Ep. 544: "The Hay Bale Stage"
John: hello hi john hi merlin how are you well i have a little bit of a scratchy voice yeah i can tell it because when we start you say berlin berlin hi berlin hi berlin hello berlin i uh i don't you know this is the kind of scratchy voice that boy dan benjamin would cancel the show in a heartbeat okay
John: with a scratchy voice like this i guess we're fortunate we can we'll edit around him for this one okay okay good but i don't know what last night yeah i was like my voice is a little scratchy and then i thought oh no no no no i can't be getting sick i hate getting sick
Merlin: You are, if I may say, and listen, I've known you for at least, I don't know, five, eight years now.
Merlin: You are not a good sick person.
Merlin: You are a pillar of the community in so many ways for so many things.
Merlin: You're always putting it on the line for everybody.
Merlin: But when you get sick, you become like a big baby man.
Right.
Merlin: Well, I just don't.
Merlin: It hits you hard.
Merlin: You're a big man.
Merlin: You get big sick.
John: I get big sick and I don't want anybody to see me when I'm sick.
John: I go into my little dark room and I say, listen, I'm either going to die in here or I'll come out in six to ten days and, you know, you can leave little offerings at the edge of the cave.
Merlin: So you're like a lycanthorpe.
Merlin: I'm a lycanthorpe.
Merlin: You're like poor Professor Lupin who's having a really bad night.
John: But I didn't, I don't, you know, like so many people love getting sick, you know, like most people, I guess, just love it.
Merlin: They don't admit it, but people love getting sick.
John: Yeah, but no, I hate it.
John: And so I was like, I don't want to get sick.
John: But then I woke up this morning and I said, oh, I'm not sick.
John: I just have a scratchy voice.
Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah, but the body knows.
Merlin: My body.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Mine says yes, but the body says no, no, no.
Merlin: Wait, did we both just quote two different?
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Oh, you're doing Whitman.
Merlin: I was doing Canadian Whitman.
Merlin: That's what they call him up there.
Merlin: The ginger.
Merlin: Oh, good old Canadian Whitman.
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: Okay, well, can we talk about this?
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Merlin: And I don't care if we've talked about it before.
Merlin: I'm tired of being told what I've talked about previously, especially by myself.
Merlin: I'm tired of it.
Merlin: I won't do it anymore.
John: I don't even know.
John: I'm not even sure anymore.
John: I feel like every time I start to say something, I'm like, I've either said this 16 times already, and everybody here is nodding patiently because they're like, we know, Dad.
Merlin: You're the only one who understands me, John.
Merlin: Of all this villainous company that I keep, you're the only one who understands whatever's in the show's in the show, even if it's been in the show before or hasn't, if I could say.
John: Yeah, right.
John: I mean, what is your guess?
John: When we do a show, is it...
John: Is it 80% new material?
John: Is it 15% new material?
John: I mean, I can't tell.
John: We never wrote anything down.
Merlin: John, forgive, forgive, forgive my saying.
John: What is new material?
John: What that mean?
John: Yeah.
John: What that mean?
John: What that mean?
John: What that mean?
John: You know, I met a couple of people over the, over the last week.
John: I've had a few conversations.
Merlin: We'll come back to being sick though.
Merlin: Cause I think it's going to help people.
Oh,
John: So you're out and about is another thing.
John: I'm out and about, and I've had a few conversations with strangers where they were like, so what do you do?
John: And I'm like, well, you know, I'm a musician.
John: I'm a band, rock and roll.
John: And they were like, wow, cool.
John: And I'm like, yeah.
John: And they're like, so that's what you do?
John: Well, yeah.
John: I mean, I also have podcasting.
John: And they're like, podcasting?
John: Is that what you do?
John: And I was like, well, yeah.
Merlin: So anyway.
Merlin: I would just want to go into George Harrison mode.
Merlin: And I would just want to be like, what will get me out of this with as little stress as possible?
Merlin: What would you like me to say that I do?
Merlin: Would you like it to be even sillier?
John: Would you like me to say I'm an influencer?
Yeah.
John: I've said I've had to explain or I didn't have to.
John: I could have just, you know, like spilled some stuff on their tie and then run.
John: But I did.
John: They called the podcaster's exit.
John: Whoops.
John: Let me go get a towel for you.
Merlin: You think I'm always by the door.
John: uh but i've had to say like well i've got a show where it's me and a guy and we talk and and uh it's uh we started it back when me and a guy talking was still kind of a novel concept and people are like whoa two guys talking no way yeah and uh and we've been doing it ever since so um there's an unbroken you know line of consanguinity yeah
John: And the people have gone, huh, okay, what's it called?
John: And I'm like, well, it's kind of got a funny name back when you just would name a thing.
John: And they're like, and it's about, and I'm like, well, don't ask what it's about.
John: But anyway, there's a very real possibility.
Merlin: that somebody i met over the last three days has gone home and is like i'm going to give this show a try and then here we are they're listening right now going what am i but they might be pumped because they could maybe they could tell something about you hello single new listener um and uh i'm sorry we're losing you as always and when i say i'm sorry i'm not that sorry but i'm kind of expected to say that no that's in the show too sorry not sorry
John: When was the last time that you got sick?
Merlin: Well, all I wanted to say about your thing, and this is the part where I think we talked about this before, is, you know, we talked, of course, we talked about one of the most important health issues facing Americans, especially in the Pacific Northwest, is stress bumps.
Merlin: And how I've stipulated that I feel like I get, like all people who get stress bumps, I get fewer of them, mostly, pound for pound, over the years.
Merlin: Yep.
Merlin: You know, as the herpes virus goes back to your spine and just kind of sits there.
Merlin: Mm-hmm.
Merlin: Um, but like, you know, when you're getting a cold sore and, and the way you know, you're getting, obviously if you've got like a, like you feel the thing, but also I just have a sense.
Merlin: I, this is hard to control for, but I feel a sense of like, oh yeah, this is, of course this is a cold sore.
Merlin: You know the feeling, right?
Merlin: And I think it's similar to me with, as it happens for me, it's, you say, scratchy throat.
Merlin: I would call it like a slightly sore, slightly dry throat is almost always my tell that I'm getting some kind of, you know, according to Hoyle, American illness.
Merlin: Other people, you know, you get tired, you get headaches, you get the trots or something.
Merlin: In my case, it's almost always preceded by a sore throat.
John: Really?
John: You know, I don't know.
John: I'm not conscious of any tells.
John: I feel like my first tell is a tingling on the lip.
Merlin: At which point I race to... I know, but as soon as you fear the tingle, like, isn't there... You don't get that?
Merlin: I get this thing where it's like this sense of like, oh, of course I'm about to be robbed in an alley.
Merlin: That feeling of like, oh, this thing is happening.
John: No, I mean, I do connect it to feeling run down.
John: Oh, hell yeah.
John: But like this scratchy voice thing that I have right now, I never have that.
John: I don't know where this is coming from.
John: I just sang.
John: I just had a rock show on Friday.
Merlin: I was going to surprise you.
Merlin: You know, we get KEXP now, and it's what we listen to in the car.
John: Oh, fun.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah, so we listened to KXP in the car, and as it happened, the other two had been driving around earlier that day, and Madeline said, it wasn't John in the morning, boy, I like him.
Merlin: He seems so nice.
Merlin: I think I met him once.
Merlin: Isn't he nice?
John: You and he would be really pretty good buds if you lived up here.
Merlin: Yeah, but you can just tell he's a good guy.
Merlin: But anyhow, Madeline's like, well, first of all,
Merlin: I heard that they played whoever, not John, not in the morning, played a Long Winters song, the song The Commander Thinks Aloud, and said that the Long Winters were playing a show that day, is what they heard on the radio in San Francisco coming from Seattle.
Merlin: So you did.
Merlin: So now it blew my surprise.
Merlin: It's not as exciting now.
Merlin: And that's why when you dropped your pick and you ordered somebody else to pick it up, I'm guessing Mike Squires, when you ordered someone else in the band to pick up your pick because you couldn't be fucked to do it, that was rehearsing for this show probably, right?
John: For the big show, that's right.
John: The big show.
John: And it was a show.
John: It was an outdoor festival in the middle of West Seattle, which is one of the big neighborhoods in the city.
John: And they build a big stage in the middle of the street.
John: And there's all the stuff in a street fair.
John: Food booths and suba-da-doobs.
John: Food booths.
John: Finger paintings and people on unicycles and so forth.
John: Of course.
John: And we got asked to play this show.
John: And I did the thing where I had...
John: And every piece of news about it made me have lower expectations.
