pandemic...
John: When I realized, wait, there is no future to staying at home.
John: Although staying at home is great, is awesome.
John: This is something human beings have never confronted before, which is staying at home.
Merlin: I disagree with you, but I understand.
Merlin: The thing I got from you, which I disagree with, but understand, is like, you know, they say ships are safest in harbor.
Merlin: but that's not why we build ships.
Merlin: There you go.
Merlin: Kind of, right?
Merlin: That's nice, I like that.
Merlin: It's easier to stay home, but it's not why they built our ship.
John: Yes, right.
John: And as far as I can tell,
John: Maybe, maybe the 94% of Gen Z that has phones will never go outside.
John: You know, maybe they'll never see the world.
John: Maybe my daughter has a phone outside.
Merlin: My kid use a phone outside all the time.
John: Yeah.
John: To use, they use the phone outside to read reviews of the places they're going that are inside.
John: Like I feel like map programs and Yelp.
John: are the enemies of civilization.
John: You don't want to read a review of a restaurant written by the last person that went to the restaurant.
Merlin: Oh, that's interesting.
Merlin: That's like reading a review of a handjob.
Merlin: Just be grateful.
Merlin: Take the handjob.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Wait, you can turn it off and turn it away?
Merlin: Say, oh no, some people said the noodles were soggy.
Merlin: No handjob for me.
Merlin: Quit reading reviews.
Merlin: Get out there and eat the noodles.
John: We thought that the early days of the Internet, we were like, oh, we're going to crowdsource.
John: That's so great.
John: We're going to eliminate gatekeeping because, oh, it used to be this tyranny of newspaper restaurant reviewers.
John: But now everybody's a genius.
John: Everybody's a reviewer.
John: And then you're like, where are we going to dinner tonight?
Merlin: oh flip flip flip oh this one's got four stars and that one's got 4.1 stars and this one's got 4.2 stars you never leave the house without knowing where you're going is part of the part of the biggest drag again i i i i don't existentially agree but i well i don't personally agree but i existentially agree i think you're totally right and it's like the whole thing with like uh phones versus maps
Merlin: Like, for example, like a map or like I used to always keep a, what's the ones, not like an atlas exactly, but there was one where I had the entire- Oh, the Thomas Guide.
Merlin: I had one that was like a, I think it was a spiral bound name for this.
Merlin: Yeah, Thomas Guide.
Merlin: But like I had a map of everything in Florida in like one book.
Merlin: Like, you know, one of those, like almost like a triptych, but for the whole state.
Merlin: And you could just flip through and for anything you could get-
Merlin: You can at least know if you're on the wrong highway anywhere.
Merlin: And that's really, and believe me, I would not give back my phone for anything now.
Merlin: And yet, the adventure of that was a big part of making us who we are, I think.
Merlin: Yeah, I had a man.
Merlin: When I delivered flowers, when I delivered, oh, damn it, what's the book?
Merlin: I almost had it.
Merlin: It's not almanac.
Merlin: It's just, but I had one of those for, but like when I delivered flowers the summer before college, like I had to route out, like they would say like, okay, well here's, you got a, you're going to have a delivery this morning.
Merlin: Another one late this morning.
Merlin: You know, you got like four runs, right?
Merlin: And you put the plants into the back of the car and you got sandbags to hold them in place.
Merlin: And then we had a big map on the wall where I would have to map out, map out the most efficient.
Merlin: Did I have a phone?
Merlin: I did not.
Merlin: I had a copy of Candy Apple Grey and a very, very large big gulp.
Merlin: And I drove around very irresponsibly fast with no insurance.
Merlin: But I had to plan all that out.
Merlin: And I'm not saying that's a good thing, but I think some of the things that came out of those privations were good, including the conversations you could have before you could look something up.
Merlin: And I argue with people like Syracuse about this because he seems to think the internet's an unallied.
Merlin: No, no, I'm not going to throw him under the bus.
Merlin: But like, we disagree a little bit where I'm like, I like, there's something I miss a little bit about not knowing things, which sounds weird to say, but I like that some things have to remain a mystery for now.
Merlin: And you can feel it when you're in a room with people and everybody's like, why don't you just Google that?
