Ep. 551: "Knotty Bits"
John: Hello?
John: Hi, John.
John: Hi, Merlin.
John: How's it going?
John: Oh, I had some technical problems this morning.
John: Yeah, I did.
John: I did.
John: I had to turn it off and turn it back on again.
John: Turn it off, turn it back on again.
John: Yeah.
John: Jeez, I'm sorry.
John: My thing here said, you know, as you were saying, it mutes me automatically every time because it wants me to know that it's being recorded.
John: Oh.
John: And it doesn't want me to know.
John: Right.
John: So it doesn't want me to just go on a Zoom call and not realize I'm being recorded.
John: Yeah.
John: So it mutes me.
John: That's how they got Jeffrey Toobin.
John: That's exactly how they got Jeffrey Toobin.
John: But then also my machine here was like, oh, channel one just isn't working anymore.
John: And it gave me one of those.
John: I didn't even know it had this feature.
John: on the box not in the computer but on the box on the box on the machine it threw up a flat smile emoji in like in like in like the crystal uh display
John: you know whatever that liquid crystal display it gave me like a like a no smile emoji but it wasn't expressly frowning not a frown just like a flat smile it just says hey john mid mid or something right i mean like it said like everything everything's fine i guess it's like asking somebody how they are and they go yeah but that's not what it is because normally just offered it up to you
John: Yeah, in that position, there would be levels.
John: It would be a normal recording.
John: It's a recording device, so it would have... But instead of levels in that space, all of a sudden, I got this, like, hmm, not really doing great.
John: I think of it as a Steve Carell face, like, hmm, mm-hmm.
John: Not so sure.
Merlin: Well, and now that you've gotten it, how do you feel about it?
Merlin: Do you feel like it gave you something actionable to do about it?
Merlin: Did it give you any, as they say, vibes?
Merlin: I'm using a lot of youth language today for some reason.
Merlin: Did you get vibes?
Merlin: Yeah, no cap, man.
John: Yeah.
John: What it did was, because I'm a show business professional,
John: i took the xlr cable out of channel one and just put it in channel two on the fly like that in real time as they say you know the hot plug in it hot plug and so i got it to work but you know it's half of half of sound uh engineering is just is just shooting from the hip that's a full half of it is shooting from the hip
John: Just shooting from the hip.
Merlin: Do they teach you that in schools?
Merlin: Like you go to trade school to learn how to be a professional?
Merlin: Is that something?
Merlin: I mean, because do you have to learn first how to use the scope and then no scope and then from the hip?
Merlin: I honestly don't know.
Merlin: I don't know if you have any kind of extension courses or continuing education that you have to keep up for your certification.
John: Larry Crane, the Portland producer who produces, in addition to records, he produces Tape Op Magazine.
John: Ooh, I know that.
John: I went down and spent a weekend with Larry Crane in Portland many years ago, and he was teaching me how to use sound equipment.
John: the one thing i learned about that i didn't know about already was side chaining oh boy but but i'm gonna write that down i don't think i know about side training even though i knew larry you should i knew all the things he was telling me about but but uh but i didn't know how to do them and i still don't know how to do them but i know about them i just you know it's like i want to it's i shoot i shoot from the hip
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And you need hardware, software, wetware that accommodates that and hopefully like builds upon that.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Well, you don't want to throw out the baby with the bath, as they say.
John: No, you don't.
John: But you do want to spend a lot of money.
John: on things you don't know how to use that's one of the things that makes you a musician is spend money on things you don't know how they work yeah and uh and then uh have those things in bins around your office space and you look at them sometimes you go i never figured out how to use midi why do i have all this midi stuff
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: Right.
John: I've seen people use MIDI.
John: I know it works amazing.
Merlin: Well, it used to be a real big deal.
Merlin: Like when you first started getting your synthesizers, especially for like, as I recall anyway, stuff like sequencers and things like that.
Merlin: But like, I don't know.
Merlin: I mean, I guess MIDI is still out there.
Merlin: It's just you don't see it as much.
Merlin: I think it's important, at least in my mind, and I don't want to get into it.
Merlin: I don't want to get into it, but I'm just going to mention something.
Merlin: The reason we're recording later than usual today is I watched one of those Apple presentations that I watch for my work.
John: I love it when you do that.
John: I remember when Steve Jobs used to do them and you would watch them.
John: I remember him.
John: He used to be at the company for a while, yeah.
John: Oh, yeah.
John: I watched a thing the other day where he was wearing a black turtleneck.
John: Yes.
John: And he said it was one of these things they show you on the internet.
John: He said the problem was that after I left Apple, somebody named John Smeisniak or something.
John: Yeah.
John: Somebody.
John: Somebody took over.
John: I can help anytime you want, but I kind of like just letting you go.
John: And according to Steve...
John: What they did was they thought that a good idea was 90% of making a product.
John: And what Steve was saying was shooting from the hip is 90% of... Well, no, let's see.
John: A good idea...
Merlin: It's okay.
Merlin: You can give me the gist.
Merlin: I'm not that good at maths.
John: A good idea makes the 60s look like the 40s.
John: Unless you've got a good team and that team is working together like a rock crusher.
John: To make us to make the good idea into shiny rocks.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Oh, it's a kind of a kind of electronic rock tumbler.
Merlin: It's like a good team.
John: Digital tumbler.
John: I don't know.
John: It's a tumbler.
John: It's an e-tumbler.
John: And the good idea is the rocks.
John: Or the sand.
Merlin: Oh.
Merlin: Oh.
Merlin: We also had water, I think.
Merlin: And water.
Merlin: They're really loud.
Merlin: I had one, but I stopped using it because it was very, very loud.
Merlin: But that just shows you I'm not ready.
Merlin: I'm not ready to go pro on this.
Merlin: I'm still shooting from the hip.
John: If somebody gave me a bucket of shiny rocks, I'd be so thrilled.
Merlin: I like making them shiny.
Merlin: That's the thing.
Merlin: I like making things be a way.
Merlin: You're saying you go to the Mineral and Geode show.
Merlin: and you can buy yourself some shiny rocks, you're in for that, especially if they're complementary rocks.
John: Well, this is the problem, though.
John: When you get home with a bucket of shiny rocks, what are you going to do with them?
John: That's a good question.
Merlin: I would use it to pot a small aloe plant.
John: So you'd put them in a pot?
John: What a good idea.
John: They're like a mulch.
Merlin: Well, yeah.
Merlin: I mean, it's too much to get into, you know, on a show of this length.
Merlin: But, you know, all my projects are connected, and that's something I feel like a lot of people, including my family, have trouble understanding that it's all connected.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: It's so all connected.
Merlin: Well, I know you know this, and I suspect your family is equally uninterested in the way that everything's connected.
Merlin: They don't understand.
Merlin: They don't want to understand.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: I do.
Merlin: I do.
Merlin: But as somebody who did spend 90 minutes watching one of those presentations, and I don't know, but like, I... What did you learn?
Merlin: Well, you know, it's...
Merlin: A lot of it is like, you know, here's something you can do with your phone.
Merlin: Here's something you could do with your phone.
Merlin: And I wouldn't be the first person who said, you know, I'm due for a new iPhone.
Merlin: So I'll get this new iPhone and I'll take lots of 4K HD videos and it'll have cinematic mode.
Merlin: And I know you don't need to know all this stuff, but it's the equivalent of like somebody saying, hey, you want a fair light that's twice as powerful?
Merlin: And you're like, yeah, I would love that.
John: But like, it's still... Thanks for putting that into...
Merlin: Just synthesizer terms for me?
Merlin: Yes.
Merlin: An emulator, if you like, an emu.
Merlin: But the orchestra stab comes stock on all of them, and it won't sound any better.
Merlin: It's the Rites of Spring.
Merlin: Sorry, the Rite of Spring.
Merlin: One's a band, one's a piece of music.
Merlin: It's the Rite of Spring orchestra stab.
Merlin: People have been using since Art of Noise, at least.
Merlin: And it's digital.
Merlin: So, like, it's not going to get that much better.
Merlin: I guess what I'm saying is, you know, there's that thing some people say.
Merlin: It's kind of like a Jurassic Park type situation, you know.
Merlin: Just because you could do it doesn't mean you should do it, you know.
Merlin: Oh, boy.
Merlin: And conversely, the reciprocal property of that is I oughtn't always be looking for a new thing I could potentially do.
Merlin: Because in the grand scheme, that can be nice, especially when you're young and you don't understand limitations in life.
Merlin: You don't understand boundaries.
Merlin: But, like, maybe that's good.
Merlin: And, you know, maybe you will go shoot a video for whatever the weekend is.
Merlin: You'll shoot that with a phone.
Merlin: And we got to see that video.
Merlin: That's great.
Merlin: But I'm not criticizing anybody, but I do think it's kind of important to weigh...
Merlin: how do you weigh this on the one hand, like, oh, I don't want to become one of those cranks that just hates anything new and unfamiliar.
Merlin: But then also, like, it's hard sometimes not to chase the shiny objects that are put into your point of view.
Merlin: Because then also there's a certain level of like, oh, then you're made to feel like a weirdo because you can't shoot cinematic, you know, 4K that nobody actually shoots.
John: I mean, first of all, my two takeaways are I'm generally not bold enough to use the word oughtn't.
John: And I feel like all those people that are using 4K video or whatever, how many of them are bold enough to say oughtn't?