John: Like, oh, it's at the street.
John: Oh, no, we're playing at 10 o'clock at night?
John: Like, nobody's going to be there at 10 o'clock at night.
Merlin: So the thing was booked, but then as evidence arose or the time passed, there were more and more things that made you think, oh, this isn't... Like, it would be poorly attended or not a big deal?
John: Yeah, or that people are going to leave.
John: You know, they're going to stay for the first song and go, or...
John: They come for the food booths, and then they stay for the lessons from John.
John: Yeah, all the kids are going to go.
John: And so as time went on, I just had gotten more and more inside, just like, this is going to be a humble little event, and it's fine, and just go with God.
John: And so when I got there and saw that it was crammed,
John: it was a big rock show do you think it was a draw of like one particular well you know the bands were i mean girl trouble played right before us and they're a legendary uh 90s era northwest band but they look like a funky dance band what were they well they were like a blues okay like a dirty blues uh but but like funky like the like in the old days
John: the lead singer sometimes would play a baritone sax and it was just, it was like, that's a long horn.
John: It was, it was young, fresh fellows era, Northwest music.
Merlin: So people were having fun with it.
John: Oh yeah.
John: It's fun.
John: Uh, and, and you know, now they're in their sixties and he took off his shirt and everybody's like, wow.
John: Um, but so we got up on stage and, uh, we played this show and,
John: and it was honestly like one of the best long winter shows in terms of in terms of my experience internally because it was like this really big appreciative crowd
John: Like a city, like a whole city block full of local people.
John: In addition to some people that I met later that flew in, people flew in from all around the country to see it.
John: And although none of my friends who actually live in Seattle could be chuffed to drive across town, because West Seattle, for a lot of people in Seattle, West Seattle seems like a different continent.
John: Is that like your Oakland?
John: It is.
John: It really is.
John: You have to go across a long bridge.
John: It's all the way over there.
John: It feels like exchange over there.
John: Yeah.
John: What am I going to how am I going to get around over there?
John: Their street that does the streets are different.
John: They have different names.
Merlin: And I'm like, yeah, it's different names and everything.
John: yeah there's no pike there's no pine it's just like over there what the streets are called like californian admiral and what does that even mean so people don't people i swear to you i i ran into 10 people this weekend who were like oh man sorry we missed your show we just couldn't and i'm like hey i know it's a bridge the streets have different names that's like a post-talk ergo hawk all the all the great shows
John: All the great show.
Merlin: Oh, man.
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: Oh, man.
John: It's been so crazy lately.
John: Yeah, we were going to try and make.
John: And these are the same people that are bitching at me all the time.
John: Like, why aren't the long winners playing?
John: It's like, well, we did play a big show.
John: Oh, but it was all the way over.
John: I dislike the empty compliments of obligation.
John: Yeah.
John: But it was a show where we're standing up there and anytime I looked over at one of my bandmates, they looked at me on stage in the moment and were like, this is amazing.
John: And I was like, I know, right?
John: And everybody stayed.
John: And we were the band that played right as the sun went down, which is the great spot.
Yeah.
Merlin: But again, you don't, it's difficult.
Merlin: For some reason, when you mentioned the thing about coming on at 10, I, when I was, it doesn't matter, but like when I was going to shows and when I was playing shows, that was that time in the nineties when, yes, it's nice to be the headliner, right?
Merlin: Cause you get like the big print or whatever and you get an ego boost.
Merlin: But like it was, there was that start time inflation where like fucking nothing would happen.
Merlin: The first of the three bands wouldn't go on until like 11.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You go on at like, well, yeah, right.
Merlin: You might go on at like 1.15 and there's just nobody there.
Merlin: It's just like not so much of a compliment.
Merlin: Can I ask real quick?
Merlin: Is there anybody in the group I'd know?
John: Well, so Mike Squires is playing the guitar.
John: He's your Paul Schaefer.
John: And then the drummer is Mike Musburger of the Posies.
John: Mike Musburger, the drummer of the Posies, longtime drummer of the Posies, who also is Ringo Starr's tour manager.
Merlin: You're saying, is it the guy who played Dream All Day?
Merlin: Is that him?
John: That's him.
Merlin: That's Mike Musburger, the Dream All Day drummer.
Merlin: What about Patu?
Merlin: What's that other song I like?
Merlin: Was he their regular drummer?
John: He was their regular drummer.
Merlin: He's a good drummer.
Merlin: He is.
Merlin: From the beginning all the way up.
Merlin: Daily Mutilation is the song I was thinking of.
Merlin: That's a good drum part.
John: I think through frosting on the beater and then he and Ken had a fist fight in Spain and somebody fell down a stair and then he hasn't been the drummer in the poses.
Yeah.
Merlin: I will defeat you in Man to Dracul fighting Blair.
John: Ah, the sun.
John: Who changed the dirt in my coffin.
John: And then the piano player and synth player is Dan Spills, who I think I've talked about, who is the guy I've been recording new songs with for the last several months.
John: Who went to he went to the rival high school in Anchorage.
John: He went to West High.
Merlin: He went to the one that got Ozzy Osbourne.
John: That's that's the one he went to the Ozzy Osbourne school and And he and I have known each other well for us 40 years, you know, but never ever did anything until a year ago and now he's in the band and Then was your was your retain.
Merlin: So you did you know each other in high school?
John: Not really, because you were at different schools.
John: Yeah, different schools, but we knew people in common.
John: Okay.
John: And so when he and I first started hanging out a year ago, we had that hometown thing where it was like, well, you know this guy.
John: Oh, yeah, I know that guy.
John: Well, that guy's sister was this guy.
John: Oh, yeah, I know her.
John: Well, didn't she go to this?
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Well, it was at the VFW Hall.
Merlin: Oh, yeah, that was right across the street.
Merlin: That's also when you find out a lot about people you kind of forgot about.
Merlin: You're like, oh, remember that one guy with the yellow car?
Merlin: And you're like, oh, yeah, Fenton.
John: For sure.
John: Well, and it was one of those where it was like, oh, yeah, she's, you know, I talked to her and she's having a feud with you.
John: And I'm like, she is?
John: I didn't know that.
John: Gotta check Facebook.
John: Yeah, she's mad at you about this and that.
John: And in fact, oh, here's the tragedy.
John: One time on this program, I don't know if I ever told you.
John: Is she the one that sent you the message that went to the wrong app?
John: No, no, no, no.
John: This is the one where we were talking, and I was like, oh, yeah, well, back in Anchorage at a certain time, you know, this family that was really close to us got into some financial trouble, and there was a big to-do, and it was in all the papers and stuff.
John: And one of our dedicated listeners said,
John: Katie and Katie went to West and listens to our show.
John: And Katie is, let's be honest, a shit disturber.
John: Katie is a shit disturber and always was.
Merlin: I once heard that shit only stinks when you stir it.
Merlin: You're saying she stirs, Katie stirs.
Merlin: So then Katie.
Merlin: That's a great Steely Dan record too.
Merlin: Katie stirred.
Merlin: Katie called.
Merlin: She broke in half my favorite turd.
Merlin: Katie called the daughter of the... Don't call me daughter.
John: Sorry.
Merlin: It's Monday.
John: Katie.
John: Hi, Katie.
John: Welcome to the program.
John: Hello, Katie.
John: And Katie, you know, Katie's always been Katie's over there.
John: West high, you know, but she's always been causing trouble.
John: She called the daughter of the of the family in question, someone that I was very close to growing up.
John: And, you know, our families were were very close.
John: um in fact her brother later on said you know she had a crush on you and i was like she never gave me the time of day she waltzed through the room i was like hi john roderick and he was like what inscrutable punch they are yeah yeah right she had a crush on me i wish i'd known yeah but anyway katie called her and said oh yeah john's talking about your folks on this show and then of course
John: She listened to the show, but... This is so complicated.
John: Both of her parents, her mother had recently died, and then her father got sick.
John: No, no, it was the other way around.
John: Her father had recently died, her mother got sick, and then died very quickly afterwards.
John: And so she, not understanding the time and tempo of our show and the way that I tell stories...
John: was like, why did you tell this terrible story about the worst thing that ever happened to my family?
Merlin: Oh, so it's something that was still very raw and felt cruel to her, probably.
John: And I was like, I was just talking about, like, you know, I just tell stories about stuff.
John: And I knew, I mean, all the years that we've been doing this show, I've known many times that I'm telling a real story about real stuff, and somebody, if they heard it, is going to be like, that's about me.
Merlin: I just, I honestly...