Merlin: And you're like, because the point of what we're doing right now is not about the acquisition of information.
Merlin: It's about us visiting with each other.
Merlin: And I don't,
Merlin: Maybe you don't get this, but I would encourage our listeners to think about it.
Merlin: The next time that you don't know something, notice how quickly you will go to, as they say, look it up.
Merlin: That's not bad.
Merlin: It's not bad.
Merlin: Notice how often you do that.
Merlin: And then if you like...
Merlin: if you really want to lean into it, notice how difficult it can be not to do that.
Merlin: And I think that's the problem for me.
Merlin: For me, the problem is, like, I don't need to know this right now, but I still always stop what I'm doing in the moment to go look something up.
Merlin: I went and found this Bacon Ray track and sent it to you as a text.
Merlin: There's a bunch of things, like, I've written down here, and I've looked some of this up, like, while we're talking.
Merlin: I don't need to know any of that.
Merlin: But, like...
Merlin: I do think... That sounds so dumb to say, because how do you say, I wish I didn't know things?
Merlin: Like, I mean, I wish I didn't know quite so much about the relationship between Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck, which is, like, not a thing I ever sought out, but it's just everywhere, so I end up having to hear about it again.
Merlin: But, like, there was something kind of...
Merlin: interesting and fun about privation.
Merlin: Okay, I'm going to go into old man mode for just this one bit of just this one episode.
Merlin: I talked about Candy Apple Grey.
Merlin: That was the... I don't think I bought that.
Merlin: I think somebody taped it for me.
Merlin: But I did buy, for example, I think I bought Metal Circus.
Merlin: I eventually bought Zen Arcade.
Merlin: But the point is, the classic example for me, and I know you know this story, but trying to decide whether I wanted to buy an REM record.
Merlin: I told you this story, and I'd read about Reckoning, Kurt Loder.
Merlin: I still remember Kurt Loder's review.
Merlin: Moody, but moody, murky, but emotionally winning.
Merlin: REM's murmur, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Merlin: And with this review of Reckoning, I kept hearing about Reckoning, Paz and Job.
Merlin: Everybody talks about Reckoning.
Merlin: The thing is, Reckoning was $8.69.
Merlin: Well, I mean, I was a busboy.
John: And I didn't have a lot of deal.
John: I look back at show posters from the early 90s, and there wasn't a show in town you couldn't see for $5 unless it was Led Zeppelin.
Merlin: But still adjusted for inflation.
Merlin: That's still money.
Merlin: A better example possibly from three or four years earlier was one-on-one by Cheap Trick.
Merlin: I really liked the video for She's Tight.
Merlin: I really liked the video for If You Want My Love.
Merlin: She's nice.
Merlin: She's tight.
Merlin: She's giving me the gold.
Merlin: And I went to Albertson's, thought an Albertson's stir-fried dinner can make this apartment at home.
Merlin: They didn't have Built to Spill records, but they did have one-on-one by Cheap Trick, which is not their best record.
Merlin: But it's a good record, but here's the thing.
Merlin: I spent $8.69 on it.
Merlin: Nice.
Merlin: I had to learn to love that album because I spent $8.69 on it.
John: So, for example... Yeah, and you put it on and you were like, ooh.
Merlin: No, I mean, like, well, it was always... Back in the day, you put the best track, side one, track one.
Merlin: The second best song is usually side two, track one.
Merlin: But, like, I want B-Man.
Merlin: Not the best Cheap Trick song.
Merlin: But the point is, like, I had to deliberate so much over that.
Merlin: I don't miss...
Merlin: $8.69 being a lot of money.
Merlin: I don't miss that at all.
Merlin: I don't miss needing to drive 40 minutes away to be able to buy an album by The Cult.
Merlin: Because they don't have that at Record Bar.
Merlin: I bought the single for She Sells Sanctuary at a record store, Vinyl Fever, 15th and Fletcher in Tampa.
Merlin: But...
Merlin: Bought it on a dubbed bootleg cassette, maxi-single of She Sell Sanctuary, because I loved that song intensely.
Merlin: Another great three-chord song at the time, right?
Merlin: Key of D. I still remember.
Merlin: And I don't miss a lot of that, but I'm not critiquing how anybody does anything, but I would not be...