John: I mean, it's appropriate to say.
Merlin: John, I can tell you this just off the dome, single digits.
Merlin: I don't mean single digits percentage.
Merlin: I mean, extant in situ.
Merlin: There are nine people that will use that very good James Thurber type word.
John: It's a great word, autent.
John: It's practically an Orphank.
John: People should be out there talking about it.
John: I would walk up to that autent on my own, and like a lot of words like that, I would go, autent?
John: Am I really?
John: It's like napping.
John: It takes practice.
John: I'd walk around it.
John: I'd find another way.
John: I'd say, autent not.
Merlin: It feels like a bridge too far in terms of sounding like a fancy lad.
John: Oh, but it's so good.
John: It just lands.
John: Yeah.
John: But also, what a layperson wants to know is when you're watching an Apple thing and Steve Ballmer's up there dancing around.
John: Yeah, he loves developer Steve Ballmer.
John: Yeah, look at all the 4Ks.
John: I'm sitting in the audience going, do I need to buy a new adapter?
John: That's the only thing I care about.
John: Do I have to buy a new plug for this?
Merlin: You don't feel like this is somewhat, to some extent, sort of settled law at this point that it's going to be lightning and you'll get used to it.
Merlin: It's not the 30 pin days anymore.
John: I don't know, man.
John: You know, my stupid truck that I don't like had two holes.
John: And one of them was USB and one of them was, I think... Gas?
John: Some kind of lightning.
John: Oh.
John: And I had somehow around here a cable that had USB on one end and lightning on the other for my new phone.
John: Right.
John: And I don't think I had one that had lightning on both sides.
John: Right.
John: When you say USB, you're talking about the old school kind of boxy.
John: Yeah, the boxy one.
John: Yeah, USB-A, yeah.
John: It used to be that you never knew which side was up.
John: It was always the other side.
Merlin: It seems like it should be a 50% chance, but in practice, I get it wrong a lot more than 50% of the time, and I've learned that's because of my timidity.
John: Oh, you're too timid to just go in and flip at the last minute?
Merlin: I hate to give you advice in public, John, but here's my advice to you.
Merlin: Whenever you have to plug in a USB-A, act like it's going to work the first time.
Merlin: Because as you're going in, you're like, oh, it's probably the other side.
Merlin: And then you know what happens?
Merlin: Then you have to do it three times because you were too timid on the first try.
John: I feel like the new ones have tops and bottoms, although maybe I'm wrong.
John: Not this one.
John: The one I'm looking at here doesn't.
John: Anyway, it stopped working, and I had, although I'd resisted the computer...
John: screen for a long time i'd gotten so that i was used to it and i got so that i was like hey siri tell me about whoa whoa whoa whoa let's let's not be cute about this your truck you don't like has car play yeah it does i'm so fucking envious yeah and i'm like hey hey tell me you know what's the best uh chili dog place in the south end of town and she would say i found six chili dog places
John: I wish.
John: Yeah.
John: And then she would say, do you want to go to this one?
John: Imagine having choices.
John: I know, six.
John: Shit.
John: There's not six in Western Washington.
John: And I would say, yeah, take me there.
Merlin: We're fixing the wrong fucking problems, Joe.
Merlin: Don't worry about cinematic 4K HD.
John: Don't worry about chili dog places.
John: What kind of billionaires do we have in this world where there's not one, just one, who's like, you know what I'm going to do?
John: Could you and Jason talk to Paul Allen's family about this, maybe?
John: Jason knows them about as much as I know a handball court nearby.
I don't.
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Merlin: Securing a blog, no thank you.
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Merlin: roderick on the line and all the great shows hey hey siri where's the nearest handball court ask her right now or you ask somebody else don't you you ask uh far away let me try this hey google where's stop stop i know you don't know i know stop stop hey google where's the closest handball court oh no
Merlin: I'll send them to Merlin's iPhone.
Merlin: Oh, boo.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Well, you know, they're going to fix all that now with these new ones.
Merlin: These new, the Pros and the Pluses and the Maxes.
Merlin: And they got all kinds of nits.
Merlin: The watches can go down to one nit now.
Merlin: What's a nit?
Merlin: A nit, I think, is... God damn it.
Merlin: Why do I ever say any... I don't care about any of this.
Merlin: I have to act like this is fascinating on some level.
Merlin: I want to know what a nit is now.
Merlin: I think a nit is a measurement...
Merlin: as we say in Ohio, of brightness, I think.
Merlin: Now, what's critical is that I don't care.
Merlin: So it's vital that no one contact me to clarify that.
Merlin: That's the thing, you know, right?
John: It's like you and Larry.
Merlin: And by the way, we didn't mention tape op.
Merlin: Tape op, I know, or I recall as being a zine that was about home recordings, especially for tracking.
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: And they would put out compilations and stuff, right?
John: That's right.
John: Well, but they, you know, they had, it was a whole concept.
Merlin: But it was, I mean, it was almost like, I don't know.
Merlin: I think my friend, I think, you know, Grant, my friend Grant, like you don't know him.
Merlin: I think Grant was really into that.
Merlin: I mean, obviously I was a four tracker, you know, starting in college.
Merlin: I didn't know if you were going to run with it.
Merlin: Time travel.
Merlin: I have a John Vanderslice button on my refrigerator.
Merlin: Oh, isn't that cute?
Merlin: When you click it, he shows up.
Merlin: I should say a badge or pin, as you say.
Merlin: A John Vanderslice button.
Merlin: I'm going to write that down.
Merlin: Because I think there's times you can get a little hug.
Merlin: Hey, man.
Merlin: Hey, man.
Merlin: Hey, I love you, man.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: I don't know from nits.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: I really do just want people to be happy, you know?
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: Do you know how far a league is?
Merlin: Oh, wait.
John: Is this one of those confusing ones like a parsec?
John: Well, somebody asked me, like, 20,000 leagues under the sea, how much is a league?
Yeah.
Merlin: I thought a league was a measurement.
Merlin: See, the problem is like parsecs, right?
Merlin: Where parsecs are actually, it's one, you know, like you get those things like a knot.
Merlin: You take a knot in nautical terms.
Merlin: Nautical.
Merlin: Nautical.
Merlin: Nautical.
Merlin: And that's confusing to people because a knot is not a measure of distance.
Merlin: It's sort of like saying miles per hour.
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: It's a measure of time.
John: Yeah.
John: It's a measure of knots is what it is.
John: It is what it is.
John: This is this.
John: Right.
John: Nautical.
John: Well, you know, Ariella has always talked about when she retires, she wants to open one of these little stores, these cute stores in one of these cute little Washington towns called Naughty Bits, except spelled with a K. That is so hot.
John: Will she be working there?
John: Oh, yeah.
John: She'll work behind the counter.
Merlin: Sign me up for a membership card, because I will be patronizing.
Merlin: Little baby doll dresses that have anchors.
Merlin: Oh, come on.
Merlin: I'm telling you.
Merlin: You get to shout, woof.
Merlin: See?
Merlin: Oh, man.
Merlin: Oh, boy, that's a good idea.
John: That's a really good idea.
John: Retail's hard, though.
John: Retail is very difficult.
John: See, that's what I keep telling her.
John: I'm like, you don't want to give yourself a job.
Merlin: You don't want to sit there all day.
Merlin: I tell this to my kids all the time.
Merlin: I mean, I always use the example of a dear friend of mine in college who was a really smart guy, president of our class.
Merlin: And he'd always known he was going to be a lawyer.
Merlin: Long story short, he didn't realize until he was studying for the bar how much he disliked being around other lawyers.
Merlin: which is not the kind of thing, like if you're doing good in bio in 10th grade, 10th grade, that doesn't mean you're going to be a great physician because maybe you understandably don't like other physicians.
Merlin: Well, I'll tell you.
Merlin: And like the thing is with retail, I think we've talked about this with things like the retail of like podcast shirts where it's like, I don't mean this to sound as a phrase I have used and I will continue to use is I am not a merchant.
Merlin: or more saliently sometimes, if I'm feeling full of beans, I will say, look, I'm not a store.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: And if I were a store... Imagine the Merlin store.
Merlin: No.
Merlin: Get out!
Merlin: Oh, my God.
Merlin: You like me wrong.
Merlin: You like this place wrong.
Merlin: Leave.
Merlin: You're not welcome here.
John: You have not been approved for this.
John: I've banned your IP address.
John: It'd be like one of those stores in Union Square where you walk up to the door and the person behind has to look out the glass and buzz you in.
Merlin: Oh, like an uncut gems type situation.
John: Yeah, where it's like, if you want to go into the Louis Vuitton store.
Merlin: It's a store now where you have to make appointments at one of the fancy stores downtown.
Merlin: They only take appointments.
Merlin: People are mad about that.
Merlin: But, you know, I don't know.
Merlin: I started discovering a pretty long time ago, and I continue to realize and try to operationalize my various leavings and learnings having to do with...
Merlin: the we that we think we are, the I that I think I am, versus the one that the world is trying to sell me.
Merlin: Not sell me, but I don't want to sound cynical about it, but I've developed all kinds of feelings about being herded by other people toward whom I'm supposed to be.
Merlin: And I hope it hasn't made me a hard, or as I say, difficult person.
Merlin: A hard man.
Merlin: Hard.
Merlin: But I do think it's something to keep in mind.