Merlin: I don't, it's not that I wouldn't be able to do this, but I don't know.
Merlin: Maybe it's just habituation, but I just tend to think that nobody will ever find out about that.
Merlin: And if they did, it wouldn't be a big deal.
Merlin: I mean, I still, I try to only say things that I would say, you know, for that person to hear, but you never know when you got a Katie in the mix.
Merlin: And that's a great, that is a, I've always wanted to have a Katie in my life.
Merlin: I've never had a Katie.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Well, Katie's probably, so that could be a red haired girl.
John: uh well you know katie's not redheaded but but you know she's she's a minx let's be honest and so and i'm sure that hurt that hurt her feelings because was she already lighting in it you know uh just you know we because you know she's always been a little bit of trouble yeah but so anyway then i'm estranged from this uh from this woman that i you know that i watched grew up that i know and the keyboard player know her
John: Oh, yeah.
John: Okay.
John: Well, and I wrote her and was like, hey, I'm sorry.
John: I didn't mean that.
John: I just talk about stuff.
John: And, you know, and I love your parents.
John: And I really did.
John: And her dad was so wonderful.
John: And she was like harrummed.
John: She harrummed me to death.
John: But then the keyboard player Dan said the other day that she came through town and Dan completely unaware that any of this had happened.
John: They had a lovely lunch and caught up.
John: They hadn't talked in 30 years.
John: And then she apropos of nothing brought it up.
John: And was like, John, John did all of this, said all these things.
John: And Dan, who I don't think has ever listened to the show, said, you know how he is.
John: He was just telling a story.
John: He course.
John: He didn't mean any harm.
John: He, you know, he loved your dad.
John: You weren't doing it out of cruelty.
John: Not anything of the kind, you know.
John: Just to say, yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: And I mean, of course, I haven't listened to the show, so I don't know what the hell I said.
John: But I got no malice directed at anybody except for my next-door neighbors.
John: Yeah.
John: And anyway, so...
John: Dan was on stage.
John: And then the bass player is a guy, a local guy named Jeff Fielder.
John: And he's a guy I've known, you know, sort of in the music scene for, I don't know, 25 years.
John: And he's one of those players.
John: Seattle always comes up with them.
John: there's only been i think what i would say four or five of these people where it's like there's a musician that's just incredibly gifted where everybody says well that guy can play anything yeah one of those people can just slot in with almost any kind of you know combo or mood or genre or whatever they're just they're like accomplished and know how to be a team player and the thing is that nashville and austin
John: And, you know, your big cities, Chicago and L.A.
Merlin: That's where you can go and like speaking of Steely Dan, that's the kind of place you go and you can be a side man.
Merlin: I bet you could be a side they, side person.
Merlin: You could go to Nashville or Austin and you could get gigs for a while.
John: In Nashville, I bet you there are 600 people that could play guitar, bass, pedal, steel and banjo on any kind of music and just be brilliant at it.
John: You know, that's not what Seattle's famous for.
John: We're famous for writing slightly difficult pop songs that nobody can, you know, that never really troubled the top of the charts.
Merlin: And not feeling, I mean, one way in which it is similar to what some people call punk rock is this idea that I don't feel any admonition about trying things that other people might think are sort of above my skills or station.
Merlin: Like, that's part of the fun of it is, if not precisely DIY, is the whole, like, I'm willing to take a swing with this.
Merlin: And that, to me, is part of the fun.
John: Right, like when we were learning these songs, and Dan, for instance, who's a brilliant keyboard player, and he's got this whole... He set up his keyboards, and it looked like Keith Emerson.
John: I was gonna say.
John: Yeah, more keyboards than I ever saw on our stage.
John: But he's like, I really can't make any sense of this Hammond part.
John: It's like, what exactly?
John: Scared Straight.
John: Yeah, right.
John: He's learning Scared Straight, and he's like, what are these chords?
John: I'm very impressed.
Merlin: Well, because it's playing an inversion, not an inversion exactly, but it's playing what doesn't seem like the straight part.
Merlin: It's almost like a Genesis song.
Merlin: It's almost like the keyboard comes in on a different part or something.
John: And that's what he was saying, like, is that a nine chord?
John: There aren't any other nine chords.
John: And I said, well, this is...
John: This is the thing about being in the long winters is that I played that Hammond part having never even seen a Hammond before and sat down at it while everybody rolled their eyes.
John: And I was like, what are all these switches do?
John: Watch the speaker spinning.
John: And then laid my hands upon the keyboard and did it until I liked it.
John: That's not what's going to happen at a Nashville report.
John: Until Ken punched out.
John: Yeah, I was just like...
John: But Jeff Fielder said, when asked to join the Long Winters, he said, I want to play the bass.
John: Because a couple of things.
Merlin: That is a great bass part on that song.
Merlin: But the part on the verse, like I said, with the horns is so good.
Merlin: But then the bass carries a lot of the verse of that song melodically in some ways.
John: it does and it's very and you know it's very percussive but also like very complicated all the long winter songs uh having taught having been in the room with people learning them i've been forced to confront by watching them learn these songs where every single song has a thing where they turn to me and go what your songs have a lot of those little
Merlin: twists to those little, not offbeat things, but just things that are not as straightforward as they first seem.
John: Well, yeah, and that's right.
John: And my sense of where the one is is, I guess, very individual.
John: And I'm like, no, you hear the one being here.
John: And I understand why you would do that, because that's conventional.
John: God, I love the arrangement of that song.
John: I'm going to listen to it when we're done here.
John: Oh, my God.
John: And Scared Straight is pretty straightforward in terms of where the one is.
John: But stupid has a one...
John: that is never where you're looking for it.
John: And they're like, I get it.
John: The stupid's only got four chords.
Merlin: But the one... It seems so like... It's so straightforward.
Merlin: But then once things get going, it's not where you expect.
John: No, that's right.
John: It's very deceptive.
John: anyway and then and so in practice i've been turning to mike squires and and again then because they look at me and i'm like i have no idea why you're finding this difficult and then mike will say here's the here's what he did and it's and what's happening is he tries to your god and he's milton
Merlin: and that's right just to find the ways of john to band and then once he explains it i go oh right i guess because you're kind of learning that was weird like but the arrangement of that song is so i would also scared it's like curiosity scared straight so is that more of a ken or a chris or a somebody else production thing this is very interesting that you ask because it was a it was a wall of production
John: And in fact, that baseline, there was for a long time a dispute.
John: Because I remember being in the studio and Chris and Eric Corson were kind of huddled over in the corner with the bass.
John: And I was over like, well, what are these, you know, finger tambourines do or whatever I was doing?
John: Like, why don't we put a microphone in a paper towel and, you know, blah.
John: and i'm watching for that the classic uh chris you know gated paper towel tube sound he got from uh bowie's berlin era and and i actually wrote that song on the piano i didn't even have a guitar at first yeah i wrote it on the piano feels like a guitar song well it was later because after i recorded it on the piano i was like maybe i should learn this song on the guitar did you start with that first line or did that come later
John: That was the last song on that record that I put vocals on.
Merlin: So Washington's On The One came late?
John: Came very late.
John: Like the last day.
John: The last day of recording.
Merlin: You're famous for this, John.
Merlin: You're famous.
Merlin: We never talk about, you know, you used to be in a band.
Merlin: We don't talk about it much here, but I'm a fan of that band.
Merlin: That's how we met.
Merlin: And...
Merlin: But even in the Airsats documentary, I don't know if that documentary ever came out, but the Adam documentary thing, where you could see you're in the studio, and you're scribbling while people are doing other tracks.
Merlin: You're still working on lyrics, usually, right?
John: and and scared straight was the last one it was one of those things where where um at that point ken said hey this is the last day we're done and you have this song that's really cool sounding but you don't have any words and so all you have to do and we had already done stuff that day and he was like you have to put words on this
Merlin: And so I got all my... So were you just singing like... It's just, it's so rhythmic and it fits so well.
Merlin: Sorry, I really enjoy your music.
Merlin: But it's got such a rhythmic kind of like... It feels... Were you doing ba-ba-da-ba, like scrambled eggs type lyrics while you were... No, I don't think so.
John: I don't think I had any concept.
Merlin: I had written these chords and I was like... You didn't even know how the lead vocal would fit in with the rest of the arrangement yet.
Merlin: And had you recorded the horns at this point or was that later?
John: We had.
John: The horns were there.
John: Holy shit.
John: That's wild.
John: I can't believe it works as well as it does.
John: If you look at the song, it's very obvious that she didn't want you to speak right.
John: That should have been the chorus of the song because that's the hook.