Merlin: whatever I am today, if I hadn't had to scurry and scuffle and learn and go to the equivalent of the library and get my friend to record this, you know, I'm not going to buy a Cocteau Twins record.
Merlin: Please record me the Pink Opaque.
Merlin: And on the other side, put Fisherman's Blues by Waterboys.
Merlin: Like...
Merlin: That's how I did everything.
Merlin: And it was all difficult.
Merlin: And I don't wish that upon anybody, but I would not be the weirdo who's obsessed with music like I am today if I hadn't first had the privations of needing to learn, are the chances good for this being something that I want?
Merlin: I could not afford, this is the problem with REM, I could not afford albums just to look fashionable.
Merlin: I couldn't afford $40 jeans, let alone a record that was big on pads and job.
Merlin: And my old, all my friends made fun of me.
Merlin: They like, you just bought, I think I also bought on the same day.
Merlin: I bought reckoning into the gap by Thompson twins and one of the secret policemen soundtrack albums and in vinyl fever in Tampa.
Merlin: And my friends made fun of me because we did that thing.
Merlin: You hate what I do with your albums where I like, I go track, track, track, listen to a few seconds.
Merlin: And they're like, Merle, you just bought a country album and they thought it was the foot.
Merlin: They're like, just, just put on into the gap.
Merlin: You know, just take this off.
Merlin: This is ridiculous.
Merlin: Anyway, all I'm saying is like, I think there's something disingenuous about trying to throw your whole history away in order to seem up to date.
Merlin: And so on the one hand, just to be extremely clear for the nth time, I'm not criticizing anybody.
Merlin: I understand people don't listen to albums the way that I listen to albums.
Merlin: Like right now, before we started talking, I'm currently downloading all of my stuff from Apple Music because I'm losing my goddamn mind with this app.
Merlin: I'm going to put everything somewhere that I trust.
Merlin: And I've just been through the malfeasance and non-feasance of Apple.
Merlin: I can't tell you how many demos by you and the Rens I just can't put my hand to anymore.
Merlin: And I've had it.
Merlin: I'm downloading all of it.
Merlin: I'm putting it on a big hard drive in the sky.
Merlin: But it makes me realize I look...
Merlin: in the interest of efficiency, I say, show me everything that's... I made a smart playlist, right?
Merlin: Of, like, everything that's not downloaded that's eligible, sort by plays.
Merlin: And, like, once you take out Lullabies and Toy Story, I mean, it is a lot of stuff, like you guys and Foo Fighters and stuff like that.
Merlin: And, like...
Merlin: When I listen to a record, if I put on Hop Along, I listen to the record all the way through because that's how I listen to music.
Merlin: Yesterday, I listened to Glass Houses all the way through.
Merlin: I still know every single word to... You may be right.
Merlin: I still know every single syllable of that.
Merlin: So it's difficult for me to feel ingenuous about throwing all that away to say, oh, that's cool.
Merlin: Just go out and sample.
Merlin: Just go decide whether based on...
Merlin: based on one playlist and a spare spare five minutes whether or not you could be interested in dag nasty it's like whoa whoa whoa whoa like that's not how you do like you need to like spend time with these things like in the case of the wrens like you need to listen to meadowlands three or four times at least at least but that's not or see them live one
Merlin: Well, yeah.
Merlin: I mean, boy, that Charles.
Merlin: You ever seen Charles play live?
Merlin: You ever seen him play live?
Merlin: Are you kidding?
Merlin: God, that guy can play guitar like ringing a bell.
John: That's how I met those guys.
John: I had a show and these guys were coming from somewhere to play the show.
John: They're so nice and they're so dorky and sweet.
John: Who are these dorks?
John: Jerry.
John: Jerry's so sweet.
John: I was reading a thing by Neil deGrasse Tyson.
John: Thank you for listening.
Merlin: Oh, come on.
Merlin: Why you got to do that to me?
Merlin: Neil deGrasse Tyson.
John: Somebody that I'm not going to sit and watch everything that he's ever done.
John: But he said, and this was pertinent to a conversation I was having with my kid who didn't want to learn algebra.
John: Why do I have to learn algebra?
John: Blah, blah, blah.