Merlin: And I don't know.
Merlin: I just...
Merlin: so tape op, but now everything's digital.
Merlin: You got it on your phone.
John: It's crazy.
John: Yeah.
John: That's the thing.
John: It's on the new phone too.
John: It's a, it's down to the knits, you know, Larry, Larry Crane never, never even knew that knits were going to come along, but there they are.
John: But tape op still keeps coming into my mailbox every, every month.
John: Do you teach you how to bounce?
John: You don't have to anymore.
John: It's, as Steve Fisk said, 999 levels of undo.
John: You can undo, you can go... Are you talking about Carlton Fisk, the guy at Apple?
John: No, Carlton Fisk.
John: No, come on, who are you talking about?
John: Steve Ballmer's friend.
Merlin: Steve Ballmer's friend, Carlton Fisk.
Merlin: Yeah, Steve Fisk.
Merlin: And you've got Ted Kaczynski, Ted Kuzuski, you've got Cesar Geronimo, all the big hitters.
Merlin: See, those are all the big hitters.
Merlin: That's the major league right there.
Merlin: It is a major, major league.
Merlin: And I'm not sure.
Merlin: I'm not actually trying to make any point with this because I have so many points to make about this.
Merlin: It would not be effective for me to try and make one about this.
John: I see what you're saying.
Merlin: But I enjoy, theoretically, learning what's new.
John: Well, here's the thing about a league.
John: Okay.
John: A league is actually, because you think 20,000 leagues under the sea, how far can that be?
John: A league's got to be like 10 yards or something.
John: Well, this is the thing.
John: A league is actually really far.
John: 20,000 leagues under the sea would be 60,000 miles under the sea.
John: I see.
John: And what it means is not that you're going down 20,000 leagues.
John: It's that once you're in the submarine, you go around the earth, you travel 20,000 leagues.
John: That's a major league.
John: Your journey.
John: That is a major league.
John: It's a major amount of leagues.
John: And so I think a lot of people, when they haven't read it, they think, oh, 20,000 leagues under the sea, he must be talking about how deep in the sea.
John: Right.
John: But I think you can go 20,000 leagues under the sea and you're only 10 feet deep.
Merlin: Oh, now I understand.
Merlin: You're saying it's the wrong axis.
Merlin: Yes, exactly.
Merlin: It means he traveled 20,000 leagues whilst under the sea.
John: Whilst under the sea.
John: Under the sea.
John: We can't afford that.
John: He probably had.
John: No, don't infringe on that copyright.
John: He probably had his periscope up the entire time.
John: He was at periscope depth the entire time.
John: Except he went 60,000 miles, which is like around the world a couple of times.
Merlin: You know, we could have settled all of this a long time ago.
Merlin: Do we really need all these different systems?
Merlin: I guess we do.
Merlin: There's something, again, it's our monthly use of the word shibboleth.
Merlin: I guess it's a shibboleth amongst semen.
Merlin: Hmm?
Merlin: like it's like a you know like to find uh-huh okay all right uh-huh okay to destroy the earth but but but captain if we go down 20 000 leagues you heard my order one ping only
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: It's sometimes, I don't know.
Merlin: Like, I try really hard not to get weird about stuff.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: It doesn't suit me.
Merlin: Do you, though?
Merlin: Not hard enough, I think.
Merlin: But, like, the thing is, what you're seeing here, it's like, well, like they say, speaking of knots, not nautical things, it's like the iceberg.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Right ahead.
Merlin: Iceberg right ahead.
Merlin: Remember, it was always in the commercials for Titanic.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Merlin: You hear the guy going iceberg right ahead.
Merlin: Right ahead.
Merlin: But I don't know.
Merlin: I just, I do try, but you have no idea how much iceberg there is under the water.
Merlin: You have no idea how many things I don't tell you my opinion.
Merlin: Not you, but the world has no idea how many things I'm not giving an opinion about.
Merlin: And given that it all is slightly related.
Yeah.
John: I know you don't like to talk about your fans, but I think hearing from them a lot because there's no way to reach you, and so they talk to me.
Merlin: Aw, jeez, John, haven't we talked about this, buddy?
John: I know you don't like to hear about it, but let me tell you, I think a lot of them actually do have a sense of the iceberg.
Merlin: Oh, and consequently dot, dot, dot.
John: Well, I think, you know, I think there are a lot of them.
Merlin: Then when we dial it down, dial it down, get more normal, right?
John: Well, see, there are a lot of them that just walk around.
John: They're also just walking around in the world and talking to normal people.
Merlin: Well, they got ideas, too.
Merlin: They just don't even know they have ideas yet because people keep telling them what they're supposed to do.
Merlin: Got to go by this phone.
John: But, you know, I think the normals are not who you're talking to.
John: I agree.
John: You're talking to a group of people that are with you all the way.
Merlin: That's why my new retail store in Union Square is being sued by so many government agencies for who's not allowed to come in.
John: Yeah.
John: And the thing is, they don't know what they don't know what hand sign to make out front.
John: They're like, hey, it's me.
John: And you're like, no.
John: And they're like, don't get cute.
John: They're doing like seven gang signs out there.
John: Like, which one is the right one?
John: I know.
John: And you're like, none of them.
John: I don't know if I ask a lot, but I do imply a lot.
Merlin: There's a lot of implication.
Merlin: I told somebody last week, I talked to somebody who met you not very long ago.
Merlin: Who met me?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: And I said to that person, like I often say to people who... Are they from Germany?
Merlin: No.
Merlin: But that's a good point.
Merlin: and i said you know i said you know pretty great guy right like isn't he like surprisingly like warm and fun to hang out with in person not surprisingly but you know surprisingly sure sure sure and he's like yeah he was he was really really nice and he was very like you know engaged in the conversation i'm like yeah that's my guy we're the only two people left in america that are engaged in a conversation
Merlin: You wouldn't think.
John: You wouldn't think.
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: There might be more out there, but I can't listen to every podcast.
Merlin: I like to engage with people.
John: I love to engage with people.
Merlin: I wish I could do it more.
Merlin: I really do really enjoy it.
Merlin: It's just everyone on the Internet, any way they communicate is so weird and difficult to deal with because before you can talk to anybody about anything.
Merlin: You know, something I like to say, John, and I realize this is a controversial point of view.
Merlin: We don't have time to get into it today.
Merlin: Not everything is everything, and everything is not everything.
Merlin: And you can't get people to understand that.
Merlin: Not everything is everything, and everything is not everything.
Merlin: So, like, first we've got to get through all these different layers of, like, what is it you really want to say?
Merlin: Or, like, what... You know what I mean?
Merlin: Like, sometimes you've got to play... And then I think my seeming, like, a difficult person to deal with sometimes probably makes that worse.
Merlin: But I'm only like that with people who aren't trying.
Merlin: I'm a lot like the people of France, where if you try, you know, I'll play along.
Merlin: Oh, sure.
Merlin: Sure, sure, sure.
Merlin: But you just can't come up and go, like, you know...
Merlin: uh wait what's a joke from earlier that i can refer to um something about something about the iphone or something something about something oh no um um death of american four four tracker that's yeah hey go back to that and what's going on here the prices are high in paris and i'm confused where can i buy a john van der slice album because apparently i don't know thank you thank you
John: Have you noticed, I just noticed, you know how you notice things sometimes.
John: Oh, God, do I notice things?
John: I just noticed that I said, right, right, right, a couple of times.
John: Right, right, right.
John: Cool, cool, cool.
John: How often do I do that?
John: Is that a thing I've been doing for a long time?
Merlin: No, you started a new thing in the last six months or a year where you...
Merlin: Where you do sort of like kind of agree with me more in terms of like keeping the show going.
Merlin: But I don't I don't you're not a sort of person, which I appreciate.
Merlin: Obviously, I've got to put this thing out today.
Merlin: But like, it's, you know, it is.
Merlin: That's not a thing.
Merlin: It's kind of a little bit of a what's a Jonathan was Jonathan Google.
John: Cool, cool, cool.
John: Oh, yeah, Jonathan from The Long Winters.
John: Yeah, Jonathan Rothman.
John: Yeah, cool, cool, cool, cool.
John: That was his response to a lot of things.
Merlin: It was.
Merlin: And that's what it reminds me of.
Merlin: And in person, if you're out eating Thai food or whatever, you're not the sort of person who goes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: No, no, you know, lately, just lately, just the last few years, I have stopped disagreeing with people almost entirely.
Merlin: It's the only way to quote the great Stuart Lee for A Quiet Life.
Merlin: It's the only way to get through it.
Merlin: It's just, you know, and I'm not going to actually directly quote.
Merlin: Do you ever watch Stuart Lee?
Merlin: Do you like comedy?
Merlin: I do like comedy and I do like Stuart Lee.
Merlin: I'll send you some stuff.
Merlin: Yeah, please do.
Merlin: Okay.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: He's talking about when you're in the back of a cab with the racist cab driver.
Merlin: And because I have watched this bit a dozen times, I do know these days you can't even say you're English anymore.
Merlin: You get arrested and thrown in jail.
Merlin: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Well, but I'm not even trying not to.
Merlin: It's terrible.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Like you just agree with the cab driver, you know, just for a quiet life.
Merlin: Oh, yeah.
Merlin: I have had a friend who has an electrified ham face.