Merlin: Yeah, but fuck you.
Merlin: It's got so many of those good, it's got, like, car parts to me is always the apotheosis of, like, Jesus fucking, John, can you get any more, like, really good little snippets?
Merlin: Isn't that Little Miss Mean Mini Bar Guard?
Merlin: That's right.
John: Little Miss Mean Mini Bar Guard.
John: Because, you know, she's there.
Merlin: Little Miss Mean Mini, I know, I know what it means.
John: Yeah, right.
Merlin: Oh, look at you, you pointed yourself Little Miss Mean.
John: So, yeah.
John: So, oh, that's right.
John: So Walla and Corson were huddled over in the corner while I'm laying down these tracks.
John: And then Eric stands up and he's like, okay, I'm ready to cut the bass.
John: We push record.
John: He's like, but I don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't where did that come from?
Merlin: This is obviously before the horns because then they followed the base.
Merlin: Yeah, exactly.
John: And that was a very Uncharacteristic Eric part like he doesn't have very many of parts like that.
Merlin: He I think Eric is such a good bass player But like I don't know this this is gonna you can't help but come off as an insult and I really don't mean it that way because I
Merlin: It's a double insult because I'm also referring to myself.
Merlin: I've always felt kind of like, I play bass on stuff, and I play bass a fair amount, but like, say, Lou Barlow, I think I'm somebody where when I play bass, you can tell I started on guitar, and I kind of get that feeling with Eric.
Merlin: Even with John Entwistle, you get somebody who's such a melodic bassist, but you can tell he's so bassed in the sound of a Rick...
Merlin: electric bass with a certain setup right instead of like me i'm like i'm practically playing power chords a lot of the time you know what i mean like yeah just playing on something like on the a and the d or something like that eric so eric just kind of eric and chris huddled they kind of pick that up and then he just starts laying it down
John: And I felt like, well, that just changed slash made the song because the bass now is this huge hook and like this integral thing.
John: It's tight, but it's looping.
John: But later on, and sometimes we would play it too fast and Eric would look over me and he's like, there's a lot going on here for the speed that we're playing this tune.
John: But later, Walla,
John: kind of took credit for the baseline.
John: And Eric was very offended and said, well, I didn't write that baseline.
Merlin: You mean like in interviews and stuff?
Merlin: Yeah.
John: And so there was a little bit of like, I don't know if they ever stood toe to toe and said, I wrote it.
John: No, I wrote it.
John: But there was certainly some of that.
John: And you know, it's weird.
Merlin: I can't say this about that many people, but I bet Eric would win that fight.
Merlin: I don't think there's that many people Eric would be, but he seems wiry.
Merlin: I bet he gets, I bet he really gets in there.
Merlin: But like, well, he just, he would be on the floor apologizing or like understanding.
John: Eric's shy, whereas, you know, Walla is not exactly shy, but Eric's also very proud of him.
John: wallah is but bellingham has you know a lot of weirdness but eric's from kent which means nothing to anybody that isn't from here but the people that are from here are going to go whoa eric's from kent yeah eric's from kent like upper kent but so but eric's very proud he's not you know he's he's shy but he's proud so if somebody's trying to take credit for a thing that eric did he's not going to sit there and roll over that's a bummer
John: but um jeff jeff fielder's the bass player fielder says i want to play the bass and everybody goes fielder on the bass and i think i even said it because feel jeff fielder right now plays guitar in the indigo girls and he played you know he got up with derrick trucks when they came through town and they like played a featured guitar
John: He's a guy that's like, he is a national player.
Merlin: So he can like slot in with whatever's happening.
John: But here he is playing the bass.
John: But practicing, I realized, oh my God, he's a great bass player.
John: That makes such a big deal.
John: Such a huge deal.
John: And even on the Scared Straight bass line, he put a kind of 60s soul groove on it.
John: that wasn't there before.
Merlin: It's a little, it's already a little bit, I mean, because of the horns, I guess, but like it's a little staxy already a little bit.
John: And he put a little bit more of that mojo on it.
John: And then the Longhorns came out for the show.
John: So we had this whole thing and then Oliver, the guy that runs the stage,
John: Oliver's got smoke machines up there, and the smoke machines are going, and it's a 79-degree night, and everybody, the crowd just stayed.
John: And then that thing that I always forget that I think is...
John: Well, I don't know.
John: It's not 100% common, I don't think.
John: But the crowd was singing along.
John: And at times, singing as a crowd, loud enough for us to hear it, over the music.
John: And that doesn't happen...
John: at very many shows and i forget that in seattle the long winters have that kind of a group of fans yeah that are that are enough that they could fill a city street and sing the music and i think it's one of the and i think kexp plays a role in it
John: I at John Richards's birthday party last year, we're standing talking and I kind of, you know, grabbed him by the by the lapel, which he doesn't you know, he doesn't like.
Merlin: And I said, hey, he's a runner.
Merlin: So I think he's probably usually in athletic gear.
Merlin: He's a lot of athleisure.
Merlin: He's fit, but small.
John: That's like me, except for the fit part.
John: Yeah, fit but small.
John: Fit but small, but S-M-O-L.
John: Happy birthday, I'm grabbing you by the lapels, you piece of shit.
John: And I said, listen, because he's a guy, John Richards doesn't like being made the butt of a joke.
John: He's a good sport, but he doesn't like to get roasted.
John: But I said, look, man,
John: For the last, for the entire time that I've been a musician in Seattle, you have supported me.
John: You've played every band on the radio that I've been in.
John: You have continuously played the Long Winters, even unto now.
John: And...
John: have played an unmeasurably large role in making my music career, and I just want to acknowledge it.
John: I just want to say right now on your 50th birthday that I know how big of a part you've played
John: in and and with no you had no reason to i'm not your best friend like you didn't you don't benefit from it like just as a fan you have done this and he you know was i think pleased to have it noticed right because i mean like if i could see especially coming from you
Merlin: I mean, in the sense that you're not somebody who just peels off compliments like post-it notes.
Merlin: That must have felt kind of momentous.
John: It often requires that I grab your lapel and shake you as I'm complimenting.
Merlin: Oh, I mean, we're all different.
John: But it's absolutely true.
Merlin: It's neat, though, because just listening to KXPN, I forget who was on in the afternoon.
Merlin: I was bummed because we weren't going to get... Kevin Cole?
Merlin: Was it Cheryl Waters?
Merlin: No, God, I love her in the videos.
Merlin: I love Cheryl Waters so much.
Merlin: If you ever see her or meet her, please tell her I said hi and I really enjoy her whole deal.
John: I saw her just a night ago.
Merlin: Oh man.
Merlin: Um, so this is like four 30 Pacific yesterday.
Merlin: Cause at five o'clock, uh, the person was going to play this, I guess a session slash interview with teenage fan club.
Merlin: And I was like, Oh, because you know, I like teenage fan club.
Merlin: Um, so that would have been what the time was, but like, yeah, we, we heard a whole bunch of the songs on there, but it's just something about like, you can tell that there are people who you play stuff because it's in rotation or whatever, but you know, in some ways you,
Merlin: not your own premature what's the word like you put a little bit of your like your own like ah yeah here's here's one like you're keeping it keeps it alive like when they're when they're out there playing whatever song they play like that's also like it's an oldie recurrent they used to call it in college radio right like it's not in current rotation but oldie recurrence will come back and like get played again sometimes for a while or you know i don't know cheryl also i could do the same i would never grab her by the lapel but i could say she's very dignified
John: And she's, you know, she's a tastemaker.
John: And honestly, this is the thing.
John: They don't just play Cinnamon and Pushover.
John: Like, they will play across the whole catalog.
John: And I think they play Commander a lot.
John: Little Grass Shack.
John: Yeah, they'll play Little Grass Shack.
John: Like, here's an oldie but a goodie.
John: But so, that experience.
John: I almost got the last part.
Merlin: What did your dad say at the end?
Merlin: He says, you can hear such a great Dave Rodderick.
Merlin: I almost got it.
Merlin: I got about five lines that time.
Merlin: And you're singing on that.
Merlin: Susan's singing on that, right?
Merlin: Aren't a bunch of people singing on that?
John: No, Susan's not there, but there's like 19 people in the studio, including Pony the dog, who's barking along.
Merlin: You mentioned Pony by name in it, yeah.
Merlin: Sorry, I'll shut up now.
Merlin: I'm a fan of yours, and I never get to talk about music anymore.
Merlin: Please continue.
Merlin: I'm sorry.
Merlin: No, no.
Merlin: It's great.
Merlin: So we've learned that John Richard, John in the morning, does not like being the butt of jokes.