John: Every kid in the world has ever asked it.
John: And Neil deGrasse Tyson had this little thing that I found where he said, it's not about algebra.
John: You're not learning algebra for algebra.
John: You're never going to use algebra.
John: You're absolutely right.
John: But learning algebra...
John: changes your brain.
John: And the way that it changes your brain to learn algebra.
John: Oh, that's such a great way to put it, John.
John: Yeah, it'll save, it will come up again and again the rest of your life.
Merlin: Because you're not memorizing facts about maths.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: That's not what it is.
Merlin: It seems like you're memorizing facts about history.
Merlin: It seems like you're memorizing facts about biology.
Merlin: But you're really not.
Merlin: You're learning how to learn.
Merlin: You just don't know it yet.
John: And that, every time I pick up my phone,
John: to say like, wait a minute, who played bass on the Captain and Tennille record?
John: And I'm looking it up.
John: And then I go, knowing this, knowing this will help me how?
John: Like knowing this, although I really want to know it right now.
Merlin: You're super involved for a minute in something.
Merlin: Pure dopamine burst of disappearing as an ADHD person, ADHD inflicted person.
Merlin: I know it's fun to disappear into something for a minute.
Merlin: That's part of what it is.
Merlin: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Merlin: You don't have a care in the world when you're looking up the captain and the captain's.
Merlin: I call him Daryl Dragon.
Merlin: I would have gone with Daryl Dragon.
John: It's a very cool.
John: Well, Daryl, you know, he's probably playing the bass on the on the low ends of the keyboard.
John: But but that's the thing.
John: It is entertainment.
John: We're not looking things.
John: We're looking a diversion.
John: Well, but we're telling ourselves that it's information.
John: We're telling ourselves that it's science, that we need this information and that it's smart and it's filling, but it's not.
John: It's just a way.
John: I mean, it is in the sense that you're not passively consuming.
Merlin: I'm not going to push back on this one.
Merlin: I agree with you.
Merlin: Well, can I maybe give a little bit of sauce for that, Taco?
Merlin: Is one always aware of why we're really doing this?
Merlin: There you go.
Merlin: See?
Merlin: So, like, the thing is, you could say, well, like, I always run fast because I don't want to get caught in a fire.
Merlin: But, like, if you're trying to run fast during a Catholic wedding, like, that's not the same thing.
Merlin: And, like, the compulsion to need to know something right now, too, if you like, in David Allen terms, to close that loop, like, it's like you can't stand, one can't stand the uncertainty of not knowing.
Merlin: It feels weird not to know anymore.
Merlin: Mm-hmm.
Merlin: I told you one time, for some reason, one time, it must have been high school or college, I could not remember who played Lucy on Dallas.
Merlin: And, of course, Charlene Tilton.
Merlin: I had no way to look that up.
Merlin: And understand, I have so many almanacs.
Merlin: For music stuff, I got Trouser Press.
Merlin: But that was unfindable.
Merlin: Well, it certainly wasn't anything I could find.
Merlin: Now, I might need a reference librarian.
Merlin: There wasn't a big book of who was on Dallas.
John: Right.
John: Right.
Merlin: But like that just became part of like.
John: Tying this back in, what is, just like learning algebra, it trains your brain for other things.
John: What is the value to our brains to not know?
John: How much is always satisfying that desire, actually training our brains to be different and less capable of not, you know, in some ways, is it an advantage?
Right.
John: Right.
John: Or is it actually... Is it creating habits that then have knock-on effects to other things?
Merlin: Is that a rhetorical question?
Merlin: Because I think there are good answers to that, maybe.
Merlin: For old guys, I think it's not a rhetorical question.
Merlin: Well, one is, you don't have to be a Zen meditator to know that sometimes, like your children, you shouldn't, you mustn't get what you want the second that you want it.
John: That's something... Also, I mean, I'm finding in my own kid a kind of disinterest in...
John: in knowing any of that stuff, in being interested in trivia.
Merlin: Do you feel like that's because it's available?
Merlin: I think it's a calculator phenomenon.
Merlin: Remember, John, you're not always going to have a calculator.
Merlin: You've got to learn algebra.
Merlin: Algebra, actually, I think is pretty good.