Merlin: That must be awful.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: You just say anything to just get through it because there's no way that we can settle anything approaching what it is that you find so easy to just bring up with a stranger.
John: Yeah, well, somebody called me out the other day because they were saying something, not called me out, but noticed they were saying something and I went, uh-huh.
John: Oh, that's a great response.
John: They said, hey, you've been doing that a lot lately.
John: And I said, what?
John: And they said, when I'm saying something, you just go, uh-huh.
John: And I don't know what that means.
John: And I was like, uh-huh.
John: And I just realized.
John: Has this happened more than once?
Uh-huh.
John: And so I've been doing that.
Merlin: Because it kind of sounds like you're just saying, I hear what you're saying.
John: That's all it is.
Merlin: And I'm keeping the road open for you to keep going with whatever it is.
John: Uh-huh.
John: Uh-huh.
John: And so anybody, anybody now, I go, uh-huh, for most of what they're saying.
John: Oh, that's almost all I say to people in responses.
John: It's some version of like, uh-huh, or huh, or hmm.
John: or yeah oh uh-huh or huh and and it's great it just keeps i'm just floating through life i feel like i'm i'm sitting crisscross applesauce on a cloud and i just all i'm saying is uh-huh and nobody that's not a vote right nobody takes that and says uh you know like rolls up the scroll and goes like well i got john on this i all he said was uh-huh
John: And I'm still listening.
John: I'm still learning.
John: I'm still hearing what you're saying.
Merlin: Let's get this back to that radio language that I never remember the official name for.
Merlin: But you're giving an Ack or a Roger in some ways.
Merlin: You're going, yeah, I heard what you said.
Merlin: Roger.
Merlin: Roger.
Merlin: I mean, I'm not giving you a Wilco.
John: Not this early in the conversation.
John: No, and it's really lovely, and it works for everybody.
John: There's not a single person in the world that doesn't want to hear an uh-huh, but all it is is an encouragement for them to keep going, or at least it allows them to keep going.
John: That's a way of saying, I'm just going to stay out of your way.
John: I'm out of your way.
John: I'm here to hear you.
John: I say this to my daughter all the time.
John: The more they talk...
John: the more you learn about them.
John: Why do you care if they learn about you?
John: Yes.
John: Yes.
Merlin: That's been credited to many people, including Napoleon, but never stop someone, you know, never stop your enemy when they're making a mistake.
John: That's right.
John: And never stop somebody when they're telling you everything about themselves.
John: Yes.
John: Just to tell them about yourself, because if they want to know about you, they'll ask.
John: And so why do you want them to know about you?
John: That's the question you have to ask yourself.
Merlin: I think a lot of people don't know about this larger superset of thought technologies, which is the, like, because what you're doing also, if I could say, and I hate to give it away here for free, but, like, part of it is also, like, you're...
Merlin: You're also in some ways creating boundaries, but you're being amiable.
Merlin: You're listening.
Merlin: You're saying, uh-huh.
Merlin: And like you say, if somebody wants, you have to also then gauge what kind of conversation is this going to be?
Merlin: Is this a crazy racist cab driver?
Merlin: That's right.
Merlin: Is this my regular person?
Merlin: Like you have to develop that kind of almost like code switching with people.
John: Well, and there's so many people you meet, for instance, at a party who just start talking about themselves.
John: Let me tell you a little bit about my background.
John: And so many people get offended by that, right?
John: They're like, I went to this party and I talked to this guy and he never asked me a single thing about myself.
John: He just talked about himself.
John: And I always go, uh-huh.
Yeah.
John: Because who cares?
John: You just learned all about this guy for free, and you didn't have to spend any time talking about yourself.
John: Don't you consider that like a massive bonus?
Merlin: I do like fairly light herding in a situation like that.
John: Oh, yes.
John: So much.
John: You try to tell people.
Merlin: Tell me more about that.
Merlin: Well, yeah, honestly, though, the things like, oh, was that as bad as it sounds?
Merlin: And, like, you must have thought you wouldn't survive that.
Merlin: And, boy, that's a strange place to find a light bulb or whatever.
Merlin: Like, you can engage with that person.
Merlin: It shows that you're listening.
Merlin: And it encourages them to go places they think will be interesting with it.
John: Sure.
John: You know, one of my favorites when somebody's going on is I say, did any of your grandmothers go to college?
Right.
John: Whoa, that's good.
John: Because that really, everybody then has to stop and think.
John: Because, you know, most of... We're in that weird era.
John: Gives you a minute to breathe, too.
John: And the thing about Generation X is that we are the last generation probably...
John: Where you can, a lot of us can look back and go, huh, none of my grandparents went to college or only one did or two of them did.
John: Yeah, none of mine did.
John: Yeah, there it is.
John: And I don't think any of our, you know, but certainly none of our grandchildren are going to have that option.
John: They're going to say all of my grandparents went to college.
John: So we're the last people that are directly connected to a universe where the majority- We're connecting the haves and the have-nots, or the have-hadents.
John: Once again, we're the sinew here, where when I look back, only, well, neither of my grandmothers went to college, and both of my grandfathers did.
John: But my mother, on her side of the family, is the first woman in my line to have gone to college.
John: My mother.
Merlin: My mother-in-law went to college.
Merlin: My dad had some college.
Merlin: My uncle graduated from UC and got a master's degree.
Merlin: But I think he's the only one that finished college.
Merlin: Finished college.
Merlin: In my blood family.
Merlin: I'm trying to think of other ones.
Merlin: Did my cousins finish?
Merlin: I don't think so.
John: But this is one of those things where if you're sitting and talking to somebody and they're just like off on some leg on there, you go, did any of your grandparents?
John: And depending on how old they are, I bet you most millenniums are going to say, yeah.
John: My grandparents went to college.
John: You know, I'm sorry.
John: Most millenniums that are living in San Francisco and trying to get buzzed into the Louis Vuitton store.
John: I know there are a lot of people listening to the show who didn't go to college themselves.
Merlin: They're out there waiting right now.
Merlin: One in, one out.
Merlin: That's their policy.
John: Well, and they're saying, and the thing is they know that I know that they are there.
John: And I'm not talking, I'm not saying that anybody's grandparents needed to go to college.
John: I'm saying most of them didn't.
John: You don't need to do anything but die.
John: I didn't need to go to college.
John: I was doing all this.
John: How many colleges did your grandfather go to?
John: My grandfather, my grandfather, my dad's dad went to college, and the whole time, I think the only thing he was doing there was developing a lie about his life.
John: You know, he was just like, oh, what else can I slap onto this that sounds impressive that has nothing to do with it?
John: Yeah, talk about a different time.
John: You know, it was hard to look things up back then.
John: It was really hard, right?
Merlin: Yeah, you could get away with kind of a lot more, I think, in those days.
John: There's one person listening to this show who used to work at the College of Worcester in Ohio who I met one time on the campus of the College of Worcester because I was doing that thing where I was posting a picture and he was like, hey, I work here.
John: I'm like 150 yards from where you are right now.
John: And I said, come on down the stairs.
John: I'd like to wear your skin.
John: And so he came down.
John: Yeah, one of those ad hoc one-on-one meetups you like.
John: Yeah, we had a little meetup out in the quad.
John: And I said, yeah, my grandfather went here.
John: And he was like, oh, I work in the office.
John: And then he sent me my grandfather's file.
John: Oh, boy.
John: From the College of Worcester, which was full of documents from the Alumni Association going, God, this guy's a pain in the ass.
John: Really?
John: Oh, yeah, all this stuff.
John: And so this person... He became a problem senior.
John: He was.
John: And this listener who worked at the College of Worcester suddenly knew as much about my grandfather's time in college as I did.
John: See, that didn't happen in the 30s as much.
John: Unless you were Sam Spade or something.
John: That's the thing.
John: That wouldn't have happened unless I had been posting pictures on the campus.
John: Otherwise, it would have just... That file would have gotten thrown into a dumpster one day.
John: And now...
John: Hell, it's all over the country.
John: So that's the thing about now.
John: That's the thing about now.
John: But my daughter, she had great grandmothers going to college.
John: That's crazy.
John: Yeah, that's nuts.
John: But not us.
John: Not us, because we fought in two world wars.
John: Yes, we did.
John: If it wasn't for us, they'd all be speaking German.
John: Is that right?
John: Yeah, because of Generation X, we stood athwart the Mediterranean.
John: We kept them in.
John: We penned them in.
John: Right.
John: That was our Austerlitz.
John: That was our Austerlitz.
John: That's right.
John: Uncover the cannons.
John: That's exactly it.
John: Yeah, I think about that.
John: So, I mean, I feel that way a lot.
John: One of the things I'm trying, because I know you can't teach a kid anything.
John: You just have to stand aside and let them, you know, steamroll over the world.
John: But you can throw some stuff out there as they go by.
John: And one of them is, what do you care?
John: What do you care?
Merlin: I don't know how I feel about this because I'm just making it up.
Merlin: But I think it's almost impossible to teach one's own kid anything, which is good to learn early.
Merlin: And most people don't learn it at all.
Merlin: But do you suppose you might be able to help other kids?
Merlin: Because it's sort of like when our kid would go over to his aunt.
Merlin: I say aunt.
Merlin: Our family says aunt.
Merlin: I hate it.
Merlin: But go over to the aunt's house and like, our kid will try all kinds of food.