Merlin: He's a little guy, you said.
Merlin: Well, not a little guy.
John: I mean, he's just smaller than me.
Merlin: I think you said he's very, very small, I think you said.
John: He's small, but not small.
Merlin: Small, but he's not swole.
Merlin: He's not swole.
Merlin: All right.
Merlin: But he's fit.
Merlin: He's very fit.
Merlin: I watch a lot of those KEXP Live things, and that's where Cheryl... Oh, man.
Merlin: She's... I wrote down a word you said earlier that we're going to talk about in our bonus episode.
Merlin: Consanguinity.
Merlin: She's very sanguine.
Merlin: She's very centered.
Merlin: She's very dignified.
Merlin: She is.
Merlin: And then she'll just play... Then they just introduce Wussy, and they're playing a song, and everybody's happy.
John: Yeah, she's an anchor.
John: She really is.
John: She's solid and confident and knows her corner of the world.
Merlin: How'd John respond?
John: Well, you know, it's his 50th birthday party, and so he's surrounded by well-wishers.
John: But I do feel like...
John: As a DJ, a DJ is like a writer in a way.
John: Everybody in the country knows John Richards, but he's sitting in a booth by himself every day.
John: So he gets emails.
John: Yeah, he gets phone calls, but he doesn't.
John: He has no direct contact.
John: He's never stood on a stage like that and had an hour long thing where people said his best quotes back to him.
John: So I think those moments where people are able, and I bet you 99% of the musicians, because musicians have complicated relationships with radio, and I bet you people don't come and say, by the way, if it weren't for you,
John: There would just be a lot less for me because of you sitting there and every time you play a record.
Merlin: I like the part you said about, like, I don't know if you actually said this in as many words.
Merlin: You probably did.
Merlin: But, like, I like that idea, though, of just saying, look, like, you had nothing to gain from this.
Merlin: but like your, your interest and enthusiasm made a difference, not just in how often and what you played, but like in like, I don't know, you become part of this.
Merlin: It's, I mean, God, I want to think of somebody like almost like John Peel where it's like, you know, John Peel, I think one of the famous ones is teenage kicks by undertones.
Merlin: He liked it so much.
Merlin: He played it twice in a row, which was this epochal event at the time is like,
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: I think he was on the BBC at that point.
Merlin: But Radio Carolina or whatever, he liked this song so much he played it twice.
Merlin: Played it twice.
Merlin: And that's still part of the legend.
Merlin: That's a band from Northern Ireland in 1977, maybe?
Merlin: And that's still my top undertone story is John Peel liked it so much he played the single twice.
Merlin: It makes a difference to know...
Merlin: that like the people, you wouldn't be listening to that radio station if, unless you kind of could get with who the people are and what they're playing on some level, especially on, you know, indie rock or whatever.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: I think it's really cool.
Merlin: And it's nice that you did that.
Merlin: I hope you appreciated that.
John: Well, more than a decade ago, they, I think probably 15 years ago, KEXP tried to open a New York City
John: And they spent a bunch of, I think probably a bunch of money and a bunch of time and effort to open a New York City KEXP because at that time they were an evangelist for a certain kind of indie rock and they were very appreciated there.
Merlin: And I think of things like my... I only know this because my friend Chris did the website that I eventually got in the station.
Merlin: There's a station in Dayton called Waxi.
John: Waxi was such a big Long Winters supporter.
John: Yes.
John: Waxi made a huge difference for us.
Merlin: But it's also from that time where...
Merlin: it isn't just like, oh, you can listen to a stream of this in real player at six bits or whatever.
Merlin: Like, there was an emergence, it didn't last for long, but there was an emergence of stations that were at least as well-known sort of online as they were in their local community.
Merlin: Like...
Merlin: I ordinarily would not know the name of an independent radio station from Dayton, Ohio, if it weren't for Waxi.
Merlin: And I supported them.
Merlin: But that's an exciting time, because now you're moving beyond just this little radius of wherever you live.
John: Yeah, there are people in the Midwest are listening to Waxi, but then also there are people like KEXB in Germany who are listening to Waxi.
Merlin: WFMU, would that be kind of another one?
John: Well, you know, WFMU.
Merlin: Because they got the comedy guy and the guy from Super Chunk.
John: Yeah, they got the comedy guy.
John: And that show went wide.
John: But, you know, I think of WFMU as being an East Coast-centered thing.
John: Anyway, we were up there.
John: This is on Friday.
John: This is three days ago.
John: And there haven't been that many shows for me where I were in the middle of the show, in the middle of the stage with all the complications that go into putting on a show.
John: I was explaining to my daughter, like every single song has, I have to keep in mind and in order about 50 moves to,
John: Because I'm transitioning from parts.
John: I'm playing the guitar in different ways.
John: On this part, I'm wider.
John: On this part, I'm pluckier.
John: Here, it's the beginning of a swell.
Merlin: It's not like you've been on tour for eight weeks.
Merlin: this is not new to you, but you have to concentrate on this more than you might have at one time.
Merlin: It's not the same group you played with for a million, right?
Merlin: There's, like, lots of different factors, let alone just the whole, like, appearing on any stage is always a little bit of a crapshoot.
Merlin: It just could be one of the...
Merlin: one of the wedges is out or something like there's just so much to keep in, keep track.
John: And there was that, there was that there were technical problems, but you know, it's a thing about being a band leader too.
John: Like I'm also responsible for everybody else up there because if they hit a clonk,
John: In the end, it's going to be me.
John: Their clam is your clam.
John: That's right.
John: Everybody looks at me and goes, why does your band sound like ass?
John: And I'm like, this guy's amp just crapped out.
John: I remember very distinctly the first show I ever played with Harvey Danger.
John: I'm sorry.
John: That's not true.
John: The first big show, like we had played a couple of club shows to get our feet.
Merlin: This is keyboards at that time.
John: Yeah.
John: Keyboards.
John: And we were about to play end fest.
John: Like we had gone out from playing 350 clubs, just, just to kind of, you know, get associated to playing for 15,000 people on an outdoor stage in the middle of the day.
John: And we walked out and Sean had said many, many times, he's like this band is,
John: Just every time, they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory over and over.
John: And I have no idea why, but there's always something.
John: It's always something.
John: And I was like, don't worry about it.
John: This is the beginning of the big tour for King James Version.
Merlin: Was it different things, different times?
John: Always different.
John: Didn't Jeff have a pretty complicated...
John: uh set up a little bit ridiculous how many things he had and but but you know but but sean is the face of the band right sean is the man and we walk out there and they do some elaborate skit with murder city devils because he and the guy look the same except the except spencer is small and sean is large small v swole
John: And he came out and he was like, I'm Sean Nelson.
John: And everybody was like, huh?
John: And then Sean comes out and goes, give me that mic.
John: And, you know, it's just like crickets.
Merlin: 20,000 people.
Merlin: I love comedy skits.
Merlin: That's my favorite part of every hip-hop album.
Merlin: I love the skits.
John: It's why Three Feet High and Rising is such a wonderful journey.
John: Jennifer.
John: Oh.
John: A wonderful journey of skipping through the, trying to find where the song starts.
John: Ecotech.
John: Ecotech.
John: So they're out there, there's 17,000 kids that are not comprehending what's happening.
John: And then the joke was... Who are probably, at least a third of them are just there for Flagpole SIDA, right?
John: Well, or not even that.
John: What they're there for is the Foo Fighters, and they're like, oh, this is the band that has Flagpole SIDA.
John: And so at that point, Sean turns around.
John: This is, you know, Spencer leaves the stage.
John: Sean grabs the mic.
John: And then it's one of these one, two, three.
John: And the band's going to launch into Carlotta Valdez.
John: Just blow the crowd away.
John: And he goes, one, two, three.
John: And the song starts with Aaron, big distorted bass.
John: Yeah.
John: And Aaron steps forward, hits the bass, no sound.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: And so.
Merlin: Oh, gee.
Merlin: Oh, no.
Merlin: Oh, and wait.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: So first, just let's put this all in context.
Merlin: First of all, you start out and there's business.
Merlin: As we like to say in the industry, you got some business.
Merlin: There's some jokes and some laughs.
Merlin: You got some bits, but then once you're committed to the, to the one, two, three, four car, like you're going to blaze right into this and nothing comes out.
John: Nothing comes out.
John: The thing about the skit was that Harvey danger and the murder city devils had a very public feud in Seattle at the time because the murder city devils had decided to be the band that
John: that came out at their punk rock shows and said, Harvey Danger, am I right?