Merlin: Geometry is the one where I'm like, I don't know, man.
Merlin: I feel like I learned a lot of geometry I didn't need to know.
Merlin: That was a lot of memorization.
John: The whole premise of Jeopardy
Merlin: is that none of those people know that stuff because they didn't have a pocket calculator that's jeopardy of the future jeopardy of the future uh ken bot will give you 30 seconds to look at your phone yeah exactly go look it up go look it up go quick quick quick quicker quicker you know people with the fastest thumbs still but using it differently it'll all be online james will do his gesture of pushing in that'll all be done with emojis
John: Yeah, but who... I mean, how would anybody learn enough to answer those bizarro questions?
John: And it's why there's a certain kind of person on Jeopardy.
Merlin: But... Oh, God, the Masters Tournament was so fun, this recent one.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: Those people are so amazing.
John: I feel like it's coming up as a lack of interest in travel.
Merlin: Well, you just literally nailed part two of mine, which is... And this is very... I don't have a way to, like, nail this jelly to a wall, but part A is just be aware of
Merlin: Not you, but one.
Merlin: Become aware of the compulsion to need to know whatever it is right now.
Merlin: Do you have any governor, any sorting, shape sorter that tells you whether that's something you need to know right now?
Merlin: Well, it doesn't matter because it doesn't cost me anything.
Merlin: I'll just look up everything.
Merlin: Okay, fine.
Merlin: Whatever, whatever.
Merlin: That's maybe not a great habit to not realize you have.
Merlin: Part two, which you're directly getting to, is not knowing can teach you a lot of shit in life.
Merlin: Not least, not least, I'm going to at least go pull out Trouser Press and try to figure out who the hell Tom Troccoli's dog is.
Merlin: Like, these SST bands, I just, they were on The Blasting Concept.
Merlin: I had no idea who any of these people were, Saccharin Trust.
Merlin: I didn't know who these bands were.
Merlin: You go look them up.
Merlin: But you know what?
Merlin: That may be dumb.
Merlin: I don't need to know who's in Second Trust.
Merlin: I know Greg Ginn's in it and their terrible band.
Merlin: But the point is, me looking them up is how I discovered that there is an album called The Blasting Concept that does have the Minutemen on it.
Merlin: It has these other things.
Merlin: I learned about the Minutemen.
Merlin: I learned about Firehose.
Merlin: I learned about Firehose.
Merlin: I learned about Ed... You learn stuff by learning things that are different from what you thought you needed to know.
Merlin: And that's the liberal arts.
John: That's it.
John: That's the liberal arts.
John: That's right.
John: I mean, every time I've ever seen a whale in the ocean, it was because right before then, I was staring blankly at the sea.
Merlin: Whoa.
Merlin: And if you're not... You weren't trying to find out who Charlene Tilton was.
John: I wasn't.
John: And I wasn't looking for a whale.
John: No.
John: The whale found you.
John: Yeah, that's right.
John: And when I'm riding a ferry boat across Puget Sound now, I look around and every single person's looking at their phone.
John: And they're probably looking up the bass player for Greg Gin's latest band.
Merlin: Wait, wait, wait.
Merlin: Dave Wakeling and Ranking Roger.
Merlin: Which one's the singer?
Merlin: Beep, beep, beep.
Merlin: Hey, you guys.
Merlin: There's a whale.
John: And then there's a whale.
John: And it's like, hey, you weren't watching, man.
Yeah.
John: I wasn't either.
John: I was just staring out the window.
John: I wasn't watching.
John: I was just staring.
John: And that is a thing that, I mean, people may not even believe that whales exist.
John: I'm not sure Dan thinks whales exist.
Merlin: I didn't know narwhals were real until about five, six years ago.
John: Really?
Merlin: You thought it was... My kid's friend said that the novels were real, and I said, oh, Savannah, dear heart.
Merlin: It's just a sailor's myth.
Merlin: It's just a tattoo.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: It's a sailor's myth, like chlamydia.
Merlin: You can't catch chlamydia?
Merlin: I didn't catch chlamydia.
Merlin: Dar!
Merlin: Dar!
Merlin: My gums be bleeding from like a whale.
Merlin: Dar!
Dar!