Merlin: Our kid will get on a trampoline, do whatever.
Merlin: Oh, because it's Auntie Susie.
Merlin: And with Auntie Susie, we try things.
Merlin: Whereas with us, time was, you know what I'm saying?
Merlin: So do you think you have a role as a kind of proxy problematic grandfather for other people, regardless of generation, where you could be giving them some wisdom, some leavings and learnings?
John: Well, the thing is, the little one now is smart enough and like sardonic enough that she goes, well, that's fine for you to say who spends all week telling stories to tens of thousands of people.
John: It's fine for you to go to a party and not care what the guy learns about you.
John: But, you know, the rest of us only get a couple of opportunities to tell our stories in the course.
Merlin: They don't see what's standing right in front of them, you know.
John: And I'm like, well, I don't know.
John: Start a podcast.
John: You wouldn't be the only one.
Merlin: Yeah, no, I don't really have any role in helping people.
Merlin: But I do try because, like, I want to be helped.
Merlin: You know what I mean?
Merlin: I want to be helped, but kind of on my own terms.
Merlin: And I think that puts people off a little bit.
John: I want to be helped, but on my own terms.
John: Well, can I just say, think about going to the doctor.
John: I just did.
John: I just went.
John: So maybe what you're about to say is applicable.
Merlin: You actually thought about it and did.
Merlin: But like in that case, as I think we've previously stipulated, I should be able to go in there and it's, boy, I was about to say it's like going to a sex worker, but I've never done that.
Merlin: So I can't say, but you should be able, let's say it this way.
Merlin: It's like getting a burger.
Merlin: I should go in there and at the very least be able to say, I should be able to go into McDonald's and say, I want chicken nuggets, but not a Big Mac.
Merlin: I don't want to talk about Big Macs.
Merlin: And with the doctor, I think you should be able to go in there and say, I want you to renew this prescription, but I don't want to talk about any of the tests I was supposed to get.
John: I see.
John: You should be able to, you know, again, boundaries are so important, especially with doctors.
John: But see, I'm the other way.
John: I go in and I'm like, you're the professional.
John: You tell me.
John: You take as much blood out of me as you want.
John: Test it all day.
John: You'll make more.
John: I don't know what it all means.
John: You know, I've never been to a sex worker either in the context of one that I didn't know already.
John: And my feeling is from talking... That's a very interesting way to put it.
John: To talk to other people who have gone to those things, I feel like it's like... Careful.
John: No, not those things.
Merlin: I know, but I'm just saying, sometimes you like to crack wise, and I don't want you to hurt my friendship with the only friend that I have right now by making a crack.
John: You're absolutely right.
John: I'm not making any cracks.
John: But, you know, I'm in the rock and roll business.
John: You are.
John: I know a lot of people that are on both sides of the aisle there in that transaction.
John: And my understanding is if you go like you're going to the doctor and you say, oh, I just want chicken nuggets.
John: I don't want a Big Mac.
John: That is absolutely fine.
John: But the quality of chicken nuggets you're going to get is a further negotiation.
John: Because they peg you as a sucker?
John: Well, the thing is, you know, sometimes you get a bad nugget.
John: Oh, heck yeah.
John: Right?
John: And over the years, if you put all the bad nuggets you've gotten together in one Bastic, and you're like, here, this is... But we don't think of it that way.
John: No, we don't.
John: That's right.
John: This is a Bastic of chicken nuggets.
John: Yes.
John: But every one of them is one of those ones that you're like, oh, what part of the chicken was that?
Merlin: What are the chances?
John: Yeah.
John: Oh, no.
John: And somebody who actually worked at that Dr. McDonald's would know that.
John: Exactly.
John: We're on a bad batch right now.
John: When you go to the doctor of sex workers and you say, I want the nuggets, you also then, I think, I think this is something I am only guessing, but I think you then have to say, I want the good nuggets.
John: Like it's like in Fight Club where you're like, I, you know, I want the clean soup.
John: You don't want the clam chowder.
John: Like, don't order the clam chowder.
John: Oh, oh, oh, oh.
Merlin: Well, I think about when, it wasn't Grey Worm, but when one of the Unsullied goes to the sex worker house and he mainly just wants to cuddle.
John: Yeah, they just want petting.
John: They just want petting.
John: Can you do that?
John: I think so.
Merlin: Like, what if you just want to be soothed?
Merlin: There are a lot of places in the world, I think.
Merlin: Is that considered?
Merlin: See, I don't want to.
Merlin: I'm not trying to put anybody off.
Merlin: I'm not trying to make anybody feel bad about their life.
Merlin: But like that seems like somewhere between a doctor and a sex worker that I could because, you know, sometimes you get a candy striper that comes in and flush your pillow.
John: that's it could i just take off my shirt and lay on you for a while i'm somebody who really needs to be soothed i want to be soothed i only learned that as a grown-up i didn't know that before because i have not been sued i bet you rejected it i'm gonna guess well because i didn't know how to accept it because i'd never i'd never gotten it before and so it took me a while to realize that i wanted somebody to pet my hair and tell me it was going to be okay
John: And I have in my life not chosen very many people who do that.
John: And the people around me still don't do it.
John: And so I spend many hours a day sitting here just kind of, there's a part of me going, I wish somebody was petting my hair and telling me I was going to be okay.
John: And I don't know if there was a stand right up here, like Lucy Van Pelt.
John: It's a soothing five cents, the soother is in.
John: Yeah, that I could go sit in a chair and just have Lucy pat my hair and tell me it was going to be okay.
John: And that Lucy would be perfect because I'm not sure I would believe her.
John: And that's important to my process.
Merlin: Oh, that you have a sort of built-in rejection.
John: There's a little bit of doubt, you know, like, is it going to be okay?
John: Well, if she's telling me, like, maybe I wouldn't know.
John: I wouldn't know what to do with somebody that really thought it was going to be okay.
John: Oh, it might be too much.
John: You know what I mean?
Merlin: You might feel a little bit like, oh, I need some distance now.
John: But then, you know, you get up, you pay her the five cents, and then you're back, you know.
John: Trying to get your kite out of the tree.
John: Yeah, you're doing what you normally do, and there's not somebody following you around the house going like, what are you thinking about right now?
Merlin: I learned about it.
Merlin: thought technology a while back there's an article in the New York Times and I don't normally so much I don't find myself attracted to articles like this but sometimes it finds a place in your life long story short here's the article this is the you know of course it's one of those like here's the questions you need to ask about blah blah blah in a relationship but here's the thing yeah
Merlin: At least I, and I think Madeline, have found this to be a useful thing.
Merlin: When somebody is, however they're being... You're talking about a backyard cabin?
Merlin: Is that what that's called?
Merlin: Is that what you get?
Merlin: Do you get a comfort worker for that?
Merlin: No, no.
Merlin: I think if you.
Merlin: Oh, I thought that was a euphemism for butt stuff.
John: No, no, no.
John: Well, that could be.
John: I mean, there are people out there who are like, oh, yeah, backyard cabin.
John: Oh, my God.
Merlin: They're piling up those logs.
John: Yeah.
John: It's not airtight, but it sure is cozy back there.
John: No, I think a lot of people are realizing that what they need in their marriage is a backyard cabin.
John: They put a cabin in the backyard.
John: Oh, sure.
John: Little mini house.
John: Like a mom shed.
John: Yeah, whoever it is that needs to use it like, oh, that's my yoga.
John: Oh, that's such a good idea.
John: Or that's my little.
Merlin: I agree.
Merlin: I mean, that's my office in some ways.
Merlin: I know that is your office.
John: Can you imagine if all of your Wilber forces had to be in the house?
John: It would be untenable.
Merlin: It wouldn't work, right?
Merlin: Here's the question.
Merlin: And so when somebody's, I mean, just like jokes aside for a sec, somebody's having a bad day.
Merlin: And you ask them which of the three H's they want.
Merlin: You say, do you want to be helped?
Merlin: Do you want to be heard?
Merlin: Or do you want to be hugged?
Merlin: Helped.
Merlin: So you come in.
Merlin: Here's you.
Merlin: And then the person says, do you want to be helped?
Merlin: It's cool.
Merlin: I'm making a little timeout with my hands right here.
Merlin: Say, do you want to be helped, do you want to be heard, or do you want to be hugged?
Merlin: Helped, heard, or hugged.
Merlin: And that gives you the opportunity to say, I almost never, just spoiler alert, I almost never say helped.
Merlin: Here's the thing.
Merlin: I very rarely want to be helped when I'm in a mood.
Merlin: There are times when I very much would love to just be hugged.
Merlin: But sometimes I just want to be heard.
Merlin: And it's not that I'm complaining about, like, I'm not saying like, you know, you're a wife and you have to listen to me.
Merlin: I'm a husband.
Merlin: No, but it's more like, do you want solutions for how to get out of this?
Merlin: Do you just want me to pat your head?
Merlin: Or do you want to just talk for a while and have me not give you any advice?
Merlin: Three, please.
Merlin: Just listen to me and don't give me advice.
Merlin: And then give me cues where you say stuff like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
Merlin: Right?
Merlin: And where I know, you know, for quiet life, where I know that you're listening to me.
Merlin: And no matter what, do not give me advice.
Merlin: Do not tell me, do not say things like, why don't you just ellipsis.
Merlin: Never say that.
Merlin: Especially if I just asked to be hugged.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: Right.