John: Bunch of sellouts and nerds.
Merlin: Were they bad boys?
Merlin: I remember them being almost like an urge overkill.
Merlin: Did they dress funny and have uniforms or something?
Merlin: They wore tight black clothes or something?
John: That's exactly right.
Merlin: And too many belts.
Merlin: I remember seeing them at Bottom of the Hill, and I think they had an entire semi of equipment.
Merlin: And they were a good band.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah.
Merlin: They feel like that kind of stuff.
John: But Harvey Danger was a big band at the time.
John: And so Murder City Devil's picking at him, picking at him from the bottom.
John: Like, eh, you guys aren't punk and we're punk.
John: And in Seattle.
Merlin: I bet Sean hated this.
John: Oh, he really hurt him.
John: Oh, bad.
John: And there's nothing that the.
Merlin: But I mean, the opening, like the opening, you know, you know, kind of biffing like that must have just been like so heartbreaking to him.
John: It was terrible because I think the first show that they did it, Sean was probably in the crowd, like, here to support the local scene.
John: And Harvey Danger was very supportive of the local scene.
John: And then for the cool band that set their keyboards on fire to say, oh, these guys suck.
John: Yeah, man.
John: Harvey Danger sucks, man.
John: And, you know, it really hurt them.
John: And even at the time,
John: squires and i were like look these guys are fucking ding-a-links like they're playing for 500 people and they're mad that you guys are have sold a half a million records like don't give them a second thought but of course that's not how it works especially my dear my dear friend sean that's that's right he he to quit mr show he takes it personal and makes it personal
John: He took it personal and made it personal.
John: But this moment where they were going to get up on stage and Spencer was going to come out and be like, I'm Sean Nelson.
John: And then Sean would tap him on the shoulder and be like, no, you're not.
John: Get out of here.
John: It was supposed to be like the end of the feud and the big friendly, you know, like the uniting.
Merlin: Everybody comes out of it dignified because look how hard Harvey Danger rocks on the Vertigo song.
John: except no sound comes out.
John: And then we're standing in front of 17,000 uncomprehending teenagers while we troubleshoot why the bass isn't working.
John: And like people wandering around the stage, you know, there's tech guys out there.
John: Turns out the plug had come out, but only halfway.
John: So it looked like it was plugged in.
John: Unless you really got in there and you were like, oh, it's like a quarter inch out.
Merlin: This is for Aaron's amplifier.
John: Somebody plugged it in and then it was like, but even then it was just like, well...
John: Okay, here we go.
John: And launched into the set.
John: But this show on Friday was the opposite of that.
John: Even the technical problems.
John: We just powered through them.
John: And I've almost never been able to stand in the moment of some kind of triumph.
John: and said, wait, this is an ongoing triumph.
John: I'm in the middle of a triumph.
Merlin: Talk about an understatement.
Merlin: That is a huge understatement because this is like an ongoing thing for you.
Merlin: It's like a famous bit from the beginning with our visits here is that like how difficult it is for you to sit with any kind of apparent victory or improvement or anything.
Merlin: Like you have a habit of sort of
Merlin: Like a lot of us do problematizing everything and making it something incapable of enjoyment.
John: Exactly.
John: Like I would stand there and, you know, your own yum is what you do.
John: Yuck on the yum.
John: And I've, you know, I've stood on great stages.
John: I've the long winters played a headlining show.
John: Like, basically, we were the Friday night headliner and Teenage Fan Club was the Saturday night headliner in a Barcelona music festival where we were playing in the Plaza de Real to, you know, what at the time seemed like a sea of people.
John: But I was up there, had a bad monitor mix, and was like, this is a nightmare.
John: Instead of just figuring out like, well, turn the monitors off and I'll just play just, you know, from memory and soak this moment up.
John: But this was one of those moments where I was up there and I was like, you know, I got 47 of those 50 moves, right?
John: But there's no, there's nothing complex about this.
John: The fog machines are going and instead of blurring our vision, because it's 79 degrees and with the light breeze and it's slightly humid, the fog was actually going out over the crowd so that you look out and the sea of people are a little bit,
Merlin: in in the mist like it almost it was like it was like something from middle earth but you can't in the same way that you can't you cannot inoculate yourself against something like a power plug getting knocked out you the other thing to the 10th power is you can't manufacture magic
Merlin: You're lucky to be there if it happens and you ride on it, but it means so much to have a crowd of that particular sort of size on your side.
Merlin: Totally.
Merlin: It changes everything.
John: On our side.
John: Yeah.
John: And even there were some guys in the beer garden who at first sounded like they were going to be hecklers.
John: We were up there getting our shit together and they were like, go play, what the hell, get started, blah, blah.
John: And I was like, all right, you guys, like, you're on notice.
John: Oh, fuck yeah.
John: And I was like, okay, well, there's always going to be something.
John: And then as soon as we started playing, you know, after the first song, the same guys over there were like, that's fucking amazing, rad, you know.
John: Did you open Whiskers straight?
John: We came right out with car parts and then went into stupid and then medicine cabinet pirate.
John: We didn't even play hits at first.
John: We were just like, you're going to get some songs from the first record, you MFers.
John: How's this?
John: Of the first three songs, two of them are from the first album.
John: Eat it.
John: Like Scent of Lime?
John: Car parts?
John: What was the other one?
John: We played Scent of Lime.
John: We played it in the set.
John: Not an easy song to play live.
Merlin: Nope, nope, nope.
John: Anyway.
John: So happy for you.
Merlin: I'm happy for you and I'm happy for them.
Merlin: It's exciting to be in the audience when, I mean, as you know, you're not a fan.
Merlin: I am a fan, above all.
Merlin: And I know what it's like to be there when something special and unmanufacturable is happening.
Merlin: And it's what keeps us coming back.
John: and this was the first long winters headlining show since 2017 but even in 2017 when we played a music festival here in seattle that was put on by paul allen briefly paul allen was like i'm gonna put a i'm gonna make a south by southwest instead in seattle and we're gonna have a tech festival that's also gonna be a music festival he can't call it north by northwest though
John: Well, there was one of those in Portland.
John: Oh, okay.
John: All right.
John: They had one.
John: They had one.
John: But no, he called it the Upstream Festival.
John: Upstream.
John: And then, of course, it was completely founded and funded by him.
John: And then he got cancer and died.
John: So nobody picked it up and rolled with it.
John: It was like a two-year thing.
Merlin: Had to sell Chris Ballew's sneakers or whatever.
John: Yeah, that's right.
Merlin: No, no, no.
John: His sister.
John: His tour van?
John: Oh, I see.
John: I see.
John: But, um, probate law, but even in 2017, it was like the long winners are getting back together to play this one show.
John: Yeah.
John: The last time we really had a, had a show like that.
John: I mean, and we played as a full band during my election campaign in 2015, but even then it was like one off special show and
John: So it has been so long since we got up on stage and played a headlining slot at an anything.
John: And here was this audience.
John: And here was this.
John: And everything that's happened to me in the last four years.
John: This was way more than I could have expected in 2022 or 2021 when I was looking at my future and said, what is supposed to happen to me now?
John: I'm out.
John: I'm done somehow in show business because a lot of people kind of worked hard to have me be done.
John: And now my city embraces me in this way.
John: And Squires is standing there with his sourpuss, but he looks at me and goes, you know, what...
John: Like on stage, like, this is, this, I don't know how this is going to be better.
John: And I was like, I know, right?
John: Like, and then I look over at Jeff.
Merlin: It's so cool that you were able to, I'm sorry to interrupt.
Merlin: It's just, I don't know, it makes me happy that you were able to enjoy it and in particular enjoy it in that moment.
Merlin: And you must have been a little proud of yourself for enjoying it.
John: Well, because it does feel like something I can do at 55 that I couldn't do at 30.
John: The doing it or the appreciating it or both?
John: Well, I mean, getting up there and playing the show, I could do, I did pretty well at 35.
John: Yeah.
John: But I couldn't have been, I couldn't have been present.
John: And that seems like the product.
John: Your opening act is always demon dogs.
Yeah.
John: Exactly.
John: Well, and they're up there on the stage.
John: I have to kick them constantly to get them away from my amp.
Merlin: They're not even like wolves.
Merlin: They're not even wolves.
Merlin: They're just like scores of Pomeranians.
John: Hop, hop, hop, hop.
Merlin: Shitty fucking demon dogs.
John: It's like three professional football players playing against 600 kids.
John: Three dogs in a trench coat.
John: Your worst fan.
John: They're super mad at me.
John: But it's the thing about not being a fan.
John: When I was 35 and I looked at a sea of fans and they were singing my songs back to me, my internal reaction, my emotional reaction was always, well, yeah, you guys like this stuff, but it's because you're ding-a-lings.
John: Like, you're fans of something.
Merlin: Yeah, which is why the one time I saw Nirvana was incredibly depressing.
Merlin: Because you could tell they were like, oh, she's the one who likes all her pretty songs.
Merlin: Like, at a civic center, you could just feel that it was not fun for anybody.
John: right they didn't they they thought for for you to like this there's there must be something wrong with you yeah the groucho marx problem totally and to to be up there and have because at that point in the song cinnamon where i where we stopped playing and i go start please start please start i'd forgotten
John: or didn't expect that that's a part that Long Winter's fans want to sing.
John: And we are playing along and we get to that part and I go, start.
John: And then this wave of sound from the crowd, please start.
John: And I stepped back from the mic, partly in surprise.
John: at both being reminded and by how big the response was.
John: And when I stepped back from the mic, the rest of the people in the crowd
John: Joined and they the whole crowd did start.
John: Please start please start and to come back in from that where we all Come back in with our instruments.
John: We all hit the the next chord together Yeah, the do you remember three four stuff but with but but doing it like in the while the while the crowd is still reverberating.
John: Yeah, yeah It's a big experience
Merlin: Well, again, it's like they are, I don't know, part of... And you mentioned Foo Fighters, which is, I think, their success with live shows.
Merlin: I've just seen so many live things they've done that are so fun.
Merlin: And, like, you could just tell, like, I don't know, it's a big deal to be at a Foo Fighters show.
Merlin: And then somebody comes up and plays drums.
Merlin: And Kiss Guy comes up and plays guitar.
Merlin: And, like, they're really good at, like, allowing space for something special to happen for the fans.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And I guess maybe that's, I don't want to say it's easier for them, but it's cool that you were able to slot into that.
Merlin: And I don't know, I'm proud of you and I'm happy for you that you were able to stand there in that moment.
Merlin: And you're kind of, the crowd's part of the routine in a really unusually good way.
John: The first time I saw the Foo Fighters, I watched Dave Grohl.
John: absolutely with a stadium in his pocket and he did every single thing he went down into the crowd he handed his guitar off to a fan he told jokes he stood on his fucking head he played a drum solo then he played another one pavement level silliness with a band that was like on radio stations you can get in your car and super crack musicians and he's a crack musician
John: But watching him do that and just own a room.
John: It's like the time I saw Adele where here's a woman standing in the center of a stadium and everybody feels like they're sitting in their living room with their best friend.
Merlin: She's so like regal, but it's so approachable.
Merlin: Like she's so real, you know, incredible.
John: The power she has.
John: and both of those were very empowering experiences for me as a performer but of course i've always had my own version of that i've always been able to stand up in front of a room full of people and make it feel like a small conversation just between us or you know or that i'm having a good that i'm not taking it too seriously and it's just my internal experience that is
John: that's complicated the experience of watching me isn't you know it's like here this guy is like it's not that complicated it's rock music it's just i'm i'm literally playing a tapping solo in the middle of stupid it's not on the record this is just my thing and it's not a good one but we're all in it together did you guys play oh sorry go ahead did you guys play did you guys play new girl
John: We did not.
John: Okay.
John: There's an entire— Wow, that's a lot of restraint.
Merlin: With an audience like that, because I'll bet you guys, did you have—because it's not—I don't want to say it's just a three-chord song, but it's not—it's a—what is it?
Merlin: It's 5-4-1, kind of like, right?
Merlin: Or, no.
Merlin: But it's a pretty straightforward three-chord song in some ways.
Merlin: Did you have it in your pocket?
Merlin: Because talk about—
Merlin: I'm just thinking in terms of like audience response, that was always a banger was the yelling, you know, back and forth.
John: No, we did not have it.
John: We had forgotten that it existed, but we have an entire other set.
John: Uh, we have two other sets that we didn't even touch upon and we're playing another show this summer.
John: we're playing another outdoor festival show headlining the stag party and we have three weeks to get ready for it and it's another one of these shows that you know when i when i found out that this stage for the west seattle fest was like a basically on the back of a semi truck in the middle of the street
John: Part of what made it really... Part of what lowered my expectations was that I thought about that and I was just like, well, this... I understand what the top of this is going to be.
Merlin: It's not going to get any better than... It's potentially kind of a low-ceiling event where it's almost like two clicks above a state fair show.
Merlin: People are just here to hang out and be drunk or something.
John: In fact, I said...
John: When I found out that it was on a trailer, I was like, oh, my God, we're playing the fucking hay bale stage.
John: Like, I've played the hay bale stage at a county fair before.
John: Like, I know what the hay bale stage is.
John: And so I was like, I'm not worried about this.
John: This is going to be fun.
Merlin: You're over here.
Merlin: Let's see.
Merlin: You go on at 8.49 p.m.
Merlin: over here in the... Yeah, you're over here in the Jaw Harp and Jug Pavilion.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah, right by the cotton candy stand.
John: You know, you won't be able to miss it.
John: You can smell the churros.
John: Yeah, the main stage, you won't be able to see from where you are.
John: No, no, no, no, no.
John: That's a whole different area.
John: You need a golf cart to get there.
John: Look, the hay bale stage is a big deal, too.
John: And so there's something about this show that's also a little bit hay bale stage enough that I'm able to say like, well, we had our big show this summer and now we're going to play this other show, but it's also a big outdoor rock show.
John: And, you know, this is all very fun, weirdly, weirdly fun, right?
John: And I don't even think when I talked about this show a month ago, I would have even for a moment considered that it would be fun, which is weird to say.
Merlin: Yeah, I know, but I take what you mean, because past is prologue.
Merlin: You know, all you have going into any new experience is the experiences you had before and like, and how you react to those kinds of things.
Merlin: And if it seemed like, again, this is my term, but a low ceiling event, like this will only get, this can only get so good.
Merlin: And so like, just don't fuck up is the main thing, right?
John: Yeah.
John: Don't come out of this feeling worse.
John: But again, I don't know.
John: I did not feel going into this and certainly coming out of it any kind of schadenfreude, any kind of feeling like I'm back, baby, or like, you know, anything like I had none of those feelings.
John: I walked into this just like, well, here's a thing that dropped into my lap and I'm going to try and do the best I can.
John: And to just feel validated in a way that we're... And I think a lot of people our age are having this experience of feeling like, did I do anything?
John: Have I done anything?
John: Or have I just been...
John: Mark and time.
John: And I think there were a lot of bands that were peers of mine going out of the 90s.
John: where we had had a wonderful scene.
John: We'd had a decade of playing rock music together in a town that had made a big splash, but now had retracted back.
John: And we had this indie rock community of people where there were a dozen bands.
John: We all played shows with each other, except for the Murder City Devils, who were too cool to play with any of us.
John: And we all went to each other's shows and we all hated Everett True because he was a terrible music writer.
John: And we were mad at the stranger and being mad at being like panned by the stranger became like a badge of honor.
John: And it was a real scene.
John: And at the end of it, and it really did end really fast.
John: Modest Mouse came out of it.
John: Death Cab came out of it.
John: Harvey Danger came out of it.
John: And then...
John: everybody was 30, basically.
John: Everybody turned 30 and looked around.
Merlin: Yeah, it's like, it isn't like, there's this odd thing that happens whenever you're in, for lack of a better word, a scene, but really anywhere where there's, this could be Weimar Germany, where like, you know that there's so much happening and it's so exciting and the world seems endless.
Merlin: There's this, there's not a specific, probably a day or a moment, but at some point, you realize the sky is no longer the limit.
Yeah.
Merlin: And now there is a ceiling to this.
Merlin: And what are you talking about?
Merlin: I remember hearing, God, it was probably 99, but I remember hearing, I think it was a review of a Posey's album on...
Merlin: It was the one with, you know, First Art Take, Two Grand Hearts, the one after Frosting on the Beater.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: But, like, I remember, like, being reviewed on All Things Considered and being, like, I was driving home from work, and I was like, God, this is... Wow, this is... You know, remember, it's like hearing your hometown mentioned on TV.
Merlin: Like, it's, like, such a big deal.
Merlin: But with that comes the sense, though, of, like...
Merlin: The sky may be open, to paraphrase you, but it's not unlimited.
Merlin: When you've said that as now we're 30, it really does kind of land on you.
Merlin: Like, oh, now we've gone over the top of the hill and now there's whatever the next thing is.