Merlin: I do.
Merlin: Do you see anything useful in that?
John: Helped hurt or hugged?
John: It's very useful.
John: And, you know, I had a kind of profound exchange last night.
John: where I was, I said, oh, okay, I'll give you the whole story.
John: We were downstairs about to watch TV and I had said, let's watch SpongeBob.
John: And I got a resounding chorus of no's.
John: And I was like, well, you guys have never watched SpongeBob and it's actually pretty good.
John: Very good show.
John: And they said, boo.
John: And I was like, well, listen, since I have the remote control, I'm just going to give you 10 minutes of SpongeBob and you can punch out at any time.
John: And they still said boo, but I was like, here we go.
John: And we watched 10 minutes of SpongeBob.
John: And I'll tell you, they were... The little one, at least, was drawn in.
John: But she was encouraged by her naughty bits mother to say boo at the end.
John: And I was like, okay, that's fine.
John: That's fine.
John: We're not gonna... We don't have to keep going.
John: I just wanted 10 minutes.
John: And then, instead of switching over to what they were chiming out for, which was a bunch of dumb stuff, I said...
John: He said, now you're going to get, here's what you didn't expect.
John: You didn't see this coming.
John: Now you're going to get 10 minutes of Ren and Stimpy.
John: Which neither of them had ever seen.
John: And I gave him the first 10 minutes of Ren and Stimpy.
John: Well, that must be pretty wild out of context.
John: And for me and what I did not expect, because I thought I was going to sit through the first 10 minutes of Ren and Stimpy, because I tried to show her South Park and the first 10 minutes of South Park, I was like, well, yeah.
John: And I tried to show her the first 10 minutes of Family Guy and I was like, yeah, I've liked Family Guy a lot at times in my life, but I wouldn't waste a shot on that.
John: That's the thing.
John: So I'm like, here's five minutes or here's 10 minutes of Ren and Stimpy.
John: And I was laughing so hard.
John: That show was so weird.
John: I don't know why it got to me so bad, but I'm just sitting there tears streaming down my face until my kid looks over and goes, I'm not watching the show.
John: I'm just watching you watch the show.
John: And I was like, yeah, this is it somehow.
John: I don't know why.
John: Daddy's got the remote.
John: But then her mother looks at me and says, would you get me a toothpick?
John: And I said, in my inimitable style, what do we got down here?
John: We got four living beings.
John: We got me, the oldest, the patriarch.
John: We got you who's under this family blanket that I bought you two Christmases ago that weighs like 600 pounds.
John: So you can't get up.
John: We've got a cat that's useless.
John: And then we have a 13-year-old whose limbs are flexible, who's got all the energy.
Merlin: She can probably just stand up anytime she wants and it won't hurt.
Merlin: And so I'm the one you ask for a toothpick?
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Let us send.
John: Haven't we?
Merlin: At long last, haven't we evolved in this situation?
Merlin: Haven't we learned?
Merlin: Is there somebody else that would be better at getting a toothpick here?
Merlin: But you were specifically charged with that.
John: The two of us sitting down here, I would get up and get you a toothpick in a heartbeat.
John: But three of us hit the bricks, kid.
John: And she starts with this teenager like, and then here comes the next wrinkle.
John: The one under the heavy blanket says, I'll make cookies if you go get me a toothpick.
John: Now, I don't know how, if she's going to make cookies, oh, she says, go get a toothpick and turn the oven on preheat.
John: Okay, now that is hot.
Merlin: Seriously, that's, okay, that's different.
John: Okay, all right, all right.
Merlin: Dim all the lights, sweet darling.
John: So then I say to the little one, these are both things you can do.
John: Go get a toothpick and turn the oven on 350.
John: And she thinks she's being clever.
John: And she's like, oh, but I'm laying me and the cat.
John: And so I stand up to go.
John: I'm like, all right, it's me.
John: But I'll tell you what, if I go up there and get the toothpick and turn the oven on,
John: You, little one, are not getting any cookies.
John: And now I turn immediately into Bean Dad.
Merlin: I wasn't going to say anything.
John: No cookies to you.
John: Here's Bean Dad.
John: I'm globally famous for this.
John: And then she jumps up like, wait a minute.
John: And I was like, oh, now you're up.
John: And she's like, no.
John: And I'm like, I can't believe she'd even buy that.
John: I could see her saying, you're not, you're not allowed to cookie ban me.
John: Well, because she's in that age.
John: She's right in between.
John: If she was one year older, she'd be like, go screw yourself.
John: Yeah.
John: And I'm so then I'm on the stairs and I'm like, look, I, you know, you guys got me up.
John: I'm old.
John: I, you know, it took, you saw how long it took me to get up out of this couch, but I'm on the stairs now.
John: So no cookies for anybody.
John: For me, getting up now has steps.
Merlin: Not steps as in like one stands on, but as in like, no, but like I have to like, it's like if I want to get up from laying on the floor, which makes me feel good sometimes, it's like a four-step process.
Merlin: You know what I'm saying?
Merlin: It's not as simple.
Merlin: I don't just bounce up, you know, and just like, oh, that's okay.
Merlin: I got it.
Merlin: You know, I got to get up and that's like a whole thing and you couldn't have done that.
John: So I'm on the stairs and now all of a sudden she's right on my coattails.
John: Let me do it.
John: And I'm like, you had a chance to do it on your own accord.
John: Now you're just doing it because I'm being dadding you.
John: And she's like, and then a teenage switch flips and she loses it.
John: No, like just loses it.
John: Oh, geez.
John: I'm sorry.
John: that's okay because this is but this is new this is new for us like she's just gone across the line where suddenly emotions just hit her like a wall yeah and she doesn't know she's not sure why that's very it's it can be both very just to really state the obvious both very sudden and very overwhelming overwhelming right that's that's what happens
John: And I big brother her sometimes with this kind of like, well, then you're not going to... And it's all fun and games, right?
John: I'm not actually trying to deprive her of food or ruin her life or tease her to death or anything.
John: This is just like the dynamic...
John: and obviously to those listening who already know this because you're all listening still i'm never gonna deprive her of a cookie but this is the this is the game we play like why wouldn't you sometimes the cookies come with a side of razin yeah why wouldn't you have gotten up when your old man was was like now you're now you're you know but she loses it she goes way past
Merlin: Did she say hurtful things?
John: Well, no, but she's just, you know, she's like a Tasmanian devil.
John: Like she's under attack.
John: And I go up and I get her mother a toothpick and I turn the oven on.
John: But in the midst, she's followed me up the stairs in the midst of a...
John: hurricane of her just like having every kind of, you know, it's just, it's literally under the blanket handling this.
John: She's under the blanket.
John: I'm sure as soon as we were out of the room, she opened her phone and was watching some kind of fashion show.
John: Instagram account, you know, the world has gone bananas.
John: There's no, there's no, there's no baseline.
John: There's always something new.
John: You don't need to see.
John: It's always insane.
John: It's always insane, right?
Merlin: She's just under the blanket.
John: I'm not even sure.
Merlin: I do that.
Merlin: When I, when I get to a point where like I've said something and have been ignored three different times, I will just crane my head over and go, what you reading?
Merlin: And, of course, it's invariably something about somebody who was shot by their own dog or something.
Merlin: You're looking at sad Twitter?
Merlin: Yeah, I'm looking at sad Twitter.
John: Yeah, somebody's doing an impression of their mom.
John: I wish it was that lighthearted.
John: Anyway, so now I'm in the kitchen, and she's just tearing around.
John: And I haven't, according to her mother, her mother's seen this a couple of times.
John: But I have not actually seen it.
John: Which is just like, and believe me, of all the people in this conversation, the one who has been hit with waves of unmanageable emotion, it's this guy here, right?
John: Like, I see red or I see blue or I see purple, and I lose friends every other day, right, with the emails I send in the middle.
John: Anyway, so away she goes.
John: And I don't know, you know, I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but I'm definitely like, wow.
John: And so she storms around and doors are slamming and all this stuff.
John: It's about this toothpick and cookie.
John: And so, and I'm, you know, and I'm kind of, I am, I'm not laughing nervously, I'm kind of generally, like genuinely laughing.
Merlin: You must feel, I've had experiences like this, and my description of that would be, I feel a little unsteady.
Merlin: Like, ooh, this is kind of a lot right now.
John: it's a lot but you know what i mean like you first you feel like a little bit like on your back back on your heels a little bit like oh this is oh okay that seems kind of like escalated a little bit and i learned a long time ago you can't manage anybody you just have to you know let it fly yeah so i'm like well i've done my job and i go back downstairs and i hand the toothpick over to the to the true master of of reality and
John: And, you know, storming and slamming and so forth coming from upstairs.
John: And I sit back down.
John: I got Ren and Stimpy paused.
John: And then I hear from upstairs a plaintiff.
John: And now this is going to get emotional here for everybody listening.
John: I hear a plaintiff, help me.
John: And I'm like, what?
John: And then I hear it again.
John: And the one under the blanket goes, go help her.
John: And I'm like, help me.
John: And so I jump up and I run upstairs and she's there and she's lying on the floor.
John: And I go in, or I go up to her and I sit down on the floor with her and she says, I don't know what's happening.
John: Now, she's already, with that,
John: she's already 25 years more advanced than I was.
John: Yeah.