John: Yeah, I mean, even what's crazy is when you think about Weimar Germany, it only lasted 10 years.
John: You know, like the San Francisco scene in the 60s didn't even last.
John: Summer of Love was good for about three weeks.
Merlin: Seriously, it's like, you know this, but like what happened in 1967, I mean, you know, John Phillips wrote...
Merlin: That terrible, was it Scott McKenzie, that song, if you're going to San Francisco, wear flowers in your hair.
Merlin: That was a naked cash grab song.
Merlin: Like he wrote that song to cash in.
Merlin: I'm putting it strongly, but John Phillips did, you know, he was a businessman.
Merlin: But like the drugs and the sexual assault were already a problem.
Merlin: By like late summer, early fall of 67.
Merlin: And that's why the castor happened in the way that it did is because a lot of people were like, forget it.
Merlin: I'm moving out.
Merlin: This area is crazy.
Merlin: Everybody's on drugs and it's all sex people and drug people.
Merlin: And it's not fun.
Merlin: It's very menacing to be here right now because it was run by hippies and hippies don't know what they're doing and they're selfish.
John: No, they're bad.
John: They're bad at public toilets.
John: I mean, you see those pictures of George Harrison walking through the panhandle with a look on his face like this?
Merlin: Just another English person who comes to San Francisco and goes, is it like this all the time?
Merlin: I've never seen so many amputees crying, shooting up, and shitting at the same time.
Merlin: And that's 6th Street.
Merlin: That's the value you get out of a 6th Street.
John: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
John: I mean, you know, you go to get up into the panhandle, the streets all have different names.
John: It's all the way up there.
Merlin: Wait a minute.
Merlin: All the streets have different names.
Merlin: And this is different from what they're doing over in West Seattle.
John: That's right.
John: But when I look back at that moment in 1999, when I was 30...
John: and i think well what if it had all ended there i would have had a music career
John: and it wouldn't have produced an album it would have produced that western state record that never came out but i would have had all these bands that were part of my community and we had we all knew each other and we were all 30 and everybody looked over at amazon.com which at that point in time had 250 employees
John: and they thought well you know maybe i should straighten up yeah and and put my guitar under the bed and go do some do something else
John: And by whatever grace of God, there is that, I mean, honestly, Chris Walla and Sean Nelson said, why don't we just make one record of your songs just so you have something to put in your hope chest?
John: Oh, it's almost like I'm making a scrapbook for people.
John: that's exactly what it was you know like let's just you know you had a thing and you never made a record let's just make a record you know i think chris was like let me shake out this new tape machine i bought by putting your songs down and then when your grandkids say what did you do in the war yep you can say well we sold 600 copies of this cassette tape
John: and uh and that's how you know that granddad once upon a time uh was cool and because of that granddad because well granddaddy they were very cool part of that same time now it's on you know uh but whatever it is that's exciting just the fact that the three of you mostly and then i guess ben and who else like yeah a lot of other people but the three of you going in to do that is just it so seems so crazy in retrospect
John: It does because it's another one of these things where it's like, well, if I had said, eh, I mean, and I could have absolutely gone like, I mean, you know, let's just let bygones be bygones.
John: i was like sure i guess and then here it is in 2024 and i'm standing in a in the middle of you know obviously a different continent west seattle yeah and having this thing and it's just like how could you couldn't plan it and i want to go back to my high school guidance counselor
John: I want to go back to the principal of my high school or those teachers or whatever, all the people that were like, you know, well, if you don't straighten up and fly right, you're on double secret probation and you're going to end up clean toilets.
John: Oh, just back when you weren't living up to your potential.
John: I wasn't living up to my potential.
John: And just go, look, you couldn't have predicted this.
John: There's no way any of you could have seen this.
Merlin: I'm sorry, was I confused?
Merlin: Do people sing your songs on Friday nights?
Merlin: Maybe I missed that part.
No.
John: And I did.
John: I think I've told the story, but who knows what's in this show now?
John: But, you know, I had that experience of my high school, my favorite high school teacher coming down to Seattle, kind of at the height of my mid 2010s notoriety.
John: And he was like, well, let's meet for lunch.
John: And I was like, okay, I'll be down at this club, you know, come find me.
John: And he came down and it was, I was standing, it was like one of those nights where all of a sudden you can play pool really well.
John: And for three hours, you just run the table and you, and you look around like that with darts.
Merlin: Yeah, right.
John: I'm really bad at darts, except for when I'm periodically briefly good at darts.
John: Briefly good at darts.
John: And I had that a couple of times in my life where it was like, wait a minute, I'm the star of this billiards game, and I've won three in a row, and I'm schooling all these people.
John: Why?
John: I'm not good at this.
John: I'm not good at this.
John: And you know it.
John: You know it.
John: It was one of those where I was standing on a street corner and here's my, uh, here's my high school, my favorite high school teacher, Don Shackelford, who was actually principal of the school at the end.
Merlin: After Frank Kufel.
John: After Kufel.
John: And he's standing there and he's like, all right, well, where are we going to go to dinner?
John: And one after another, like beautiful, cool girl or dude in a leather jacket or whatever in the space of like, like 10 minutes standing there with him, people came over and were like,
Merlin: oh my god keep kissing me and like oh hey what's up bro you know hey here's the six hundred dollars i owe you and my principal is just standing there like what the it sounds staged it sounds a little bit like a kind of like uh um you know like the end of um uh the jimmy stewart movie uh it's a wonderful life yeah where people are bringing literally baskets full of money
John: and it was a thing where i said to him well i you know i could go back into this enormous rock club and they would carry me across the crowd on a giant silver platter covered with fruit whom they bore you shoulders high yeah that's right and people would be pouring wine from a goblet into my mouth or i could go with you to a restaurant and have like pancakes and you know what don i'm i choose you i'm gonna go with you and have these pancakes
John: Anyway, ladies, I'll see you later.
John: Going out with Don.
John: Like a special moment.
John: Lucky Shackleford.
John: Yeah, where Shackleford, of course, walks away and he's like, well, I guess we were all wrong about what was going to happen to him.
John: And I think that was another one of those very rare moments where I'm standing there and I'm like, well, this couldn't get any better.
John: And then, like, some totally cool girl with black eyeliner and, you know, just wearing combat boots and wearing a leather jacket as a dress comes over.
John: And she's like, oh, my God, John, like, you know, here's a big kiss on the lips.
John: And I'm like, oh, well, that was the icing on the cake.
Yeah.
John: This last Friday was kind of like that.
John: I didn't get any kisses, unfortunately.
John: No kisses?
John: No kisses.
John: But you know what?
John: I'm not going to put... There's nothing bad.
John: Nothing bad happened.
John: Not even no kisses.
John: Even no kisses.
Merlin: And you got another show.
Merlin: You got another show.
Merlin: Where's the other show?
Merlin: Where's the next one?
Merlin: It's going to be in a place with normal street names.
Merlin: Where's the next show?
John: No.
John: It's at a bar called Slim's Last Chance.
Merlin: Which is a bar where all the waitresses have... That's like having a place called Titanic Macbeths.
Merlin: It's for sure a biker bar.
John: The waitresses all have teardrop tattoos.
Merlin: You might get some leather kisses there.
John: Put the word out.
John: Leather kisses.
John: It's for sure the kind of bar where... Where are my leather kisses?
Merlin: Collect my kisses.
John: Like the guy at the door was in the derelicts and it's like, well, it's $5 for a show.
John: Like the whole, it's definitely that, but it's also there's an out, there's a big outdoor area.
John: There's a hay bale stage.
John: It's going to be, it's going to be a really good time.
John: A surprisingly good time.
John: Although expectations are low.
John: I got, it's, it is a hay bale stage.
John: I'm going to do the best I can.
Merlin: You know what?
Merlin: At a, at a, at a biker bar, you know, hay bale stage, that might be the good stage.
Merlin: I don't want to be racist.
Merlin: Oh, I see.
John: That's how they, I see.
John: There are two stage.
John: There are two stage.
John: But this is the bar where I'll be standing up on stage and the heckler will go, I thought punk rock was bullshit.
John: And I'll be like, you know what, man?
John: It is.
John: It's been confirmed.
John: I'm the survivor, not you.
Merlin: And you bring that aloha to the hay bale stage.
John: Yeah, that's right.
Merlin: And you can't force people to use it, but you get up on that hay and
Merlin: And you're kicking it out.
Merlin: And, you know, I could definitely see you getting some other kisses.
Merlin: That's the thing.
Merlin: I'm going to look over at Jeff Fielder and I'm going to go, how are you doing?
John: Okay.
John: Okay.