Merlin: Like, I could not have... I know, from every angle, I feel like I know exactly what you mean.
Merlin: Where, like, there's that sense of, like, to fancy term, like a metacognition, where you're like, you know, it took me so many years to be able to detach emotions from reality or from whatever.
Merlin: I'm not saying that's what her thing was, but, like, she caught herself...
Merlin: I mean, the way I would phrase it, I wouldn't say this to her, but she caught herself not understanding why she's who she is right now.
John: And able to ask for help from across the house and then say, I don't know what's happening.
John: And so I sat there and I said, well, look,
John: There's the world.
John: And I knocked on the wall with my knuckle and I said, there's the world.
John: Here's the world.
John: And up until now, all of your emotions, which have been strong, have been connected to this, the world.
John: Things happen to you.
John: Knock, knock, knock.
John: Here's the wall.
Merlin: Yeah, sort of the outside world acts upon you, sort of.
John: But now, a door has opened and you...
John: are getting, for the first time, access to the emotional world, which is not at all connected to this wall.
Merlin: And it's, I mean, just, this is useless to say in the moment, but, like, I don't want to go as far as to say it's irrational, but the world of emotions cannot be counted upon to be rational or to be commensurate with whatever caused it.
Merlin: And that takes a lot of practice to learn and do something about it.
John: And I said to her, because then she says, I'm out of control.
John: I can't control.
John: Oh, fuck.
John: And I said, the thing is, none of us can.
John: And people talk about controlling their emotions.
John: But once that door is open, nobody can control what's in there.
John: None of us understand it.
John: And the ones that are like kumbaya and think they do and think they can and try and tell you about it, forget it.
John: They've just gotten better at faking it.
John: Here's what happens.
John: That door's open and you see it, and then you do exactly what you just did, which is feel it, maybe lose it, but then do those two things that you did.
John: Ask for help and then say, I don't know what I'm doing.
John: And that is all any of us can do.
John: So you're not crazy.
John: You're the sanest person in the house.
John: and i couldn't believe that i don't know i i didn't teach her i don't know whether it's in the air or what but for her to have done those two things you know like the freaking out the thing is the freaking out i never did because i couldn't freak out in my home when you get trauma not traumatized but when something bad happens to you it seems like you very much turn inward
Merlin: I've seen it a handful of times and it's, and I recognize it in the same way.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Like, but the thing is, it's not like you become unemotional.
Merlin: It's just like you're swallowing something and you're practically like shaking.
John: Yeah.
John: There's a dragon in me and my eyes go milky white.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Right?
Merlin: But there was no... It's not an ex... Like, one time you and I had a really bad fight.
Merlin: I just don't really understand why the fight happened.
Merlin: But we had a really bad fight one time at your house, one of the few times.
Merlin: And I think it was really hard on both of us.
Merlin: Yeah, it was.
Merlin: And because, you know, we're different people and, you know, you have the home court advantage.
Merlin: But also, like, I just remember, like, I don't think I'd ever seen you like that.
Merlin: But, you know, I feel like we were standing maybe over by your staircase, kind of over by the door at the whole place.
Merlin: And I just remember, like, feeling like...
Merlin: almost like a whooshing sound, like, like suddenly the world was like sucked into you and you became very intense, but not like demonstrative.
Merlin: It was really like you were doing everything you could to like bound it in somehow or other is what it felt like to me.
John: I think that's all I was ever able to do, you know, and certainly could not have said anything about help or let alone say to somebody like now, and this is going to be a very boring thing to say at this juncture in our old lives.
Merlin: But rather than say to somebody, hey, time out.
Merlin: I don't like the tone you're taking with me right now.
Merlin: I don't know if you know that that's a tone, but that's not a tone like knowing you friend to friend or whatever, right?
Merlin: Where instead you do a timeout and you go like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's bracket this for a minute.
Merlin: What's happening right now?
Merlin: Or you argue the way people argue when they're like high school sweethearts, which is just everything is an end of the universe screaming match that's all outward, you know, directed.
Merlin: But there are places in between, but you don't discover that until it's been visited upon you enough that you have practiced, rehearsed, noticed it often enough to do something about it, hopefully wholesome, right?
Merlin: But there are people who that's all they've got is I'm the nicest guy in the world until I'm a fucking lunatic.
John: Well, there's only been two people in my life that I can think of that I was lucky enough to date.
John: one of whom i didn't i didn't get along with at all i didn't we we had almost nothing in common but i went to that place one time where where there was well no the other i mean i never oh the inside place yeah but like to the point where where up my fingertips were shaking and she came over and put a hand on me like a like a a gentle
John: And she'd been screaming at me a second before, but she saw the, she saw me, you know, and I think you said it really well.
John: Like the whole world goes in.
John: And she just put a hand on me and I didn't know what to do because I guess nobody had ever done it.
Merlin: I mean, that very subtle thing that that person did is, first of all, very subtle.
Merlin: But also like that puts you in kind of weird position because now you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Merlin: Like this is not, you know what I mean?
Merlin: Like this is not lining up.
Merlin: One thought would be, hey, party foul.
Merlin: You're not allowed to touch me in a nice way while we're arguing.
Merlin: Like that's confusing to me.
John: yeah but it but it did she ebbed me right she took i don't know whether it felt like she took a couple leagues off but she did you know and i was just like well i was shaking a second ago uh and now i'm not and so i'm
John: you know i i have always known that my little one was going to be an emotional person because she always was but now that she's really feeling emotions for the first time and she's only on the she's only on the deck of the aircraft carrier right she's not she hasn't tried to take a b-25 off and go you know avenge pearl harbor
Merlin: Well, it's just not in other kinds of situations.
Merlin: I can't say, but I mean, it's not like a Carrie kind of situation where that happened in front of the whole lunchroom or something.
John: No, right.
John: She's testing it out in a safe environment.
Merlin: Yeah, I wasn't going to say it earlier, but I mean, I've said this about a lot of things, including things that are really important about my kid, which is like sometimes...
Merlin: When you're confused about how to respond to something, before you get really weird about your preferences and demands, consider the vulnerability of that person telling you who they are.
Merlin: And when somebody tells you who they are, in my Angelo sense or whatever, but no, when somebody's like in my case that you can probably infer on a couple occasions, hey, this is who I am, just FYI.
Merlin: And I...
Merlin: It was so emotionally overwhelming for me in a way that, I don't know, that one of the things I walked away with was like, God, you're so fucking brave to tell me who you are.
Merlin: And it doesn't have to be about giant, giant, giant things.
Merlin: Sometimes, I know maybe your kid's a little old for this, but a lot of times when your kid's being an asshole, it's because they feel safe testing stuff on you.
Merlin: Whether that's their new Fonzie haircut, or a catchphrase, or a way of suddenly becoming arbitrarily very emotional about things, maybe even sometimes on purpose.
Merlin: But they're not going to try that in the lunchroom.
Merlin: They can't.
Merlin: In the lunchroom, there's going to be the whooshing sound and everything going inside.
Merlin: But a blow-up, in some ways...
Merlin: I don't know.
Merlin: I'm talking out of my ass, but I just always feel like another way to reframe of those very uncomfortable situations is to realize, yeah, you know, maybe things are getting real and maybe things are changing, but also maybe that person on some level, neither of us realizes we trust each other enough to be like this in front of each other.
John: Well, and what we've been doing, she and I lately have been, she's been testing out whether or not she can, whether or not she can sneer at me.
John: Is this kind of related to the top?
Merlin: Oh, a little bit.
Merlin: That was a little bit of testing, too.
Merlin: That was a little bit of like, well, let's get up to date on how much you two compare notes and who I can depend on and who I can play a little bit.
John: Yeah, there's been a lot.
John: There's been a lot of like, and I said to her the other day, I was like, you've been fighting against things that aren't optional.
John: And the problem with that is you're fighting against something that there's just, it's, it's your reality.
John: It's not, you cannot change these aspects.
Merlin: And so talk about the external load bearing walls of reality versus how you feel about things.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: For instance, it's just like, look, we have, we have resolved this cell phone issue.
Merlin: So it could be something like we're not going to buy a gun.
Merlin: We're not going to buy season tickets to the Seahawks.
Merlin: Or is it more like this is why we cross the street this way?
Merlin: Like what level are we talking about?
John: No, it's mostly like you don't necessarily want to be on the swim team.
John: And frankly, I don't want to take you to swimming four nights a week, but swimming in all of my consultations with all of the professional adults who deal with 13 year olds is the best possible thing you could do with that time.
John: And so we have determined that we are doing it and it's not a punishment.
John: We're not, we're not punishing you for anything.
John: This is just our reality, which is that if you were like, I want to play volleyball and I said, no, you have to swim.
John: then that would be a conversation.
John: But what you're saying is I want to read comic books and not do any exercise.
John: It's going to swimming versus everything else.
John: It's going to swimming versus it.
John: And so if you're going to, if you're going to resist, if you're going to be furious, pick another thing.
John: All you can do with swimming is either.
Merlin: You really are the son of a lawyer because you're kind of saying make a case that's something that we can adjudicate rather than something that really truly is settled law.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: Find the thing that you can fight where you might win.
Merlin: Yeah.
Merlin: That's really something.
Merlin: When I was a teenager, I did not like being told things like that at all.
John: Yeah.
John: You know, like there are so many things.
John: But the thing is, you can't win this.
John: There's no.
John: So all you're doing is making yourself unhappy.
John: You're making us unhappy with just your reaction to reality.
John: It's like cursing the rain.
John: It's like shaking your fist at the clouds.
John: But we've been having a few of those where I'm like, hey, where's your backpack?
John: And she's like, I don't know.
John: And I'm like, okay, now that is a thing that I know you feel that you can do.
John: In some ways it's about the backpack, but in a lot of ways it's about being asked about the backpack.
Merlin: Yeah, it's 100%, right, about being asked about that.
Merlin: I mean, I know that seems very obvious, but those are the kinds of things that are so subtle, but I do feel like it's worth mentioning, right?
Merlin: Sometimes it's really not, this is not, and that's why I say, you know, helped her or hugged.
Merlin: Like, what is the thing that's at issue here?
Merlin: Is this really an issue of like, I think you're dumb because you don't know how to backpack?
Merlin: And it's like, no, I just, I'm tired of, I'm just tired of you making demands on me about things, right?
Merlin: Like that's a pretty normal response.
John: It's very normal.
John: But what I'm saying is for the next 10 years,
John: We're not going to live in a world where when I ask you where your backpack is, that's where you go.
John: Like, I'm not going to be somebody who's in a house with somebody that doesn't have just a standard answer for that.
John: All I'm asking is where's the backpack?
John: Because we're about to leave the house and we need the backpack.
John: This is not a time when you and I are going to work out how you feel about being asked for things.
John: And we're, you know, we're navigating that, right?
John: That's a thing where it's like, I'm not.
John: It's hard for both of you because you're both doing things that don't come naturally to you.
John: But what I'm saying is I'm not going to hear slamming doors in my house.
John: That's just not how I'm going to live.
John: And so that just requires that we make that not a thing.
John: That is not a way.
John: That's not part of our language.
John: That's not how you're going to communicate with me.
John: But the idea of this emotional world being, because what she didn't do when she was sitting on the floor was say, why didn't you just give me the cookie?
John: Why didn't you, you know, why did you have to do that?
Merlin: A more classic kind of cool down response where we both realized that that was a little more heated than it needed to be.
Merlin: But now it's still a thing, but we need to like work it out.
John: Yeah, and that would have been a child-like, that would have been her last year.
John: That would have been what a child does.
Merlin: That on its own would be so much more than you can expect from a lot of people who just want to dig in further about the emotion.
John: I think that's right.
John: And I think that I was getting used to then our conversation being like, well, you know I was teasing and you know that, you know, and we would be talking about that.
John: She didn't do any of that.
John: she was in a completely different place which was she went right to the mattresses in terms of like raw she was like i'm out of control i have no idea i'm sorry man well no that must have been no but i mean that must have been so difficult for her it was but i think coming out the other side where where where i was at least saying in my experience as as a person
John: um that out of controlness isn't it isn't nuts you know you're not off the charts like this is what happens when that door opens and it and you know you you because i'm just kind of quietly trying to say in the most low-key way possible is and you know this won't be the last time
Merlin: Well, aren't you kind of trying to say like, you know, this, I'm glad we're working this out.
Merlin: I'm glad we're talking and you know, you've let me in on this, but like, I, unfortunately this will not, this is far from the last time that something like this will happen on some level.
John: That's right.
John: And you're going to, and what I'm saying is none of the people you see that seem in control their emotions actually are what they're doing.
John: I mean, very few of them.
John: Mm-hmm.
Merlin: It's not control.
Merlin: That isn't the word.
Merlin: Not in a mindful way.
Merlin: Sometimes it's basically just the equivalent of a life hack where you've learned, like, oh, well, I'll just let that harm my self-esteem a little more and move on.
Merlin: And, you know, you don't want that.
Merlin: Yeah, well, you don't.
Merlin: And that's why I do use and love that word wholesome a lot.
Merlin: It doesn't feel wholesome for that to be the thing you figured out that will help you make it through the next day.
Merlin: But that doesn't, I mean, Jesus, we're all such broken pottery, John.
Merlin: And, like, none of us are 100% on anything.
John: I've been trying to learn the difference between control and management.
John: Because I think a lot of people think those two words are the same.
John: And trying to control things.
Merlin: That's actually really good.
John: Yeah, because controlling things, you can't, really.
Merlin: But can you manage things?
Merlin: And if you're struggling at all to see that distinction, which I imagine most people are not, think about bosses you've had.
Merlin: I've taken that even further in my own meanderings of like there's really a difference between not just a linguistic or semiotic difference, but there's a difference between a boss –
Merlin: a leader, a boss, a leader, a manager, or in that case, just a straight up controller of some kind.
Merlin: And if you think those all sound like more or less the same thing, well, think about somebody who's figured out how to motivate a team without having to control the team.
Merlin: which is very rare and difficult in my experience to find somebody who's, especially at a young age, who's good at that, is to learn like, and it's not just like you're like trying to control people like a fucking Svengali, but like people who are young and think that a boss, a manager, or a leader are all the same thing will think that they can just push every rope for the rest of their life and get the result that they want rather than understanding like, well, first of all, A, you could be really fucking wrong.
Merlin: You're not old enough to be that confident.
Yeah.
Merlin: You'll never be old enough to be that confident.
Merlin: But also, there are other methods.
Merlin: When you think about management, think about guiding.
Merlin: Think about a bouncer, or in my case, a project manager.
Merlin: I used to say, as a project manager, I'm like a bouncer.
Merlin: We're like, my hand is floating between your shoulder blades.
Merlin: I'm not really exactly pushing you, but I am making sure we keep walking toward the door.
Merlin: Because my job is to take this whole team through that doorway.
Merlin: And as long as we're walking toward that door, this is much more aggressive than it needs to sound, but I think you take my meaning.
Merlin: It's true for bouncers.
Merlin: It's true.
Merlin: No bouncer wants to like get hit or hit somebody, but they do have a job to do, which is to get that person through the door.
Merlin: And as long as we're moving toward the door, it's not a problem.
Merlin: We can even have slight little, like maybe you want to yell at somebody for a second, but we're still going to keep, you know what I mean?
Merlin: That's a kind of, that's managing more than controlling.
John: And for me to turn that metaphor into my own emotions and say, you're not trying to grab your emotion by the scruff of the neck and push them out the door.
John: You've got a hand between its shoulder blades.
John: And the emotions may be yelling at all the bouncers as it goes, but you're just gently, not even pushing it, not even touching it, but just pushing it with the energy of your palm.
Merlin: If you watch this way the Secret Service hovers around people at public events, Kamala Harris has this amazing Secret Service woman now that I'm a little bit obsessed with, who's so good at exactly what you're talking about.
Merlin: Where she's so good, she's eyeballing everything all the time.
Merlin: And she really does have her hand hovering right near where her hand might need to do any of several different things, including let's get moving.
Merlin: But it also could be, I just heard a shot.
Merlin: Like that hand that's not touching you right now could be put in the service of so many different things.
Merlin: But the best thing I can do as a manager...
Merlin: as against a controller is to keep that hand hovering and being a person who can have eyes on lots of different things that you aren't looking at.
Merlin: And that hand never needs to touch you as long as things keep going the right way.
Merlin: I, I feel like kind of.
John: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
John: Well, and, and talking about it in terms of like the door to a separate, you're now in a four dimensional,
John: And the fourth dimension is emotion.
John: And you weren't in it before.
Merlin: Which is not measured in leagues at this point.
John: That's right.
John: You're 60,000 leagues under an ocean of emotion.
John: Is that a Billy Squires song?
John: And what do you do?
John: You can't control it.
John: You can only...
John: and you can't even manage it all you can only manage a few things and one of those is don't scream about cookies in the lunchroom at school you can do it here and not and and it's not great but it's it's not the end of the world
John: And I need to learn it too.
John: I need to learn it myself.
John: You know, I need to find that hand and I need to recognize that I can't control that world either.
John: And that I'm.
Merlin: I mean, like we're at that point in the conversation where somebody like you or me would say something at the end to go like, and just to show you, I'm really cool.
Merlin: I'm aware of like how I need to change too.
Merlin: But no, seriously, this is you're getting the uncut shit from John and Merlin right now, which is, at least for myself, and I'm pretty sure for you, this is very real.
Merlin: Like, I have no desire to be the mast to which I cause things to be lashed in my life.
Merlin: I do not, I'm not here to be like that old granite head in New Hampshire.
Merlin: I'm not here to be this immovable thing by which you can suddenly gauge the success of your life by how well you're hewing to my demands about the world.
Merlin: I've never wanted to be like that in any of my good adulthood.
Merlin: But I've really learned that over time, which is like, holy shit, have I got a lot to learn.
Merlin: And not just that bullshit like, oh, I learn more from my cats than I do from people.
Merlin: But like, no, like I have to change.
Merlin: I really do have to change too.
Merlin: And why wouldn't I?
Merlin: Why wouldn't I lavish some of that improvement on myself in the same way that I demand it be hosed on children?
Right.
Merlin: That's a terrible album, by the way.
Merlin: Remember Hosed on Children?
Merlin: Uh-huh.
Merlin: They play classical songs in disco style.
Merlin: I don't have a joke here.
Merlin: I just wanted to break the tension.
Merlin: Uh-huh.
Merlin: Uh-huh.
Merlin: God damn it.
God damn it.
Merlin: I don't know if that's anything.